Yamaha Tyros 4 problems demonstrated on video

I just made a few short videos of the issues I'm having with the T4. Any help would be appreciated.

Style Volume: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iWvPoJhA4k
Memory Loss: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcJL6dz25s0
Sample Issues: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoBL9AVEydI

Please keep to the point and avoid discussing other debates (like 76 keys, and Korg vs. Yamaha) in this thread.

NOTE: It seems the first video is not working. I have to go out now, but please check back later. Problem 1 is the worst one...

[This message has been edited by chony (edited 10-31-2010).]

Chony,

I tried to reproduce what you demonstrated and it did not work on my Tyros4.
No memory loss or volume differences.

It looks you got a 'faulty' machine.

[This message has been edited by kla4 (edited 10-31-2010).]

Chony, thanks for your well 'video documented' vids of the problems you're experiencing with your Tyros4.

I definitely hear the percussion erratic volume level changes taking place with your custom style on T4, but not when loaded on your Tyros3. I assume that your custom style utilizes custom sounds (samples?) right? which specific style part(s) utilize custom UVN samples? Also, don't know if it matters, but how much (512 or 1 gig) do you have installed on your T4?

In addition to posting your vids here, I recommend you post this on the Yamaha specific user forums:

PSR Tutorial-Tyros4 Forum

Yamaha Personal Keyboard Owner - Tyros 4 Forum

as well, as Yamaha USA regularly monitors both here, and those forums as well, and may be able to help you. I also recommend you contact Yamaha USA Customer Support directly (714) 522-9011. Ask to speak to Steve Deming.

Good luck my friend,

Scott

Scott Yee Entertainment

The memory issue doesn't happen every time. Have you not experienced it at all?

Did you test samples that had been used on the T3 as well?

Chony I hope you can get these issues worked out.........I hope Yamaha is reading these posts and watching these videos...well done on showing excactly whats wrong..

good luck keep us posted.

I have put this on YPKO T4 Forum also to see if someone can possibly help...
http://www.yamahapkowner.com/forum/index.php?topic=27770.0



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-31-2010).]

Here is a confirmation from another Tyros4 owner...

I have found that folders and files saved in the style memory buttons,to recall,are not retained unless the power is connected,as you say probably a firmware update will come,if everyone experiences the same-seas

Calling Steve Demming!!!!

Chony.

I cannot recreate your T4 memory problem mine works without a hitch. I powered down and up several tomes using different stlye. They all worked fine.

Hi Chony have you sent this off to anyone from Yamaha at all?

When the Motif XS came out it did have some bugs and Yamaha were quick to release updates.

In the Motifator forum there are official Yamaha reps that might be able to point you in the right direction...

Nick

HERE IS THE FIRST VIDEO, IT IS WORKING NOW:

Style Volume: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iWvPoJhA4k

HiChony,
Re memory path save,
I followed your procedure in the video regarding memory loss and found the same problem.

After switching off then restarting the memory path was not saves.

However could not duplicate the style problem after repeated attempts.

Gilbert.
Add. The method I used.Select style,memory save,style group to save in,File access.

[This message has been edited by gilbert (edited 11-01-2010).]

Chony,

Regarding memory loss, where are the style files originally stored before they are lost? Are they completely lost or moved to another directory?

Beakybird

Beakybird,

As I understand it, the styles are stored on a Pen drive or Hd.

You can save this location in a pre set style group and instead of the pre set styles showing when you press the preset style group button the button links direct to the save memory file.To return to the pre set menu, just page back.

There is no loss of files just the loss of the memory path.

Gilbert.

Maybe the problem is that you enter the style creator after changing the volumes
You have to enter the style creator first and than you can change the volumes of the tracks you want to change.
Than start the style creator with recording drum 1 or drum 2.
After recording something(or nothing)to these tracks you have to save the style as a userstyle and everything should be as you
wanted.
This works on my Tyros3 and I hope it will work again on the Tyros4 which I ordered.

Hey Chony
you do the saving wrong,when you save,digital rec style section,first execute and than save.Always first execute before save.
gr Audyaplayer.

Hi Choney,
It does appear that also on the style issue You are right on the mark.

Initial setting are memorised Okay but any subsequent changes to that style alters other settings at random.

On my previous test I only altered the parameters once and all was fine, it really does look look to be an OS problem.

I for one will be in contact with Yamaha for clarification

Many thanks for the video's and highlighting this issue.

Gilbert.

http://www.yamahapkowner.com/forum/index.php?topic=27770.0


Chony here are some YPKO answers so far on your problems.

I get results similar to chony for saving tweaked styles. After saving, clicking on a different style then reloading the changed style, the individual parts are not always at the values saved. This is regardless of whether I use Execute (I never did with Ty3 for MC changes)
or load Style Creator first (before going to mixing console) then use Execute.
Seems like a significant problem or need to operate differently in Ty4. Either way Yamaha need to explain it.

I also find the paths to saved styles are lost from the style buttons, after turning off Power. Didn't happen with Ty3.


john

Can these BUGS be fixed with an OS upgrade?

Thank you all for your concern and responses.

I must take issue with AUDYAPLAYER, since I don't want people posting false solutions:

There are 2 ways to edit a style on a Tyros. The first is to do a global edit. You change the mixer settings outside of the Style Creator, open the Style Creator, and simply save. This saves those mixer settings for every part and variation.

The second way is to do a specific edit on a specific part. To do that, you need to be IN the Style Editor.

This is the way it worked on the Tyros 3, 2 and 1.

In both cases, you NEVER have to press "Execute".

If you had paid more attention to the first half of my video, you would have seen that the first time it worked.

Chony

The volumeproblem does not exist as you will see when you read my message in this thread.
When you talk about problems sometimes it will help when you read the solutions.
The movie was incorrect and so were the conclusions .

I can't believe I need to argue my point about something that is a proven fact. Wis, I have created hundreds of styles for the Tyros, Tyros 2 and Tyros 3. If there is one thing I am an expert on in Tyros, it is style creation.

You tell me to read your solutions, but it seems you didn't read my previous post, so I will paste it here:

"There are 2 ways to edit a style on a Tyros. The first is to do a global edit. You change the mixer settings outside of the Style Creator, open the Style Creator, and simply save. This saves those mixer settings for every part and variation.

The second way is to do a specific edit on a specific part. To do that, you need to be IN the Style Editor.

This is the way it worked on the Tyros 3, 2 and 1.

In both cases, you NEVER have to press "Execute".

If you had paid more attention to the first half of my video, you would have seen that the first time it worked."

And just in case you still want to argue your point, please read the Tyros 4 Owner's Manual, Page 87, number 5, point 2.

In the future do not write condescending posts if you don't know what you're talking about.

Using Mixing Console to change parameters directly is different. If you check my post you'll see that I found similar to chony on Ty4 using the expected procedure for Mixing Console (and saving as a user style in Style Creator).
And against my gut feel I tried alternative ways of doing it, including loading Style Creator first (also trying Execute since that was suggested too) just because someone else suggested that was the "proper" way to do it. It didn't solve the problem

john

UPDATE:

I spoke to Steve Demming this afternoon. He was a little skeptical at first, but over the phone we were able to recreate the memory loss and style volume control problems on his Tyros 4 as well. We were unable to attempt to recreate the sample problems because he had no samples installed on his board.

So unfortunately this looks like a Yamaha system issue.

I was disappointed to learn from Steve that Yamaha Japan takes its time getting back to Yamaha USA, so I hope these videos are somehow making their way to other countries as well.

Chony, I remember feeling the same way when I initially reported to Mr Deming about my Tyros1 USB port flaky un-reliability problem. Unfortunately inconsistent probs like this was difficult to prove, but luckily I was able to convince Yamaha to replace the part, albeit many months later, once I was able to show that other Tyros1 owners had experienced the exact same problem and had their USB port hardware replaced under warranty in their respective Yamaha Country (Germany). That said, I greatly appreciated the expedient repair & turnaround time (and under warranty to boot) Steve Deming and Yamaha USA afforded me.

Chony, thanks to Vid & YouTube, and the worldwide arr forums, your problem should be far more quicker to expedite to Yamaha Japan to get whatever bugs are in Tyros4 corrected, which is a PLUS PLUS not only for you, but the entire Yamaha Tyros4 owner community. Good luck and please KEEP US Posted on developments. Scott

Chony...OK,
IMHO, your best bet is to get the folks in UK to push this issue...YPKO Group
I think Yamaha takes care of them pretty well?

Lee S.

Let me confuse this issue a bit more, either that or I'm confused.


A short time ago I was at both the tyros4 and the s910. I tried to recreate the problems demonstrated in the video called Style Volume.i had some and very surprising results. Both the Tyros4 and s910 would only maintain the changes to RHY1, RHY2 and BASS when I raised the volumes over their default levels. When I attempted to lower all volumes of RHY1, RHY2 and BASS to zero RHY2 and BASS remained at zero but RHY1 seemed to always default to 100. Is it possible this is by design? I don't usually adjust individual style volumes to lower the settings, its usually to raise them. Each time I raised them they seemed to remain at the higher volumes. Fact is it not only happened in T4 but also on the s910............just to see what happened I tried the same on my CVP 307, pretty much similar results.

Chony, I don't own a T4 (yet?) but my T2 requires me to use the Save button in Style Creator 'Assembly Tab', to successfully Save a style. I'm unable to reliably successfully use Save in the 'Basic tab' .

If this is what you're experiencing on T4 too, then perhaps this is simply a longtime frustrating PSR/Tyros OS glitch which has simply never been addressed. Unless or until Yamaha addresses this, simply use the save button in Style Creator 'Assembly Tab'.

Good luck,

Scott

Sorry Scott,

Steve Demming and I tried both ways (from the Assembly and Basic tabs) with the same result.

The problem is that Steve does not know if and how long it will take for Yamaha to address the issue. It seems the Yamaha does not have a great relationship with Yamaha USA.

So there is a problem with the T4 OS Chony?

Is this what Steve told you, Chony?

Ian

Not those exact words. I'm not sure what I can and cannot say publicly on this.

Hi Chony, I discussed your situation on the phone (via Skype) with knowledgeable Yamaha Tyros owner friend, jyvern (UK) earlier today. He confirmed to me that he's able on 'his' Tyros4, to save a style via 'assembly tab, so I'm now wondering if a different (newer?) OS Tyros4 version was included on his Tyros4 vs yours & Steve's (USA). Whatever the case, I hope Yamaha's able to sus this out soon (software update?), as I personally would be unable to tolerate an inability to save edited styles. Chony, good luck & please continue to keep us posted. - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 11-02-2010).]

He has to follow the exact steps I'm doing on the video and I have no doubt he can recreate it.

In short, he needs to take a style which has data recorded in RHY1/RHY2/BASS (for example). Make changes in all 3. The first time he saves everything will be fine.

The problem is the second time. This time, he should only change ONE of the parameters and not even TOUCH the others. If he touches the other parameters (even if he changes it back) this demonstration will not work.

Then he should save it again, and see what happened to the 2 parameters he DID not change in the last edit.

Did you try that style unlock program? I didn't even know there were styles that needed to be unlocked. You can use the program to "unlock" a bulk of styles.
http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/stun/index.htm

Tell us if this works.

Beakybird

Chony,
EXACTLY.

Gilbert.

Chony, I have to admit you were right, there are different ways to edit a style.
Editing global and editing partially.
When editing global does not work you could save the changes you have made in a registration. I know this is not the same but the volumes stay as you set them.
The changes in the software could be caused by the new Mixer element the Drummixer. I do not see this as a Bug.

Chony,here's an update from me:

The results can be variable, which partly explains why some may see a problem while others don't. Even in my case I couldn't repeat the initial results of yesterday. But today I tried again on the same style I tested (preset BigBandJazz) and after an OK save started to get "wrong" volumes on some parts again. (I'm making changes to many parts, not necessarily following your video precisely to the letter).

The strangest thing is if you run the style the bass flips from vol. 44 to 90 to 44 as you change LH chords and you can hear it happening. Note this is with Style Touch off. You don't have to hit at different velocities to produce it- just change to different chords.
Whatever it is seems to be saved in the edited style, because I can load it and it happens again.

Maybe the type of style is important too. The above is a session style. I haven't found a problem yet with a preset Pro style eg. ModBigBandBld. Although I haven't spent long trying.

It's good you have Steve involved.

PS re Stephen's comments above it appears that if a part is not used - and Rhy1 is often not used in Presets - whatever edits you make may not show up in that part. I was finding unused Rhy1 was sticking at 100 on the preset style I used.

John

[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 11-02-2010).]

[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 11-02-2010).]

Style volum and style perameters.

Try This.
I think I have cracked it on my Tyros4,
Follow these instructions and you will be surprised.

1. Select style for edit.

2,Make edits

3. Go into digital record tab to ASSEMBLY then back to BASIC the save instruction button will appear.save from HERE.

4. check settings which should now be okay.all other alterations to the same style are also regognised.

Now works evey time for me.

Gilbert.


[This message has been edited by gilbert (edited 11-02-2010).]

The going "BACK" Step.....the Save for some reason works for me also on my S910......

Gilbert,

Thanks for clarification I'll have to try that this evening.

This morning 'round 5 before heading to the office I tried the procedure I have been using on the Tyros4, S910 and CVP 307,( not the one just outlined by Gilbert) the behavior on all 3 instruments is pretty much the same, when you save a 2nd time the settings to RHY1, RHY2 and BASS do not save according to the latest changes I made. As John brought out in his post RHY1 seems to be all over the place. Bottom line though at least from what I've observed that it's just not limited to the Tyros4.

After more tests on both internal and customs styles
It looks like its back to the drawing board,although the above method does work with many styles, it is still inconsistent with many others.
I post, as I would not wish anyone to be misled by my previous post.However do try it for yourself.

Gilbert.

Dng,
It certainly work for me also covering many style.

I did not think it could be as simple as the way the save was used.Hence I tried many more styles both customs and Preset.

The success with customs styles was consistent however the success with preset styles was not, not all,but a fair number.Which were the more complicated Styles.

Whether this has to do with the make-up of the pre-set styles I am really not sure.

Anyway it certainly needs to be looked at by Yamaha.
Gilbert.

Thanx Gilbert for trying.....it certainly seems to be a Tyros 4 Bug of some sort and I hope Yamaha gets an OS fix owners can upload ASAP.

I normally have Style Touch on which it has been for most of the testing I have reported.

Today I turned it Off and loaded the Session Preset Style I had previously found problems with. Then carried out various volume edits and saves- 5 times. No problem in spite of this having been a problem style before.
Then changed to Style Touch On, loaded the style under those conditions and made 2 more edits and saves. This time both saves did NOT faithfully reproduce all the edits.

With Style Touch still on I loaded a Pro style which previously I had been unable to find a problem with (with ST off). ModBigBandBld

The first save was OK, but the next 2 edits were then NOT faithfully reproduced in the saves.

So I think it would be useful to know the status of Style Touch at the time when others have found a problem saving style volumes.
ie.
Function/Style setting/Style Touch On or Off.

In case there is a common factor and possible pointer to the problem.

john

I never use style touch, in fact I'm not even sure what the purpose of it is... Why would you want each chord to be played at a different volume (including drums). I'm curious which style of music that is good for?

In any case, it seems my problems have been with it off, and yours when on.

Quoting Chony,
"I never use style touch, in fact I'm not even sure what the purpose of it is... Why would you want each chord to be played at a different volume (including drums). I'm curious which style of music that is good for?"

Style touch is a means of introducing some velocity sensitivity to the style parts- but not drums. They rise and fall together. You can keep the level constant or rise to crescendos or maintain a higher level for a few bars depending on the expression you want and the way you play. The sensitivity is not normally as great as is usual with RH voices.
I thought the Ty3 (and prior) styles just had 2 levels (normal and high) but looking at Ty4 there seems to be a more continuous transition between normal and high.
Perhaps a change has been made, and one of the reasons I thought it worth checking.

john

Style Touch is also on the S910, and I find it very useful for certain genres, especially Jazz or Latin.

I'm not sure how many levels of velocity, John, but it appears to be a rather smooth transition from soft to loud.

I believe it goes back to the PSR-2000 at least.

Ian

UPDATE:

According to my discussions on the T4 with Yamaha USA reps, it has been concluded that the issues I've been having are issues in the system. Yamaha has not done due quality control in the release of their flagship.

I was not encouraged by what Yamaha USA has told me about how they think this problem will be dealt with. I was told that it will be at least a week, possibly two, before Yamaha USA will even hear back from Yamaha Japan.

It seems that the purpose of Yamaha USA is sales and they don't respect or really care much for what the USA market wants and needs ... which is quite unfortunate ...

I hope more people see my videos. The more people who see them, the better the chance something will happen.

Hi Chony. I can assure you that your vids are being watched worldwide aleady, including not only the Uk (Ypko folks & Yam UK)) but watched and discussed in Germany as well (Yamaha Germany Forum) as my German Yamaha T4 owner buddy Thilo contacted me today and informed me of this. I trust the quick worldwide publicity your YouTube vids are getting will get Yamaha Japan to get the problem fixed sooner than later. - Scott

Chony, I would like to add that it would be helpful if you made another video in Japanese. You do speak Japanese, don't you?



[This message has been edited by Beakybird (edited 11-04-2010).]

Don't forget to bow first!
:-)
Lee S.

What worries me is that according to YouTube statistics (which are phenomenal tools for monitoring the success and progress of your video), the videos are not being watched in Japan...

I'm assuming that perhaps the keyboard is designed elsewhere? Or is it that Japan just doesn't give a ----.

IMHO,
If some of the YPKO people send in requests to Yamaha for a fix...it will be the best.
Maybe contact them or have Ian do it?
Lee S.

I've contacted Yamaha Canada already (sent this thread)...YPKO already knows.

come on people ! get real. The problem was identified this week. Yamaha USA said that they may here back from Yamaha in a week or two !! Just how quickly did you think this problem wouild be looked at ?????

Someone needs to manage your expectations. If yamaha respond and fix the problem in a couple of months then thats quick service by any standards. The faults that have been identified whilst important to you are not critical to the functioning of the keyboard and to probably 98% of the users of the instrument. What yamaha are likely to do is wait afew months to see if there are any other bugs reported and then send an OS update to mop up most of the problems.

Dont be too upset if they dont resolve each and every fault that is reported the week that it is reported !!!

+1 great post spalding.

I agree that Chony might have to manage expectations. Nevertheless, the types of problems he is having are for pretty basic types of functions:

1. Saving a user style and having the levels jump around.
2. Saving a user style and having the file directory disappear.
3. Using a sampled voice and having the volume fluctuate.

I would be pissed off if my keyboard were doing this. Hopefully, Chony can find a workaround while he waits, but I wouldn't characterize these problems as minor.

Don't worry, Yamaha will come through, but it might take a couple of months.

Beakybird

Another problem: The mic preamp and too low output level compared to the keyboard levels.

After adjusting the MIC gain (no distortion) its volume cannot be set high enough, so the keyboard level faders need to be lowered to 80-90.... pretty annoying.

Unfortunately the 'two step' adjustment (both mic input and preamp output) was modified to a one-step configuration.... bad choise, unless an OS update can raise the mic preamp level with 10-15 dB's

Correction: The mic level can be raised with the help of the build-in Compressors and the problem is no problem anymore.

[This message has been edited by kla4 (edited 11-04-2010).]

lets hope they have it fixed by the
S920 release.

Hi Roel. How'z life in the Netherlands? I can definitely understand how annoying this prob must be for you. Thanks for filling us in on it. I trust you've contacted Yamaha Europe and that Yamaha Japan released an OS update fix for this sooner rather than later. Best to you and your family. - Scott

Hi Scott,

We're OK in the Netherlands, autumnleaves all over. I enjoy the T4 very much and just found the mic compressor does a good job to put the extra dB's in. No distortion ... so it can be removed from the punchlist.

Did you order the T4?

Roel

Of course it takes some time...the concern I have is that the right people in Yamaha are informed in detail of he problem, can reproduce it, then they can and will resolve it.

Being in Information Technology for 40 years...I sure do understand how it works.

Is there a formal way Yamaha expects problem to be reported Ian??
If not...there should be.
This applies to all...not just Yamaha.

With Korg, we have found it is best to go through the Country's distributor.

Lee S.

No special protocol, but haste and accuracy of reporting is foremost.

I have someone to which I send my reports, observations and clinic/demo results.

Ian

Many companies do take some time to compile a 'bug' list before executing fixes by issuing a new OS ... patience, it will be done, once recognized.

Wow AJ,

I would have kept my head below the parapet on this one, all Audya owners will be watching this one to see if Yamaha move faster than Ketron on fixes. We will see! Still I bet 97% of T4 owners will never know they have a problem, they just play the KB and don’t go this deep in. Bet Diki won’t be having a T4 for Christmas, just slippers again this year for him!

I guess I'm from the 2% who has an expensive $3500 paperweight sitting in my house...

For myself and many of my ethnic contacts around the world (Jewish, Turkish, Arabic, etc), the T4 is useless. We do not use the preset styles in the Yamaha and rely completely on its customization.

I'm not sure why you think a company should have more than a week to get back on what I believe are serious issues. And a couple of months to fix it? That's out of the question for me.

The way I look at it, I bought a faulty product. I am doing everything in my power to not have to burden Frank by returning this to him, but I simply cannot wait "months" for a fix. I'm not sure how you are doing financially, but I cannot afford to have two Tyros keyboards right now.

Many companies would love to have you as a customer. You are very fortunate to be able to claim that you could plonk down thousands of dollars for something you can't use, and be satisfied to wait months for a fix, and even praise them for the quick service... Unfortunately I'm not in that position. I either need a quick fix or my money back :-(

(For the record: I'd prefer the fix.)

[This message has been edited by chony (edited 11-05-2010).]

Yamaha UK have responded about retaining paths by recommending anyone who has this problem should save a system file (presumably after setting up the paths required).

Paths are now being retained on my Ty4- although I didn't save a system file.
Here is what I posted on another Forum:

"When I realised yesterday not everyone was finding this a problem I set up 2 style buttons to paths that I wanted. Turned off - but only for 2 minutes - then back on and they were retained for that time.
Tyros has been off overnight and I've just checked, the paths are still there. And I didn't make a system file. Presumably Tyros has somehow been prompted to make its own automatically, which it hadn't done before (in my case).

I seem to recall in the mists of time that on Ty3 (or Ty2) I was unable to retain paths at first, but then after a time it was no longer an issue and I didn't think any more about it- till now "

john

[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 11-05-2010).]

Chony:

Did you try that style unlock software? That might help with the levels jumping around.

Did you try saving styles to USB? The latter would be the solution to the style path disappearing from USER memory.

Beakybird

The paths which initially failed to be retained in my case - but now OK. see above - were on the USB stick.

john

No Chony . You misunderstand me. I sympathise with your situation and appreciate that its a problem for you. Maybe even an insurmountable problem for you. But its a pretty specialised problem and it is totally unrealistic for you to think yamaha or any other maufacturer will fix this problem for you in a week. Especially as there maybe another few reports of other bugs to come in as more users start to get into the instrument. Thats just not realistic no matter how hopefull you may be. If the instrument is completely unplayable and if a couple of months is impractical for you to wait for the problem to be fixed , then the answer is send it back to frank , get your money back and buy what you had before or something else. Its not nice but its the only answer for you because no company will resolve a software or hardware problem that was only detected this week....next week. Thats what i mean by saying get real. I wasnt trying to belittle your problem. sorry if it came accross that way mate.

Hi Roel

A nice relief to learn that the mic output level's no longer a problem.



Almost, but not quite yet. Though my old Tyros2 continues to deliver the goods 4 my music performance needs, I also realize it's time to seriously consider upgrade options. Having finally played it, I believe Yamaha's finally got it together live sound wise, especially drums & overall balance, but I first need to wait until Chony's problem is addressed & corrected by Yamaha Japan, because the style edit/save function is as important to me as Chony. The other thing that's keeping me on the sideline are the 'substantiated' rumors flying around that Korg's releasing a new TOTL arr soon. That could be a killer keyboard especially if it incorporates karma and/or M3 features.

Roel, are you still working with Wietse? It would be a treat to hear a song with you two recorded on your new Tyros4. Wishing you many musically productive years with T4! - Scott