YAMAHA T3 STYLES + KETRON SD2 SOUNDS

Hey

One of the vArranger user told me that the yamaha styles are sounding far better on the Ketron SD2 than on the Tyros itself !

I am too really impressed about the good quality of the yamaha orchestrations. And played on the Ketron SD2, it sounds now more real !

Yamaha tyros 3 styles + Ketron SD2 sounds is a best sounding choice.

The vArranger software have a special algorythm to "unmegavoice" and plays perfectly the new SFF2 guitars chords from the Tyros 3.

Also, the soundset and the drums mapping were adapted to give the best sounding results possible on the Ketron SD2.

You will just not believe it !

Just tell me the name of the styles you want me to record in mp3

Dan

You choose 4-5 styles and showcase. You may also try a head to head comparison, with the same style played with the SD2 and the Yamaha

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 10-25-2010).]

Just tell me the name of the styles of your Yamaha Keyboard, that you are very accoutumed, so that you can compare by your ears...

Dan

Maybe pick some from this list. This would be a pretty good cross selection of styles:

Big Band Fast 1
English Waltz
6/8 Slow Rock
Bolero Lento
Cha Cha
Cntry Sing-A-Long
Combo Boogie
Country Shuffle
Country Waltz
Ober Polka 2
Orchestra Swing 1
Rock & Roll 2
Rumba
Tango 1
Viennese Waltz 1

Any progress on the Virtual SD2?

Scott http://ScottLMusic.com

Just post some styles we'll be the judge...

post the original followed by the Sd2 ones....

So, I'm wondering whatever happened to the demos with Yamaha styles? I was really looking forward to this and considering the possibility of getting a Varranger.

I have been to the Varranger site a number of times and didn't see anything related to this.

This would be a good time for an update with this Roland arranger model coming out. Maybe some price adjusting will come about because of this.

Maybe eventually the Varranger could use Roldand and Korg styles yet. This would be interesting.

And wasn't James talking on a thread about a virtual SD2 software? Another great idea.

Maybe in reality the Yamaha styles didn't sound better with the Varranger than the Tyros 3? That's a pretty strong claim. Maybe Yamaha said nix to this idea?

What happened?

Dan.2000,
Where are the demos you promised?
Thanks,

Hi !!

I just loaded the Tyros 4 MovieSoundTrack.prs style into vArranger played on my Ketron SD4.

I recorded some chords, and moved thru the intros, variations Fills and ending.

Listen to the final MP3 :

http://www.varranger.com/demo/vArrangerTyros4MovieSoundTrack.mp3

what do you think about it...??

Hi Dan
I wonder that since I own vArranger and an Audya 76, if I can play converted styles on my Audya with live drums etc. ?

Bernie

Hi, what do you mean? to put Yamaha Tyros 4 styles into the Audya , so it can play them? NO you can't.

But maybe, you can plug vArranger midi out on the Audya Midi In(GM) to try how thoses yamaha styles are sounding on the Audya.

Dan

I thought maybe the Tyros styles were converted to Ketron with the vArranger and could be saved as a Ketron style, allowing the Ketron Audya to play them direct. The answer is evidently no.

Just a wild thought.
Thanks

No, vArranger own internally 2 independant engines to play Ketron styles and Yamaha styles. There is no conversion. The goal was to play Ketron styles exactly as played on a Ketron Keyboard, and Yamaha styles as played by Yamaha Keybs. You must know that Yamaha and Ketron have internally a very different way to generate the automatic accompaniment. Any conversion will remove some parts of the Styles.

OK Scott !!

I just recorded a small mp3 demo with the fisrt style from your wish list !


You can hear the Tyros 4 style BigBandFast1.prs played by vArranger and Ketron SD4 here :

http://www.varranger.com/demo/vArrangerTyros4BigBandFast1.mp3

Dan

i'd like to hear it next to the actual tyros style please

I don't have the Tyros 4

But here is the Yamaha 50s Big Band....

Sounds about 70% better to me...

http://www.yamahamusicsoft.com/ofs/product/sample/files/e/6/e6cc3c283fb9e5b903f57efb4523ea1a.MP3.mp3

Sounds EXACTLY like an SD2. I DID own one for a while. Sold it because I thought it sounded pretty ordinary really, for the money I paid. Good decent sounds yes, but nothing to make anyone go "wow".

To try and compare a SD2 to the Tyros 4, is well, silly!!

There is none. SD2 is a bread and butter GM module, sounds are dated and only sound acceptable when in ensemble playing, as is the case with the demos.

Dennis

Well, you are comparing a factory demo to essentially a 'user' demo, for one thing, then not the same style.

I still want to hear those head to heads.

From listening to the vArranger demo, I think perhaps Dan needs to take a look at some volume offsets. It's obvious that the horns got buried in the intro on his version, but then again, without the original, it's tough to be sure.

But here, in many ways, is the whole problem with the idea. To get an accurate translation, it's not enough just to line up the samples. You HAVE to get the velocity response curve AND the volume CC curves (AND the reverb/chorus/delay curves) to line up dead right...

You see, there's nothing in the MIDI spec that specifies HOW CC7 affects the volume. Is it linear? Is it logarithmic? Is it somewhere in between? There's nothing in the MIDI spec that determines HOW velocity will affect a note... just that it get louder. But by how MUCH? And with what curve?

And each arranger manufacturer is slightly different. So plug one's translated style into another's engine, and you can STILL have unbalanced styles. Heck, it even happens when you plug legacy styles from the SAME arranger manufacturer into a far more modern arranger. Getting the sounds to line up is just the BEGINNING...

Dennis your quote is true....but...considering the example is a converted Tyos4 style to the SD2 format....it is pretty good....

If you want to see how well it came out..Do the reverse..try a converted Ketron or Roland style to Yamaha format, and play that on a Tyros4....It won't be anywhere as good as Dan's demo..If most of the conversion to SD2 sounds this good..it is more than useable..

BTW: Dennis..how do you evaluate and come up with a specific percentage of improvement ..I understand better, or much better..but 70 percent better makes me think too much..


I think Dan's program has a lot of merit and his offer to continue improving the program with free updates..reminds me of Domenic's support..

How's that Bass Inversion thingy coming along for you, Fran?

Yes I totally agree Fran his vArranger is really REALLY good software. I have never said any different.

I am only trying to emphasise that trying to compare his vArranger+SD2 module to a Tyros 4 is silly. Again it cannot be done as the T4 is so far in front, that really it could become laughable. NOT the software or SD2, just trying to put it even in the same park!!

I am just trying to look at it WITHOUT the rose-coloured glasses that Dan and his customers would have all of us here at SZ use.

As for the 70%, well the T4 is not 100% better, and it is certainly more than 50%, so by taking those two divide by seven, multiply by ten, subtract 15, multiply by 33...no, wait, or is it divide by 2 multiply by 13, subtract 8, no, wait it must be......ahhh yes I have it now...

It was just a good guess

Dennis

Yamaha Tyros 4 own an amazing effects module + strong synths caps + the megavoices + SA2... so you will never get the same results if you don't have a Tyros or an emulation who does'nt exists today.

It's just cool to be able to play Ketron styles with their live drums, and play Yamaha T4 styles that you like on one touch of a button, on the same system.

It's not 100% perfect with Yamaha styles, but useable. It's 100% perfect with Ketron styles on Ketron sound modules.

Diki, I lowered a little bit thoses intro horns, because I prefer like that, but your are the second one who tell me that they are undermixed so maybe it's my ear...

The curves you are telling are now more specified in the latest official GM documents. But not all manufacturers are following them.

What I usually do when I want to use a style for my styleset, is remixing a little bit the volumes pan & FX to be perfect to my ear. It is very easy on vArranger, because everything is on the screen. You move some faders & kobs on the screen and save the style.

Note that the Yamaha style is never converted by vArranger, but played as it should be by the Tyros 4, with some algorytms to adapt them to Ketron SD2 and GM/XG synths.

Maybe vArranger should play perfectly the Yamaha styles on the Motif XF rack

No it won't, as the sounds structure is different for a start. As are all the insert MFX, and there are only a handful of SA sounds on the Motif XS, XF racks. Well, compared to the Tyros anyway.

Even the drumkits are different.

Dennis

Doubt it, Dan. It was tried some while ago to play T2 styles into a MoES module, but the mapping of the Mega-voice sounds that OUGHT to be identical just aren't. The Left Hand of Yamaha knoweth not what the Right Hand doeth...!

What you MIGHT try to do is have a background 'scaler' for volume and reverb and the like. I imagine, what MOST people would really like is to just plug in the style, and not have to do ANYTHING for it to sound its' best (if the style sounded its best in the original instrument). If you are constantly doing the same adjustments (a piano too loud, a bass too quiet, a snare drum too upfront) or making the same reverb adjustments (your Pirates sounded MUCH drier than the Yamaha version), then these offsets should be stored, and applied in the background.

And, as this is a business for you, buying a T4 would be a legitimate write-off for you. Having the original to compare to will give you a HUGE leg up on tweaking this stuff RIGHT...

BTW, if you could tweak Yamaha Tyros styles to CORRECTLY use MotifXS/XF Mega-voice sounds, you could have a product that would sell VERY well indeed. Lots of Motif owners wishing their WS could do arranging, too...

Sorry Diki, but this really cannot be achieved with any great success. Well, at least, I could not get it working to my satisfaction.

I owned a Motif rack Es, and a rack XS, and I tried doing just what you are suggesting using a Tyros 2 I owned for a while.

The results were "very average"....There is just something about the whole structure of the Tyros series, that just does not lend itself easily to mimicry!!

I could get excellent results pumping out from the PA1xPro I owned...But then, the PA does not have Mega or SA voices or the other "under the hood" programming data that is so much a part of Yamaha styles.

I guess if someone wanted to spend a week on converting just one style, then you could get a good useable result, but one week for one style??? Don't know about anyone else, but I have better things to do with my time

Yes Diki, it's what I try to do with vArranger and Ketron SD2/SD4.
With this module, vArranger try to do everything for the musician, so he just have to load the style and play.

You can select the synth module connected to vArranger, and it will try to do the best.

For now the options are : GM / GM2 / GS / XG / KETRON SD2 / KETRON SD4.

I implements new modules as clients need them.

I am not sure about the Motif megavoices, but I can remap if there is a need

The Tyros 4 will stay at it's high place ! And congratulation to Yamaha for thoses inspiring styles

Dan, thanx for the demo. Your software sounds like it's really doing it's job of copying the Yamaha style with Ketron sounds. Of course the Tyros sounds better, but for this kind of software last I heard you are light years ahead of the other couple out there.

Hope to hear some more.

Thank you scott
New demos are coming.
Keep asking for Yamaha or Ketron style demos

Dan, if you can successfully remap Yamaha Mega-voices, I would SERIOUSLY take a look at offering your software to MotifXF users. The combination of FULL mega-voiced styles with the MoXF's chord following arpeggiator would be a VERY powerful combination.

And, I would still take a serious listen to default sound and effect balances. There is room for improvement, I think, with those offsets. Essentially, you plug a Yamaha style into the Ketron player, and at least the BALANCE and reverb and chorus depths should sound as close as is possible.

The proof of the pudding is taking a stock, default Yamaha style (no user tweaks, stock Tyros Part settings) and playing it untouched into the stock Ketron module. If you can get those parts to 'sit' right and have the same degree of 'space' around them, you are on the right track.

Give that MotifXF suggestion a serious think, though. I honestly believe half of us here would happily step up to a WS, if we didn't have to leave TRUE arranger capability behind to do so...

The big work is already done.

I am ok to customise some tunning options, for every models of WorkStations, if user need them.

I don't think it will interrest arranger musicians, but more, people who want to add the arranger feature on their owned workstations

Dan,
Is there any possibility that this will/can be ported to an iPad?

If that is possible, I would certainly buy the program! No further negotiation needed

Have you had many enquiries re the iPad? Enough to make it a possible project?

Thanks
Dennis

I have got a lot of questions about vArranger on iPad !

If Midem will buy it without negotiation, it is fore sure a good project

I am personnaly not sure that I will get back the investment in term of money and time.

I want to wait and see the iPad2...

Also, a lot of Win7 tablets are going out thoses times.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/04/asus-eee-slate-ep121-officially-unveiled-ips-display-core-i5-a/

Think about it too

Dan

Thanks for the link...worth looking at..

So your program will run happily on any of the W7 tablets coming out this year?

Or indeed the Android platform (ver 3)?

Dennis

Only Windows.

Think about USB port to connect your keyboard and your sound module.

SSD should be good, because, no noise, and no sensible to shocks

Yes I am pretty sure the iPad 2 will have NO USB port, even a mini one.

I use the camera connect kit and an Edirol UM1sx on my iPad. I also have the option of using the Line 6 Midi Mobiliser.

But the W7 tablets being released this year look interesting, although battery life is still only half of the iPad...Until they can get that sorted I think they will stay well behind iPad

Dennis

It's not a problem for me. When I gig, I always plug the POWER

Do you have any news when the Mediastation Rack will be released?
Maybe we can do something interesting with vArranger

Dan

Dan as far as I know the rack is being released at Musik Messe...

I am getting one, so it was why I am becoming interested in your programme.....

If we can get it to work on the Groove Rack flawlessly, well then again, I will happily buy it at your asking price

I have been an owner of Lionstracs gear for several years, and I am very au faix with it's OS, and reasonable with Linux as well

OS 5, is going to be so far in front!!!

When I get my Groove I would be quite happy to run some form of limited test version of vArranger and assist in getting it ported correctly.

I am doing the same for the PA2xPro and the iPad.

Dennis

Look Dan, if you can plug a T4 style into a MoXF with this software, and have it come out sounding pretty much like the T4, you are going to sell a BOATLOAD of programs if you market it right...

A) MoXF's come in 76 and 88 sized keyboards
B) MoXF's basic sounds are far better (in some sounds) than T4 (to be fair a few T4 sounds are better, also)
C) MoXF has full multitrack audio and loop and arp capabilities

If it played Yamaha T4 styles properly, it would be almost a no-brainer (and be cheaper, too) for those of us not looking for a simple 'home keyboard'.

Hi Dan,
how did you manage to get around the difference in the SD2 GM & Live Drums versus the Yamaha XG mapped drums.

The biggest headache I have when converting a Yamaha style across to my Korg is the drums.
With the korg , I could at least create some drum kits that match the Yamaha Drum Mapping, but wouldn't really have that option with the SD2.

For instance, there's a number of yamaha styles that use brush sounds, even though it's not using the actual brush kits.( ie there's brush sounds as part of the xg standard kits that are not available in GM standard kits)
Do the brush sounds just get left out? or are they played as some other type of drum sound.

best wishes
Rikki

Diki,

I just downloaded the MotifXF documentation. I am sot sure that the Tyros megavoices and drum kits are mapped the same way. We need to try it.

Rikki, you don't have to do anything, vArranger is doing the right mapping, depending on the module connected, and the drum kit selected.

Dan

Well, that's what I thought your software did...

If it doesn't do a remap of the kits and megavoices, how does it even deal with the more minor differences between Ketron and Yamaha drum maps?

Things like EMC and the like, they have little look-up tables, so, when the style original says play Eb2 for a clap, and the destination arranger says play a Ab1 for a clap, the software changes it. You REALLY need this if you haven't already got it, then you create lookup tables for different products, and the same software can address a large variety of different destination keyboards and modules (this is also how you would remap for different Mega-voice layouts).

This is probably where you would apply any velocity curve and volume curve offsets, too.

Maybe this is a bit more complicated than your current program, but doing it enables you to sell the product to a MUCH wider market...

Most WS users don't HATE arrangers. They just mostly hate how dumbed down they are compared to the WS they have. If a piece of software allows them to use styles AND what is best about their WS, you bet your sweet *** they are going to buy it!

Hey Diki, man you are really pushing this "getting this software to work with a Motif" theme. It seems you are re-hashing it everytime you make a comment on this thread

Give the guy a break and let him investigate....He has the idea, he has indicated it is a good one, he has said he will look at it..

Sorry m8, but you remind me of Bart and Lisa " can we go dad, can we go dad , can we go dad, can we go dad, can we go dad..." you get the picture!!

Dennis

PS: I'm not dissing ya!! Just saying

I would like to listen to a demo of Tyros styles played with a Ketron SD2 (not the SD4 which is more expensive)

Diki, when you remap the megavoices, you loose something !

For the Ketron SD2, I did a lot of work on the remapping. I will not say all my secrets

I thought that the Motif XF megavoices are the same as the Tyros ones, so you DONT NEED any remapping, but I then think NO.

Diki, what keyboards do you have? do you have a WS?

I am personnaly ready, as always, if someone want to use vArranger, and have special needs that are going on the good direction, to add features to vArranger to suit needs.

Not tehoricals needs, but true musicians needs

vArranger was born with hard pressure of musicians on me. It's not easy to live with, but the result is amazing

Dan

I own the 2 modules.
Ketron SD2 and SD4 have the exact same sound table.

I however discovered that the SD4 sound is more defined, maybe due to a better DA converters, it is more spaced. The SD2 sound is more compact but is more PUNCHY.

SD4 seems a little bit faster than SD4, in case of high midi demand. but SD2 seems more stable.

SD4 by USB seems to have a problem with the Window 7. I have to find the exact sysex and NRPN midi message who is creating the SD4 bug, and tell it to Ketron. I hope they will release a driver for Win7. For now I use it by MIDI not USB.

SD2 is smaler in size, but own RCA outputs.

I am still not sure if I prefer SD2 or SD4

Dan

As I said earlier Dan, when I get the Groove Rack, I will be happy to see if we can get it mapped for use with vArranger.

I will send you an email when I get it and we can go from there hey?

Dennis

ok midem

The two WS's I use at the moment are a K2500S (and X at the studio) and a Triton. Both are great studio tools, but live, I prefer the convenience of the arranger. They just seem better set up for live. But sound-wise, no contest... A modern TOTL WS (MoXF, Kronos, etc.) can take on any arranger. But those bloody chord following arps just don't cut it as an arranger substitute.

It was reported maybe two or more years ago that Tyros Mega-voices vary quite differently between arranger and WS lines. The Left Hand of Yamaha, and all that! Someone tried to play a T2 into a Motif ES Rack. they just don't line up. But if something can remap them, you are good to go. From what I have read, Yamaha's WS's keep a pretty consistent map between their models, so I imagine that if you map for a MoXF, you probably have XS and ES covered, too...