Is Yamaha taking down all other Arrangers One By One ....little by little.....

....With the release of Tyros 4 it sure looks like that ...or is there something sneaking up soon we don't know about yet?

Hi Donny. The truth is Yamaha delivers, it works. The styles are there, the OS is incredible. I'm adjusting things on the fly all the time and it's easy. I get the drums to sound great. It meets all of my needs. I was a Roland man for years but the Yamaha really does the job I need done. Enough said. Merry Christmas to all!!!

Joe

Donny,

Thats what I thought, I think you might be right.

Time alone will tell!

I am waiting for Wersi Wing and look at the way they are perfoming again, Yamaha just take it in their stride, get on with it while the other play about with it, how long do you think Wersi will last this time will be the question, not how good will the KB be.

[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 12-22-2010).]

this is just nonsense Donny. There has to be something more substantial to talk about than to start this kind of thread surely???

Yamaha haters will will always scoff at the thought....and all opinions are substantially prevailing, even over riding the 76 key obstacles. But I think the topic title is something to really something to take notice of.

I must be reading an entirely different message for I can't see where Spalding spews out his hatred for Yamaha.

Why even wait to see what Korg will come up with at NAMM? Doubt must be setting in.

------------------
Bo pen nyang

there is no hatred there Donny. I love yamaha arrangers just like i love Korg. But this thread is just an invition to piss !!

You know it, i know it EVERY BODY KNOWS IT.

So why do it ?

Come on mate. Synthzone has turned a page now and there is no benefit to anyone in going backwards to the bad old days.

No offense intended.

Seems to me the only ones that have a probl;em with the topic are you & that other guy....

Be prepared to be blown away...in a few weeks time

Comon Dennis what's all this about, not T4 could it be MS, or PA????

I hope your right Dennis..somthings gotta give ...I'm glad I have the patience to wait it out.

No question that Yamaha in the main player in the arranger market. The other players ( don't include Korg here) are faulting no because T4 is the "Best Ever" , but because their own incompetence.

Although it might feel great to Yamaha fans, it's always a good thing to have competition...it forces companies to keep up" and we, the user, always benefit.

Losing Roland isn't a good thing, in my view...it was Roland, with their E-20, that forced Yamaha and Korg into improving their arrangers.

Also, there's one less choice...not everyone likes Yamaha's smooth CD-like sound...Roland had a more "live" sound that was appreciated by many players.

I hope they re-enter the market, although the prognosis doesn't look good.

I'm still waiting for my Tyros4...hopefully it will arrive before the Tyros5 introduction.

Ian the Impatient

The merrier the days, the grouchier some get.LOL

That "other guy" happens to have a ... and a ...

Learn to read what's actually being said instead of making false accusations. Oh, right, English isn't your native tongue.

------------------
Bo pen nyang

Great post Ian and so true.....all this Yamaha hoopla will change very soon
Some people on here are so insecure

I don't get it? Which other arrangers they take down? Ketron is still there, Roland is still there, Korg is still there,Wersi is still there,Casio is still there,Medeli is still there and proberly a few I forget are still there.

You're right,Frans.

The only insecure one here is the OP. All he wants is to cause controversy and then make up things which have never been said.

Really, where did Spalding and myself say anything that's anti-Yamaha? Once again, stop making silly accusations and learn to read what's actually being said.

------------------
Bo pen nyang

Well, I'll chime in ... I just opened up my S-910, and the voice processor is actually worse than I remembered. I am SO spoiled by the TC unit in my pa800, I might not keep this thing. I have a different plan in mind, so I won't be hasty, but if i played out as much as I used to, I could NEVER use the 910 as a standalone voice processor. The tones are good, the rhythms are what I expected, the keys still feel the same (spongy)... and I can't get it to play any of the MP3 files that my Korg plays ... I guess I have to actually READ the darn book for change Grrrrr!

Head to head:

Sound: edge Korg
rhythms: edge Yamaha
speaker power: edge Korg
vocal effects: edge Korg
O/S: edge Yamaha

Nothing has changed between these two powerhouses since I was more active on the zone a few years ago. I WANT to like this 910, but I have my standards to think of ( voice ). I'll post more after I actually use the darn thing, but my priority was always vocals first, and the Korg has that nailed. I'll try my standalone VP using the stereo inputs into the s910 and see if the speakers can even handle the power. Fingers crossed.
PC aside - Merry Christmas! (that's what I celebrate, and I love to share the joy I feel!)

I don't think they (Yamaha) actually "took down" any other arrangers, but I'm pretty sure that Roland is out of it entirely, unless you count the VIMA instruments.

Roland's drop out was mainly self-inflicted by poor marketing, and therefore there wasn't enough arranger profits to finance R&D for new features.

I think Korg is very much still in the game.

You getting another Korg?

Ian

Dave merry Xmas .......maybe you should of waited for the new S Series unit out in a few weeks at NAMM? or KORG?

David, why did you buy the S910? I'm sure Donny has told you much about the vocal processor...enough to let you know it hasn't changed since the PSR-3000 you had some time ago.

It might have been better to wait for the S910's replacement, which might have the new VH2 that is in the Tyros4.

If vocals are your real priority, you might be best served by using an outboard processor...the 910's isn't going to ring any bells for you, I don't think.

Merry Christmas to you too, buddy, and may you be around for many more.

Ian

Dave,
S900, or 910 works great with TC Helicon Harmony M module.
What annoys me most about the Yamaha harmonizer is that it interrupts the lead voice each time it is engaged or disengaged.
You can make it SOUND o.k. with some tweaking, but you can't get around that on/off problem. You have to be certain you aren't singing when you hit the foot switch to turn it off or on. Also there is no light to indicate when it is on, at least on the 900.
The one in T4 doesn't have that problem btw, so maybe the replacement for S910 won't either.
A Merry Christmas to you,my OLD friend!
DonM

Yup - the issue with shuts offs is MAJOR, Don. I might have to return this thing. I wonder just how long it will be before the new ones actually hit the streets?
I'm having too much fun playing with my Nord right now to be upset about this Yamaha, but I do need to address this pretty soon - thanx everyone for the input!

David...why did you get an S910?

Wouldn't the Nord fit well with your PA-800?

Ian

Hi Ian,

I was planning on buying the Casio CTK 7000 but for the same money I could get a roland GW8 from 9 months old so yesterday I bought the GW8 the European version this time. I don't know if Roland stop making arrangers but the Prelude and the especially the GW8 are very popular here in the Benelux and still available in the shops. Yes I probably gonna buy a new Korg but first see what they will come with

Merry Christmas Ian and everybody on this forum

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 12-23-2010).]

Hi Frans,

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought Roland recently discontinued the GW-8 and Prelude...I'm sure there are probably lots left in stock...I thought the VIMA instruments were the only ones with arranger type features, although, I believe some of their stage pianos have some sort of accompaniment.

Maybe someone else can clarify what's happening?

How do you like the GW-8? Is it a good companion to your PA-500?

Ian

The biggest surprise at NAMM even better then a new Roland TOTL arranger would be the re-Introduction of TECHNICS back to the market place with the new KN8000

Ian,
The Korg had an issue with the touch screen after a slight bump in a very cold parking lot, and although it was an easy fix (a wire popped off)... I lost a little faith in it. It's 2 yers old and I was restless, and since I no longer depend on music as my sole living, I wanted to try another setup ... I see now that I already have the best one for my needs. I'll just have to be a little more careful when I'm unloading the car in winter! lol
Honestly - side by side, these two are not even in the same ballpark as far as power or vocals. Instrumentally, they stack up pretty even, but the speakers in the Korg, and the TC VP are worlds ahead of anything I've heard so far. I'm sure the new mega-million dollar T4 is better than this unit, but I still haven't heard a better VP than a TC.

Looks like I need to make a return BEFORE Christmas this year! Sigh ...

oh well, you aren't the first to find out you already had the ideal rig...and, it will help you to keep from straying in the future.

That can happen with relationships, too (said ruefully, with the voice of experience)

I would have thought Donny would have warned you that the vocal harmonizer might not have been what you were used to...at least you can make a return, so it hasn't really cost you anything.

I've done things like that myself...it's an education.

Have a good Christmas.

Ian

Donny, you post too much and you are too opinionated... You know the Casio $79 keyboard rules, get over yourself......

ROTFLMAO

You're so insecure!

------------------
Bo pen nyang

Here's an alternative view.

Is Yamaha greatly to blame for the demise of the Arranger market and it's clear and obvious decline compared to the work they and others do on Workstations.

They obviously built the Tyros 4 (and previous models) with the older gentleman in mind which is why they are so easy to operate, and equally as popular with people in this age bracket. The flip side to that however is the clear lack of interest from younger generations, and the clear and obvious decline of the Arranger market overall.

(My next comment is not a pi$$ing contest... just an alternative view.)

KORG on the other hand are the only ones trying to do the complete opposite. Their Arranger keyboards are just as technically advanced as their Workstations in many ways and are aimed at a very broad spectrum of users young and old. They also adapt their products to certain markets which is why Eastern music is pretty much entirely dominated by KORG Arrangers at this point.

It's only food for though guys. Don't take anything I'm saying too serious.

Regards
James

Sting thanx for ruining my christmas


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-24-2010).]

You know, that's partly true! I ruined my marriage, I put on all the weight I lost a few years ago, I got careless and dropped my favorite keyboard, and to top it all off - Ford recalled my Windstar for a cracked rear axel and it's going to take 3 MONTHS to fix! I'm stuck in a Taurus for the rest of winter - no room for my stuff, my daughters can't drive it because they're under 25, and I'm going out of my mind trying to get the stinkin' seat adjusted to be comfy! I LOVED that car ... had it for 8 years - longest I ever had a new car, and it was paid off for the last 3 years ... that's a treat too!

So, yes - I'm insecure a little, but believe me ... I'm not so far gone that I will take this s910 to a paying job. It's going back in the box today. I'd rather have faith in my repair man and use a little TLC when I unload!

Hey - it's Christmas Eve! My kids will be here all day cooking loads of fish and home made cookies ... mmmmmm. I LOVE Christmas.

Dave we all make mistakes, ...it's how you pick yourself up and continue on life's journey that matters...
I know you can do it buddy!
Merry Christmas


btw..Where did you buy the s910 ...store....private?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-24-2010).]

Well said James, and mostly accurate.

You must also take into consideration that Korg do not make entry level arrangers...I would consider the PA-500 a mid range instrument.

Yamaha (and Casio) completely dominate the entry level...most kids can't afford a PA-500, but they can swing a Casio or low end PSR.

Just like the old trick with the type (make) of cars used in Driving Schools, the students quite often buy a car from the same manufacturer.

Low end 76/88 note Casio and Yamaha piano based arrangers are often purchased with the beginning piano student in mind...Casio offers nothing in the higher ranger, but Yamaha does; CVP, or Tyros, or PSR-S-series...and of course, the Motif, which is often seen in videos and on TV

I also believe the way things are set up with Korg and Yamaha, that it allows them both to co-exist in a similar market, and also enables each company to access areas in which the other doesn't tread.

As far as I know, the competition is not as aggressive between Korg and Yamaha, as it was, let's say, between Korg, or Yamaha, and Roland.

Personally, I feel there is a mutual respect between Korg and Yamaha...maybe still left over from Yamaha's financial bail out of, and technology sharing with, Korg some time ago?

Think of it...Korg doesn't offer a CVP competitor, and Yamaha doesn't make arrangers with the advanced editing (sequencer and sounds) seen on Korg's.

Just a thought.

Ian

What about the rumors that Yamaha & Korg are one in the same company feeding off what the other doesn't have....Hmmmmm good strategy

I'm still waiting for my parts to fix my 800 yellow blotches (liquid crystal release - screen - both keyboards). Hopefully, it'll be soon 'cause it's only been 4 months now

Even with that, very satisfied with my Korg and look forward to anything down the pike from them??

backordered this long??

HEY! Watch that older stuff--I resemble that remark. UD may not like the S910, but there are a lot of performers using this keyboard every day and night. I'm fortunate in that I get to see and hear them on a regular basis and believe me these guys know how to make that keyboard rock.

As for the vocal processor, most have done what DonM and myself have done--pair it up with the TC Helicon Harmony-M. It's a fantastic combination and you get the best of both worlds. Yamaha's onboard vocal processor is actually very, very good, it can be readily tuned to fit any voice and the vocal quality it produces is outstanding. And, as stated, the slight delay is a pain in the a$$. Therefore, the combination of the TC, it's effects and excellent vocal harmony processor, produce incredible vocals.

Now to the kids. Put a guitar in a youngster's hands and he or she is a happy camper. They're just as happy with an I-pod, and any other hand-held electronic device. An arranger keyboard,or synth, on the other hand requires an enormous amount of work to learn the entire operating system, which IMO, is essential to making that arranger keyboard sound great instead of mediocre. The youngsters, at least most of them, are not willing to put forth that kind of effort. Especially not in this world of instant gratification, texting, sexting, blue-tooth, etc...

Dave, send me the S910 and I'll trade you even up my spare, new-condition, PSR-3000. I'll use the S-910 for a spare--just in case my aging PSR-3000 happens to take a dive.

Merry Christmas old friend,

Gary

Hi Ian,

Yes I like the European version of the GW8 better then the latin version and is a good companion to the PA 500 because of the very good synth lead sounds of the Roland. I really missed these sounds. I haven't compare the Roland and the Korg side by side yet because the joystick of the Korg is broken and is back to the dealer for repair. I must say of all the years I played Yamaha I never had any problems like this. I hope Roland continue making instruments like the GW8 but I am not sure.

Hi Ian.



But does that not just make my point even more relevant as none of the kids keyboards from Yamaha come with styles suitable for the actual music they listen to?.



I'm a bit like that myself but the problem still remains. Even if the kids stick with the same brand, will it be a Tyros or a Motif they will want when they advance? What is there in a Tyros right now that even comes close to what the kids listen to?



I fear there is more to this. Yamaha have zero interest in making a top end arranger for the younger generation, and KORG are trying to please everyone all at the same time.

Both are not ideal solutions but at least there's a future for what KORG are doing.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 12-24-2010).]

Ah well, Jim, I don't think we're going to quite agree on this.

Think of it this way...how many kids are going to buy a $5000 arranger?

How many kids want to be a one-man-band arranger player?

The people with the most disposable income are the over 40-50 crowd...they have the time and the money for their hobby, which will be a mid-line, or more likely, a top line, arranger.

I rarely see anyone under 40 yrs at arranger demos, whether they be Yamaha or whatever.

20 years ago, the age group that were interested, were the same...40-50 years old.

20 yerars from now, it will still be 40-50 year olds...just those with different tastes in music.

As the new 40-50 year old replace the first bunch, the arrangers will have styles (and features) to suit their musical taste...styles are the easiest thing to change nowadays.

Korg is trying for a different user, one who may want more editing power...that's okay, as these users need to be accommodated as well.

It's like automobiles...some want an automatic, and some want to shift for themselves, although perhaps cars may not be the best example, as dual clutch automated manuals will soon become the norm in the quest for fuel efficency.

I see a good future for the arranger...remember, 20 years ago we sold higher end arrangers to roughly the same age group...arrangers will not die out like the organs did years ago...arrangers are more affordable, portable, easier to play, and programmable.

Plus, today, we have the Internet, and much more contact between arranger users.

Ian


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 12-24-2010).]

Hi Ian.



I don't think we are miles apart at all.



If I take that question and simply remove the price.....

*How many kids are going to buy a arranger?*

Now it's more in line with what I'm trying to get at. The price has really nothing to do with it. If the user starts out with a Yamaha toy arranger and then grows, they are highly unlikely to buy a Tyros these days simply because they offer zero content that's relevant to the music they listen to. Their function is far behind that of workstations too.

Ultimately Yamaha's undoing it's own market and it's own business by not advancing arrangers or providing them with relevant content to draw in and keep hold of new users.



It's important to break that down though. Out of all the arrangers on the market I think we can all agree that KORG's are the most technically advanced in that they come with full samplers, very deep sound engines, are fully programmable, and the midi implementation allows users to fully integrate their arranger with a DAW or any other midi device.

Now does that sound anything like the age group Yamaha are aiming the Tyros at?



Not sure how the logic applies to keybaords here.



Sadly that still doesn't change a single thing though. What kid growing up wants to play a good polka or a quick step?

Regards
James

Dave, because I LOVE you man, I will trade my Roland E50 for the S910. I'll even throw in a bag. NOT my wife, a keyboard bag.
DonM

Well, considering I've been with the company for almost 30 years, I respectfully can't agree with that statement at all.

You are looking at it from the perspective of a self admitted non-arranger user.

Are 40-50 year olds going to suddenly die off, or will people jump immediately from 39 to 60?

Today' kids will be 40 some day; today's 30-something's will be there sooner...when they get there, you can bet there will be a Yamaha arranger to suit their musical taste...will they play polkas? Who knows? I never thought I would be playing music from the 40's, but I do.

New arranger users start at the same age...around 40...so, relative content, is, well, only relative.

Ian

Hi Ian.



You of all people then should be very well aware of what's going on around you and what's already transpired.

Ketron is struggling, Roland have seriously backed way off, Technics have gone out of business, GEM have gone out of business, and WERSI have gone out of business.

Do you really not see a trend in all that?

Regards
James

One, two, Cha, cha cha

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-24-2010).]

Roland and Technics are out of it for reasons other than an alleged downturn of mid and high end arranger sales, so it really leaves only GEM and Wersi, neither of which were on steady ground for any long stretches of time due to internal issues.

Sites like PSR Tutorial, and YPKO are always gaining new members, as I am sure Korg is as well.

My numbers were up again this year...that's a trend of which I am well aware.

Ian

Roland could very well still release something new in an arranger as they are known top wait longer in between models as in past tradition....I wouldn't count them out as of yet.

lol.... Ian, I call that being totally oblivious to the facts as well as every point I've made.

Oh well...

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 12-24-2010).]

Well James, I could say the same thing about you.

Let's just agree to disagree.

Ian

Maybe they will make arrangers again, Donny, however what new technology do they have to compare with Korg's DNC and Yamaha's Mega and SA/SA2, just for openers?

It's disappointing to see another choice gone by the wayside, just as it must have been for Technic's enthusiasts to see that company discontinue arrangers (and the entire keyboard line as well).

Ian

Already done, but I'm rather disappointed we couldn’t come to any conclusion here.

Far as your concerned, all is well. Yet I see companies gone out of business and the arranger market shrinking.

Regards
James

Or maby Roland is working together with Casio in the future. I could swear I hear some Roland sounds in the new Casio

I'm not disappointed...it's not uncommon for these things to happen.

Time will tell what methods will work for the respective companies.

All I can relate is my own experience, and also that of my work-mates within the company I work for...business is very good.

Yes, other companies are shutting down, but in the case of all but Technics, it has been poor (or lack of) product development or management and/or improper marketing.

Technics left when it was at the top of it's game, and at a time when arranger markets were strong...that was very strange.

Small(er) companies lack R&D resources, or another segment of the company that can help keep overall profits in good shape, and in today's highly competitive market, that can be the difference between sinking or staying afloat.

Have a great Christmas, and, as they say here in Cape Breton..."If the women don't find you handsome, at least let them find you handy."

Ian

the arranger market as a whole might be shrinking (although i am not sure that is true at all ) but yamaha's target arranger market does not seem to be shrinking at all. if anything it is snatching up the previous buyers of technics and roland and gem owners . They are also stealing some straight workstation users as well.

Also the arranger market has much greater predictability and longevity than worktations because the market is resistant to change and hence each 'new product' is remarkably simlar to the last with a few tweaks and yet the arranger buyer is incrediibly loyal to their brand of arranger provider . If korg yamaha and ketron do things right they can almost gaurantee that the next 4 - 5 future upgrades will be bought by their current customer base .

Yamaha cannot say the same about the motif brand, neither roland of the fantom brand and korg of the M3.
This is because the arranger buyer typically has :
a. the money buy each successive upgrade when they appear.
b. dont want to learn a competitors operating system
c. dont purchase because of need but desire to have the latest greatest no matter how irrational the purchase is
D. Arnt interested in usinf computers to make music
E. never fully use their existing arranger so features can be recycled as new ' when they existed on either previous models or previous competitors models

I undestand and accept Ians point very well.

The fact that yamaha add new styles to their overall mix such as the 'Prince purple rain style ' , I believe i can fly 'and the over used Sledge hammer style before that for example demonstrate the point ian was making. Those are styles from my era . And in the future there will be styles from my daughters era and so on.

If anything, its the straight up hardware workstations that are at the most risk of diminishing sales as more younger musicians turn to controller keyboards and note books for live playing. Hard ware workstations instruments used to compete on sound quality and total compact production. However even the best hardware workstations cannot compete with a well integrated controler keyboard and computer with the best available software in terms of sound quality and compact production.

If i were to crystal ball gaze i would say that arrangers have a more sure 10 year future than workstations.



[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 12-24-2010).]

Ian,Spalding.
You have both made this issue Chrystal clear,presenting an even, factual resumes of where the arranger market is today and will likely be in the future.

In my view You have both identified the projected future of arranger manufacturer and users, also more than adequately answered to the original posters statement.Thanks for your considered input.

Gilbert.

And with that said, lets all stick our heads in the sand and continue to pin hopes on what Yamaha will do in the future when they are not even catering for the music and functionality of today. Lets also forget those that have gone out of business for doing the very same thing and those currently in trouble.

And finally, lets all just hope everyone under the age of 40 going forward loves a good Polka and Cha Cha and the go against all modern music of today.

Irishact.
You guessed, I wish I was Under 80,

Have a Happy and Merry Christmas.

Gilbert.

James,

Maybe that cheapo Wersi Wing will turn a few heads, what do you think?

Tony

....or, moving forward the under 40 crowd will have to actually create their own music with a KB workstation which in itself isn't a bad thing creatively ...just takes some talent and some time.

The vast majority are already doing it without arrangers so maybe everything I've said is already pointless from the point of view that it's already too late.

Not that Yamaha probably care too much either way as if they can't sell them Arrangers, they will sell them Workstations. It's a win win for them either way.

Oh... I don't know. Just don't want to see Arrangers become like Organs in the time line of history.

James.

I don't think there is any reason to doubt they will. Here it looks like that the music
who was "Top of the hitlists" when I was young still does it for people in most ages.
Examples are: Creedence, Rolling Stones, Hollies, Beatles etc.
Also Country Music who has been less popular for a period are now great stuff.
Popularity of music styles changes like a sine curve during the times, and new styles
of music being added all the time.
I think we will see this mirrored as "on board" styles in future if arrangers still
being made, as well as (hopefully) more addon stuff will be made to fit the regional,
local and personal taste.

Nowadays more and more young people going to dance classes and compete in "showdance",
standard dances and native culture dancing, so Polka, Tango, Cha-Cha, Swing, Waltz,
Rumba and Riverdance etc. will continue live on.

Regarding Yamaha taking down other Arranger brands, yes, I think it looks like that is
a fact. Yamaha is a big company that have the resources, money, personal, marketing ...
you name it.
Never seen as low price for a new top of the line arranger in this country as when the
Tyros 4 came out. So, if Yamaha also manage to make styles sound more live and natural
like Ketron and Korg, "steal" the Composer, Bank and Panel Memory functions as well as
add some of the userfriendly OS from Technics, they're going to win the battle.
If Yamaha then adds optional choice as onboard speakers as well as 76 keys for those who
prefer such model, they will blow the competitors off of the scene!

It's really too bad if Korg, Ketron and maybe Wersi don't make any success by continue
developement and production of arranger keyboards.
Competition is sure needed to keep up the diversity as well as avoid monopoly.

Cheers
GJ

Don't worry, Jim, Yamaha has it all under control...it's out of your (and my) hands anyway, as companies like Yamaha and Korg do what they think is best for them...not what we arm-chair marketers think they should do.

Live for today...the future will take care of itself...and maybe, just maybe, you'll age well and in a few years, you will soon be playing an arranger like the rest of us.

Merry Christmas

Ian

Thanks Gilbert. I really do see a good future for arrangers...I've yet to see a clinic or demo where the "under 40's" outnumber the "over 40's", but, unless the world explodes, or we have anothet flood (I'm putting two of each arranger in the ark ), we will always have "over 40's".

It's like automobile makers who cater to a certain age group successfully, like Toyota with it's Camry, and/or Honda with it's Accord...the Tyros is geared towards the age group I stated, as they are the ones with the income, the time, and the interest.

May you have a Merry and Musical Christmas, Gilbert.

In the old days, it was not called the Holiday Season; the Christians called it "Christmas" and went to church; the Jews called it "Hanukka" and went to synagogue; the atheists went to parties and drank. People passing each other on the street would say "Merry Christmas!" or "Happy Hanukka!" or (to the atheists) "Look out for the wall!"

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 12-25-2010).]

IMHO,
When the new Korg comes...look out, it is going to be superb.

Then, I will go about the decision to go Yamaha or Korg...

I have many areas of those instruments to explore before I decide.

By the way...new younger people getting into arrangers???
Ha Ha...have you looked at today's youth lately...they could'nt care less.
Part of it is...their just too lazy..OH.. I am only talking USA here...

Lee S.

James,... with the release of T4 it's already happening....keeping the WS & Arr camps split is all marketing strategy & of course keeps the money flowing in....which is their #1 priority.as i see it Arps, patterns etc, etc, better start being involved in every ex
Pro-arranger players itinerary in the future to create modern relative music or slowly slip into the musical rocking chair io the home players living room. This next KORG release is a very important one in terms of where Arrangers will be headed in the future..

btw, did you get my email?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-25-2010).]

Go on youtube and type in korg pa1x or 2x or pa800 and look at the ages of the users. There are literally hundreds of clips of different users on the web and they are all almost without exception under 30 years old. I know you were only refering to the USA but this is the reason that i dont know if i agree with James initial premise about the future of arrangers and the supposedly diminishing market.

Not to flog a dead horse on this but....
Now apply your observation to Yamaha and you might understand where I'm coming from.

Yamaha have intentionally allowed the Tyros to be simple to operate by not giving you advanced features in order to sell it to a certain age bracket. The problem with that logic is that the keyboards are not appealing to the younger generation as the keyboards do not offer them the sounds or functions they require. For Yamaha to change and to cater for the younger generation they now have to develop countless new features, and totally alienate their current market. But that will not happen and it's too late. The younger generation will just skip over the Yamaha Arranger and buy one of their Motif's or some other brand. Maybe even a KORG Arranger.

KORG on the other hand have done the complete opposite and their keyboards do come with pretty much everything you get in a workstation. Which is where your observation come in, and untimely verifies what I just said above about Yamaha.

The demise of the arranger was very much so directed at Yamaha.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 12-26-2010).]

James, that poor horse...have you no mercy?

The only one who has a problem with how Yamaha is doing things, is you.

Suddenly you are wiser than the professional marketers at Yamaha...really?

Obviously Yamaha's arranger strategy has been working for a very long time..well over 20 years...the PSR and Tyros line have an enviable sales record.

Korg goes after a different market, or more accurately, age group...obviously they can co-exist with Yamaha, as both companies are successful.

So what makes Korg any better at it than Yamaha?

Nuttin'...other than you being a hardcore Korg enthusiast, and wanting it (Korg) to appear better than Yamaha...your posts lean heavily in that direction, and it has become quite obvious to even the most casual reader.

Korg is not better...just different.

Read my posts (and Spalding's posts) again...we are just as accurate as you.

No one is wrong here...there are just different perspectives.

Now, leave that poor old horse alone...

Ian

Ian, I believe you said you have worked for Yamaha for 30 years?

That considered, I don't expect you to even entertain my view. Your not an end user in the same sense as everyone else here. It's in your interest to dismiss everything I say.

Regards
James.

That's the problem James...I do see your view in regards to both companies having different strategies. I don't dismiss your points in that respect.

However, I don't share your view that one company is better at making arrangers than the other, or one strategy is superior to the other ...I'm much more open minded, in that respect.

Both companies make exceptional arrangers...both market them very successfully...both cater to a different age group and/or user.

Promote your favorite company all you like, but consider how shallow a promotion becomes when you have to put down another company in the process.

Have I been guilty of something similar?

Yep, but, I like to think I've moved on from needing to do that sort of thing any more. All it creates is pissing contests, and, in many cases, bad feelings, and it ultimately shows how insecure one has to be to do it in the first place.

I am an end user, just like you are, and I am not limited to buy only Yamaha, nor am I restricted in being open about using another brand for personal or professional use. I'm simply very content with the type of arranger being made by Yamaha...it is better, only in the respect that it suits my needs and playing style more closely than any other brand.

Best wishes,

Ian

James,

What will be will be and you will not make one jot of difference, Arranger or Workstation does it matter, MS,Wesri,Ketron,Korg they will never make product in Yamaha numbers all put together they won't and some won't be around this time next year, looks loke the market has been saturated. For someone to buy a product at £4500 it needs to be all singing dancing and I don't see anything around like that. I am waiting for the Wing but I am not holding my breath, I was going to have ago at MS but I don't think I could sell my Korg or the Audya at the moment.

BTW Merry Christmas and any pochen left?

One happy Korg and Yamaha user,would not be without either.

Gilbert.

Gilbert, if I could try out a Korg arranger, I would more than likely have one here to compliment the Yamaha.

At one time I was very interested in a Roland arranger, most specifically, the E-80, which I was able to try out.

However, Yamaha managed to improve their organ sounds (especially the Hammond emulations on the S910 and Tyros2/3) so one of the reasons to get the Roland was eliminated...the other issue was the weight of the E-80, a terrific sounding, and well featured arranger otherwise.

Today's TOTL arrangers are all exceptionally gifted...it's now only down to personal tastes and needs.

What Korg are you using...the PA2XPro?

Ian

the problem James is that you see almost entirely the future of arrangers resting with a target market of uner 20 year olds . But what Ian and i are saying is thats not yamaha's target market. And just as there is a limitless supply of under 20's there is a limitless supply of over 30's and 40 year olds and play at home hobbyists and people who would just like to 'have a go'. Yamaha's target market for their arrangers.

Different marketsthat can both coexist.

Most of the KORGERs are non arrnger users/VH only and drum machine only ( bass/drum/right hand),SMF playbackers.

90 % of you tube Korg you tube Vids are mid eastern and most of them use quarter tone/sampling.Yammy's OR series may do the same sound but not punchy enough.

I have been saying this for years.


if you play western (not cowboy) music (pop/rock/ballads/country etc) Yammy is the way to go.US/UK/Ausssies/West EU and Asia - PSR/Tyros has top sales.More fills/natural simple 8 /16 beats that fits most of the popular songs.


Mid east and East euro arranger players -KORG (unique RH sound/sampling/3 rd party styles)-Korg sales are high and you may not even see MOTL Yammys in their stores.Their local KORG support is also great since 80% of the OMB players uses KoRG.


Now SMF players with occational arranger work -KORG.

This has been like this for past 12 years (after introduction od PSR 2k) and will be like this for a while.(Until Korg has same 3 rd party user styles like Yammy).
Roland was where Yammy is now in the 90's (E 86 ,anyone? out sold I3 because of direct disk play function - that was before G series).


Yammy players do know that KORG has better editing,sequencer, punchier sounds for most part/better hardware in general BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT PART FOR AN ARRANGER USER - KORG CAN NOT COMPETE WITH YAMMY -SIMPLE AND MANY MANY (THOUSANDS) OF STYLES AND 3RD PARTY SUPPORT. Yes, that's why Yammy is getting away with cheap hardware, VH and still charge more than 1500$ and still sells like cakes.Their secret - make GOOD styles (It's a ARRANGER, Duh!) that can fit many songs not just one songs/do not over orchestrate/make simple fiils/dot put a shift button to change styles or sounds,make it light.

Korg does have punchier over all WS type sound/better editing editing but will still loose Yammy in arranger market for ( not having simpler 8/16 beats, over orchestration and fills).OS is not the issue but over all styles (content) are- for the arranger player.


Korg spent more time on doing funk/bad latin or rap, new age and disco styles with overly recognizable bass and drum lines (BAD MOVE FOR AN ARRANGER).Yammy spend more time of styles with simple guitar strums/piano lines /bass/drums- 8 and 16 beats and oldies all with simpler bass and drum lines to fit most songs.Arranger user who uses ARRANGER function mostly for the gig(for western music) has no other choice but to buy a Yammy.Again, exceptions may be there, but rare.



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 12-27-2010).]

And I think that sums it up perfectly.

All brands have their strengths and weaknesses. Which fit is best with you is completely an individual choice. I have never been brand loyal ... I always use whatever best fits with me at the time. No brand loyalty ever comes into play. I have had keyboards by all major manufacturers over the years and have liked them all but usually for very different reasons. So different people will always prefer different keyboards. Everyone has to carefully weigh pros and cons to find the best balance for them. And we all know that ALL brands always have both pros and cons.

Sound quality, styles, OS interface, keybed feel vary so much on an arranger keyboard that people will never completely gravitate to just one brand.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 12-27-2010).]

That's true,
as long as there are more than one brand to choose from.

Ian,
With all due respect....
I think James may be somewhat correct.
I'm not sure how many of the 20's-30's crouwds of today will later be like us 40's, 50's ++ of today.
Will they want an arranger that caters to TODAYS over 50 crowd??
OR will they want to use the ones (BRAND) that they use today....????....????

Lee S.

No, they will want an arranger that will appeal to their over 40-50's crowd.

And, at that time, Yamaha will be adding the styles and features that will appeal to them.

You see, Lee, both sides of the situation are progressing; not just the arranger or just the target market...they are moving in parallel.

There will always be a segment consisting of 40-50 year olds...they will require styles (and features) to suit the kind of music they grew up with, and also the music of their present time.

That's easy, as styles are easily replaced/renewed/reprogrammed.

Korg is after the younger buyer who want more extensive editing regarding sounds and sequencing.

There is a market for both, and both Korg and Yamaha have been co-existing in addressing them for some time now.

What do you think is going to change? Yamaha's Tyros/PSR market has actually grown each year, so they must be doing something right.

I don't know about Korg, but I suspect they are just as successful, so their strategy is working too.

In my opinion, neither one is better...they are just different.

Ian

Ian.
So according to your logic, people like me are going to give up our workstations when we get to 50 because then arrangers will have the styles I'm looking for?

It's not going to happen mate, I can tell you that for sure right now.

Regards
James

So lets see...Hmmmmm? 83 posts so far not bad for nonsense

No, according to my logic, you won't be in the market for a Tyros...you want more extensive editing for sounds and sequences.

You will buy a Korg.

However, there will be lots of over 40-50 interested in the way Yamaha presents it's arrangers.

You just won't be one of them.

If Korg did things Yamaha's way, they'd alienate their target market...and vice-versa.

Why is it so hard to see that there are two successful marketing strategies, that obviously co-exist with no problems?

Maybe there's more beneath the surface than we know...perhaps Yamaha and Korg are actually working together to cover both markets?

There seems to be more emphasis on coexistence than competitiveness...maybe there is something left over from the time when Yamaha saved Korg's cookies by buying into the company?

Who knows for sure?

Ian

Ian,
But, If I was 25, played arranger...specifically Korg...TODAY...and then I get to 50...will I change to Yamaha because now they have styles for the music I grew up with?

Somehow I think not..so if that is correct..when todays youth grow to 50+ who will Yamaha sell to?

IMHO, If Yamaha does not have the youth of today..they will not have the older crowd of tomorrow (Hey...it will be the same people)

Lee S.

To paraphrase Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder:

Yamaha and Korg Comp'ny
Live together in perfect harmony
Side by side on my 'rranger keyboard
Oh Lord, why can't we?
---------------------------------------------

Oh, and Jamman, I've been playing an i30 and a Pa1XPro over the past ten years purely as an arranger, no SMFs, on western (pop, rock, top-40, ballads, standards, and so on). I must be a rarity, then. How cool is that?

+1

Well Lee, you can't use a mindset of today (for example, 25), to predict what you would want in 25 years time at 50.

There are two distinct markets...Yamaha caters to one, and Korg the other.

Of course, there will be some overlap.

Also consider, that arrangers as we know them today, may/will exist in much different forms in 25 years time...there may not be any arrangers being made of the type now being made by Yamaha and Korg.

Answer me this...Yamaha and Casio sell a lot of entry level arrangers...who buys them?

Ian

Don't you see that its the STYLES that make all the difference....now this is where the problem is...even if they made more so called modern styles only four variations of each isn't enough to create songs the right way to your liking...the inevitable has to eventually happen with the merging of the WORKSTATION with the ability to make music & styles from scratch track by track & ARRANGER ease of use so that anyone can create music for ANY AGE easily.....ANYWAY YOU WANT all in one unit. Until then get ready to layout money for every so called new rehash unit over and over again.

You can make at least 8 variations in a song using the registration memory.

I also suspect that future arrangers will have more than the 4 variation + 3 intro/ending they have now.

Remember, not that long ago, arrangers had only two variations/style...it's not hard to imagine there will be more advanced styles in the future that handle much more.

Also, consider that what is being sold today for entertainment is vastly different than what was being marketed only five years ago...things like Guitar Hero, and other music games are far more popular to kids who mostly want "instant gratification"...I-pod, and I-pad musical apps are being introduced seemingly every day...what will kids buy in the future? Will it even have keys?

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 12-27-2010).]

Ian all good points variations & styles DO NOT fit into what the kids are listening to today ....why?.....because they were NOT produced on an arranger keyboard!!! so how to you reproduce it with repetitiousness style variations, tempo changes, rap & hiphop beats, etc, etc, .....but if the player was able to EASILY make style tracks customized to a certain song the way they like there might be a chance... then again I would assume many just want the easy way out and have the manufacturer dictate what you will play and how your music sounds......funny thing is they know this and know how to manipulate the public keep them separated in two camps and beyond which increases sales.....MORE CHOICES means MORE MONEY IN THEIR POCKET......the New Motif XF almost has it right....just please include full style creation also & you would have a killer arranger/workstation KB. Now that's what people should be complaining about and writing their letters too...plus they are so much less money then a TOTL arranger?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8A6cvkoyH0&feature=channel

watch this XF demo from 11:00 this is what our styles should sound like.

But unfortunately they never will. What you heard was a good production, constructed track by track, from a guy who not only can play, but has that intangible called taste, in other words, he knows what sounds good together. You can have the best styles in the world, but if you don't know what sounds good, or how to put them together to form a cohesive production, then they (styles) are of little use. There is still that little thing called talent that needs to be present.

Donny, just as you have said that the best harmonizer/pitch correction/vocal processor in the world isn't going to make you a good singer if you stink to begin with (paraphrase), the same thing holds true for an arranger player with an arranger packed with good styles. This is one of those rare times I agree with you . Like you said, there are no 'magic bullets'....

If you want to make yourself into a better musician, you have to change your mindset. You can't sit around waiting for that next generation of arranger to do it for you; you have to do it the old fashioned way, you have to earn it. You want to wish for something? Wish for better sounds, for better articulation of the way the keyboard produces the sound. Wish for a better key feel. Wish for a more intuitive OS. Heck, even wish for a better price and better after sale service. Just stop wishing for better styles. The guy in the video didn't have any.

JMO, of course.

chas

Chas, I'm at this point actually happy with Yamaha styles & sounds to a point where I'd say how much better will it ever get & why ?...I'd be happy if they never made anymore at all no need for it now.......
I would however be allot happier if they would now work on what players need regarding DESIGN, NAVIGATION, and all physical attribute features that really needs to be addressed & implemented asap in future models..starting with a much bigger display, sliders, knobs, inputs, separate, simultaneous play-modes & more pro features.

Happy New Year

thank God donny the thread has steered away from your topic. Its not about supposedly yamaha taking down anybody. Your initial topic is still nonsense. You nor anyone can demonstrate in anyway that yamaha's strategy has caused the demise of any other manufacturers sales or their decision not to compete in th arranger market. And this topic has still flown close to a pissing contest. Luckily the posters have been very diplomatic and hopefully that will continue.

Ian,
Who buys the entry level...not the 25 year olds we are talking about here..not the serious young arranger players. Just go to Youtube.

The 7 year olds as a toy...maybe the 70 year olds as a toy. (My 68 year old friend just got a E-323 that I helped him pick out, because he always wanted to play a keyboard)

I'm talking PSR E213's etc.

Lee S.

Rarely have I seen a 7 year old with an E-323...I have seen teenagers, which is what I think Casio and Yamaha are aiming at with these instruments.

Remember, these companies also sell entry level "piano-based" arrangers like the Piaggero,DGX, and PSR-E series, and CTK, WK, Privia etc ,......these instruments have arpeggiators and built in sequencers, and styles and pitch wheels, analog type (filter/attack/release) synth controls...

Korg doesn't sell anything in this price range with these features...Roland attempted to break in with some product, but Casio and Yamaha rule the roost in this segment.

90% of the pros buy Workstations, and Yamaha competes extremely well in that area with the Motif, as does Korg.

Compared to Yamaha, Korg has a very small line-up of keyboards...they don't have entry-level PSR type arrangers, they don't have high-end (and entry-level) piano-based arrangers like the DGX and CVP-series.

Contrast them and we see both companies targeting specific (and in some cases, different) markets with their high end arrangers.

So, these companies obviously have different strategies (and quite likely, will need different strategies)...BOTH are very successful, both make excellent products for the segments they cover.

So, is one "better" than the other?

Nah! They are just different.

Ian

A friend of mine uses a PSR-E413 in his recording studio...it sits in with some pretty high end synthesizers.

He loves the E413's synth controls and arpeggiator, and, it is an instrument that gets used quite often.

Sure, the sound quality may not be ultra-pristine, but that's actually why he uses it, as it gives a nice edge to his work.

He also borrows my Yamaha CS01 analog mono-synth, which has mini-keys, and looks like a toy.

However, it doesn't sound like one (it uses the same oscillator as the monster CS-80) and is in high demand on the second-hand market.

Remember in the 80's when a lot of "synth pop" groups were using low-end Casio instruments?

We are only limited, not by the instruments, but by our imagination.

Ian

Don't know about that, I can imagine quite a few things the Tyros 4 doesn't have that I and millions of other people use every day around the world.

The Tyros doesn't even have a proper Sequencer, let alone a sampler, full midi implementation, or even a sound engine that can access all it's own functions.

I'm almost tempted to start throwing around the terms Home Arranger VS Pro Arranger and comparing.

It had to start somewhere.. what ever it takes to make the minds congeal
Tyros 5 shouldn't be too long a wait now.. ?

So, the Tyros doesn't work for you, Jim...you buy a Korg.

The Korg doesn't work for many people as well...so they buy Yamaha.

Not much good comparing, as they are designed for different markets, although, there is some overlap.

No matter how you cut it, both companies are very successful at marketing their arrangers.

You like Korg, some people don't.

I like Yamaha, some people don't.

Unless Korg takes off the Single Finger Chord setting, it is just another home arranger, albeit, one with a bit more depth to some of the functions.

Of course, if you must start another pissing contest, I'm sure there are those who would like to contribute to it, even if it is, and always was, a big waste of time.

I have better things to do.

Ian

James...it is true. The Yamaha arrangers are home keyboards. That is Yamaha's target market.
You can not compare them to the PRO arrangers like Pa2Xpro, which has tons of PRO synth features as well as being an arrangher..

So, lt's don't try to compare them at all...they are different animals.

Both excellant at what they do.

Lee S.

Are you referring to Nursing "Homes"?
Home vs Pro isn't an issue with so many people making a living using all kinds of arranger KB's out there regardless...who is to say different?.....is there some sort of Home keyboard police?...that theory doesn't hold water in my book..

The only thing "pro" on the PA2XPro is the name.

For goodness sakes, Lee, it has single finger chording

What "pro" arranger would have single finger chording, which is for the rank beginner?

Yes, the Korg has more editing in the sounds and sequencer...big deal...most, if not all pros, use software sequencers that give you much more power and a much larger screen with which to work.

The PA2XPro, is just a gussied up home arranger...that's all...take off the single finger easy play chording, and it might have a better chance.Ha Ha.

Mind you, it is a nice piece of kit, but, then , so is the Tyros4, when you judge them both on their own merits.

And yes, both are excellent at what they do, and both are intended for slightly different markets.

You might be better off comparing the PA2XPro to the Audya.

Ian

I agree, Spalding...Yamaha has had nothing (or, at least, very little) to do with the demise of other arrangers.

Roland caused it's own demise...Technics was discontinued by the parent company Matsushita Electric for reasons unknown, but it certainly wasn't because the product wasn't marketed right, or that it had become unable to compete on a technological level...they were great instruments, and were very popular.

GEM also had internal problems in the company...the products themselves weren't at fault.

Yamaha is made up of many divisions, and each one supports the other.

That may be one of the main reasons they are still doing very well.

It's always sad to see a company stop producing arrangers, as we both know, competition is what keeps everyone on their toes, and it always benefits the buyer.

Ian

Donny...yes it does hold water...
Ian, If you only knew what was 'in there'.

A talented professional entertainer can make a living with just about any keyboard, atrranger or not. I am talking about the keyboard here NOT the musician. It's even more true if you can sing well!
That does not mean all arrangers are created equal as to PRO features...OK, let's call it advanced features if you want.

I bet most of the members here could take a Yamaha E-323 or the like and go out and gig with it an get by OK?? Because of their talent.

Some folks don't need or care about some of the advanced features, some do. This is not about whether you personally need or want these features..but they are there in what I call a PRO level keybord (arranger in this case)

Also, this is not about yours is better than mine ot vise versa...or if it doesn't have those advanced features its bad.

I am looking at a T4 or PA3XPRO...not sure which way I'll go...so I'm no Korg biggot.
I may forgo the advanced features of the Korg over the Yamaha for specific reasons...or I might go the other way.
You see...I am a home keyboard player that loves advanced features.

It all comes down to how you want to use the instrument now AND in the future.

Lee S.

How about the question Lee of Do I really need all these advanced features? or could I do with a less featured MOTL unit being I wont use many of the TOTL advanced features?

Donny,
Yes, that's a very good point and I have even been thinking along the same lines...I like the features and I really do enjoy messing wit them and using them...but, it depends on what you use the bord for.

See...in your case (not just blowing smoke here) you are a PRO muscian and have a great voice! You couls entertain with any keyboard. You, of course will soiud BETER with a great sounding on. Many others are in your category too.

But, Me, I am a home player...I like instrumental playing and I NEED more keyboard...because I can' sing worth a crap!
I come from the organ arena.

So...for me the better the keyboard is sound wise, features to make me sound better etc..the better I enjoy it all.

There is different categories of buyers.

I don't have time (62 now) to learn to sing (proably could not any ways), be a concert pianist etc...I just like to set here and play songs I love to hear. AND I enjoy the neat features of an arranger.

Lee S.

Well then I would say the new Tyros 4 Home Arranger would be a good fit for you...but Yamaha MOTL units are pretty close sounding ...so again you must ask your self at any age.....do I want to spend 4k+ for a unit I might have to sell for a loss two years later for the next upgraded one? Unless you intend to keep it for a long time. Or a MOTL & upgrade down the road without breaking the bank.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-28-2010).]

I have a good idea what is "in there", Lee, as I've played Korg synths and workstations...very well done. I must say.

"Advanced" features on these high end arrangers from both Korg and Yamaha are different...take Yamaha's SA/SA2 voices, for example and how they respond to a player's style, or input....I'd consider that something advanced.

Korg's extensive editing is no less of an "advanced" feature.

Where SA/SA2 come into their own, is for the person who plays a lot of instrumental music...I'm 61, and, like you, I'm not intending on being a singer, so things like Vocal Harmony, aren't that important to me.

The same as extensive editing of sounds...if the sounds are already excellent, and extremely responsive and playable, about the only "editing" I'll ever need is to brighten or smooth out a tone, which can easily be done by adjusting the filter and brightness controls.

I tend to use "natural" sounds, like guitar, sax, organ, strings, brass etc, so if these sounds are already excellent, then I won't need an elaborate system to change them to suit my style.

I can see where the Korg would appeal to certain types of players, especially those who like to construct their own sets of sounds.

And yes, it isn't about what instrument is "better"...the "better" instrument is the one that meets your needs and suits your playing style the best.

I'm very happy with an S910, a mid-range arranger...it has terrific sounds, great styles and is incredibly playable, in my own opinion.

Would a Tyros4 or Korg PA make me sound "better'? A lot of what comes out of an arranger has to do with the player's skill and technique, and the ability to "arrange" music in a tasteful and interesting manner.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I'd rather spend my time making music than programming and tweaking...the Yamaha allows just enough tweaking to suit me, so that's why I'm using one.

I'm still anxiously awaiting the Tyros4...what I've heard so far has me very interested.

Ian

Forget about the 1 finger PA2X feature. I can lay down ANY chord and the 800 will recognize it. The POWER Korg has is unparalleled, IMO.

Lee, switch to Yammy after the 2X and you'll have withdrawals.

there you go Donny. Pissing contest achieved.

I bet the T4 has singer finger chord reccognition! lol

why even mention that? I would call it owner pride

It might David, but I'm not a singer...thankfully.

However, it might appeal to you.

After over 115 replies! (3 pages) , I think the very FIRST posting reply by Joe Songman55 sums it up the best: I gotta concur.

exactly scott you can say that about motl/totl arrangers for the last 10 years no big deal imo.

Crap like that picture doesn't sit good with me..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Man/Boy_Love_Association
http://www.nambla.org/

Well Donny...as far as I know, that picture has nothing top do with the links you posted.

Nothing at all.

Where do find these associations?

I don't see any positiveness in the picture you posted..missing, exploited & molested children in this world really gets my goat & breaks my heart to hear about. if you want to do something positive email Yamaha and let them donate some of their millions to the cause to help the children.

I don't know pal...where do you get molested children from that picture?

I don't see any positiveness in the picture you posted..missing, exploited & molested children in this world really gets my goat & breaks my heart to hear about. if you want to do something positive email Yamaha and let them donate some of their millions to the cause to help the children.

If the picture is somehow offensive, then Nigel will remove it.

However, it obviously has nothing to do with molested, exploited children, and if that's what you're seeing, I'd say you might have a problem, and need to talk to someone professional.

As far as your second remark, and as I said on a post in another thread, Yamaha donates much money to underprivileged children...one of the many reasons I'm proud to work for the company.

Ian

There's nothing wrong with that picture...it's funny...

And...stay away from high voltage!
Lee S.

Me too...Joe nailed it right on the head!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzO1mCAVyMw&feature=player_embedded

------------------
Bo pen nyang

Maybe you never has any experiences with a missing or molested child but I have...sometime ago a neighbor of mine franticly knocked on our door screaming her child was 7 yr old missing..the community mounted an all night search in the snow in the dark with dogs also, as a father of 4 I will never forget the feeling of not knowing where your child is. Luckily we found her in the woods hours later lost, freezing, but unharmed, I was so relieved & happy for her parents who were going nuts wondering what happened. Ever since then every time I see a lost child on TV, kidnapped, molested, etc, I think back of how those parents felt. Nothing in this world is worse then that. That picture although maybe in fun and non offensive rekindles memories of what could happen. A mature older man & a child should not be going to the bathroom next to each other IMO. This is a sick world out there.
Sorry for venting but that's how I feel about it. Think about it next time you watch the news and see a story of a missing child.

Happy New Year.

What is sick, is someone's mind automatically jumping to the conclusion it is an older guy about to "prey" on a child.

You see a grandfather and who (is most probably his grandson) and they really need to pee.

That is the start and end of this as far as I am concerned.

And believe me I DO have much more reason than you will ever have, to be concerned about child abuse.

How one can find any depravity in an innocent pic such as this one is beyond me.

That being the case I'm sorry for whatever happened in your life Dennis...but with that said you then realize it always starts as "innocent" a piece of candy, a puppy in a park, etc, etc,...I said my peace... & will now back down from this, it's too disturbing .

That's exactly what I saw as well Dennis...a Dad (or grandpa)and his son (or grandson) taking a whiz.

The "High Voltage" sign was the giveaway to a humorous, rather that perverted, picture.

What is even more disconcerting, is that Donny would think I would put up a poster that implied any of the things he suggested.

Ian

Ian I know you too long to think you posted it with any bad intent.....it just hit a very sour note (pardon the pun) with me.
Additionally if I brought awareness to this problem then it's a very good thing.

So what do you do whenever you see a guy offer a kid candy, give a kid a hug or show other signs of affection? And, while less, women molest kids as well. In other words, do you see every man and woman that shows affection to a kid as a possible child molester? If you judge people like that, should you not mind being judged as being a possible child molester as well?

Didn't keep you from posting those "pissing contest" emoticons which you love to post. A pic is a pic is a pic.

You would be on the other side of the fence had it been I that spoke out against the photograph. But I don't expect anything less from you.

I do believe, that if I want to see change, I have to take the initiative and NOT rely on others to take the first step.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang

Ha Ha...good one, Taike.

If only George Michael had seen this video...

Ian