Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?.......

Posted by: Dnj

Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 01:02 PM

Even though So many people
HATE THE DRUMS & constantly complain about having the "LIVE IN YOUR FACE" sound.......? So you'll have 76 keys and lousy drums to your ears?...
I dont get it? At this rate the Audya 76 is your only choice for that Live Sounding Drums.....or am I missing something here?
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 01:13 PM

It's yin and yang, Donny. Sure, you might lose a bit of punch in the drums (and who says it's wrong to complain about something so easily fixable, with a sampler on board?) but you would gain many things to compensate...

For me, it's more about getting a 76 PSR, as close in sound as they are to the Tyros, at a FAR more affordable price. I've said for a VERY long time that I would LOVE a 76 PSR. Bumping up the drum level on every style isn't going to be THAT hard a job, and that would go 50% or more to addressing the problem. For the SA sounds, and Mega guitars, it would be an acceptable trade-off, particularly if I used it for background restaurant type gigs.

But the keyboard SIZE is the deal-breaker, for me. My style and needs dictate that above almost all else. So I wait. And complain. And complain. And complain...!

One day, Yamaha is going to wake up to the fact that not JUST low-end arranger players want a 76... That's all they make, right now. But one day...

In Jerusalem!

(BTW, I wouldn't count out Korg for a good 'live' drum sound without the drawbacks of audio drums, or even a nice used G70 or E80!)
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 01:18 PM

Simple question Donny, requires a simple answer...

YES!!

Dennis
Posted by: captain Russ

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 01:22 PM

Another simple answer-NO!


R.
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 01:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
It's yin and yang, Donny. Sure, you might lose a bit of punch in the drums (and who says it's wrong to complain about something so easily fixable, with a sampler on board?) but you would gain many things to compensate...

For me, it's more about getting a 76 PSR, as close in sound as they are to the Tyros, at a FAR more affordable price. I've said for a VERY long time that I would LOVE a 76 PSR. Bumping up the drum level on every style isn't going to be THAT hard a job, and that would go 50% or more to addressing the problem. For the SA sounds, and Mega guitars, it would be an acceptable trade-off, particularly if I used it for background restaurant type gigs.

But the keyboard SIZE is the deal-breaker, for me. My style and needs dictate that above almost all else. So I wait. And complain. And complain. And complain...!

One day, Yamaha is going to wake up to the fact that not JUST low-end arranger players want a 76... That's all they make, right now. But one day...

In Jerusalem!

(BTW, I wouldn't count out Korg for a good 'live' drum sound without the drawbacks of audio drums, or even a nice used G70 or E80!)


Diki fair enough......but another major concern in the 76 key saga is the KEYFEEL.....so lets say Yamaha makes a TYROS 5 with 61/76.......then people will complain that the key-feel sux and is too light, spongy or whatever and that cannot be fixed. And so it continues, compromises up the wazoo, it will never end....it's always something. There are a few good choices out there but it's up to you to evaluate, audition, and see which of the compromises YOU will endure on which unit.
meanwhile practice, perform, enjoy & learn new things about what you use now and see down the road what turns up.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-08-2010).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 01:25 PM

Another simple answer...

Just what exactly was the question?
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 01:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Another simple answer...

Just what exactly was the question?


Id say "jealousy" is also involved as if the tyros was just so so in the sound department no one would care how many keys it had... Each complaint is an attribution & acknowledgment to how great the Tyros SOUND is....now whats the next complaint?
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 01:41 PM

Would I buy a 76 Tyros4?

Honestly..NO..

Not only are they over priced..but there are still too many things I do not care for..mainly the overall sound and operating system...Yes one can get use to it, but I choose not to...

I am making this decision based on what I know about my short lived Tyros 3...
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 01:44 PM

Would I Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?.......

Nope.

However, if the keys were weighted hammer action, like on the p-85 or DGX, I would consider it, but not as a gigging arranger, but more of a studio piece.

Ian
Posted by: Scottyee

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 01:45 PM

I'd personally like a 76 note Tyros for playing those occasional solo piano tunes, but 'only' if Yamaha can preserve the current case dimensions of the T1/2/3/4 and not add more than 5 lbs to the current T4 weight, and from what I can caluculate, it's technically possible. As it's been brought to Yamaha's attention many times (by me and others), its clear Yamaha's got no interest in producing a 76 note 'portable' arranger now, especially after the disastrous sales of the their 76 note 9000 Pro. Why would they want to repeat that? AFterall, Yamaha's markets Tyros as an 'arranger' keyboard specifically created for auto accomp style arranger playing, not solo piano playing, and 61 notes suits this fine for me.

Scott Yee Entertainment
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 01:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
but another major concern in the 76 key saga is the KEYFEEL.....so lets say Yamaha makes a TYROS 5 with 61/76.......then people will complain that the key-feel sux and is too light, spongy or whatever and that cannot be fixed. And so it continues, compromises up the wazoo, it will never end....


Never has, never will. Life is entirely about compromise! Bottom line for me is, I can tolerate a lightweight action more than I can tolerate the loss of 15 notes!

Trust me, I have probably complained, on the Suggest New Features forum over at Roland-arranger.com, more about my G70 than anyone who doesn't have a Yamaha has complained about Yamaha here! There are just as many compromises I have to make to use a G70 as I would have to to use a Yamaha. But picking and choosing WHICH compromises you are willing to make and which you are not is basically the selection process!

All things being equal, yes, of COURSE I (and probably everyone else here) would prefer a nice feeling keyboard to a spongy one. But PSR's aren't THAT spongy... If I HAD to play one if that's all they had in a 76, I'd probably do it. And so would possibly many more here who complain about the same thing, given that, once you rule out the PSR simply because of the 61 factor, might as well complain about everything else, too!

Everyone here makes compromises. The fun is, arguing about WHICH ONES we can accept or not
Posted by: chony

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 02:12 PM

POST DELETED. (Sorry I thought you were asking a question but then I read the post...)

[This message has been edited by chony (edited 10-08-2010).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 02:22 PM

Sorry, response deleted... I thought you were making a point...!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-08-2010).]
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 02:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Scottyee:
Tyros as an 'arranger' keyboard specifically created for auto accomp style arranger playing, not solo piano playing, and 61 notes suits this fine for me.

Scott Yee Entertainment


Understandably so Scott good point!
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 04:10 PM



Notice how much space is on the left side to make Tyros 4 a 76 key unit?...
Posted by: Anthony Johnson

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 04:28 PM

YES - If I decide to update from my Tyros3, I would prefer a 76 to a 61, as long as the keyboard wasn't stretched too much.

The 76 Audya is only around the same length as my Technics KN7000, due to no wasted space at either end so I would welcome the chance of more keys in this space.
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 05:04 PM

Answer to question is Yes. As long as it is not bigger than the T4.
That would eliminate having to take my XS 76 when I need to play styles and have 76 keys.
I would even buy a PSR S with 76 keys.

The drums would not matter to me because I don’t use onboard styles. As long as I could edit the drum kits with EQ and compression life would be good.
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 06:16 PM

Yes...right now...however IF Korg hits a big home run soon.then NO.

Also, the PA2XPRO is only 4 inches longer than a T3...there's plenty of room to make 76 wthout making it much if any longer.
The PA is 6 lbs heavier..BUT it is metal and wood..not plastic. The Motif XF6 vs the XF7 is only 3.5 lbs different!!

Lee S.


Lee S.
Posted by: cassp

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 07:06 PM

76 keys would entice me, but the price tag would probably keep me away, unless I was playing more often than I do. And I'm pretty happy playing as much as I do now.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 07:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cassp:
76 keys would entice me, but the price tag would probably keep me away, unless I was playing more often than I do. And I'm pretty happy playing as much as I do now.


I would imagine as well, Cassp, that those who say they would buy a 76 note Tyros4, may balk at the price...no doubt it would be higher than a 5 octave instrument.

How much?

Hard to say.

How much more was the PA2XPro over a PA-800?

Ian
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 08:18 PM

XF6 = $2400
XF7 = $3100

$700 difference.

But a MIDI keyboard of high quality the diference is only $200..so it would not have to be $700 if Yamaha would be reasonable about it.

Lee S.
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/08/10 08:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Id say "jealousy" is also involved as if the tyros was just so so in the sound department no one would care how many keys it had... Each complaint is an attribution & acknowledgment to how great the Tyros SOUND is....now whats the next complaint?



I have actually not made ONE complaint about the Tyros or the PSR910 Donny...You are using a pretty wide brush there

I am told the Tyros keyfeel is similar to the FSX keybed on the Motif XS/XF so that would be fine with me

Dennis
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 03:20 AM

Donny, are you 'jealous' of every feature you like on other arrangers that isn't on the S910?

Or, when feeling exactly the same way as many of us, you use a less inflammatory description of that desire? No one arranger has it ALL. You've made your opinion public about certain things you'd like to see from other arrangers making it to the PSR series. Did anyone call YOU 'jealous'?

I don't remember that...
Posted by: keybplayer

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 09:37 AM

I already said I would have bought a 76 key T4 if the Drum Kits were up to snuff but apparently they're not, at least from what I've heard over the internet anyway. Maybe hearing them live in person could convince me otherwise I dunno. But NO 76 keys so that settles that right?

As you recall we did an online Poll to determine who preferred 76 keys vs. 61 keys and it tallied up at roughly 50% either way. So in all practicality Yamaha is missing basically 50% of the potential arranger market by refusing to cater to that other half who prefer 76 keys (or even 88 keys) for that matter.

Yamaha, in my opinion, is stubborn to the core and unless there is a major hierarchy shift with more "opened minded" consumer "friendly" personnel put in charge at Yamaha Music Division we can probably kiss any 76 key totl arranger goodbye until such a time as that occurs, if it ever does.

What I surmise is happening is some big shots from Yamaha check in here at Synthzone occasionally (as Steve Deming has alluded to) and they try to get a feel as to what we want in an arranger. Because we (me included) have given Yamaha a hard time on occasion and we (me included) have at times lambasted Yamaha for their "indifference" to keyboardists wanting more ivory to play on than the paltry 61 keys that all Tyros succumb to, perhaps Yamaha sees our bickering which has all been done in good nature but Yamaha has taken offense at it apparently, and they have seen the strong emotions rallied toward them and since Japanese are pacifists who do not like strong dialogue or to be confronted in such an opposing manner (with critical critiquing apparently) I really think Yamaha has taken it "personally" and they actually take pleasure in thumbing their noses at us i.e. - the consumer(s) who want more than they're willing to give i.e. 76 keys, better Drum Kits etc., for their totl arranger model. I could be wrong but that is my suspicion anyway.

So perhaps if we (me included) had taken a different approach, and instead, sucked up to them Big Time (which apparently stokes their egos I reckon) then maybe we could have already had a 76 key Tyros with better Drum Kits somewhere down the line e.g. Tyros3, etc.

In conclusion, Yamaha has perhaps succumbed to a personal vendetta against those they (Yamaha) perceives as their enemies i.e. those who use strong emotional appeals to try and change Yamaha's mind and policy regarding their top end arranger line. In retaliation, Yamaha continues to simply ignore the pleas of those whom they perceive as their enemies i.e. - anybody who wants 76 keys or better Drum Kits or who uses strong emotional appeals to get through to their thick skulls... or or or... you get the picture.

Thank God that there are other arranger keyboard manufacturers out there who don't take a liking to personal vendettas against their consumer base(s) such as Korg, Ketron, Casio and Roland. Although since Yamaha is "king of the hill" in overall sales of keyboard products they may feel empowered to "squash" any opposing dissent and still not feel financially threatened in any way. In other words, their bottom line isn't negatively impacted in any substantial way because they're able to 'snooker' (hoodwink) gobs of people into buying each successive (and cosmetically incremental) 61 key Tyros - with mediocre Drum Kits - with each new model that they introduce. People keep buying them so Yamaha keeps making them = the same, with minor improvements, with only 61 keys, and with mediocre Drum Kits, etc. As they laugh all the way to the Bank I might add too. What is that saying again?... "a sucker is born every minute?" Is that what Yamaha is relying on to continue to fuel their 61 key arranger keyboard business? Let's hope not... but you be the judge.

All the best,
Mike
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 09:57 AM

The bottom line still is that Yamaha aren't going to make a 76 note TOTL or MOTL arranger until they feel there is a decent market for one, not just go by a few people on a forum, most of which would not buy a Yamaha no matter how many keys it has.
Many won't buy because they don't like the Yamaha sound to begin with, so what's next...a revamp of tone generators?

Don't be silly.

Six or ten, or even twenty, people on this forum saying they might buy a 76 note Yamaha arranger still may not be enough impetus to move Yamaha from their 61 note only position on the Tyros...do you think?

Even on Yamaha only forums, the people wanting 76 keys is in the single digits.

Can't imagine these numbers influencing Yamaha to change the Tyros to 76.

In conclusion, I can say I would buy a Lexus station wagon if they made one, but that doesn't mean I would actually buy one.

As I said, and will say again...talk is cheap...see the above post for an example.

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 10:12 AM

Talk is cheap. So I guess Iana is saying that the few persons who say they would not buy a good Yamaha 76 key arranger and who own a Yamaha 61 key good arranger should be dismissed by Yamaha.

You can’t tell me that if the T4 had the same features as it does now, person who bought or will by the T4 would not buy it if it were 76 keys. No heavier no bigger that the T4 but with the great sounds, styles that every one is raving over. Does anyone think they will not buy it because it has 15 extra keys?
Talk is cheap.



------------------
TTG
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 10:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Talk is cheap.
You can’t tell me that if the T4 had the same features as it does now, person who bought or will by the T4 would not buy it if it were 76 keys. No heavier no bigger that the T4 but with the great sounds, styles that every one is raving over. Does anyone think they will not buy it because it has 15 extra keys?
Talk is cheap.



Well, you are making a lot of assumptions, Genny.

In the first place, you can't predict what size the Tyros4 would be with 76 keys.

In the second place, you don't know how expensive it will be.

Thirdly, not everyone who allegedly would buy a Tyros4 with 76 keys likes the Yamaha sound and styles...they want a more "live" sound, so, they really don't count.

Finally, you won't know if they will or not, because Yamaha has said "No" to making the T4 with 76.

I actually find it strange that the last part hasn't really registered in your mind...look at the T4...does it have 76 keys?

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 11:08 AM

Posted this on another thread, but it bears repeating...

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
But perhaps those of us wanting this change are going about things the wrong way...? Perhaps it would not be against your religion (Yamahism? ) to simply, instead of asking for a 76 PSR or Tyros, we simply asked for a DGX with EXACTLY the same OS and sounds as those keyboards? Then you could continue in your delusion that Yamaha don't MAKE 76 arrangers, and we could get exactly what we want...

I would be PERFECTLY happy to play a 76 PSR even if it had the words 'Piano' printed on its' front panel, and the letters DGX before its' numbers...
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Posted this on another thread, but it bears repeating...



Well, this bears repeating as well...

The bottom line still is that Yamaha aren't going to make a 76 note TOTL or MOTL arranger until they feel there is a decent market for one.

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 11:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Scottyee:
Yamaha's markets Tyros as an 'arranger' keyboard specifically created for auto accomp style arranger playing, not solo piano playing, and 61 notes suits this fine for me.



Hi Scott,

I'm sorry I missed your call...I don't have your email, since I lost a lot of addresses when my laptop croaked.

Please email me.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 11:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Well, this bears repeating as well...

The bottom line still is that Yamaha aren't going to make a 76 note TOTL or MOTL arranger until they feel there is a decent market for one.

Ian


But I'm not ASKING for a 76 TOTL or MOTL arranger. Yamaha don't have to make one. I just want a better DGX piano
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 11:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
But I'm not ASKING for a 76 TOTL or MOTL arranger. Yamaha don't have to make one. I just want a better DGX piano


The DGX competes with Casio's instruments.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 11:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
The DGX competes with Casio's instruments.

Ian


More dogma... The DGX competes with whatever Yamaha WANT it to compete with. Currently, though, Yamaha don't want the DGX line to compete with the PSR line. Which, of course, it could only do if it WERE actually an arranger. Which you have said it is NOT...

So where's the conflict?

You see the problem in painting yourself into a corner?
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 12:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
More dogma... The DGX competes with whatever Yamaha WANT it to compete with.


Yes, that might be true, and for the time being, they compete with Casio.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
they compete with Casio.


And Korg, and Ketron. They make 76 arrangers too, you know Oops! Sorry... Meant to say 'Piano based home keyboards'!
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Currently, though, Yamaha don't want the DGX line to compete with the PSR line.


Really? I suppose anything is possible, but where did you get this information?

It's the first time I've heard of it.

However, when it's all said and done, the fact remains that they don't make TOTL or MOTL arrangers with 76 keys...the reason why they don't is actually irrelevant.

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
And Korg, and Ketron. They make 76 arrangers too, you know Oops! Sorry... Meant to say 'Piano based home keyboards'!


The DGX line competes with Casio.

Korg and/or Ketron are in another segment altogether, especially regarding price and features.

I thought you would have known that, Diki.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 12:31 PM

Circular logic, Ian.

Thought you would have know THAT...!
Posted by: Scottyee

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Hi Scott,
I'm sorry I missed your call...


HI Ian, having just read your reply, I'm glad I called you right back to find you home this time. It was fun as usual to catch up on things with you. Glad to hear your health is better now. Stay well buddy. - Scott
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 12:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Circular logic, Ian.

Thought you would have know THAT...!


No, I'm afraid I'm not as dumb as you look, my friend...circular logic only seems to apply to those unwilling to accept reality, and in this case, it's the fact that Yamaha isn't making a TOTL or MOTL arranger with 76 keys...the reasons are moot.

That's not to say they won't ever make one...maybe they will, but let's just say it's probably a good thing you bought an extra G-70.

Ian

PS...Doesn't the Korg PA2XPro interest you at all?
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 01:15 PM

But first, it was Yamaha not making ANY 76 arranger. Now it's Yamaha not making any MOTL or TOTL 76. Keep moving the bar when your argument finally breaks down and reality sets in, and you have to admit it is FAR more likely than you want to admit.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 01:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
But first, it was Yamaha not making ANY 76 arranger. Now it's Yamaha not making any MOTL or TOTL 76. .


Whatever...but all the circular arguing that you're doing isn't bringing a 76 note Tyros any closer.

The answer is still "No."

Ian
Posted by: keybplayer

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 03:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
The answer is still "No."

Ian


Yamaha... the company of NO. Sad, very sad.

Diki makes a valid point regarding the DGX and YPG series keyboards. They are arrangers that are more Piano-Focused in that they come in 76 and/or 88 keys. Now, these relatively inexpensive arrangers have a viable market and in fact many adults use them in the home too. Many people can afford a more costly higher-end solution in 76 and/or 88 keys even as evidenced by Korg, Roland, Ketron and now even Casio who is getting back into the higher-end game with their new 76 key game changer.

Apparently the PSR-9000PRO belly flopped so badly (although not because there was not a market because there was and is) but because Yamaha used under-powered processor chips that couldn't power everything in a seamless manner and other glitches that were inherent in the 9000PRO. When people found out about the PSR9000PRO shortcomings I imagine sales quickly dried up and Yamaha got stuck with a "loser" with fewer sales than they were hoping for. Which consequently made them ever so determined I guess to never build another 76 key high-end arranger ever again. End of story.

But the sad thing is if Yamaha actually made a proficient and satisfactory high end 76 key arranger with sufficient CPU power and resources and absent of any glitches that plagued the 9000PRO, I really think people would gladly fork over the cash for it. For whatever reason I guess Yamaha is still too skittish to make another effort in that area. Again, not because there isn't a market for high-end 76 key arrangers because I believe there is (remember the Poll??) and as attested by... you know who K, R, C, K, Mediastation etc.

If thousands of people are willing to pay $5 Grand or more for a 61 key Tyros don't you think they would be willing to pay a few hundred more for a Professional 76 key Tyros? Add 15 keys and keep it roughly the same dimensions and put a few more high-end features on it and voila! Build it and they will come... breaking down the doors to get one in my opinion. If, and that's a big IF... it really is the creme de la creme of achievement - with professional sounding Drum Kits, etc. Even as demonstrated by thousands upon thousands of people worldwide who buy 76 key high-end arrangers from Korg, Roland, Ketron, Casio, Mediastation etc., . PS: I'm assuming that Casio will have a real winner with their new 76 key higher-end arranger soon to hit the store shelves. At $799 I think they no doubt will.

The market is ripe for great 76 (or 88) key high-end arrangers, in my opinion, as long as they're not too heavy and the quality is there. But for whatever reason Yamaha seems determined to slough off 50% of the high-end arranger market. Oh well... such is life at the halls of Yamaha Japan I guess. The company of... "NO" apparently. Even as Ian pointed out.

All the best,
Mike

PS: I also think that keyboard manufacturers are charging WAAAYYYYYYY too much for their high-end arranger models. Especially Yamaha with their measly 61 key Tyros4 offering. You realize for every Tyros4 Yamaha sells they probably make around $2,500 - $3,000 pure profit right? Dropping the price by a thousand or fifteen hundred Yamaha would still make out like hogan's goat and more and more people would be willing to shell out at those lower price(s) and thereby increase overall sales and beget a similar bottom line as a result in my opinion. In stead Yamaha charges "through the nose", and consequently, alienates a good portion of their customer base, especially in these trying economic times we're currently experiencing the world over. Apparently Yamaha is quite content to "charge through the nose" at the expense of consumers I guess. Again, the company of "NO" who won't budge it seems huh? Thanks for clarifying Yamaha's position(s) Ian.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 04:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by keybplayer:
Thanks for clarifying Yamaha's position(s) Ian.



My pleasure, Mike. Anytime.

I would have thought you were bright enough to figure it out yourself, considering all the assumptions you make about the company and it's policies, but, as usual, you don't let the facts get in the way of your imagination.

Oh, if Yamaha could only follow your wise instructions, they'd be ever so successful.

Thankfully, however, you did manage to light up enough brain cells to grasp the meaning of the word "No", so my assistance wasn't a complete loss.

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 04:31 PM

I see you are still in denial Iana.
The fact is that Yamaha is ignoring a very significant part of the arranger market.

Even with your circular arguments, you can not get around that.



------------------
TTG
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 04:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:

The fact is that Yamaha is ignoring a very significant part of the arranger market.



Perhaps they are, Genny, or, perhaps it's just not significant enough.

Only their marketing department has the real answers.

Anything else, including your hypothesis, is just an uneducated guess.

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 06:14 PM

Iana said "The bottom line still is that Yamaha aren't going to make a 76 note TOTL or MOTL arranger until they feel there is a decent market for one."
Another one of Iana’s uneducated guesses filled with assumptions.


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TTG

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 10-09-2010).]
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 06:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Another one of Iana’s uneducated guesses filled with assumptions.



Genny,

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to continue this debate about the Tyros4 with you any longer.

It's becoming tiresome for me, and I'm sure, many others here on SZ, as you appear unable to understand a simple, but truthful, answer, and, the result is that the discussion is now becoming rather repetitive.

So, it's nothing personal...you are a lovely individual, and obviously very interested in Yamaha arrangers, and it's been mostly fun having this conversation.

Best wishes,

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 09:43 PM

I can understand how you feel. I would feel the same way if I didn’t make sense and kept contradicting my self and kept ignoring the facts.
But luckily I don’t see things the way you do so I will continue to ask Yamaha to make a good 76 key arranger.

Perhaps you should do what you do best and just continue colouring in your little colouring book and leave important conversations to us big people.

------------------
TTG
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 10:04 PM

Thank you for taking this post south ....
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/09/10 11:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Genny,

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to continue this debate about the Tyros4 with you any longer.

It's becoming tiresome for me, and I'm sure, many others here on SZ, as you appear unable to understand a simple, but truthful, answer, and, the result is that the discussion is now becoming rather repetitive.

So, it's nothing personal...you are a lovely individual, and obviously very interested in Yamaha arrangers, and it's been mostly fun having this conversation.

Best wishes,

Ian


To be honest Ian, I think you have shown quite some resilience to continue replying

I would have given up in frustration ages ago.

I do respect these other guys, and what they have said, but, I mean, they said their bit about two weeks ago!!! Its been all repeats since then...sheesh even the ads are more interesting!!

Good to see you have finally decided to just let the rambling go on with no further response. Gives the rest of us a break too, because sooner or later with no further from you, the redundant pounding of this theme will stop.

Thanks for being the one to end it It is appreciated.

Dennis
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/10/10 02:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
To be honest Ian, I think you have shown quite some resilience to continue replying

I would have given up in frustration ages ago.

I do respect these other guys, and what they have said, but, I mean, they said their bit about two weeks ago!!! Its been all repeats since then...sheesh even the ads are more interesting!!

Good to see you have finally decided to just let the rambling go on with no further response. Gives the rest of us a break too, because sooner or later with no further from you, the redundant pounding of this theme will stop.

Thanks for being the one to end it It is appreciated.

Dennis



+1

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TTG
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/10/10 03:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:


Thanks for being the one to end it It is appreciated.

Dennis



You're welcome Dennis.

In this situation, giving up was the only way to win.


Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/10/10 03:58 AM

Now that we have gotten rid of childish play, getting back to DNJ’s original topic, “Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?”

I think one think that has been overlooked is whether or not Yamaha would increase the price. There is always that possibility, but I don’t see any legitimate reason for them to do so at this time. Provided that they don’t make radical changes to the chassis of the keyboard. The T4 as other have pointed out as it stand right now has a lot of real-estate and a 76 key should be able to be fitted in to the current physical board.
I think the major point is not whether it has 76 keys but whether it would be bigger and heavier than a T4. If it is then yes it could affect sales and some persons would not buy a 76 key T4. So the issue is not 76 vs 61, but whether the keyboard is light and small.
Personally, I don’t see Yamaha making a 76 key T4. I think what is more likely is a 76 key PSR S 910 successor. Yamaha would settle the argument by having such a keyboard. Only time will tell.


------------------
TTG
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/10/10 08:54 AM

IMHO...It would be darned stupid to make a MOTL 76 arranger.
Most of the MOTL buyers are looking at cost...So you think they would pony up another several hundred $$ to have 76..NO WAY HOSE'

Sure a few of the gigiing PRO's might...(light weight)but that IMO is not the majority of MOTL arranger buyers.

So, IF Yamaha ever decides to enter the PRO arranger world with Korg and Ketron..it needs to be a very TOTL unit. All the bells & whistles.

1) 76, high qualty semi-weighted
2) FULL MIDI implentation
3) Editig at a much deeper level
4) More flexibiliy in the OS
5) functons to make yur own SA & SA2 voices
6) better build quality
7) Black metal case?

Well, I don't think it should even be a Tyros
Something new...mabe a mix of the Tyros and a Motif.

I'm not holding my breath for it :-)

SO...My revised answer is NO...I probably would not buy a 76 Tyros..BUT, I would buy a 76 TOTL arranger if it had what I want.
(Tyros + + + with advanced features)

Lee S.
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/10/10 03:51 PM

Seems like plenty of people are buying MOTL Yamaha 76's... enough for them to continue making them. Fair number buying Yamaha BOTL 76 arrangers too. Of course, disregard that last sentence if you are still under the delusion that DGX's, YPG's and NP-80v's AREN'T Yamaha 76 arrangers...

And you know what? The reason this thread goes around and around and around basically boils down to Ian's self-appointed position as spokesperson for Yamaha. You see, were Ian to simply say that HE doesn't see the need for a 76, well, it would be easy to ignore his position. But he chooses to speak FOR Yamaha. And, unfortunately, his blunt (to the point of insult), stoic and stubborn attitude, once in the guise of Yamaha's actual position, garners the exact response that anything worded so uncaringly from a corporation would get, anywhere.

'It's our position, because it's our position' is something that too strongly resembles your mother telling you 'Because we TOLD you!' rather than a REAL explanation. Once you see past all the fallacies in Ian's explanations to questions like 'other companies make a profit on TOTL and MOTL 76, why can't Yamaha?' or 'Yamaha actually DO make 76 arrangers, just BAD ones - why is that?' and you get the response, apparently the official Yamaha line (according to Ian), of 'No... not gonna happen. Go away. Learn to take no for an answer' ad nauseam, you start to think you actually ARE addressing Yamaha.

And, personally, I won't take THAT attitude off of ANY corporation. Give me a reasonable explanation, that actually fits the FACTS (rather than inventing them), and I'll go away happy. But when 'we can't make money off them', while other companies DO, well, I'm insulted you'd even try that paper-thin excuse. And 'Stop bugging me, I told you NO!'... well, that doesn't even need me to tell you how insulting that is.

I'm a serious customer. I've bought thousands of dollars of Yamaha products over my career. If they made the product I want, I'd buy it. A LOT of people would buy it. If a 76 PSR was offered, just exactly how many DGX's do you think would sell..? I bet NOT ONE!

And THAT, my friends, is the REAL reason they are not being made. Nothing to do with no-one would buy them. Nothing to do with no demand. It's simple corporate protection of a division that has made a product that doesn't compete with another product from another division. So they invent an artificial barrier, to protect the competing divisions from their own idiocy. Truth is, the customer loses, and the corporation loses, and no-one involved in this decision wants to admit it.

But Ian... quit speaking for the company, and we'll quit constantly bringing up the subject. At least, we'll quit addressing our needs and concerns to YOU. And, without your responses, well, that's 50% of the entire traffic GONE...!

Takes two to have an argument. You stay out of it, it's a monologue (at least, position-wise... there's PLENTY here want what I do!). But, if reading over and over that someone's REAL needs are being unfulfilled by your religion (oops! meant corporation! ) is setting your teeth on edge, better get used to US saying 'No!' as much as you like saying it!

Yamaha have changed their position in the past. That means they CAN in the future. If they NEVER made 76's, I'd say it was a lost cause. But they do now, they have in the past, and will probably continue to. All we are asking is a TINY change in emphasis.

Sorry, chum, but if you want this conversation to cease, you are going to have to stop acting as an ad hoc spokesman for Yamaha. I already know YOU don't want a Yamaha 76. But when you choose to speak for Yamaha, don't be so astonished that 'No!' is not an acceptable answer.
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/10/10 04:14 PM

Please Diki, enough already...
Ian has not spoken for Yamaha, he has said what he thinks Yamahas policy is based on his experience with them, right or wrong, for better or worse.

If they (Yamaha) think it will eat DGX sales or will not sell a bucketload, well thats YAMAHA's decision, not Ian's. I am certain the board of Yamaha do NOT consult him even about the weather, let alone on future sales strategy!!

He quite clearly said he PERSONALLY was not interested in a 76, but could see others may want one.

END OF....Please mirror Ian's decision to retire from this and we can all go back to enjoying each others posts.

And now I am taking a Forrest Gump
".....and thats all I am going to say about that!!!"

Dennis
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/10/10 04:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Sorry, chum, but if you want this conversation to cease, you are going to have to stop acting as an ad hoc spokesman for Yamaha. I already know YOU don't want a Yamaha 76. But when you choose to speak for Yamaha, don't be so astonished that 'No!' is not an acceptable answer.


Diki,

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to continue this debate about the Tyros4 with you any longer.

It's becoming tiresome for me, and I'm sure, many others here on SZ, as you appear unable to understand a simple, but truthful, answer, and, the result is that the discussion is now becoming rather repetitive.

You got the same answers from another Yamaha rep, and he wisely chose to stay out of these no-win debates, and, now I'm following his example.

I'm very satisfied that I made my point, and that's as far as I need to take things...if you can't or won't believe me, then that's your problem...not mine.

So, as with Genny, it's nothing personal...you can choose to say what you wish, but I'm no longer going to be a part of the discussions regarding Yamaha's policies for arrangers.

Best wishes,

Ian

BTW...I do want a 76...but with weighted hammer action.
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/10/10 04:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
BTW...I do want a 76...but with weighted hammer action.


Too bad...! If only you were content with 88, you'd have several choices, including Yamaha. Mind you, if 88 was OK, you would then have to start questioning why Yamaha choose to put much older technology in the 88 case than they do in the 61. And I would HATE to see a man question his religion!

And, sorry, guys, but I am about as likely to take a directive off of you guys to give up on a subject dear to heart as you are if I TELL you to quit posting on any other subject, either. Don't want to read my posts? Well, that's what the 'Back' button is for!
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/10/10 04:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
Please Diki, enough already...

END OF....Please mirror Ian's decision to retire from this and we can all go back to enjoying each others posts.



Thanks Dennis...again, giving up was the only way to win.

I will continue to discuss other topics, regarding Yamaha arrangers, but I'm no longer going to be a part of the 76 note vs. 61 debate.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/10/10 04:58 PM

Don't respond to this, Ian... just think about it for a while.

If several other companies DID make 76 weighted arrangers, but Yamaha didn't, would you accept someone ELSE'S explanation of this fact as 'There's no demand for them'..?
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/10/10 05:49 PM

So to create a segue to poor old Donny's original topic, and to re-iterate...

I definitely would buy a PSR/Tyros if one was ever released with a 76 note keybed

Dennis
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/10/10 07:05 PM

Diki,
Ah Ha...I was not aware of the DGX's, YPG's and NP-80v's products!

YES, YES...you are 1000% right...as I always expected...division rivalry IS the reason. And I think the Yamaha reps know that is it..but are told not to discuss it.

It'a a shame, really is.

I finally understand.

Lee S.

[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 10-10-2010).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/12/10 01:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Thanks Dennis...again, giving up was the only way to win.

I will continue to discuss other topics, regarding Yamaha arrangers, but I'm no longer going to be a part of the 76 note vs. 61 debate.

Ian


Your nonparticipation on this topic is greatly appreciated!!

Yamaha made a wise decision.

And, if discontinuing talking about 76 key Yamaha arrangers make you feel like a winner, then yes Iana you won. And for that you get a lollypop.


------------------
TTG
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/12/10 02:17 AM

A 76 key arranger with Balanced Weighted Hammer Action would be a failure. The whole point of having 76 keys is to give you more options and to be as versatile as possible. Such a keyboard would not be good from playing other sounds like organ, synth sounds and other non piano sounds.
Also, it would make the keyboard heavier than it needs to be.
Again It is not an issue of 61 vs 76 keys but and issue of big vs small, heavy vs light, compact vs bulky.


If Yamaha makes a good 76 key arranger Balanced Weighted Hammer Action when it fails then they would say a good 76 key arranger does not sell.

If you think other wise, ask Yamaha about sales of the S70 XS.

All we want is a DGX or Motif 76 with great arranger sounds and styles and features.

But because of Yamaha divisional rivalry, it may never happen.



------------------
TTG
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/12/10 08:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:

And, if discontinuing talking about 76 key Yamaha arrangers make you feel like a winner, then yes Iana you won. And for that you get a lollypop.


There's only one thing better than winning, and that's getting a reward.

Thanks Genny...you're a sweetie.

Ian
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/12/10 04:02 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7HA2KeaBjg
Posted by: mr9000

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/12/10 06:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
"..I am about as likely to take a directive off of you are if I TELL you to quit posting on any other subject, either. Don't want to read my posts? Well, that's what the 'Back' button is for!


People,Please lay off the "Diki-thoust shall not talk about 76keys/tiresome crapla"
What..are we in china being run by Kim chong not being able to say what the h*ll we want now? indeed yamaha is like a terrified school girl who's deathly afraid of meddling with the 76#'s ever again.
If yam was truly wise it would completly MIX
ALL functions together and release the next keyboard as the:

Motros!(Motif&Tyros)
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/12/10 06:35 PM

or............"TYRIF"
Posted by: mr9000

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/12/10 07:27 PM

Or the TY-RiFiK (terrific)
Posted by: travlin'easy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/14/10 02:20 PM

Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?

NO!
Posted by: tino1

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/14/10 02:44 PM

Even 100 keys : NO , NO , NO ...
Only 61 keys + good drum & bass : Yes , Yes , Yes .
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/14/10 09:17 PM

so the majority here says NO !

very interesting.
Posted by: Taike

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/14/10 09:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
so the majority here says NO !

very interesting.


That's exactly how Bush was elected in 2000.

------------------
Bo pen nyang.
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/14/10 10:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
so the majority here says NO !

very interesting.


Yes because they don't want a keyboard that is heavy and weighs alot. No different to the objection to Yamaha having a sampler on an arranger because people thought it would make the arranger too complecated. But the T3 and T4 have a sampler and people are buying them the same way.

------------------
TTG
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 09:41 AM

This is how polls can be used to say ANYTHING...

The question was NOT asked 'would you like a 76 arranger from Yamaha?' or 'if Yamaha made a 76 arranger, would you buy one?' or 'would you be interested in Yamaha making a 76 (even if you are not sure whether it would be better than your current 76)?'

No, you phrase the question so that it will reflect what you want to hear. For instance, you could ask ANYONE here 'Would you buy the most expensive arranger if a very good alternative existed at under half the price?' and get the answer 'NO!'... In fact, the very poser of the original question would say that..!

But, instead, you ask one VERY focused question, and extrapolate the answer to a MUCH bigger question from that. And that, my friends, is sheer voodoo economics. Or, as Mark Twain would have said, 'Lies, damn lies, and statistics!'

But claiming a straw poll on a very precise question proves any fact whatsoever, well, I remind you of the straw poll we had a while ago about how many here played 76's.. From that thread ALONE, it was possible to 'prove' that MOST of us did! An obvious fallacy... Pointed out to us by the very same people using THIS thread as 'proof' of THEIR point

Baby steps, Yamaha.... baby steps. Personally, why not test the waters with a 76 PSR910, and find out what the market is before you leap in with a 76 T4? I know I would buy one... But leap into the fray with ONLY a 76 TOTL, well, if it doesn't take off like a rocket, odds are Yamaha will go ANOTHER ten to fifteen years before they revisit the question They have already PROVED that 76 arrangers sell (DGX, YPG, NP-80v) as long as they aren't TOTL ones. So, how about just a GOOD MOTL one?

So, you see, were the question rephrased 'Would you buy a Yamaha 76?', well, first off, all the YPG, DGX and NP-80v players would HAVE to say yes , and then the MUCH larger numbers that wouldn't buy ANY TOTL arranger, 76 or otherwise, would be able to join in, too.

And then your 'proof' might evaporate... or at least be a more representative answer.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 09:44 AM

Posted by: Taike

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 10:01 AM

Let me get this straight... If Yamaha decides to cancel 61-keys arrangers in favor of 76 keys, would all of you Yamaha guys stop buying Yamaha? If you're so set against a 76-key arranger it does seem that way.

Taike

------------------
Bo pen nyang.
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 10:14 AM

No wonder we don't get any DGX, YPG or NP-80v players posting here much... seems like the Yamaha PSR users are intimidating them from admitting they exist...
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Taike:
If you're so set against a 76-key arranger it does seem that way.

Taike



Taike, no one is set against them making a 76 (at least I'm not)..it's just that this same discussion took place after each Tyros was introduced...in fact the discussions were even longer.

Yet, each new Tyros was 5 octaves.

Two Yamaha reps also confirmed that the Tyros would remain at 5 octaves...one was talking to Diki, and the other to KingFrog.

Of course, no company is required to give reasons why they do, or do not, make a certain type of product, but, they did make it clear that their marketing research showed that a 76 note arranger wasn't worth the effort...the segment is too small.

The company obviously said, "No", or we'd be seeing a Tyros4 with 76 keys.

Just to be clear...I have sent in a request for 76 keys many times...I also directed Yamaha people to this forum, and to the discussions regarding 76 keys.

Will there be a Tyros5 with 76 keys?

Who knows?

The earlier discussions here, after the Tyros, T2, T3 etc, obviously have had no bearing on what's going to be made...and I seriously doubt this one will either...it's the same small bunch over and over, and many of them don't want a Yamaha no matter what number of keys it has...they don't like the Yamaha sound and want that changed too.

What I find amusing is all the "arm chair amateur marketing" geniuses that somehow think they know more than the marketing mavens of a very successful company.

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 10:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
And then your 'proof' might evaporate... or at least be a more representative answer.


What you don't understand, is that a company,(Yamaha, Ketron, Korg etc) does not owe you an explanation why they don't make a particular product.

You were already informed by a Yamaha rep about this issue, so consider yourself lucky.

Most companies wouldn't tell you a damn thing.

Ian

PS...did a Roland rep tell you why they didn't implement the chord sequencer you harped about incessantly, both here, and on Roland Arranger.com?

Did a Roland rep tell you exactly why they stopped making high/mid range arrangers?
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 11:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Taike:
Let me get this straight... If Yamaha decides to cancel 61-keys arrangers in favor of 76 keys, would all of you Yamaha guys stop buying Yamaha? If you're so set against a 76-key arranger it does seem that way.

Taike



Sorry Taike, you are missing the argument...Not cancel 61's, ADD the 76.

Dennis
Posted by: Taike

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 12:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
Sorry Taike, you are missing the argument...Not cancel 61's, ADD the 76.

Dennis



I asked just in case Yamaha decided to cancel 61 keys and only have 76 keys available. I know it's not going to happen but some clearly stated that they wouldn't want 76 keys. So would they all jump ship or be willing to accept what they dislike so much?

Taike

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 10-15-2010).]
Posted by: Kingfrog

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 12:43 PM

Yamaha apparently sees no logical reason (and certainly no demand from their own loyal user base) for 76 keys. Why? Because they don't have to. People who play these things prefer a LIGHTER and smaller footprint keyboard. If that means plastic and 61 keys...there's your sign...Yamaha can be blamed for a lot of strange choices. Knowing who their customers are and what THEY want is not one of them.

Lets face facts here. This would be an EASY and cheap implementation within the current shell even (almost as easy and cheap as an XLR mike input W/O phantom power)

So there can only be one reason they don;t do it........People who matter to them don't want or need it. There are few who would buy a Tyros with 76 keys over what they have now...so why risk a winning combo for a handful of naysayers who would not be customers anyway??



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-15-2010).]
Posted by: travlin'easy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 12:53 PM

OK, let's flip the coin over. How many Roland, Korg, Audya, etc.. buyers that are currently playing with 76 keys would buy the same brands if only 61 key models were offered? Yeah--right!
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 01:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by travlin'easy:
OK, let's flip the coin over. How many Roland, Korg, Audya, etc.. buyers that are currently playing with 76 keys would buy the same brands if only 61 key models were offered? Yeah--right!



Simple answer for me Gary, nope I wouldn't be playing them

I'd find one that worked for me (OR a system that worked). I would not complain that they didn't, rather, I would just find one that did.

There is usually always a solution. One just needs the motivation to find it

I have found that complaining after the fact, has not changed one single event in my life

Dennis
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 01:43 PM

Once again, the COMPLETE refusal by Ian et al. to admit that Yamaha DO make 76 arrangers... Talk about beating a dead horse! That argument, once you admit the very existence of the DGX. YPG and NP-80v (arguing whether they are arrangers or not is pure semantics) is OVER...

What Yamaha have is a VERY poor product line-up... Overlaps and gaps, not a smooth transition from one end of the spectrum to the other. And the MOTL 76 falls into one of those gaps. They have low end 76's, they have high end 88's (mind you, not as high as the 61's), but no MOTL 76. And while other companies find profit in selling MOTL and TOTL 76's, no amount of 'market research' bullsh*t is going to convince me that Yamaha have even TRIED to plumb this market. They simply have gaps in their product line-ups (that other companies don't have) because they split the one market up into two competing divisions. One makes the 76's, the other gets the current technology.

No other reason for it than this arbitrary corporate structuring. Any attempt to put a logical, customer related spin on it simply has to disregard SO MUCH factual evidence, it starts to border on religion!

The arranger division develops the technology, and guards it as jealously as they can for as long as they can, and the 'home piano' division (the one that makes the 76 note arrangers) sits around, twiddling its' thumbs, waiting for the meager dregs the get eventually tossed to them. The fact that Yamaha's TOTL 88 Clavinova, FAR more expensive than a T4, has technology in it barely the equivalent of a T2 shows exactly how much emphasis Yamaha put on 'market research'... Do you honestly think that someone who payed THAT MUCH for Yamaha's TOTL 88 arranger is actually HAPPY they got shafted?

If Yamaha had ONE division that dealt with ALL arranger sales (calling a cheap plastic unweighted 76 arranger a piano doesn't make it one in the slightest), I have absolutely no doubt they would be producing MOTL and TOTL 76's exactly the same as everyone else.
Posted by: Taike

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 01:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by travlin'easy:
OK, let's flip the coin over. How many Roland, Korg, Audya, etc.. buyers that are currently playing with 76 keys would buy the same brands if only 61 key models were offered? Yeah--right!



That argument doesn't really apply, Gary, since all the brands you mentioned DO have the option of 61 and 76 keys.

Let me make it clear once again that I don't care what brand one favors. Neither do I have anything against Yamaha. Neither have I seen others bash Yamaha. They're not wrong in wanting something even if their wish might not be granted. Shouldn't that be more frustrating to them then to those that already have what they want? One is still free to ask, right?

In a way all these arguments are contradictory. After all, most want styles of other brands. If one brand is THAT good, why the need for the other brands' styles? It proves that not ONE brand has it ALL so bashing is plain silly. Again, haven't seen anyone resort to bashing. Personal perception is just that...personal. Nothing to lose sleep over.

For the record, anyone is free to "bash" my choice of keyboard for it wouldn't bother me in the least. It's just an object to me. Now if they want to waste their time bashing an object, that's their loss, not mine.

I'm happy with whatever I play. Heck, even a Bontempi would be great if I had no other choice. All 61 and 76 keys fans would be more then willing to compromise if they had only ONE choice unless they're die-hard fanatics. For the latter, the best choice would be to pick up another instrument or give up music altogether... or play CDs.

Taike

------------------
Bo pen nyang.
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 02:02 PM

Yep, sorry, Gary. If NO-ONE made 76 arrangers, I wouldn't be playing arrangers at all! I might have a cheap 61 sitting at home, to help make quick SMF's, but I wouldn't gig it in a million years!

I already bruise my pinky bad enough sitting in on the occasional 61

You could, in fact, ask yourself the almost exact same question... If Yamaha ceased making 61's, and ONLY made 49's, would you move to a company that still made 61's?
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 03:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
If Yamaha had ONE division that dealt with ALL arranger sales (calling a cheap plastic unweighted 76 arranger a piano doesn't make it one in the slightest), I have absolutely no doubt they would be producing MOTL and TOTL 76's exactly the same as everyone else.


So, you believe that Yamaha does not have one division that deals with all arranger sales, and that's the reason why there are no 76 note TOTL/MOTL arrangers being made?

Now, if you really believe you are correct, then there's no reason for you to have any trouble accepting the fact that Yamaha does not make 76 note TOTL/MOTL arrangers.

If you're still having trouble, then it will be obvious you don't actually believe what you are saying.

Well, I'm glad that's over with...and so are many others, I'm sure.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-15-2010).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 03:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Taike:
Let me get this straight... If Yamaha decides to cancel 61-keys arrangers in favor of 76 keys, would all of you Yamaha guys stop buying Yamaha? If you're so set against a 76-key arranger it does seem that way.

Taike



+1

------------------
TTG
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 03:46 PM

For those who may have missed this
TTG wrote: “Its not like the problem can not be solved?
So Yamaha makes a PSR S 910 successor with 76 keys.
It is everything we would expect the successor to be (great sounds, styles and some features from the T4 and so on…….)
This keyboard was 19 LBS and it was 43 inches long.
they also made a 61 key version that have the same sounds, styles and features but was 25 LBS and was 42.5 inches long.
The price for both is the same.
Which one would you get and why.”

If one or two persons are dissatisfied with persons wanting a Yamaha 76 key arranger don’t blame the posters. Get in contact with Yamaha and tell them to make a good 76 key arranger so that the many persons who post on SZ on this topic could stop requesting a good 76 key Yamaha arranger.


It is obvious that when the T1, T2, T3 and now T4 came out there is always a request by many person for Yamaha to make a good 76 key arranger. Does that not tell you something?

BTW Iana could not keep his word could he.



------------------
TTG
Posted by: travlin'easy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 03:53 PM

I don't care how many keys any manufacturer's arranger keyboard features, just as long as I can play it. It could have 48 or 108--it makes no difference as long as I can play it.

To me, and I guess I must be in the minority, the number of keys is a non-issue. It's what comes out of the speakers that concerns me most. I guess that's why I've owned so many different brands over the past couple decades. They've all had some great sounds, despite the number of keys.

I guess I'm pretty easy to satisfy. If the keyboard sounds great that's what is the most important feature to the vast majority of musician/entertainers I know. If it doesn't sound great, the number of keys is irrelevant. Kinda' like owning a great looking car that doesn't run.

Just prior to your arrival here on the zone, there was the same kind of heated discussion pertaining to key size--another non-issue for me. There were a tiny number of individuals that bitched about Yamaha's keys being too small and too close together. Over an octave range, by actual measurement with a micrometer, this amounted to almost 1/32-inch, which for some folks must have really hindered their playing.

Then there has always been the weighted V/S semi-weighted V/S light action V/S hammer action issue. Thankfully, that one faded away as well.

Issues such as these seem to take up lots of bandwidth, but by and large no one benefits from these endless tirades of which there is no sensible conclusion. Now, as I've stated in the past, anyone that feels that strongly about the number of keys issue should sit down at their PC or Mac and compose a letter to the manufacturer, one that clearly states your case. They do read them, you know. And, if they get enough letters (not emails), they will usually respond favorably. It will not likely happen tomorrow afternoon--but they will respond. And, this has been the case with nearly every, successful manufacturer.

Cheers,

Gary
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 03:59 PM

for a 76 key Kb arranger why can't you just buy a Pa2x, Audya, Mediastation, G70, E60, .......


why? because the Yamaha sounds the best that's why........so they sacrifice the best sounding unit for 15 keys.....its hilarious to read.....and futile to see all the jealous procrastinators ...who wouldn't buy a 76 T4 at $5000.00+ anyway if there was one..so whats the point.......?
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 04:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
BTW Iana could not keep his word could he.


Don't be so childish, Genny...I simply changed my mind...that's my prerogative.

By the way, you should try changing your mind...the one you have has only one track.

Ian
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 04:15 PM

Kingfrog...BS...Why risk...What? They would not get rid of 61 so there is no risk at all.
Customers would merely choose which one is best for them...WIN...WIN..

Ian..no sir...I have lots of customers...if I make a product decision, and they ask be why, I tell them...Yes, I do owe my loyal customers (and even prospects)answers. I've been doing this over 40 years...so I do have a good idea how to please customers.

Lee S.
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 04:19 PM

Donny,
You can get a T4 for about $3300. So a 76 T4 would maybe be $3800. Sold.
Where did $4,500 - $5,000 come from?
Oh, I forgot...why is a 76 key PA2XPRO gotten for about $3,200...and a T4 61 $3300?
Simple because it don't cost that much to add the 15 keys.
Lee S.

[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 10-15-2010).]
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 04:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
Donny,
You can get a T4 for about $3300. So a 76 T4 would maybe be $3800. Sold.
Where did $4,500 - $5,000 come from?
Lee S.


Depends where you live...& what kind of store is selling the unit....but dont worry a Tyros 76 will NEVER be available.
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-YAM-TYROS4-LIST



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-15-2010).]
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 04:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
Ian..no sir...I have lots of customers...if I make a product decision, and they ask be why, I tell them...Yes, I do owe my loyal customers (and even prospects)answers. I've been doing this over 40 years...so I do have a good idea how to please customers.

Lee S.


I'm glad your methods work for you Lee.

Best of luck,

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 05:18 PM

Gary wrote: “I don't care how many keys any manufacturer's arranger keyboard features, just as long as I can play it.”


If only Yamaha and others could think like you.
The only time the number of keys really matter is if you have less than what you want. For a person who wants 76 keys a 61 key would not suffice because 61 is less than 76. For a person who wants 61 keys, 49 would not suffice because 49 is less than 61.


However, the opposite is not true. For a person who wants 61 keys, a 76 key would suffice because 76 is more than 61. So to a person who is content with 61, what does it matter if the keyboard has 15 extra keys than they want?
You know, for all the detractors of 76 keys, no one, including Yamaha, has shown how in the world a 76 key arranger would prevent person from buying a great sound Yamaha arranger.

People keep talking about this discussion has been going on for years. You know why, because the points that the detractors make just does not make much sense.


------------------
TTG
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 05:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
You know, for all the detractors of 76 keys, no one, including Yamaha, has shown how in the world a 76 key arranger would prevent person from buying a great sound Yamaha arranger.


Genny, nobody's saying they don't want Yamaha to make a 76-note instrument.

I have no problem if they make a 76 note Tyros, or even a 76 note PSR.

It should be obvious to you that they aren't going to make one until their marketers decide that it's profitable to do so.

They won't stop production on a 61 note successfully selling Tyros, or a 5 octave PSR-S-series, and only make 76 note versions of each...and, so far it's apparent that they only want to stay with 61.

If you're getting the impression that I don't want Yamaha to make a 76 note higher end instrument, you're mistaken...I have requested a 76'er many times.

So far, they have said, "No."

Good luck.

Ian
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 05:43 PM

1,2,cha,cha,cha
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 05:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
1,2,cha,cha,cha


Cha Cha is a great style for "Wheels".
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/15/10 06:14 PM

Ian,
Thanks...not perfect..but it works.

Donny,
Only a very uninformed person would pay $4999 for a T4. In USA anyways.
Lee S.
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/16/10 01:23 AM

"So far, they have said no..."

And if we STOP asking, they will assume that no-one is still interested in one. So we keep asking...

And, in fact, 'they' haven't said anything at all. Merely apologists for Yamaha have taken that burden upon themselves. All Yamaha have chosen to do is not compete with themselves. The division that makes DGX's and YPG's etc., do NOT have access to the latest sounds, OS and styles that the OTHER division have. Put the two divisions together, and there would be no problem. But Yamaha have chosen to deliberately restrict one division while the other gets the latest technology. And THAT division is deliberately restricted from making 76's (which would compete with the other division). BOTH sides lose...
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/16/10 01:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:


And if we STOP asking, they will assume that no-one is still interested in one. So we keep asking...



You keep asking. I hope it works.

I've never looked at this topic in this way before, but what is becoming clearer with each post, is how only the addition of 15 keys would be sufficient for you and several others to buy a Yamaha TOTL/MOTL arranger.

I always had a feeling you thought they were great instruments, and since you always say you would only play an arranger that suits your needs, it's nice to see that Yamaha makes a product that meets them...except for those darn 15 keys that are missing.

I have a similar feeling about Genny, and it is nice to see him encourage Yamaha with such passion and perseverance.

Thanks guys...your support is greatly appreciated.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-16-2010).]
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/16/10 03:55 AM

How about just writing to yamaha with your well reasoned arguments as to why you feel a 76 key true arranger would make them more money than their curenyt offerings or getting a petition together of all the arranger players you can muster from every arranger forum you can to put together a collective petition. surely that has to be more productive than bringing up this same discussion over and over again.

When i wanted a DVD tutorial for the Korg PA Arranger series i contacted korg to see if they would make one. when i got no luck i asked the forum members at Korg forums if they would pay for one , how many would wish to contirbute in making a DVD what price, who to approach for the demonstrations etc and discovered there wasnt enough people who would want one to produce on a commercial basis for Korg so we made the DVD's ourseles .
http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/support/arranger_secrets.htmlne . It became the most popular arranger instructional DVD at the time (might i say only) . Even though Korg didnt see the interest , we did .

We sold over 500 of them, and i posted personally about 200 from my living room ! It became too much work and we placed the distribution responsibilities with other agents. They are still selling.

The point i am making is if you feel so strongly about the need or desire for a 76 key yamaha tyros arranger please stop whinging and do something constructive. Garner some support for the idea, present a commercial reason for them to do it and then let them tell you personally NO if thats what they choose to do.

If that doesnt work then the next best thing would be to talk to a smaller company like liontracs and see what they might do in terms of exactly what you think would be a yamaha beating 76 key arranger. If not them, then approach ketron,or roland or whoever but do something constructive !

Point scoring here might help your ego but nothing else. Nothing else !
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/16/10 04:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
The point i am making is if you feel so strongly about the need or desire for a 76 key yamaha tyros arranger please stop whining and do something constructive.


Amen to that, Spalding.

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/16/10 08:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
You keep asking. I hope it works.

I've never looked at this topic in this way before, but what is becoming clearer with each post, is how only the addition of 15 keys would be sufficient for you and several others to buy a Yamaha TOTL/MOTL arranger.

I always had a feeling you thought they were great instruments, and since you always say you would only play an arranger that suits your needs, it's nice to see that Yamaha makes a product that meets them...except for those darn 15 keys that are missing.

I have a similar feeling about Genny, and it is nice to see him encourage Yamaha with such passion and perseverance.

Thanks guys...your support is greatly appreciated.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-16-2010).]


What took you so long?
That is what I have been trying to tell you.
The sounds and styles of Yamaha TOTL arrangers are good. If they were not do you think I will be spending time on trying to get Yamaha to make a good 76 key arranger?

After all I am the owner of a very poor arranger in the Motif xs 76. So it is not that Yamaha is trying to get a new customer.
The DGX although 76 keys is also a very poor arranger just like the Motif xs 76. So that is why I want Yamaha to make a good 76 key arranger.



------------------
TTG
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/16/10 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
"So far, they have said no..."

And, in fact, 'they' haven't said anything at all. Merely apologists for Yamaha have taken that burden upon themselves......


Actually Diki, no-one that I have noticed, has actually apologised for anything, so unless you are using that to somehow inject a derogatory sneer to whomever it is directed, then it really does not apply, just my "read" of course and maybe I am misunderstanding you ..

Same as that term "fanboy", keeps reminding me of eunuchs you saw in the early 50's and 60's movies set in the middle east. Standing over the Sultan waving these huge feather fans

Dennis
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/16/10 08:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
What took you so long?
That is what I have been trying to tell you.
The sounds and styles of Yamaha TOTL arrangers are good. If they were not do you think I will be spending time on trying to get Yamaha to make a good 76 key arranger?

After all I am the owner of a very poor arranger in the Motif xs 76. So it is not that Yamaha is trying to get a new customer.
The DGX although 76 keys is also a very poor arranger just like the Motif xs 76. So that is why I want Yamaha to make a good 76 key arranger.


Well Genny, I'll put extra effort into informing/reminding the people I'm working for, about the increasing interest in 76 note arranger...preferably in the PSR-Series line.

They will look here on SZ and see just how many want a 76-note PSR, or Tyros.

If the numbers look good, I'm sure they'll give it every consideration.

Thanks again for your support.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-16-2010).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/16/10 09:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
Actually Diki, no-one that I have noticed, has actually apologised for anything, so unless you are using that to somehow inject a derogatory sneer to whomever it is directed, then it really does not apply, just my "read" of course and maybe I am misunderstanding you ..

Same as that term "fanboy", keeps reminding me of eunuchs you saw in the early 50's and 60's movies set in the middle east. Standing over the Sultan waving these huge feather fans

Dennis



Apologized, excused, whatever... It certainly seems a lot of fanboys are going out of their way to try and find a REASON for Yamaha's decision... Sadly, none that they have come up with make any sense at all. 'No demand'... well, that's obviously wrong! Or the DGX, YPG and NP80v, not to mention the entire Clavinova line (after all, we are basically saying that no 'arranger player' really needs anything more than 61, aren't we?) would not exist.

'Yamaha MUST have done their market research'... By ONLY asking 61 users! No Yamaha poll has EVER asked me, and I would imagine almost ALL users of other companies' 76's. Anyway, that same 'market research' has led to the DGX's et al... 76 arrangers to anyone but a zealot.

'Yamaha lead the market'... except in 76 arrangers. Their own 76 arrangers are a poor substitute for a PSR, let alone a PA2Xpro or Audya (or even an E60).

Maybe you make a larger difference between an apologist and an excuser... They are closer than you want to admit, at least IMO...

Personally, I can see absolutely NO connection between the size of keyboard you play, and the capabilities that you need. That Yamaha, alone, have come up with the idea that, unless you play a 61, you have no NEED for the latest sounds, styles and OS simply shows how out of step they are with arranger players. At least ALL of them except 61 players.

All I'm looking for is ONE good reason why someone that WANTS to play a larger keyboard should be HAPPY (at least as happy as all those 61 Yamaha players!) that Yamaha don't make a GOOD one, as good as a 61.

And yes, OF COURSE I am only harping on this because I WOULD buy one. In a heartbeat. But not a T4. I want a 76 PSR, and will continue to suggest it until Yamaha regain their sanity! That's the only constructive thing I CAN do... I certainly can't make one And I HAVE contacted Yamaha directly.

I still believe it is corporate division protectionism, not any FACTUAL player needs, that dictate this decision from Yamaha. And corporate divisions get shuffled around ALL THE TIME... No reason why this can't happen to Yamaha. We just have to keep it in Yamaha's forebrain that not EVERYTHING is hunky dory with what they choose to do. Which, if you went off those that ARE happy playing a 61, would not get mentioned AT ALL if they could help it! I mean, just LISTEN to how hard these people, who honestly have no stake whatsoever in whether Yamaha made this or not, are trying to get those of us who DO want this to shut up!

Those very same people are happy as sandboys shooting down every OTHER arranger if it doesn't have everything THEY need, though...

I wonder if they ever see the hypocrisy of that..? Somehow, I doubt it...
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/16/10 10:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
And yes, OF COURSE I am only harping on this because I WOULD buy one.


Of course you'd buy one, and I hope they make one for you VERY soon.

You ain't getting any younger, and that beastly old G-70 will never get any lighter.

Let's hope there's a 76 note PSR in time for your nursing home debut.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-16-2010).]
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 02:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Maybe you make a larger difference between an apologist and an excuser...


I do actually agree with you , all I am saying is that as far as I can see, all that has been done is state what the assumed Yamaha policy is.

Because even though he works for Yamaha indirectly, I believe Ian has no more idea of the inner policy decisions of Yamaha than any of the rest of us here at SZ.

So I am on your side, I would buy a 76 PSR at the drop of a hat.....IF it is ever made

Dennis
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 02:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
I do actually agree with you , all I am saying is that as far as I can see, all that has been done is state what the assumed Yamaha policy is.

Because even though he works for Yamaha indirectly, I believe Ian has no more idea of the inner policy decisions of Yamaha than any of the rest of us here at SZ.



I am hardly an apologist...just a messenger.

I inquired of my Yamaha people about the reason they aren't making 76 TOTL note arranger.

I posted the answer here on SZ.

Diki asked a Yamaha rep why they weren't making one, and he was given the same answer.

So far all he has posted here, are his own assumptions.

KingFrog asked a Yamaha rep the same question, and he received the same answer, and posted it here on SZ.

So, were we all told Yamaha's policy?

So far, it is all we have to go on, until someone has actual proof to the contrary.


Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-17-2010).]
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 05:00 AM

'That's the only constructive thing I CAN do... I certainly can't make one And I HAVE contacted Yamaha directly.'

No it isnt !!

You believe that you can propose a commercial reason for yamaha to make a true 76 arranger ? Then give them the numbers of additional tyros/psr buyers who would do so without eating into their eisting offerings or even if they did could make greater profit than they do now .

Garner all the support you can. You can start a petition right here and then on the yamaha, roland korg and ketron forums. You will meet some opposition ,sure as many of those individuals would never buy a yamaha no matter the number of keys and sure, many existing yamaha owners already love their 61 key instrument as you have already seen here and dont have the need or desire to buy a 76 key instrument. But dont let that stop you ! This seems like sucj=h an important issue to you i dont understand why you havent taken these steps already.

Stop theorising and get some hard numbers to support your argument and then maybe yamaha will listen. But if they say NO then you will have at least given it a genuine go and not just wasted thousands of words and time here talking to the WRONG people.

If you cant get say 200-500 interested people to even register that they wouild buy the product then dont be surprised if the answer is no. But give it ago. This is an itch that it would seem must be scratched for you and who knows, maybe many others.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 06:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
'That's the only constructive thing I CAN do... I certainly can't make one And I HAVE contacted Yamaha directly.'

No it isnt !!

You believe that you can propose a commercial reason for yamaha to make a true 76 arranger ? Then give them the numbers of additional tyros/psr buyers who would do so without eating into their eisting offerings or even if they did could make greater profit than they do now .

This is an itch that it would seem must be scratched for you and who knows, maybe many others.



This went on in 2008?

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/018118.html

Did the next Tyros have 76 keys?

It was said that 50% of this forum wanted 76 keys...that would be how many?

Here is the poll...notice it is for ALL brands.

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/017269.html

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-17-2010).]
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 09:32 AM

i hear you ian but that was just the synthzone. The numbers might start to get significant once all the other forums are polled and if there is a commercial argument (i have not heard it yet ) that can demonstrate that yamaha WOULD make more profit and not eat into th profit of its other products then someone woould really have to break it down for me why yamaha would not be persuaded. There is nothing sacred about 61 key keyboards. The only thing sacred to yamaha and any other business that wants to make it through the next 10 yeasr is PROFIT.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 09:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
The only thing sacred to yamaha and any other business that wants to make it through the next 10 yeasr is PROFIT.


That is the bottom line, Spalding...profit.

There appears to be little interest on the Yamaha exclusive forums...those who want more keys generally do a dual manual (organ style) setup, with bass pedals.

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 10:01 AM

Profit.
Exactly.
If Yamaha creates a product that gives more than the 61 key user needs (15 extra keys), but also gets the 76 users, more profit.

After all, more profit is what drove Yamaha to put an XLR in put and blue lights on the T4.



------------------
TTG
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Profit.
Exactly.
If Yamaha creates a product that gives more than the 61 key user needs (15 extra keys), but also gets the 76 users, more profit.



I'm sure you think you're right about that statement, but unless you come up with some actual hard numbers by polling here, and the Yamaha specific sites, to find out just how many would actually buy a 76 note Tyros or PSR, it just speculation..

Companies only respond to hard data, not theory.

Yes, it would be nice to see a 76 note PSR or Tyros, but it's hard to imagine Yamaha would stop making the very profitable TOTL/MOTL 61 note arrangers to make a 76, but, I suppose anything is possible as long as we are theorizing.

I believe cold hard data/facts would work much better.

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 10:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
I'm sure you think you're right about that statement, but unless you come up with some actual hard numbers by polling here, and the Yamaha specific sites, to find out just how many would actually buy a 76 note Tyros or PSR, it just speculation..

Companies only respond to hard data, not theory.

Yes, it would be nice to see a 76 note PSR or Tyros, but it's hard to imagine Yamaha would stop making the very profitable TOTL/MOTL 61 note arrangers to make a 76, but, I suppose anything is possible as long as we are theorizing.

I believe cold hard data/facts would work much better.

Ian


Have not you been reading this thread?

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Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Have not you been reading this thread?



Of course I have...where is the data?

All I see is speculating, and theorizing.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-17-2010).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 11:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Of course I have...where is the data?

All I see is speculating, and theorizing.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-17-2010).]

If you have not been paying attention, there has been on this and other forums request for a good Yamaha 76 key arranger. Not to mention that Yamaha do make 76 key arrangers just not good ones. So the data is there.

I would like to see the data on having blue lights and XLRs.


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Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:

If you have not been paying attention, there has been on this and other forums request for a good Yamaha 76 key arranger. Not to mention that Yamaha do make 76 key arrangers just not good ones. So the data is there.




Question:

How many people want a 76 note TOTL/MOTL Yamaha arranger?

The results of the poll taken here on SZ was that there were 36 or so who wanted 76 keys, but that covered ALL brands and not just Yamaha.

You'll need actual numbers if you want to impress the marketing people, not just several people on this forum speculating and theorizing why Yamaha does not make one, and why Yamaha should make one, which has been the bulk of this thread.

I'm all for them making a 76'er, but I think you'd need more hard information before anyone in marketing will pay attention.

Ian
Posted by: travlin'easy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 11:34 AM

OK--ENOUGH! I would like everyone that insists that Yamaha come up with a 76-key TOTL arranger to take a deep breath and hold it. Keep holding, keep holding, and keep holding until Yamaha produces the ultimate keyboard that YOU WILL NEVER PURCHASE! Yep, that works.

Cheers,

Gary
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 11:56 AM

Without considering the brand..I think there is a common difference in the player...not the number of keys itself..

If you are "only" an arranger player (and some easy fingering at that)..with a melody line or counter melody line..then yes 61 keys is even overkill (49 could work).. ).

But if you make "full" use of a keyboard that just happens to be an arranger (absolutely the best type of keyboard)..76 keys is a must..period..

Playing left hand chords in more than a root inversion, or playing left hand bass , with enough right hand range to "play" chords and lines without range restriction..(and turn the arranger , auto stuff off, once in a while)..
Using the great features of multi zone across the board (3 or more)..not enough room on a 61...

I know you guys have heard this before...and the guys (mostly) that are saying 61 is more than enough..are the strictly arranger players...missing out on the full potential of even the mid line boards...

We haven't even mentioned playing Piano and EP (again 76 a must)....oops ..maybe I did just mention it..

I do play both a 61 key arranger with the band...and a 76 arranger for my solo/duo work.....It is like night and day..76 rules over 61..

I had the same feeling when I used evenly matched boards like the E50 and E-60...76 keys just allow you to do much more in a natural playing manner..

The difference comes down to the player...
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 12:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
I do play both a 61 key arranger with the band...and a 76 arranger for my solo/duo work.....It is like night and day..76 rules over 61..

The difference comes down to the player...


I suppose it could come down to that, but there are many here on SZ who are awesome players, and use 5 octaves all the time.

If you need 76 keys to play in arranger mode, that's cool...but, in your case, that means dragging around a big heavy instrument. Many of us would prefer a 25 lb five-octave instrument that sounds every bit as good, or better, in some cases.

If you like playing solo piano on 76 wimpy weighted keys, that's your preference...I like having 88 weighted hammer, as do most piano players.

As far as being "only an arranger player"...I fail to see how that relates to someone's ability or playing skills.

Would you call Martin Harris an average player? Peter Baartmans? Donny Pesce?

I've done some of my best recordings on a 5 octave instrument.

Ian
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 12:36 PM

Come on Ian!!! You know exactly what I am saying..

I used the word "most" ..referring to "only" arranger players...I have heard many players playing simple technique...not a bad player , but simplicity method of playing...

And yes I can and prefer to play piano on my heavy keyboard with a great keybed ..

And trying to bring in known better players for my argument ..won't work..

When they are playing arranger..they indeed use it in a limited use, but maybe out of necessity with only 61 keys....and when was the last time you seen Donny play two handed piano on a 61 keys?...and no pedals..

Donny absolutely takes advantage of "arranger" play with chord left hand..and chording right hand to compliment his vocals....Do I think Donny takes full advantage of the features a 76 key board can give...Nope!!...He plays as meets his needs...but this doesn't mean that other "skilled" players prefer the same methods...
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 12:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
I am hardly an apologist...just a messenger.I inquired of my Yamaha people about the reason they aren't making 76 TOTL note arranger.I posted the answer here on SZ.
Diki asked a Yamaha rep why they weren't making one, and he was given the same answer.
So far all he has posted here, are his own assumptions.
KingFrog asked a Yamaha rep the same question, and he received the same answer, and posted it here on SZ.

So, were we all told Yamaha's policy?

So far, it is all we have to go on, until someone has actual proof to the contrary.
Ian]


BTW Ian, I agreed with Diki as far as a 76 note PSR

Not the continual haranguing of Yamaha owners/demonstrators

Dennis



[This message has been edited by miden (edited 10-17-2010).]
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 12:41 PM

It's a simple thing,
Build a 61 and a 76...it'a a no brainer...PLENTY of people will buy them both.

If this was not true do you think they would make a Motif in 76? No.

If nothing else do it because your compitition does, do you think they would build a 76 if it was not profitable? No.

Lee S.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
If nothing else do it because your compitition does, do you think they would build a 76 if it was not profitable? No.

Lee S.


Each company makes it's own policies, for it's own purposes.

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 01:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Come on Ian!!! You know exactly what I am saying..



Not really, Fran...what does this have to do with the topic?

Are you saying someone that uses a 76 note arranger is more professional?

More talented?

Makes more money?

Provides better music?

Would you say, that because you use a 76 note arranger, that you are a better player than someone using a 5 octave instrument?

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 01:04 PM

First of all, the idea that Yamaha would stop 61 production if a 76 was made is idiotic. And, really, a simple red flag thrown to distract from the real point...

Secondly, the very idea that a 76 PSR would NOT be profitable is extremely surprising from any Yamaha fanboy... after all, EVERYTHING that Yamaha makes is by far the BEST thing on the market, isn't it? And as Yamaha would have NO R&D costs to make it, simply tooling up a 76 and a slightly larger case and then putting in the exact same electronics in the S910, it would be Yamaha's least expensive option of all...

Thirdly, once again, the idea of the weight of it is a falsehood, and a distraction. Roland made a 76 with speakers, and a build quality quite a bit higher than the PSR's, and it came in at only four pounds more than an S910...

The dominoes keep falling....

The ONLY reason Yamaha have to NOT make a product that quite a large percentage of SZ's members would buy, remains that they don't want what would be a VERY superior product to anything they currently make in a 76 scavenging sales from the other divisions somewhat lackluster products. There is no doubt in my mind that a 76 PSR would sell quite well (how could it NOT, being a Yamaha? ). But, in fairness, other than those of us with other 76's from other manufacturers (and we are by no means as small a percentage as you think) the majority of sales of this great product would come at the cost of Yamaha 76 arrangers from the division that gets short shrift from the arranger division, currently...

The demand IS there. Can Yamaha overcome their corporate structure to offer it, though? So far, it doesn't seem so. And that is COSTING Yamaha money, not making it for them...
Posted by: mr9000

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 01:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by travlin'easy:
OK--ENOUGH! take a deep breath and hold. Keep holding until Yamaha produces the ultimate keyboard that YOU WILL NEVER PURCHASE!
Gary


Screw this 76key fiascle, i want 77keys right now!(goes into corner, holds breath,face turning very bright red,mr9000 looks at yam in desparation, only to have now gaunt face shine with even more intensity of sea of offered redness)
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 01:18 PM

Ain't that America...?

I got mine... F*CK all y'alls...! STFU

Sweeet......!
Posted by: Pacesetter

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 01:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Ain't that America...?

I got mine... F*CK all y'alls...! STFU

Sweeet......!

Wow nasty over number of keys. Many more important things in life folks!!
Posted by: mr9000

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 01:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pacesetter:
Wow nasty over number of keys.B]


OR..could it be 'nasty' over a company that likes to wear the earplugs when dealing with future/past/disgruntled customers?..blue lights and 80's doo poo voices, real public outcry there i reckon..



[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 10-17-2010).]
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 02:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
The demand IS there. Can Yamaha overcome their corporate structure to offer it, though? So far, it doesn't seem so. And that is COSTING Yamaha money, not making it for them...


We can only wait and see Diki.

You should be focusing on why they should be making one...not why they aren't.

Certainly there is no real proof of demand for a 76 note Yamaha...the poll here was for ALL arrangers, not Yamaha instruments.

Spalding had a great suggestion...

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
'That's the only constructive thing I CAN do... I certainly can't make one And I HAVE contacted Yamaha directly.'

No it isnt !!

You believe that you can propose a commercial reason for yamaha to make a true 76 arranger ? Then give them the numbers of additional tyros/psr buyers who would do so without eating into their eisting offerings or even if they did could make greater profit than they do now .

Garner all the support you can. You can start a petition right here and then on the yamaha, roland korg and ketron forums. You will meet some opposition ,sure as many of those individuals would never buy a yamaha no matter the number of keys and sure, many existing yamaha owners already love their 61 key instrument as you have already seen here and dont have the need or desire to buy a 76 key instrument. But dont let that stop you ! This seems like sucj=h an important issue to you i dont understand why you havent taken these steps already.

Stop theorising and get some hard numbers to support your argument and then maybe yamaha will listen. But if they say NO then you will have at least given it a genuine go and not just wasted thousands of words and time here talking to the WRONG people.

If you cant get say 200-500 interested people to even register that they wouild buy the product then dont be surprised if the answer is no. But give it ago. This is an itch that it would seem must be scratched for you and who knows, maybe many others.




That's the best advice you'll ever get Diki, in my opinion.

Otherwise you're just going to get angry and frustrated because a huge successful company won't change it's corporate structure to what you think it should be.

Ian
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 02:15 PM

I'm in no way a "Piano player" wasn't trained that way in the early years, First Accordion...then Organ.......no need for 76 keys at all for me...my own customized styles I only use about 30 of them on stage is all I need to cover any situation & Right Hand comps to beef up the style parts & RH Lead solos are the icing on the cake, but are all secondary to back up my Lead vocals......that's it!.... if you need 76 keys buy a 76 key arranger there are a few out there besides Yamaha whats the big deal? or get a 76 controler KB, ....most here don't like the drums, key-feel, tight Cd sound or whatever anyway... so why worry about the amount of keys?....read this thread in it's entirety.....lurkers & most likely YamahaR7D, excecs, and everyone & their mother are ROTFLTAO looking at this, no wonder they wont post their feelings!!! ... in conclusion I couldn't care less if they NEVER made a 76 key arranger ever again, I've owned quite a few 76'ers in the past, I am very happy with what I have with the S910 for now for gigging... I'll be demoing a
Audya 5....61 keys in 3 days.....more to come....Road Trip baby!.

thank you

carry on



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-17-2010).]
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 04:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
BTW Ian, I agreed with Diki as far as a 76 note PSR

Not the continual haranguing of Yamaha owners/demonstrators

Dennis


Thank you for your support Dennis...it is appreciated.

In regards to those who harangue, berate and criticize, you know there's a lot of truth in the old saying, "Criticism is the unconscious tribute that mediocrity and failure pay to success."

I always consider the source, and usually it's someone who can't even run their own affairs successfully.

Ian


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-17-2010).]
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 04:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
I'm in no way a "Piano player" wasn't trained that way in the early years, First Accordion...then Organ.......no need for 76 keys at all for me...my own customized styles I only use about 30 of them on stage is all I need to cover any situation & Right Hand comps to beef up the style parts & RH Lead solos are the icing on the cake, but are all secondary to back up my Lead vocals......that's it]


Hey Donny, you don't have to take a back seat to anyone as far as talent goes, and how to use an arranger effectively.

Plus, you're one of the best singers on this site, and you know the material that suits your voice, and pick the best styles and SMF's to support it.

Those MP3's you sent me are awesome...the duet was really touching.

Ian
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 05:02 PM

Thank you Ian for the Kudos.....I'm glad you enjoyed the songs.....especialy the one done using the Tyros2, a TC helicon VH, and a few friends . Backseat?....nah....just expressing my feelings on why I don't need a 76 key unit....although I hope who ever wants the yamaha experience using one eventually gets that chance if ever down the road.....thats is to be determined. Meanwhile just use what you have make great music, keep absorbing from all musical sources that inspire you and have fun!

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-17-2010).]
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 05:09 PM

Yes I agree with Spalding and Ian, why not setup something on those forums mentioned...

And in my view, I would add forums like Sound On Sound and KVR to name a couple more.

Where the membership is HUGE, very, very diverse and is made up of members from around the world and from many different musical backgrounds.

I reckon you could get maybe even a couple of thousand, and THEN Yamaha may start seriously looking at it

Dennis
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 05:34 PM

Don't be fooled or naive Yamaha is well aware of what goes on out in the Arranger Kb world....and believe me they know excactly what they are doing & are very good at it.....SZ isn't even a spec of sand in Yamaha's thoughts in their R&D department...
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 06:09 PM

For once & for all...YOU PEOPLE DON'T GET IT!

Some of us love the Yamaha sound, and style availability, but we want 76 keys...why should we have to buy another brand to get 76 keys, just because Yamaha is so stubborn..??

That's the REAL issue here. If we (76'ers)all wanted another brand that has 76 we would not be bitching! We would just buy it and be happy.
Do you thinl we are hitting on this just to be troublesome, Hell no!
Lee S.
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 06:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
For once & for all...YOU PEOPLE DON'T GET IT!

Some of us love the Yamaha sound, and style availability, but we want 76 keys...why should we have to buy another brand to get 76 keys, just because Yamaha is so stubborn..??

That's the REAL issue here. If we (76'ers)all wanted another brand that has 76 we would not be bitching! We would just buy it and be happy.
Do you thinl we are hitting on this just to be troublesome, Hell no!
Lee S.



Just get a 76 controller & a Tyros 4 if you just HAVE TO HAVE THAT GREAT YAMAHA SOUND...........and down the road maybe one day they might make a 76 Tyros or S series unit....but that could be a very long time if at all......so how much do you want the Yamaha sound vs a 76 key option?
What's more important to you?...now that's reality.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-17-2010).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 06:37 PM

IMO you don’t even have to do a petition. Yamaha is quite aware that a 76 key arranger is welcomed. That is not the issue. Again, they do make 76 key arrangers in the DGX and the Motif XS. Also, all the other manufacturers of arrangers make 76 key arrangers. So don’t be fooled Yamaha knows there is a market. The concern for Yamaha is would it prevent their existing customers from buying their keyboard and would it help to fuel the existing divisional rivalry?


As Yamaha has shown is if you create a great sounding product, giving more to existing customers would not prevent them from buying the keyboard.
Just look at the T4, some persons could have done with out the blue lights, but is that stopping them from getting the T4? No because there are a lot more interesting things that would compel them to buy the T4. Same thing with the voices in the styles. In fact the voices in the styles may help Yamaha to get sales because they were lacking in that area compared to Korg and Roland.

And, persons saying that they don’t need 76 keys is only being said now because they don’t have it. The same thing was said about audio recording on a Yamaha arranger, a sampler on a Yamaha arranger and probably was said by some persons about blue lights but some of those same persons still bought the next T arranger despite it having those features they claim to despised. .
The fact that persons would buy a T4 when they already have a T3 or T2 only shows that persons are more concerned with how the keyboard sounds. That is the strong point of the Yamaha keyboards.


BTW 76 keys are not just for piano players. And to suggest having a controller 76 key keyboard is not the answer because it defeats the purpose of having a 76 key arranger (that is having every thing all in one). And, it is kind of strange a suggestion like that coming from a person who things having a module is too much work to set-up.


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TTG
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 07:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
For once & for all...YOU PEOPLE DON'T GET IT!



I believe it is YOU that doesn't "get it", Lee.

The 61 note Tyros was introduced...there was small debate on SZ for 76.

The 61-note Tyros2 was introduced...another little buzz on SZ about a 76.

The 61-note Tyros3 was introduced...there was another debate and a poorly done poll.

The 61-note Tyros4 was introduced...

Now, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out there will be a 61-note Tyros5.

Now, you can speculate all you want about the reasons why they don't, but even if you do find out why, that is not going to change things.

Spalding had the best idea so far.

All Diki has done is use the whole issue to draw attention to himself and to launch criticism at the company...do you honestly think that kind of behaviour will force them to make a 76'er?

If it is so important to you, then follow Spalding's advice...if Diki can get off his little soapbox and stop his useless grandstanding, and actually do something constructive instead of feeding his ego, you just might get their attention...and the right kind of attention at that.

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
Yes I agree with Spalding and Ian, why not setup something on those forums mentioned...

Dennis


A nice idea in theory...but, it ain't going to happen.

We can see there are a few here who happen to like the attention they get from being on their soapbox, or continually putting forth unproven speculations and criticisms.

For these people, doing a poll would be too much effort, and not enough glory, and it would be riskier in the event the results were against them....they certainly wouldn't want to fail after all the mean and mocking comments and their constant assertions they had all the answers.

No, these people are all talk...and talk is cheap...and easier than actually doing something.

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 07:39 PM

Talk? All a poll is is "Talk". No one did a pll for Roland to make a G70,for SA voices on the T2 for changing the casing from the T1 to T2. If Yamaha chooses not to see the want of a Yamaha 76 key arranger by multiple persons here just on SZ why do you think a Poll would make a difference? Again, show me the poll that was done on including XLR, flash memory, blue lights and sliders and then we could talk about a poll for a good 76 key Yamaha arranger.

------------------
TTG
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 07:58 PM

All the posting up to now has done nothing...so, obviously the method isn't working.

Reality check:

Did someone from Yamaha marketing post that they'd be making a TOTL or MOTL 76'er?

So, it ain't working.

Spalding's idea of a poll taken at different sites and forums is the only way you'll get hard data.

So, you can keep wasting your time criticizing, or you could actually do something constructive.

I can send the results to Head Office, but I can't send what I don't have.

You guys are lazier than me, and that's saying something.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 08:14 PM

No offense, but that is quite absurd, saying I am bringing up this subject to draw attention to myself... Is every post where you praise Yamaha done for the same purpose..? Of course not. So why are mine?

Listen, you guys need to get a grip! We aren't discussing Darfur, we aren't discussing Obamacare, and to be perfectly frank, ONLY those that actually DO want a 76 PSR or Tyros ought to be involved in the discussion at all... Why so many of you that are already happy with what you have are so apparently troubled that some of us AREN'T is quite frankly, puzzling me no end...

It's not like the 76-ers are telling the 61 players that they ought to want 76's too... No-one has seriously suggested that Yamaha in any way whatsoever DROP the products that already satisfy those that want them. I am confused as to just WHY they honestly give a toss one way or the other... But they do. Just READ this wellspring of protest at the thought that Yamaha might like to service those that play 76's as well as they service those that play 61's. Hardly earth shattering, I would have thought.

You guys are happy with your 61's... WE GET IT! But, SO WHAT? What on earth has that got to do with the fact that we AREN'T happy with Yamaha's 76's? You don't play them, don't WANT to play them, don't seem to have any stake in the issue at all.

And sorry, but Yamaha already knows MY needs. If they can't extrapolate the need for a decent 76 from the myriad posts about it here, over the years, 'putting the numbers' together for them won't change a thing. Personally, having listened to quite a bit of double-talk from Yamaha directly ("there's no demand", "The last one we made sold badly", blah, blah, blah, easily disprovable facts) and heard just HOW careful they are to toe the company line even when it flies in the face of the facts, I still remain convinced the ACTUAL reason the 76 PSR doesn't get made is how badly it would affect YPG and DGX sales. And you'll certainly NEVER get a Yamaha rep to lay that out for you in plain English!

Let's face it, guys... Raise your hands, S910 users, if you would be happy gigging a YPG or DGX if the made it in a 61? Yep, didn't think so! There is a HUGE gap in capability between the arranger division's arrangers, and the 'home piano' divisions arrangers, even the TOTL Clavinova is a pale shadow of the T3, let alone the T4. As I have said, I personally don't care if a MOTL 76 is branded as a DGX, or a PSR. I really couldn't care less what is printed on the front panel! But currently, Yamaha have this huge hole in their line-up, and my needs fall RIGHT into it. And, I honestly believe, so do many here.

I truly believe that Yamaha are only TOO aware of the need, but that their current corporate structure is too inflexible to allow them to fill it. And, I'm really sorry to have to say it, but I honestly DO believe that the majority of Yamaha 61 players chiming in on this issue that has NOTHING to do with them is basically, as I said earlier, a really bad case of "I've got mine... who CARES what you want?!'

Or why else are they posting?
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 08:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
There is a HUGE gap in capability between the arranger division's arrangers, and the 'home piano' divisions arrangers, even the TOTL Clavinova is a pale shadow of the T3, let alone the T4. As I have said, I personally don't care if a MOTL 76 is branded as a DGX, or a PSR. I really couldn't care less what is printed on the front panel! But currently, Yamaha have this huge hole in their line-up, and my needs fall RIGHT into it. And, I honestly believe, so do many here.


Yes I agree with this comment Diki. I HAVE tried them in store, there is a world if difference in the style engines, and even the polyphony.

But you know the old sales instructions....always extol the benefits as they apply to the buyer (in this case Yamaha), and the improvements (in this case sales) they will get out of it.

Somehow, and with all respect for your campaign, and you (I would like one myself), just posting it here on SZ is virtually the same as me shouting to you across the giant pond

Dennis
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 08:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I truly believe that Yamaha are only TOO aware of the need, but that their current corporate structure is too inflexible to allow them to fill it.


So, you say you believe that Yamaha's corporate structure is too inflexible to allow them to make a 76'er?

So, why are you still harping about getting a 76 note arranger?

It must be the attention...

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 08:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
Somehow, and with all respect for your campaign, and you (I would like one myself), just posting it here on SZ is virtually the same as me shouting to you across the giant pond

Dennis



Shouting across the pond, even on a soapbox, would still be about as effective...

Dennis, Diki believes that Yamaha's corporate structure is too inflexible to allow them to make a 76'er.

So, in effect, he is saying he believes they can't make one.

Now, what do you think the chances are of Yamaha restructuring their corporation because Diki and a few others (including me and you) want a 76-note arranger?

Of course, we have no real data to show how many actually want one, other than the poorly done poll and a few posts by people who wouldn't buy a Yamaha no matter how many keys it had.

The dominoes keep falling....

I still think Spalding's idea was the best...if the numbers are there, the chances of some changes being made will be much improved.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-17-2010).]
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/17/10 09:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
I still think Spalding's idea was the best...if the numbers are there, the chances of some changes being made will be much improved. Ian


Yep, I can only agree with that

And even a 20% chance is better than nothing....It would give Yamaha a reason to perhaps launch more intensive and focussed market research if they see a groundswell.

Not just some hopes and wishes from this place

Dennis
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/18/10 09:19 AM

Ian,
Don't you think it's a problem when a company's corporate structure gets in the way of providing customers a product they WANT TO BUY TODAY!

Be honest here! Take off your Yamaha hat for just a monent.

Lee S.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/18/10 09:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
Ian,
Don't you think it's a problem when a company's corporate structure gets in the way of providing customers a product they WANT TO BUY TODAY!

Be honest here! Take off your Yamaha hat for just a monent.

Lee S.


Lee,

I did not say that Yamaha's corporate structure was too inflexible to provide what was allegedly wanted.

Diki did.

If you check my messages, you will find that I did not agree with him...I just re-stated his position, and how Spalding's suggestion would probably get the best results.

My own view was stated several times, and that was brought about by the answer I received directly from Yamaha Head Office, and also from the responses at my clinics and demos.

Diki and KingFrog got the same answer from two different reps, however, Diki chooses to form his own take on the situation, and, of course, he is entitled to his own opinion.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/18/10 10:43 AM

Trouble is, my 'opinion' happens to fit the facts, and nothing else does.

Maybe there is an altogether different reason that reflects the real truth of the matter, but I haven't seen or heard it yet.

OK... you asked to see some real figures. Let's just take this thread ALONE. There are eight current 76 owners that WOULD move or add a 76 Yamaha, compared to TWO current 76 users that wouldn't that have posted that opinion here. Of course, because they already have what they want, and adding a MOTL or TOTL 76 to Yamaha's line up wouldn't changer what they want or use (mind you, you'd be amazed at how some people can change their minds once something actually IS available!), none of the 61 naysayers are included in these figures (and I STILL haven't worked out why they are posting on the issue at all ).

So out of ten 76 users that DID respond, 80% of them would buy a Yamaha 76. And, to be honest, if you look at how Yamaha dominate in the 61 arena, this is unsurprising. If Yamaha make the best 61's (for most people), it stands to reason they would make the best 76's, too. Except their current corporate structure forbids them to do this.

80% of the 76 market is nothing to dismiss so lightly. But Yamaha ARE. No other company makes 76's as a loss leader for their other arrangers. ALL of them make a profit. Why Yamaha doesn't want a piece of this (the larger piece, from these figures!) is one of life's great mysteries.
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/18/10 04:01 PM

'80% of the 76 market is nothing to dismiss so lightly. But Yamaha ARE. No other company makes 76's as a loss leader for their other arrangers. ALL of them make a profit. Why Yamaha doesn't want a piece of this (the larger piece, from these figures!) is one of life's great mysteries.'

You cant be serious Diki !! Did you just extrapolate 80% of the 76key arranger market would by a 76 key yamaha from a poll of maybe 10 people who said they would buy a 76 key yamaha on this forum ?

If you made that as a serious statement then your credibility in terms of your business acumen is shot to hell. You can critiscise yamaha's business strategies all you want but you cant convince anyone with half a brain with figures like that. If yamaha made their business decisions based on the logic you just demonstrated they would be bust in a week.
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 02:38 AM

Don't be absurd! If eight out of ten people on ANY thread said they preferred Yamaha 61's to any other brand's 61's, the same Yamaha fanboys that want to shoot this idea down would be touting it as incontrovertible proof of how good Yamaha's are!

And if eight out of ten people on any open keyboard thread went in favor of it, you too would be using it as 'evidence' of the validity of your point.

Of COURSE it's not scientific proof. Neither are exit polls, or Gallup Polls used to 'prove' all KINDS of idiotic things about politics. But it's all we got, here. And, sorry, old boy, but if the figures were reversed, and 8 out of 10 people said they WOULDN'T be interested in a Yamaha 76, you would be all over that as 'proof' of whatever YOU feel, too!

When 'there's no demand for them' is the #1 hoary chestnut dribbled out every time this idea comes up, one would at least expect that figures here would reflect figures in general. After all, take a poll, probably there are more Yamaha players on this forum than any other brand. Apparently, that DOESN'T at least give a good indication that Yamaha are the best selling arrangers. No numbers here proves ANYTHING, apparently...

Here's the ridiculous part... If no numbers here account for anything, then those of us that think there IS a demand for them are EXACTLY as right as those that don't think there is!

I made the point that, ON THIS THREAD ALONE, those were the numbers. If you bother to go and look at the vast majority of threads where this topic is discussed, you generally only see a majority of 61 players against the idea. If you look at the responses of ONLY 76 users, the figures go up DRASTICALLY.

This topic has a very 'en point' title. and a fair percentage of those of us here that DO play 76's chimed in. Sorry the results weren't what you wanted..

Why don't YOU start a thread to disprove it? We've done our bit. At least to dispel the myths. If Yamaha want something more scientific, they could perhaps pay the idiots they have currently doing 'market research' to ask someone OTHER than Yamaha playing 61 users... I don't know about you, but if I wanted to know something about a market I didn't currently operate in, I wouldn't ask my existing customers! I'd ask my competitors' customers...

But hey, what do I know?
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 03:18 AM

Which is why I have always said the issue is not whether 76 key players would buy a good Yamaha 76 key arranger (even Yamaha knows the answer to that) but the real issue for Yamaha is whether a 76 key would stop their existing customers (61 key players) from buying Yamaha.




------------------
TTG
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 04:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
But hey, what do I know?


Well, we do know this about you.

You believe that Yamaha can't/won't make a 76'er because their corporate structure won't allow it.

Then in the next breath, you ask them to make something you just finished saying they couldn't make. Duh?

You got a Teflon brain son...nothing seems to stick.

Then you assume that a company would change it's corporate structure just because of a dozen or so posts on this forum...most of which are filled with your assumptions.

Spalding is correct...you have no business sense.

So, what do you know?

Zilch!

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 04:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Which is why I have always said the issue is not whether 76 key players would buy a good Yamaha 76 key arranger (even Yamaha knows the answer to that) but the real issue for Yamaha is whether a 76 key would stop their existing customers (61 key players) from buying Yamaha.


Diki believes that Yamaha's corporate structure is too inflexible to allow them to make a 76'er.

So, in effect, he is saying he believes they can't make one.

Then, he asks Yamaha to make what he just said they can't make.

Now, let's pretend he is right.

Do you think Yamaha will restructure their corporation because of the posts here on SZ?

We have no real data to show how many actually want one, other than the poorly done poll and a few posts by people who wouldn't buy a Yamaha no matter how many keys it had.

Now, let's say that the reason is what was stated by the reps...one speaking to Diki and one to KingFrog...that reason being the market isn't big enough/important enough to warrant a 76'er.

Do you think Yamaha will set up production of a 76'er because of the posts here on SZ, most of which were made by people who stated on other threads, that they wouldn't buy a Yamaha no matter how many keys it had.

No matter what we choose to believe, the end result will be the same.

Only real way to solve the issue...Spalding's suggestion is the best so far.

Since Diki has spearheaded this campaign, he should do the survey....Yamaha has already done theirs.

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 05:20 AM

“the market isn't big enough/important enough to warrant a 76'er.”

Really? So why did Yamaha make a PSR 9000 pro?
And, the devil is in the detail.

If you are talking a Yamaha making a 76 key keyboard like the G70 and E80, PA1x (the 61 key version), then Yamaha is correct. A heavy and bulky keyboard would not help Yamaha.


But, if Yamaha makes the nest PSR in only a 76 keys and not heavy, no more expensive than the current PSR but give it some styles sounds and features of the T4, the person who would ordinarily buy the PSR will still buy the new PSR and Yamaha will get the additional market of those who want a good 76 key Yamaha arranger. It is not rocket science people.




------------------
TTG
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 06:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
[BBut, if Yamaha makes the nest PSR in only a 76 keys and not heavy, no more expensive than the current PSR but give it some styles sounds and features of the T4, the person who would ordinarily buy the PSR will still buy the new PSR and Yamaha will get the additional market of those who want a good 76 key Yamaha arranger. It is not rocket science people.
[/B]


It seems Mr.Diki doesn't agree with you.

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
First of all, the idea that Yamaha would stop 61 production if a 76 was made is idiotic.


I agree...giving up one of the best selling 61's would be idiotic.

No reflection on you, Genny.

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-19-2010).]
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 10:22 AM

For once & for all...SOME of YOU PEOPLE DON'T GET IT!
Some of us love the Yamaha sound, and style availability, but we want 76 keys...why should we have to buy another brand to get 76 keys, just because Yamaha is so stubborn..??

That's the REAL issue here. If we (76'ers)all wanted another brand that has 76 we would not be bitching! We would just buy it and be happy.

Do you think we are hitting on this just to be troublesome, no!

Something to add...in watching some of the Yamaha PRO's demos..they RUN OUT OF KEYS!
I bet you a deluxe taco that they would love to have 76 keys!
Lee S.
Posted by: mr9000

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 10:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
All Diki has done is use the whole issue to draw attention to himself..do you honestly think that kind of behaviour will force them to make a 76'er?..if Diki can get off his little soapbox and stop his useless grandstanding..
Ian

Sounds akin to BP and how it delt with it's oil spill..Ian..did you & Tony Hayward both get schooled at same business? ..all those people affected by the oil spill should of just got off their soapboxes what with all their attention grabbing ego's..
See both really are like an oil spill,both kind of a disaster,one enviromentally,one public diservice.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 10:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mr9000:
Sounds akin to BP and how it delt with it's oil spill..Ian..did you & Tony Hayward both get schooled at same business?


Now come on now...I'm not as dumb as you look.

I'm about as interested in politics as you are in good manners.

Ian
Posted by: mr9000

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 11:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
I'm not as dumb as you look.
I'm about as interested in politics as you are in good manners.
Ian


I think this would fall into the 'touchy feely lopsided' thing..all in jest,just a stupid fabricated board of lead with blue lighted buttons,minus the 15 needed keys.
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 11:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
For once & for all...SOME of YOU PEOPLE DON'T GET IT!
Some of us love the Yamaha sound, and style availability, but we want 76 keys...why should we have to buy another brand to get 76 keys, just because Yamaha is so stubborn..??

That's the REAL issue here. If we (76'ers)all wanted another brand that has 76 we would not be bitching! We would just buy it and be happy.

Do you think we are hitting on this just to be troublesome, no!

Something to add...in watching some of the Yamaha PRO's demos..they RUN OUT OF KEYS!
I bet you a deluxe taco that they would love to have 76 keys!
Lee S.



no leeboy thats not the real issue. It doesnt matter what you want or the other 7 of you that make up Diki's sample 80% of the 76 key arranger market :-)(i am playing with you both...well with you at least :-)) Its about whether there are enough of you (not 8) who would make additional sales for yamaha alongside their existing mix or make less sales at a higher profit margin for Yamaha the corporation (read higher price)to offset any additional set up costs for the additional 76 key version at lower volume sales. Just so you know, 61 key keyboards outsell all other class of keyboards for obvious reasons to most people .

If you or Diki or anyone care to provide yamaha with hard figures as to the profit they would (not could) make from a survey/petition that demonstrated an additional 800 new 76 key customers chomping at the bit(for example ) , there is no question in my mind that they would seriously look again at their marketing research.

You cant seriously believe that yamaha the corporation is simply 'stubborn' about not wanting to make a 76 key fully fledged tyros product ?

Can you ?????
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 12:15 PM

'Don't be absurd! If eight out of ten people on ANY thread said they preferred Yamaha 61's to any other brand's 61's, the same Yamaha fanboys that want to shoot this idea down would be touting it as incontrovertible proof of how good Yamaha's are!'

Diki , you made the correlation not me ....You said

'80% of the 76 market is nothing to dismiss so lightly. But Yamaha ARE. No other company makes 76's as a loss leader for their other arrangers. ALL of them make a profit. Why Yamaha doesn't want a piece of this (the larger piece, from these figures!) is one of life's great mysteries.

You make the correlation that somehow Yamaha was dismissing 80% of the 76 key arranger market . Where did you get that from ? If you meant 80% of 10 people then why shouldnt yamaha dismiss them ? I would . Wouldnt you ?

If i did a survey of 1 and that person said they would buy a 76 key yamaha arranger then (according to the figures from my survey ) yamaha has ignored 100% of the 76 Key arranger market ! Absurdity indeed !

Listen Diki , you are tieinhg yourself up in knots over God knows what !!

Every post does not have to be a battle of wills.

Simply provide yamaha with real numbers and they will listen. I dont know of any company that would deliberately turn their nose up at a real quantifiable profit margin greater than what they are currently achieveing with no downside. If yamaha did this routinely they would be out of business . From where i am sitting , the only arranger keyboard companies that have gone bust , or stopped making 76 key and/or 61 key instruments are those that couldnt make sufficient profit on them.

Thats the bottom line. If you dont believe that, then there is nothing more anyone can say.
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 03:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
I agree...giving up one of the best selling 61's would be idiotic.

No reflection on you, Genny.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-19-2010).]


You poor thing Iana! You still don’t get it. Yamaha would not be giving up anything they would be gaining.
You see the PSR 910 is not selling well because of it being 61 keys but it is doing well because of its sounds and styles and the fact that it is light.

Unless you can prove otherwise Iana, if Yamaha made the next PSR the same size and weight of the proposed new Casio WK7500, it would not suffer less sales because of it being 76 keys.


------------------
TTG
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 04:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Unless you can prove otherwise Iana, if Yamaha made the next PSR the same size and weight of the proposed new Casio WK7500, it would not suffer less sales because of it being 76 keys.


Now, that's quite a statement, Genny.

How could you prove what you say is true, if they won't make the PSR instrument without substantial evidence the market is worth pursuing?

It's best for you to follow Spalding's suggestion..."Simply provide Yamaha with real numbers and they will listen."

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-19-2010).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 05:06 PM

Are you for real?
Is that what Yamaha is telling you that they are not making a PSR with changes?

So the next PSR will be the exact same keyboard as it predecessor?

There is already substantial evidence right in Yamaha’s camp that the lightweight reasonably priced arranger market is worth pursuing. Just look at the sales from the PSR 3000 to the S900 and S910.
The 61 vs 76 key factor was not an issue with the increase in sales.

If there is already substantial proof that a 76 key lightweight arranger that is reasonably price would do well, why do you think Yamaha is going to take a petition that was organized by Diki seriously? Yamaha knows for a fact that a 76 key arranger is in demand because they made the PSR 9000, and they currently make the DGX and the Motif XS and XF.


------------------
TTG
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 05:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Yamaha knows for a fact that a 76 key arranger is in demand because they made the PSR 9000, and they currently make the DGX and the Motif XS and XF.


Just how do you know that Yamaha knows for a fact that a 76 key TOTL/MOTL arranger is in demand?

Where did you get your information?

I got my answer right from Yamaha Head Office...they don't feel a 76 note TOTL/MOTL arranger is needed at the present time.

Diki got the same answer as I from a Yamaha rep, but he chooses to to put forward the theory they aren't making one because corporate structure won't allow it.

The reason is now irrelevant.

If I am right, then nothing will happen until there is a reason for them to make one.

IF Diki is right, they certainly won't restructure the company to enable making a TOTL/MOTL 76'er unless there is a reason to make one.

So, you, or Diki, can provide it by following Spalding's excellent suggestion..."Simply provide Yamaha with real numbers and they will listen."

Ian




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-19-2010).]
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 05:48 PM

Hi Spalding 1968,
Yes, they have a problem
Look at it this way...let's keep it simple.
Do you think Korg, Keton Roland etc are stupid and would build a kbd that they didn't sell enough of. NO way!

The research is already done.

Us folks here on SZ is a rounding error.
Plenty of sales for a 76...it's already proven.

Lee S.
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 06:05 PM

Ah...Ha..MORE proof...
Why in the world did they not make the new Roland VR700 (designed for gigging) 61 keys??
(from their announcement)
and it's light weight too.

•76-key waterfall keyboards offers smooth glissandos, fast action, and provides enough keys for splits.

Exactly!

The freeking research is done!
Lee S.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 06:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
Ah...Ha..MORE proof...
Why in the world did they not make the new Roland VR700 (designed for gigging) 61 keys??


Why in the world did they not make the GW-8 with 76 keys?

Ha ha...more proof.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 10:57 PM

I would like to thank all of the non-76 playing arranger players on this thread for bumping it up to over 180 posts. If Yamaha pay ANY attention to this forum (and I sincerely doubt it, as they aren't in the slightest interested in any opinions other than those of their existing 61 customers) at least having this thread display such legs might show them the depth of interest in it.

Makes you think, doesn't it? If those that have NO stake whatsoever in this debate had simply left it alone, it might have simply withered on the vine like most good ideas here...

I also wonder if I have got stuck in a re-run of Groundhog Day, forced to listen to the same tired arguments over and over again, no matter how many times I refute them.

Let me spell them out ONE MORE TIME. Please bookmark this page, so the next time you feel like spewing the same old arguments, you can look up this post and save yourself (and me!) some aggravation.

1. Making a 76 PSR will have NO IMPACT on whether they make a 61. Only an IDIOT wold suggest otherwise. It will also have little impact on 61 sales. Those that like them will still have them, only those that currently HAVE TO use other 76's have any stake whatsoever in this debate (kind of cuts just about ALL of you naysayers out, though, doesn't it?).

2. Yamaha HAVE changed their lines in the past. Asking them to do it is NOT asking for the impossible. They currently make several 76 arrangers. But no GOOD ones (if you consider a PSR S910 a good arranger.... anyone want to argue THAT? ). I care nothing whether it is branded DGX or PSR. Just that they make the bloody thing.

3. Yamaha made ONE TOTL 76 in the past. It failed because a) it was released well after the 61, so most customers wanting a 9000 series already had one, and b) it had an underpowered CPU, was buggy, and did not work well. NONE of which have a single thing to do with the number of keys.

4. A PSR 76 need be little heavier than a 61. Roland made an excellent 76 with speakers a scant four pounds heavier than an S910. With a MUCH better build quality, I might add. Given all the unused real estate on the T4, a 76 version need be little bigger or heavier also.

It's NOT my job to provide Yamaha with accurate market research. But there are 'truths' held very dear by some of the antagonists on this forum that have been 'proved' by as tenuous a straw poll as was held here. And quite frankly, what DO you consider a representative sampling figure? I can pretty much guarantee that, no matter how big it gets (consider how few regular posters we have here), if it disagrees with your opinion, it won't be big enough! All this thread has shown is, of those currently playing 76's here that were willing to chime in on a thread that garners SUCH vitriol from its' antagonist (none of whom have ANY stake in the issue), the majority, NOT the minority showed great interest in the product. And that is ALL that small polls can do. As I said, if Yamaha start polling ALL 76 users instead of JUST their own 61 users, they are likely to get VERY different results. That is pretty obvious...

And, I still don't get it. If Yamaha are the BEST 61 arrangers, why shouldn't their 76 arrangers be the best, also? You are actively arguing against that point. Because, at the moment, Yamaha's current 76's are NOT the best. Why would you not want them to be?

The absurdities you guys keep trotting out amaze me.
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/19/10 11:40 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by leeboy:
[B]Hi Spalding 1968,
Yes, they have a problem
Look at it this way...let's keep it simple.
Do you think Korg, Keton Roland etc are stupid and would build a kbd that they didn't sell enough of. NO way!

The research is already done.

Us folks here on SZ is a rounding error.
Plenty of sales for a 76...it's already proven.

Leeboy lets keep it simple. Do you know the operating costs of Yamaha Roland or Ketron ?

Do you know the profit margins on yamaha roland or ketron products ?

Do you know the return on capital that roland , yamaha or ketron expect from their resources ?

If you dont know the answers to these questions (and neither do i ,i might add)

Then you are just speculating about whether or not these manufacturers are making a profit T

Let me just speculate here too (it seems like thats everyones favourite pasttime on the synthzone. But i have some understanding of the costs of manufacturing, marketing and distributing products. i might suggest that the jury is still out as to whether Ketron have sold enough units to as much as BREAK EVEN yet let alone make ANY profit

And finally .....Roland did make a keyboard they could not sell enough of, Gem made keyboards they could not sell enough of. and even Yamaha made keyboards they could not sell enough of. They only realised this AFTER they had made them.

Here's my last business lesson for today. ;-) Making a 76 key arranger keyboard is not the issue. Selling sufficient of them baring in mind the factors i outlined above is whats key.
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 12:29 AM

Yamaha already make 76's. There's that issue done with, once and for all. The issue is, will they ever make a GOOD one?
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 01:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
The absurdities you guys keep trotting out amaze me.


Absurdities?

You're the one saying they can't make one...and then demanding them to make it.

Contra-Diki-ing yourself over and over.

And, you have not given one shred of hard evidence that it is economically viable...or even necessary.

Now, that's what we can call, "absurd".

Read Spalding's posts...he makes a lot of sense...far more than you've been making.

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 03:00 AM

This is not speculation but something that happened in the past.
Roland had the G1000 (which was 76 keys). Most of their next arrangers up to the G70 were 76 keys. If there were no market do you think they would have made the newer keyboard 76 keys?

Korg made the PA1x pro (76 keys). The successor to that was the PA2x pro (76 keys). If there were no market do you think they would have made the PA2x pro?
Ketron made the SD1 (76 keys). The newest flagship (Audya) was 76 keys. Do you think they would have made their new Flagship 76 keys if they did not think there was a market?

Lionstrack made the Mediastation. The first MS had 76 keys.
So there is your research done already. Diki does not have to do anything more. The work has already been done.




------------------
TTG
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 03:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
1. Making a 76 PSR will have NO IMPACT on whether they make a 61. Only an IDIOT wold suggest otherwise. All this thread has shown is, of those currently playing 76's here that were willing to chime in on a thread that garners SUCH vitriol from its' antagonist (none of whom have ANY stake in the issue), the majority, NOT the minority showed great interest in the product.


Well, Genny believes they should only make a 76...and drop the 61.

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
“But, if Yamaha makes the nest PSR in only a 76 keys and not heavy, no more expensive than the current PSR but give it some styles sounds and features of the T4, the person who would ordinarily buy the PSR will still buy the new PSR and Yamaha will get the additional market of those who want a good 76 key Yamaha arranger. It is not rocket science people.


Does that make him an idiot?

The only antagonistic views have been expressed by you, with your continual vitriolic criticism (unfounded, by the way) of Yamaha's corporate structure.

You're losing ground with antics like that, son.

No one's going to take you seriously.

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 04:03 AM

Spalding said: “Making a 76 key arranger keyboard is not the issue. Selling sufficient of them baring in mind the factors i outlined above is whats key.”


Now the chickens are coming home to roost.
And as we all know, two important points on selling a product are marketing and placement.

Just look at how Yamaha marketed the T4. The selling point for the T4 were the new SA2 voices, the styles and the vocal voices. The flash memory and XLR input while mentioned are not the selling point of the T4. Nor is the fact it is 61 keys. And now in the world of online demos to get people interested in the product, we all know Yamaha is Queen at that.

Also placement of the keyboard in the right stores is very Important as we saw with the silly decision Roland made with the G70.

P.S My position is not that Yamaha drop the 61 key PSR but add 15 keys to it there is a difference. (hint hint marketing) .


------------------
TTG
Posted by: kbrkr

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 09:19 AM

This is the funniest thing I have read on this board in a long time.....

"Contra-Diki-ing"

This MUST make it into Wikipedia as urban slang in the next update.

That's Fabulous!!!!!
(sorry it's at your expense Diki!)
Posted by: kbrkr

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 09:23 AM

As an aside...I recently tried to purchase a Roland Fantom G7 from both Guitar Center and Sam Ash. Neither store stocks 76 key keyboards, they are special order. The only maintain stock of 61 or 88 key keyboards. The reason being most of the public will only buy a 61 or an 88 key.

So I don't think the argument is specific to Arranger keyboards and Yamaha, this seems to be an industry trend. That's probably why you won't see ANY 76 key arranger keyboards at a music store; let alone high priced arrangers like the Tyros 4; they are just to expensive to stock and / or they don't sell well.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 11:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kbrkr:
The only maintain stock of 61 or 88 key keyboards. The reason being most of the public will only buy a 61 or an 88 key.

So I don't think the argument is specific to Arranger keyboards and Yamaha, this seems to be an industry trend. That's probably why you won't see ANY 76 key arranger keyboards at a music store;


Seems to be the same with my clients...61 or 88, and those 88's have to be weighted like a piano.

Most workstations are sold with 88, as most pros use them on stage as digital pianos first and foremost...think of it, piano would be the most essential sound for a keyboardist, and that the instrument feel and respond like one would be important.

On arrangers, "piano" is just one of the many right hand sounds the player uses, and 61 unweighted is perfect.

Most pro players who play piano over SMF, generally use Workstations, and 88 weighted is by far the most popular keyboard size and type.

Ask any retailer what he sells more of in workstations... 61, 76 or 88...and in mid to high end arrangers, what sells more...61 or 76?

Ian
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 11:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kbrkr:
As an aside...I recently tried to purchase a Roland Fantom G7 from both Guitar Center and Sam Ash. Neither store stocks 76 key keyboards, they are special order. The only maintain stock of 61 or 88 key keyboards. The reason being most of the public will only buy a 61 or an 88 key.

So I don't think the argument is specific to Arranger keyboards and Yamaha, this seems to be an industry trend. That's probably why you won't see ANY 76 key arranger keyboards at a music store; let alone high priced arrangers like the Tyros 4; they are just to expensive to stock and / or they don't sell well.


the thing is Kbrkr everyone that actually has a finacial interest (ie could lose real money) wont take the risk of stocking a product and using floor space on a product they struggle to sell. Go to any music store and try and see how many arranger keyboards there are on display. Any arranger keyboard. Then look for shops that stock 76 key arrangers.... You might be looking quite a bit longer....

Its only the people who have no finacial interest (ie cant lose any money) that are insisting that if someone else risks their money they will make oodles of profit .

Go figure.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 10-20-2010).]
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 11:31 AM

ahhh whats the use ....

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 10-20-2010).]
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 12:02 PM

A BRAND NEW PRODUCT from Roland!

The stage ready...
VR-700
76-key Performance Stage Organ/Digital Piano with Rotary Speaker Modeling, 9 Drawbars, Waterfall Keys, and USB File Playback

it is ONLY in 76 Keys!

76 is nice...lighter than a hammer 88, yet enough keys to do most everything.
That's why they make them!
When 61 is not enough.

PEOPLE BUY THEM. That's a given, or they sure would not be introducng new ones!

Why Yamaha won't build a 76 Tyros IMHO is that the marketing group has PSR on there brain...they need to look outside of the box.

It's not the 76 keys its parameters they put on a product line(s) so as to not step on the other lines.

Otherwise...Hey..why not put FULL T4 functinality in a Clavinova??
I might buy one too!

KOrg didn't do it either, as the 88 key arranger they have use PA-500 engine, not the PA800.

Lee S.
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 12:52 PM

leeboy. A 76 Key arranger keyboard is the not the same thing as a 76 Key keyboard. The markets are completely different .

Will you be exchanging your arranger for this ???????

You are confusing the two and argueing apples with water mellons. And then making correlations between the two. You have been spending too much time with Diki ? (just playing with you). :-)

You said

'Otherwise...Hey..why not put FULL T4 functinality in a Clavinova??
I might buy one too!

KOrg didn't do it either, as the 88 key arranger they have use PA-500 engine, not the PA800.
'

You hit the nail on the head ! Perhaps both Korg and Yamaha know a little more about the needs of their piano player customers than you think they do.
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 01:25 PM

Maybe it's proximity to the Northern Lights... maybe it's those cheap Canadian drugs and healthcare, who knows? But it DOES appear as if the further North you go, the harder it is to remember things!

I have only ever said that CURRENTLY, Yamaha's organization seems to exclude making good 76's. Please make an effort to not bring this point up over and over, Ian. It only makes you seem desperate (and petty). Prior to the PSR9000pro, the EXACT same argument could have been made (and probably was!) by probably the same people. Yamaha will NEVER make a 76 TOTL or MOTL arranger...

But they did! They changed. So what if they failed..? It had NOTHING to do with the number of keys. If they can change in the past, they can change in the future. QED.

BTW, yes, only an idiot would suggest that Yamaha cease 61 production and concentrate on 76's Don't lump me in with those that aren't thinking this through. I'd also like to know who is running Ketron, Korg, Lionstracs, Bohm and all the OTHER arranger companies that are making charitable contributions to make up for all the losses that a 76 is apparently incurring..? Because, let us be clear, if you say that you can't make money with a 76, that basically not only makes those companies into charities, but also Yamaha's own DGX, YPG and Clavinova lines loss leaders, too. And, as desperately as you argue that the PSR 76 NOT be made, surely you are also arguing for the DGX and YOG and NP80v lines cease production... No, you say? Those lines are making money? But how could that be?! It flies completely in the face of your argument.

Oh, one more point... if Roland's cessation of 76 arranger production is PROOF that there's no demand, doesn't that also prove that their cessation of MOTL and TOTL 61 production also prove that there's no demand for those types of 61's, too? The gaps in your logic could pass a battleship (or at least let a 76 through with room to spare!).

But let's keep going. I need the laugh this thread gives me every day...
Posted by: 124

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 01:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Maybe it's proximity to the Northern Lights... maybe it's those cheap Canadian drugs and healthcare, who knows? But it DOES appear as if the further North you go, the harder it is to remember things!


Hey, I'm waaaay farther north than Ian. Damn, now I've forgotten what I was going to say. Might as well go into my igloo basement and rock out on my Pa1XPro.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 02:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Oh, one more point... if Roland's cessation of 76 arranger production is PROOF that there's no demand, doesn't that also prove that their cessation of MOTL and TOTL 61 production also prove that there's no demand for those types of 61's, too? D


Roland's cessation of 76's (and 61's) is due to two things.

1. Idiotic marketing.

2. Nothing new (still using old technology) to put in new models.

You and Fran are the Barney Rubble and Fred Flintstone of ArrangerRock...still playing dinosaurs.

If 76'ers were so popular and such moneymakers, then the GW-8 would have had more than the 5 octaves with which it was blessed.

Again, you can keep the thread going all you like...I'm sure Yamaha loves the advertising...and since your argument holds no water whatsoever (see Spalding's posts for more refutation) and because you've been poking your own holes in it as well, it's been great advertising.

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 02:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I have only ever said that CURRENTLY, Yamaha's organization seems to exclude making good 76's. Please make an effort to not bring this point up over and over, Ian. It only makes you seem desperate (and petty).


Actually Diki, for a full experience of pettiness, we could just read your theory (rather, your belief) on Yamaha's corporate structure...

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I truly believe that Yamaha are only TOO aware of the need, but that their current corporate structure is too inflexible to allow them to fill it.


I'm thinking you're thinking if you say it enough times, Yamaha will immediately restructure.

Regardless, nothing will be made without the marketing mavens' approval, and if they have read this thread, I'm sure it has brought more than a few chuckles, if not outright guffaws.

You see, all we can do is request what is wanted...the outcome is beyond our sphere of influence. You've made your request, and so have others, including yours truly.

The result is up to Yamaha.

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 03:22 PM

From a business prospective, it would not make good business sense for Yamaha to make both a 61 key and 76 key version of the same arranger. They would not sell enough of the 76 key version.


If you think it is just conjecture, ask Roland what happened with the E 60 and E 50.

And why do you think Korg came out with the Pasx pro first and then later on came out with the Pa800? Same thing with Ketron and the Audya and Roland with the G70 and Lionstract with the MS?

They all started with the 76 key version.
Having a 61 and 76 key version of the same arranger released at the same time would not be profitable and would show a lack of business sense.


------------------
TTG
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 05:57 PM

Spalding,
It was a response to those that said 76 is not popular, in general. This new Roland is only available in 76 as far as I can tell.
76 is not as taboo as some think.
I did not say it was an arranger...just 76 keys. So it's not 61 or 88 only.

Keys are keys man...when 61 is not enough, 88 is too heavy...you go with 76...does not matter what kind of keyboard it is,

The current Clavinova has T3 stuff inside, so why not T4. Maybe it will happen, maybe when T5 comes out? Why would a pure piano player want a T3 inside? It'a piano and arranger together. For those that want both.

The Korg PA-588 is very much an arranger and it is 88 keys. I would say high MOTL features. It's an arranger for the players that prefer 88 hammer action, but want a full arranger.

Lee S.
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 06:02 PM

Isnt that special 200 posts !!!

Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 06:04 PM

Ginny,
Korg has had no problem selling both.
Plenty of people have bought the PA1XPRO and PA2XPRO. The 61 and 76 are very much the same (yes some differences).
The PA2XPRO is advertised as their flag ship model, not the PA800.
Of course they sell more 61's there cheaper.

We will see what they do next.
IMHO, the 76 will stay

Lee S.
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 08:16 PM

Hey gang...I just got an e-mail from a very high level executive at Yamaha that said if we hit 300, he will make sure they build a 76 key T4....available first quarter!
Only $300 more than the 61! Yeah!

Oh now...where did I leave my pills?
:-)
Lee S.
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 08:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Roland's cessation of 76's (and 61's) is due to two things.

1. Idiotic marketing.

2. Nothing new (still using old technology) to put in new models.


Well, you can't have it BOTH ways... You are the one constantly bringing up Roland's demise in the TOTL and MOTL sectors as 'proof' that 76's don't make money. But now you want to change horses mid-stream.

Baiting me and Fran isn't going to turn your turd of an argument into a gold nugget! No matter HOW many times you trot it out and try to polish it...

For ONCE, you actually got it right as to Roland's demise. Absolutely NOTHING to do with the number of keys. Mind you, I've been saying exactly the same thing for years now. Welcome aboard!

I am amazed that anyone can think that a 76 S910 or T$ is going to compete with ANYTHING that Yamaha currently make. It's utterly obvious that few if any current 61 players will move from the 61 T4 or S910. And no DGX or YPG or NP80v is in the same price bracket, OR technology bracket. MAYBE a few DGX users would 'move on up' to the MOTL market if Yamaha made it, maybe even to the TOTL bracket. but currently, they've already made their mind up they want the extra keys... so Yamaha HAVE to make it for them to stay Yamaha, should they decide they want something better than a BOTL arranger...

So, who is going to buy this mythic beast..? Everyone playing a DIFFERENT manufacturer's 76 that wants the Yamaha capabilities and sounds, and those Yamaha users that want a GOOD 76 arranger from the same company. Yamaha are already comfortable offering an upwards path from the PSR series in the same size... obviously, scavenging sales from a LOWER line is good business sense. But currently, Yamaha don't offer an upward path for any DGX or YPG user, unless you count the Clavinova's, which are STILL years behind even the PSR's...

So Yamaha make it, and the ONLY people that get hurt are the makers of OTHER companies' 76's.

Is that supposed to be BAD for Yamaha? Market dominance across the board? Personally, Korg, Ketron and Wersi must be thanking their lucky stars that Yamaha don't have the sense to go after that one last uncontested market segment...!
Posted by: 124

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 08:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Isnt that special 200 posts !!!



LOL Donny! I reckon on 300+, anyone giving odds?
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/20/10 09:03 PM

Do you know how long this thread would have been if those with absolutely no stake whatsoever in the argument had merely stayed silent?

Maybe ten... definitely less than 20.

Let's hear it for all those that don't care whether Yamaha make one or not..! Thanks for bumping this thread up to a decent size! Allow us to return the favor some time, and if there's something YOU'D like in an arranger that we couldn't care less about one way or the other, allow us to argue ceaselessly against it, to give it more attention than it deserves..!

C'mon, Ian... bet we can make it to 500 if we try!
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 12:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Allow us to return the favor some time, and if there's something YOU'D like in an arranger that we couldn't care less about one way or the other, allow us to argue ceaselessly against it, to give it more attention than it deserves..!

C'mon, Ian... bet we can make it to 500 if we try!


Diki,

I don't know how/why you think I'm against Yamaha making a 76'er...I've told you several times that I'm all for it, and I have sent in many requests.

I'm merely passing on the message I received, and re-stating your position.

Obviously you believe corporate restructuring is the answer, and, somehow, I think you realize that may be beyond your influence.

Again, I raise the curious reluctance of Roland to make the GW-8 a 76'er...since you state that particular market is, "The one last uncontested market segment...!"

Yet they chose to make two 61 note versions of the same instrument, even with all those old unused E-60 keybeds cluttering up the factory floor.

Do you know how long this thread would have been if those with absolute assuredness of their proposal had merely done a proper survey or poll?

A lot shorter, and a lot more useful.

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 03:35 AM

OK so apparently some persons seem to be getting confused with intended markets for keyboards.


The persons who will buy a Roland G70, Pa2x pro, Audya 76, MS are not the same persons who will buy a lightweight compact Yamaha 76 key arranger.

The Yamaha arranger market is primarily the home player. The other brands are targeting the semipro and pro market. And for the semipro and pro market looks and build quality are very important.

Why do you think the G70, PA2x pro, Audya 76 and MS are constructed the way they are?
So if Yamaha were to add a 76 key T4 they would have to build it like the Roland’s and Korgs and like Yamaha said, it would not be worth it for them to do that. It is just too small of a market for them to venture into.

Even adding a 76 key PSR to a 61 key production will not do well for Yamaha. Why? The persons who will buy the 61 key PSR will still buy the 61 key PSR. They may get a few person to buy the 76 key PSR but it would not be enough for Yamaha to come out ahead. The market for a G70, Pa2x pro, Audya for the most part will not buy a 76 key PSR built the same way the 61 key PSR is built.

However, the 76 key PSR would be for those who want a lightweight, easy to use, very mobile keyboard to use at home and easy to transport to little gigs. It would be for those players (whether 61 or 76 key players) who want an all purpose keyboard and are not concerned with build quality and name.

Making the next PSR only 76 keys would not deter the 61 key buyer because their needs would be incorporated in the 76 key version. Really all the 61 key player wants is the keyboard to be compact, light and not heavy.

Also, if Yamaha market the keyboard (as they most likely would), as the greatest sounding PSR, the 61 key players would be compelled to buy the PSR 76.

And if a 61 key PSR must absolutely be built, Yamaha can make one with less features and price it less. So for example, right now Yamaha has the S910 and the S710. Yamaha could make the successor to the S910 76 keys and the successor to the S710 61 keys.



------------------
TTG
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 08:51 AM

Why would the so called intended market (HOME PLAYERS)of TYROS, and PSR , give a damm if it's small, compact & lightweight...it stays in the freeking living room!

Lee S.
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 11:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:

The persons who will buy a Roland G70, Pa2x pro, Audya 76, MS are not the same persons who will buy a lightweight compact Yamaha 76 key arranger.



VERY broad brush there...You may want to qualify, or indeed remove the surety in your statement

I find it best to speak for oneself only in these things

Dennis
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 01:07 PM

The Prelude and GW-8 are Roland's attempt to get the BOTL market. They don't have the capabilities of the E60 or G70. BOTL is dominated by the 61's, no reason for Roland, who are obviously struggling to find a reason to stay in the arranger business at all (and who can blame them, as young players are giving them a wide berth) to try to invent a new market segment. This point has always been about MOTL and TOTL arrangers. Yamaha already make 76 BOTL arrangers. You don't hear me crusading for one of THOSE... If I were, I can guarantee that I would be as critical as you of no 76 GW-8 or Prelude.

Whether Yamaha choose to fill in the gaping gaps in their product lineup to compete against Korg and Ketron, Wersi and Lionstracs (LOL to that last one!) is up to them. But as many PA2Xpro's and Audya's as get sold, for Yamaha to not want a piece of that is a bit strange.

The market DOES exist for a 76 PSR... For Yamaha, it would be players wanting to upscale from the DGX line or YPG's, etc.. Currently, they leave them NO option but to migrate to another manufacturer. I don't know about you, but that hardly seems good sense for any company, especially, as I keep saying, as LITTLE as Yamaha would have to do to make one. Simply place all the S910 electronics in a slightly larger case with a 76 (maybe even a DGX case) and voila! The DGX910...

You trying to tell me that you would have TROUBLE selling one of those, Ian? To existing DGX players?

REALLY...?
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 01:24 PM

Quote:
:Originally posted by to the genesys:

The persons who will buy a Roland G70, Pa2x pro, Audya 76, MS are not the same persons who will buy a lightweight compact Yamaha 76 key arranger.



And there I was, thinking you had actually READ this thread...!

I WOULD buy one, if offered. I want SA sounds, I want Mega guitars, I want an arranger for background gigs, and I don't want to pay Tyros prices!

I could make the Yamaha 'sound' work for me, but I can't make the 61 do the same. Much of my playing is piano based, and 76 is a MINIMUM I am willing to work with. I probably wouldn't take it out for band gigs, but put me in a solo position doing light cocktail and dining music, I can't think of a better axe than a 76 S910 (or DGX910!).

What else in the @$2000 range comes close? All 76's apart from toy DGX's etc. are in the $3500 range. And none of them have SA voices and that Yamaha compressed sound. I already GOT a good expensive ballsy 76. I want a cheap smooth one. 61 players have this option. 76 players WOULD like it, too. As I keep saying, I see absolutely NO correlation between the sound you want, and the number of keys you need. They are utterly independent factors. It's not like Korg offer the PA series in ONLY a 76, or Ketron, now... They obviously see that BOTH sizes sell, despite the exact same engine.

Wish Yamaha saw it that way. All it would take, for all the scary talk or corporate 'restructuring', would be Yamaha allowing the DGX division to have access to the full PSR's technology. Hardly a dramatic change. And, if done from the DGX side, no scavenging of existing sales... Maybe a 76 PSR would scavenge sales away from the DGX's, but a DGX910 wouldn't scavenge ANY sales away from the PSR's, from what I can gather here... And up-selling is every company's dream, isn't it?
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 01:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Whether Yamaha choose to fill in the gaping gaps in their product lineup to compete against Korg and Ketron, Wersi and Lionstracs (LOL to that last one!) is up to them. The market DOES exist for a 76 PSR...


If the market does exist is not really the issue...it's how this market is perceived by Yamaha.

Obviously they don't intend to make one, regardless of whatever reasons we speculate are behind it.

I can only pass on the reason I was told when I asked for a 76'er...KingFrog got the same answer...you talked with a rep who confirmed what Froggy and I were told.

They won't make one, or change their corporate structure to make one( if that is the reason) until something prompts them to make a change.

I doubt if this thread will do it, as we have had discussions very similar to this after the Tyros, Tyros2 and Tyros3, and all that posting failed to produce a 76'er.

We've also discussed a 76-note PSR, although if ever a 76'er gets made, I'm almost certain it would be based on a TOTL.

I still think Spalding had the best suggestion with the poll, but, it would entail a lot of work, and I don't think anyone is THAT interested to go through all that trouble.

With excellent alternatives by Korg, and to a lesser extent, Audya and Wersi, there's no need to go without 76 if one has to have one...a second hand E-60 or G-70 is a good buy.

Why wouldn't you go for a Korg PA2Xpro...there are plenty second hand, and with your skills at style editing, the fills shouldn't be an issue?

I really think Roland might have had luck with a 76 GW-8...certainly no competition in that price bracket..well, maybe Casio, but they don't have the cachet of the Roland name.

Ian

PS...No, I'm not trying to spin the thread in another direction...I just think it would be prudent to look at alternatives.
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 01:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
no reason for Roland, who are obviously struggling to find a reason to stay in the arranger business at all (and who can blame them, as young players are giving them a wide berth) to try to invent a new market segment.


Agree...The silly thing is Roland have the future market staring them in the face...if only they would see it.

Create an keyboard with the quality sampling of the the XS/XF series, but with that unique Roland "flavour" with bucketloads of quality arps and an "arp engine", BUT also include the arranger engine from say the G70 (or an improved version). But do not identify it as such. Maybe call them Arp Link Pads or something

Throw in flash for user samples and there it is...

Dennis
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 01:58 PM

I dunno, guys... The 76 TOTL market is already saturated. Unless you MUST have a Yamaha, your needs are already covered. I simply see a gaping hole in the MOTL 76 area, and see little REAL reason (I'm TIRED of having some Yamaha rep say 'there's no demand' when for a FACT, I know that existing users of 76's have NEVER been asked about it... 'there's no demand from 61 users' is what they are REALLY saying )

Once you put it in terms that don't threaten PSR players cherished beliefs (can't think why else they get so all-fired worked up about it) and talk in terms of a MOTL DGX, perhaps it makes a LOT more sense. After all, if DGX's have a market, why NOT offer them an upward path? Unlike 61's which steadily progress through MOTL and TOTL levels, Yamaha simply say, for 76 users, BOTL and NO FURTHER...

I don't CARE what a PR flack says. I can see the obvious, even if they can't...
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 02:09 PM

' quote::Originally posted by to the genesys:

The persons who will buy a Roland G70, Pa2x pro, Audya 76, MS are not the same persons who will buy a lightweight compact Yamaha 76 key arranger.

And there I was, thinking you had actually READ this thread...!

I WOULD buy one, if offered. I want SA sounds, I want Mega guitars, I want an arranger for background gigs, and I don't want to pay Tyros prices!

I could make the Yamaha 'sound' work for me, but I can't make the 61 do the same. Much of my playing is piano based, and 76 is a MINIMUM I am willing to work with. I probably wouldn't take it out for band gigs, but put me in a solo position doing light cocktail and dining music, I can't think of a better axe than a 76 S910 (or DGX910!).'

And thats just the begining diki. Even amongst the few that said on this forum they wanted a yamaha 76 key arranger you cant agree on what kind of 76 key arranger the market wants !!

Its all very well expressing what you want in an arranger but its only when you talk to other potential buyers that you may discover that your view of the 'gap in the market' you think yamaha should plug may not be as large as you think or the same as the guys that agreed with you in principle !

Thats precisely why you need to conduct a proper survey and get more opinions on the 76 Key arranger market that you think is so profitable.....other than your own.

Even in your small sample of 10 , 8 wanted a 76 Key yamaha arranger and of those 8 ,1 thought the 76 key arranger market might not buy precisely the product you say you would !!

And i would guess that within that remaining group of 7 there would still be quite different visions of the 76 key arranger that they all said they wanted .

I doubt yamaha will make the PSR76 910 or PSrfantom XF (pro) for TTG and a YamahaPA3XZ (pro with speakers) for me etc.

Just which 'gap in the market' is yamaha supposed to fill ?????

You dont have to convince anyone here about what you think the 76 key arranger market needs. Convince yamaha !!!



[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 10-21-2010).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 02:18 PM

Why's it MY job? Either Yamaha want my money or they don't.

But, when I know for a FACT that Yamaha have NEVER polled the very segment they say there's no demand for, simply taking as dogma that everything they do MUST be right is idiotic.

It's like asking non-voters who they want in the Senate... Who CARES what THEY think? They aren't going to decide the issue.

When I receive a poll from Yamaha, and when every other person that plays a 76 gets a poll from Yamaha, THEN, if Yamaha don't make one, I'll know they have done their job. Currently, I know they haven't.

Ball's in their court, not mine.
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 02:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
You dont have to convince anyone here about what you think the market needs. Convince Yamaha !!!



Precisely!!
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 02:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I don't CARE what a PR flack says. I can see the obvious, even if they can't...


If you are satisfied with your view, does that make the 76'er any closer?

We can debate "why" all we want, but that is a waste of time.

This thread offers no hard proof, no numbers...neither did the last discussions.

Give them incentive, and you'll be more likely to get results.

Ian

PS... I believe a 76 note TOTL would be far more likely than a PSR based instrument.
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 02:30 PM

Seems to be a 'waste of time' that you have PLENTY of time for...

I would say that Yamaha could make the point that if you want a larger keyboard TOTL arranger, that's what the Clavinova's are... (even though we both know they are nowhere NEAR a T4). But Yamaha have NO MOTL larger arranger whatsoever. Personally, and especially with your own preference for the MOTL over the TOTL (and these economic times) I would have thought you would have gone for the DGX910.

After all, let's just assume that Yamaha actually made them... Which of them do you think you would have the easier job selling?

Thought so...
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 02:30 PM

you dont get it Diki. It takes too much effort to get your money when there are so many other people willing to give them theirs.

Theres an old African proverb

'If you want a fruit from a tree plentiful tree, only a fool climbs to the highest branch .....'
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 02:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
'If you want a fruit from a tree plentiful tree, only a fool climbs to the highest branch .....'



But if you want your enemy to starve, you pick them ALL...
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 02:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Why's it MY job? Either Yamaha want my money or they don't.



They don't need your money, Diki, really, they don't.

They don't make what you want.

Simply buy elsewhere.

You want a 76 PSR, others want a 76 Tyros...it seems no one is clear on exactly what is wanted.

Korg doesn't make what you want either, yet you aren't campaigning Korg.

Why aren't you pressing Roland to get back in the 76 note market?

They obviously don't need your money either.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 03:03 PM

You carefully avoided my question, Ian... (as always)

Which of the two is the easier sell? Who better than you to decide? And, with your demo-ing skills, you honestly think you COULDN'T sell either one, if made?
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 03:07 PM

Oh, and.... don't WANT a 76 Korg (or I'd have one), don't WANT a 76 Prelude (or I WOULD be posting about it). Why you so determined to evade the issue? Why you always got to assign me points I have NEVER made?

Question too difficult to deal with all by itself?
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 03:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Question too difficult to deal with all by itself?


No question is too difficult, Diki, but you are basing it on a hypothetical situation.

I deal with what is being made now.

Your question is in the area of vaporware...that's not my department.

As far as avoiding an issue...you keep avoiding Spalding's advice on doing a survey...that's the only way you'll have any real evidence.

So far, you have nothing but hypotheses and wild guesses, but you are consistent...you don't ever let the facts get in the way of your imagination.


Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 03:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
You dont have to convince anyone here about what you think the 76 key arranger market needs. Convince yamaha !!!



Right on the money, Spalding...but we are dealing with armchair marketers, and they'd rather talk than actually do something.

Dreamers, and not much else, I'm afraid.

Ian
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 03:57 PM

' But if you want your enemy to starve, you pick them ALL.'

Well thats one strategy Diki and if it works for you good luck with that .

A less labour intensive and confrontational way is to let the fools struggle and fight and expend themselves over the slim sun shriveled pickings at the top of the tree, Whilst they compete with each other and shake the tree , gather what falls to the ground , watch the weaker fools fall away as they reach too high, stretch themselves too far, take greater risks than the reward merits ....then pick the fruit they loosened on their way up and on their way down

But i think your method of going after everything regardless of the merrit could work too ......ahhh who am i trying to kid :-)
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 04:05 PM

In case you missed it:
“The persons who will buy a Roland G70, Pa2x pro, Audya 76, MS are not the same persons who will buy a lightweight compact Yamaha 76 key arranger.
The Yamaha arranger market is primarily the home player. The other brands are targeting the semipro and pro market. And for the semipro and pro market looks and build quality are very important.
Why do you think the G70, PA2x pro, Audya 76 and MS are constructed the way they are?
So if Yamaha were to add a 76 key T4 they would have to build it like the Roland’s and Korgs and like Yamaha said, it would not be worth it for them to do that. It is just too small of a market for them to venture into.”

When Roland went from the G1000 to the G70 and when Korg went from the PA1x to the PA2x notice they did not change the build quality. Do they know something that we don’t know?

BTW There will be persons who have a G70 or PA2x pro but still buy the PSR S with 76 keys, because it will be a back up keyboards. It will be their “quickie” keyboard.

Diki and I both realize that a TOTL 76 key Yamaha arranger would probably not do well at this time. It is more the MOTL segment where Yamaha could improve. And one of the reasons for this is price.


------------------
TTG
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 04:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
[B]The Yamaha arranger market is primarily the home player. /B]


Thank you for the laugh .....
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 04:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
In case you missed it:
“The persons who will buy a Roland G70, Pa2x pro, Audya 76, MS are not the same persons who will buy a lightweight compact Yamaha 76 key arranger.



AGAIN, you missed it, yes they are and can be....

Speak for yourself when making these statements. You have NO idea what other people here think at all...
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 07:13 PM

Tell you what.... prove me WRONG...! What? Don't feel like organizing a huge pan-internet effort to back up what SEEMS obvious to you?

Me neither..!

Thanks for ignoring my questions again, Ian. Didn't think you had an honest answer to it, either. You are happy to talk about theoretical 76 Preludes, but incapable of applying the same ability to Yamaha. I'm sorry top hear about your lack of imagination. It must be quite a handicap.
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 07:26 PM

1,2,cha,cha,cha
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 07:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Tell you what.... prove me WRONG...! What? Don't feel like organizing a huge pan-internet effort to back up what SEEMS obvious to you?

Me neither..!

I'm sorry top hear about your lack of imagination. It must be quite a handicap.


Handicap? No, I don't have any handicaps...only you...you're a handicap.

But I can deal with you.

Now, get off your butt do a survey, and stop whining about what you can't get.

Acting like a spoiled little boy isn't getting you anywhere, and it's re-Diki-ulous how sooky you get just because you reach a stalemate.

Come on, get yourself out of that rut...that's what comes from playing that old dinosaur.

Here Dino...c'mon boy...let's lose some weight...come on...here boy...let's do a survey...let's listen to Uncle Spalding...

Your buddy,

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 07:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
AGAIN, you missed it, yes they are and can be....

Speak for yourself when making these statements. You have NO idea what other people here think at all...



Nope. you still did not get the full meaning of that statement. Read the statement in context and if you are good you will get it.
Have you not notice hwo the Roland and Korg players a lot of the time talk about the key feel and how strong the G70 and PA 2x pro feels? And, it is not that those users would not buy a PSR 76 but they would use it as their secondary keyboard. Just like what Diki said he would do. So you see its not just about quoting a line but the thought.

------------------
TTG

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 10-21-2010).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 08:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Thank you for the laugh .....



You did not know that? I don't see why you of all persons would find that funny.

------------------
TTG
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 08:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
1,2,cha,cha,cha


3, 4, cha, cha, cha.

------------------
TTG
Posted by: Nick G

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 08:30 PM

Why is it always Donny that starts threads that reach 200+ posts? lol
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 08:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Thanks for ignoring my questions again, Ian. Didn't think you had an honest answer to it, either. .


Seriously, my friend, there is no answer...I really have no idea how a 76 PSR would sell.

I do know the 88 DGX outsells the 76 by a long way.

Certainly a 76 S910 would be more expensive than the 61, and I really can't see it doing well alongside it.

You are assuming there is a market for a 76 note MOTL arranger, but without any numbers or survey figures to back it up, it is still a guess, and a dream.

Perhaps you'd like to see your idea a reality, but in the real world of marketing and profit, there are just some things that don't show enough promise to get any further than the drawing board.

Besides that, you have stated many, many times that you hate the PSR action...it would still be the same action, only more keys.

My idea of a 76 weighted TOTL or MOTL arranger isn't any more feasible...that's what I'd want, but there's little chance of that happening.

Ian

PS...I hope you realize my last post was in jest and trying to lighten up a very tiring and unproductive thread. Give Dino a little pat on the panel for me, will ya?

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-21-2010).]
Posted by: Nick G

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 08:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Give Dino a little pat on the panel for me, will ya?

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-21-2010).]


haha I am sure Fran does this everyday to his one . bah I do the same to my Motif!
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 08:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Nope. you still did not get the full meaning of that statement. Read the statement in context and if you are good you will get it.
Have you not notice hwo the Roland and Korg players a lot of the time talk about the key feel and how strong the G70 and PA 2x pro feels? And, it is not that those users would not buy a PSR 76 but they would use it as their secondary keyboard. Just like what Diki said he would do. So you see its not just about quoting a line but the thought.



m8, I currently own a G70, have owned a MS, a Pa1xpro and a Pa2xPro, so I am sorta qualified to make the comments I did.

And IF you are good you will also read that Diki WOULD buy a 76 note PSR!!!!

That statement of yours, whether in the context you claim, or not is STILL making an assumption about everybody on this forum.

Please, you are dealing with an ex-journo, don't play semantics with me

The rest of your post was fine, as far as that goes. Which is why I took issue ONLY with that line.

Whatever you said after it is beside the point.
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 09:00 PM

And apart from which you also CHANGED your post too...by adding this bit

:...And, it is not that those users would not buy a PSR 76 but they would use it as their secondary keyboard."

You did NOT say that in the original post
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 09:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
OK so apparently some persons seem to be getting confused with intended markets for keyboards.


The persons who will buy a Roland G70, Pa2x pro, Audya 76, MS are not the same persons who will buy a lightweight compact Yamaha 76 key arranger.

The Yamaha arranger market is primarily the home player. The other brands are targeting the semipro and pro market. And for the semipro and pro market looks and build quality are very important.

Why do you think the G70, PA2x pro, Audya 76 and MS are constructed the way they are?
So if Yamaha were to add a 76 key T4 they would have to build it like the Roland’s and Korgs and like Yamaha said, it would not be worth it for them to do that. It is just too small of a market for them to venture into.

Even adding a 76 key PSR to a 61 key production will not do well for Yamaha. Why? The persons who will buy the 61 key PSR will still buy the 61 key PSR. They may get a few person to buy the 76 key PSR but it would not be enough for Yamaha to come out ahead. The market for a G70, Pa2x pro, Audya for the most part will not buy a 76 key PSR built the same way the 61 key PSR is built.

However, the 76 key PSR would be for those who want a lightweight, easy to use, very mobile keyboard to use at home and easy to transport to little gigs. It would be for those players (whether 61 or 76 key players) who want an all purpose keyboard and are not concerned with build quality and name.

Making the next PSR only 76 keys would not deter the 61 key buyer because their needs would be incorporated in the 76 key version. Really all the 61 key player wants is the keyboard to be compact, light and not heavy.

Also, if Yamaha market the keyboard (as they most likely would), as the greatest sounding PSR, the 61 key players would be compelled to buy the PSR 76.

And if a 61 key PSR must absolutely be built, Yamaha can make one with less features and price it less. So for example, right now Yamaha has the S910 and the S710. Yamaha could make the successor to the S910 76 keys and the successor to the S710 61 keys.





Here is the original full post
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 09:30 PM

yay!!!! 7 Pages so far...
Posted by: Tony Hughes

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 09:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
m8, I currently own a G70, have owned a MS, a Pa1xpro and a Pa2xPro, so I am sorta qualified to make the comments I did.

And IF you are good you will also read that Diki WOULD buy a 76 note PSR!!!!

That statement of yours, whether in the context you claim, or not is STILL making an assumption about everybody on this forum.

Please, you are dealing with an ex-journo, don't play semantics with me

The rest of your post was fine, as far as that goes. Which is why I took issue ONLY with that line.

Whatever you said after it is beside the point.



Miden,

You did own a MS what happened?
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 09:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
yay!!!! 7 Pages so far...


You've been here a while Donny , whats your recollection of the longest?

Dennis
Posted by: Tony Hughes

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 09:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
OK so apparently some persons seem to be getting confused with intended markets for keyboards.


The persons who will buy a Roland G70, Pa2x pro, Audya 76, MS are not the same persons who will buy a lightweight compact Yamaha 76 key arranger.

The Yamaha arranger market is primarily the home player. The other brands are targeting the semipro and pro market. And for the semipro and pro market looks and build quality are very important.

Why do you think the G70, PA2x pro, Audya 76 and MS are constructed the way they are?
So if Yamaha were to add a 76 key T4 they would have to build it like the Roland’s and Korgs and like Yamaha said, it would not be worth it for them to do that. It is just too small of a market for them to venture into.

Even adding a 76 key PSR to a 61 key production will not do well for Yamaha. Why? The persons who will buy the 61 key PSR will still buy the 61 key PSR. They may get a few person to buy the 76 key PSR but it would not be enough for Yamaha to come out ahead. The market for a G70, Pa2x pro, Audya for the most part will not buy a 76 key PSR built the same way the 61 key PSR is built.

However, the 76 key PSR would be for those who want a lightweight, easy to use, very mobile keyboard to use at home and easy to transport to little gigs. It would be for those players (whether 61 or 76 key players) who want an all purpose keyboard and are not concerned with build quality and name.

Making the next PSR only 76 keys would not deter the 61 key buyer because their needs would be incorporated in the 76 key version. Really all the 61 key player wants is the keyboard to be compact, light and not heavy.

Also, if Yamaha market the keyboard (as they most likely would), as the greatest sounding PSR, the 61 key players would be compelled to buy the PSR 76.

And if a 61 key PSR must absolutely be built, Yamaha can make one with less features and price it less. So for example, right now Yamaha has the S910 and the S710. Yamaha could make the successor to the S910 76 keys and the successor to the S710 61 keys.





Do you know all this to be completely true or is this just your hypothesis or have you something to do with the Yamaha Company internally. Then pray tell me how a young dog knows how to cock its leg up so it doesn’t p…s on it, that’s why people buy 76 note KBs, I did. It's as simple as that!
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 10:18 PM

no one knows any of it to be completely true Tony. And the people who could benefit the most from finding out some hard facts by doing some genuine opinion based research cant be bothered to do it. I suspect because they are afraid of what that research might show. And thats without risking a penny of their own money.


But the same people want yamaha to do a multimillion pound experiment just on their say so.

And they think yamaha is stubborn because they wont do it.....

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 10-21-2010).]
Posted by: Tony Hughes

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/21/10 10:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
no one knows any of it to be completely true Tony. And the people who could benefit the most from finding out some hard facts by doing some genuine opinion based research cant be bothered to do it. I suspect because they are afraid of what that research might show. And thats without risking a penny of their own money.


But the same people want yamaha to do a multimillion pound experiment just on their say so.

And they think yamaha is stubborn because they wont do it.....

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 10-21-2010).]


I think you are right Spalding
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 02:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
no one knows any of it to be completely true Tony. And the people who could benefit the most from finding out some hard facts by doing some genuine opinion based research cant be bothered to do it. I suspect because they are afraid of what that research might show. And thats without risking a penny of their own money.


But the same people want yamaha to do a multimillion pound experiment just on their say so.

And they think yamaha is stubborn because they wont do it.....



Yep, that sums the whole thing up quite tidily, Spalding.

Well said.

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 03:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
Here is the original full post


Thank You for reposting.
Perhaps not the best written post.
The comment at the beginning of the post was referring to the making of a T4 with 76 keys.

My later comment: “However, the 76 key PSR would be for those who want a lightweight, easy to use, very mobile keyboard to use at home and easy to transport to little gigs. It would be for those players (whether 61 or 76 key players) who want an all purpose keyboard and are not concerned with build quality and name.” I had to clarify as the “quickie” keyboard for both 61 and 76 players.


But it is all good M8.


BTW Diki did say he would buy a PSR 76.
------------------
TTG

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 10-22-2010).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 03:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Hughes:
Do you know all this to be completely true or is this just your hypothesis or have you something to do with the Yamaha Company internally. Then pray tell me how a young dog knows how to cock its leg up so it doesn’t p…s on it, that’s why people buy 76 note KBs, I did. It's as simple as that!


no one knows any of it to be completely true.
It is no more speculation than what some persons are engaging in by suggesting customers should do their own survey the confirm a well known fact and thinking Yamaha will act on such a survey.




------------------
TTG
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 07:03 AM

Multimillion pound experiment !!

What are you guys drinking? (I'll have some with you)

All they need to do is:
1) New case design/and new mold (plastic injection molding) Maybe only for the keybed area.
2) 76 key keyboard instead of a 61 (Cost + $50 max per keyboard) Just look ar Fatar prices)
3) Updated keybed decoder
4) Upated keymap programming.

The most expensive part of all this is the new mold(s) they need.

Yamaha already does Motif in 61, 76, 88 so they are good at having multiple options on keybed sizes...

Piece of cake.

One a different note...Yesterday I checked out the newest Yamaha Clavinova (CVP-500PM )...very impressive!
If it had full T4 capabilities...I might bite!

Lee S.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 07:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
One a different note...Yesterday I checked out the newest Yamaha Clavinova (CVP-500PM )...very impressive!
If it had full T4 capabilities...I might bite!

Lee S.


The Clavinova with T4 capabilities will be the CVP-6** series...the 5 series is last year's model, and based on the Tyros3.

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 07:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
Multimillion pound experiment !!



Companies will stop making certain types of switches, or eliminate a control, just to save a few dollars/unit.

A new instrument...another assembly line...more workers/robots...that's an expense you can't easily measure.

Making a new instrument that doesn't sell is a major cost to a company.

You can assume this type product will sell, but you are still guessing.

Why doesn't Korg/Ketron make a MOTL 76'er if this market is so lucrative? Surely you aren't the only one to discover this, if it is so obvious?

Companies need proof, not guesses.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-22-2010).]
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 08:03 AM

This whole thread only confirms even more that YAMAHA has the BEST sound in any arranger on the market today.

Thank you
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 10:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
I do know the 88 DGX outsells the 76 by a long way.


And yet, Yamaha continue to make it... Doesn't that disprove your theory that the 76 MUST sell a whole lot JUST to make Yamaha interested in making it?

Of course it doesn't... Why should FACTS get in the way of a perfectly good argument?

Now, back to the number of angels dancing on that pinhead (no, not you, Ian!)
Posted by: kbrkr

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 10:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
This whole thread only confirms even more that YAMAHA has the BEST sound in any arranger on the market today.

Thank you


How do you make that assumption from a thread about 76 keys.
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 10:26 AM

Ian,
In all due respect..these type of units are selling AS WE SPEAK.

There is no experiment.

Thank's for the info on the Clav...It may be in my cards. But, only if it has ALL the features of the arragner.
Lee S.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
And yet, Yamaha continue to make it... Doesn't that disprove your theory that the 76 MUST sell a whole lot JUST to make Yamaha interested in making it?

Of course it doesn't... Why should FACTS get in the way of a perfectly good argument?

Now, back to the number of angels dancing on that pinhead (no, not you, Ian!)


Yes, they do Diki...the DGX is another division, the "piano based" arranger...they also make unweighted 88's, and so on...a very versatile company, is Yamaha, and very successful.

In the pure Arranger division...61 rules.

They haven't been able to make any angels dance on the head of a pin...perhaps you could show them?

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
Ian,
In all due respect..these type of units are selling AS WE SPEAK.

There is no experiment.



Korg/Ketron make a MOTL 76'er?

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 10:33 AM

Every new product a company brings out is a gamble. The NP80v is a gamble. Yet Yamaha made it, to test the waters. The Tyros1 was a gamble. The original PSR was a gamble. A gamble that paid off.

I have yet to find an explanation for, if Yamaha make 76's in thye DGX line, the YPG line, and the NP line, and apparently have no trouble making them (despite them selling less than their 88 or 61 brethren), why Yamaha think that, as soon as these players want a BETTER accompaniment section, they also want fewer keys...

Look, guys, I get it. As long as you keep saying to yourselves that EVERYTHING Yamaha ever does is right, and of course, no argument for a product they don't make is going to make any sense. The trouble with infallibility, though, is once it is GONE... it is GONE! It's kinda like virginity... You never get it back, no matter HOW virtuous you are from that point on!

So, tell me again about the PSR9000pro...

OK, having got that infallibility out of the way, what's the basis for proving that something that Yamaha don't make COULDN'T be a success?

Thought so.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kbrkr:
How do you make that assumption from a thread about 76 keys.


I think Donny means the kerfuffle for a 76 MOTL/TOTL arranger from Yamaha, from Roland and Korg fanboys no less, is indicative of the popularity of the Yamaha sound/styles/features.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 10:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Yes, they do Diki...the DGX is another division, the "piano based" arranger...they also make unweighted 88's, and so on...a very versatile company, is Yamaha, and very successful.

In the pure Arranger division...61 rules.

They haven't been able to make any angels dance on the head of a pin...perhaps you could show them?

Ian


By your reasoning, EVERY 76 arranger, my G70, the PA2Xpro, the Audya76, in fact, every single arranger with more than 61 keys is a 'piano based arranger'. Because the size of the keybed is the ONLY thing that distinguishes them from a 61. Other than, in Yamaha's case, cobbling on a VERY inferior arranger!

Maybe that's what makes Yamaha so successful... making arrangers that SUCK for everyone but 61 players!
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 10:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Every new product a company brings out is a gamble. The NP80v is a gamble. Yet Yamaha made it, to test the waters. I have yet to find an explanation for, if Yamaha make 76's in thye DGX line, the YPG line, and the NP line, and apparently have no trouble making them (despite them selling less than their 88 or 61 brethren), why Yamaha think that, as soon as these players want a BETTER accompaniment section, they also want fewer keys...



They are competing with Casio on this level...product to product...the instruments are created to correspond to the competition's product.

Same with DGX.

Roland and Korg (or Ketron) make no products in this segment, which is a highly lucrative market.

Certainly no company is infallible...but, some do learn, and profit, from their mistakes.

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 11:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
By your reasoning, EVERY 76 arranger, my G70, the PA2Xpro, the Audya76, in fact, every single arranger with more than 61 keys is a 'piano based arranger'. Maybe that's what makes Yamaha so successful... making arrangers that SUCK for everyone but 61 players!


By Yamaha's reasoning...not mine. They call the DGX/YPG/NP that to distinguish them from the PSR.

The 76-note piano based arrangers only suck for players like you, who expect a pro keyboard. They do perfectly well for their intended purpose, which is to compete with Casio's instruments in that price segment.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 11:10 AM

If you run away from a mistake, you haven't learned from it. Making a GOOD 76 would have been learning from it. Abandoning a market that Yamaha's vaunted 'market research' MUST have proved was there (otherwise, why make the 9000pro in the first place?) because your first effort failed (for no reason to do with the number of keys) isn't LEARNING.

It's QUITTING.

Maybe it's an old Japanese proverb? "If at first you don't succeed, QUIT!"
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
By Yamaha's reasoning...not mine. They call the DGX/YPG/NP that to distinguish them from the PSR.

The 76-note piano based arrangers only suck for players like you, who expect a pro keyboard. They do perfectly well for their intended purpose, which is to compete with Casio's instruments in that price segment.

Ian



Whoa, whoa, whooooaaaa......!

Aren't you the one telling us there are NO 'pro' arrangers? That they are ALL 'home keyboards'...? When losing an argument, ALWAYS contradict yourself...!

BTW, my parents called me Richard, to distinguish me from all the Ian's... Doesn't stop us from both being human (barely!). If three letters on a panel graphic is all it takes to disguise an arranger from you Ian, this doesn't speak well for your awareness. You SURE those meds aren't affecting you?
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 11:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
Thank's for the info on the Clav...It may be in my cards. But, only if it has ALL the features of the arragner.
Lee S.


The CVP is a digital piano first, and the action is designed to give you the best possible piano feel.

The current CVP, offers a few different features than a Tyros...although their sound engine is basically the same.

Main difference...the Tyros gives you three layers in the right hand...the CVP has two.

It also has a bank of piano based styles, which are not on the Tyros, and a few new Freeplay styles as well.

Also, no pitch/mod wheels...these are controlled by pedals, to keep the hands free for piano playing.

It's a slightly different approach than the Tyros, but, it's been every bit as successful.

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Whoa, whoa, whooooaaaa......!

BTW, my parents called me Richard, to distinguish me from all the Ian's...


So if your father was named Richard...he'd be called, "Big Diki"...and you would be called..."Little Diki."

Either way, you're still a "Diki".

How nice.

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 11:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Maybe it's an old Japanese proverb? "If at first you don't succeed, QUIT!"


I can see it isn't a proverb you follow...

But keep going, Sunshine...it's nice to have you support Yamaha.

Ian
Posted by: mr9000

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 12:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
So if your father was named Richard...he'd be called, "Big Diki"...and you would be called..."Little Diki."

Either way, you're still a "--".
How nice.
Ian


I ain't no K-9,but a strong odour of ass is brilliantly shining forth in the air this day. What are we.. sitting in wooden desks with slivers up our tails in Gr4 all over again, such thoughtlessness from 76keys to this low levelled speeched scum is like the a unnamed dude bashing someones furniture in uploaded video's. For being tied to yam, me thinks i have seen the real displayed villian of 'rediculous' I-anne-ica-ca.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mr9000:
I ain't no K-9,but a strong odour of ass is brilliantly shining forth in the air this day.


Judging from the nature of your recent posts, here and on other threads, I'd say it's emanating from your PC keyboard.

Ian
Posted by: mr9000

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 01:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Judging from the blah blah blah of your recent blah blah blah..
Ian

In the corner or play nice mc'ill, i know a bully when i see one.
Posted by: mr9000

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 01:21 PM

ok resume:
Even though So many people
HATE THE DRUMS & constantly complain about having the "LIVE IN YOUR FACE" sound.......? So you'll have 76 keys and lousy drums to your ears?...
I dont get it? At this rate the Audya 76 is your only choice for that Live Sounding Drums.....or am I missing something here?
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 01:34 PM

Ian,
Why would they leave off the other RH sound and the 2 wheels, OH and the aftertouch?
So, ow many volume type pedals can I hook to the Clav? 3 I hope.

Lee
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 01:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
Multimillion pound experiment !!

What are you guys drinking? (I'll have some with you)

All they need to do is:
1) New case design/and new mold (plastic injection molding) Maybe only for the keybed area.
2) 76 key keyboard instead of a 61 (Cost + $50 max per keyboard) Just look ar Fatar prices)
3) Updated keybed decoder
4) Upated keymap programming.

The most expensive part of all this is the new mold(s) they need.

Yamaha already does Motif in 61, 76, 88 so they are good at having multiple options on keybed sizes...

Piece of cake.

One a different note...Yesterday I checked out the newest Yamaha Clavinova (CVP-500PM )...very impressive!
If it had full T4 capabilities...I might bite!

Lee S.


Lee lets break this down a bit

Would you be using the casing for the motif 7 to fit the new psr/tyros 76 note ? Would that be the Motif XS7 casing or the Motif XF7 casing or would actually design one that actually fit the tyros/psr layout of the keyboard ??

That means you start back at the begining. You dont just stretch the plastic injection mould pattern , you create a new one !!

That means when it comes to making and assembling tyhe components you have to reprogramm the assmbly line .

And if i make just just 1500 new Yamaha psr/tyros 76 at the same price as a tyros 61 $3500 then thats potentially $5250000 in revnue that i might never actually realise .

What if they only sell 200 ?

I dont know if you have looked carefully into what it would take to make a new model tyros/psr76 key instrument .

reconfiguring a flexible manufacturing machine for the production line , planning distribution and stock control and, quality control warehousing costs etc .

Do you realise the cost per day to a business if production line has to be retooled and reconfigured for a new model ?

Then you have to persuade retail outlets to carry your stock and put them on the floor for people to see. That was the down fall of roland arrangers . Nobody wanted to stock a product they could not sell.

Its ok for you to be confident that yamaha wouild sell the units that their capital is tied up in . Its not your money !!!

You make it sound like all yamaha have to do is flip a switch and key presto out pops the dream 76 arranger keyboard.

I wish it were that simple Lee.

And by the way have you decided amongst yourselves (from Dikis sample ) what size and weight and key feel this market wants and needs in the 76 Key Tyros/ PSR thingy ?

Should it be geared towards the pro, semi pro or home user, piano player or does any of this matter at all ??????

Last time i checked two out of the 8 people from Dikis extensive sample who expressed a preference for a 76 Key arranger could not quite agree whether it shouild be a ToTL or MOTL product . What about you Lee or the other 5 definate (if you can agree on the specs) buyers ?

What keyboard should yamaha make for you ????? synth action, semi weighted, weighted, ?????

What about the price range $2000-3000,$3000-4000 ? What impact might the price have on the product sales ? What impact might the price have on the 61 key sister sales ?

You can see how this might become a multimillion dollar experiment cant you ?

I guess some kind of detailed survey might be useful afterall......
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 02:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mr9000:
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
[b] Judging from the blah blah blah of your recent blah blah blah..
Ian

In the corner or play nice mc'ill, i know a bully when i see one.

[/B]


Misquoting someone is not playing nice.

You see a bully everytime you look in the mirror...but, you're not much of threat...only to yourself.

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 02:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mr9000:
ok resume:
At this rate the Audya 76 is your only choice for that Live Sounding Drums.....or am I missing something here?


You're not missing anything...the Audya 76 is your only choice.

Ian
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 04:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
Lee lets break this down a bit

Would you be using the casing for the motif 7 to fit the new psr/tyros 76 note ? Would that be the Motif XS7 casing or the Motif XF7 casing or would actually design one that actually fit the tyros/psr layout of the keyboard ??

That means you start back at the begining. You dont just stretch the plastic injection mould pattern , you create a new one !!

That means when it comes to making and assembling tyhe components you have to reprogramm the assmbly line .

And if i make just just 1500 new Yamaha psr/tyros 76 at the same price as a tyros 61 $3500 then thats potentially $5250000 in revnue that i might never actually realise .

What if they only sell 200 ?

I dont know if you have looked carefully into what it would take to make a new model tyros/psr76 key instrument .

reconfiguring a flexible manufacturing machine for the production line , planning distribution and stock control and, quality control warehousing costs etc .

Do you realise the cost per day to a business if production line has to be retooled and reconfigured for a new model ?

Then you have to persuade retail outlets to carry your stock and put them on the floor for people to see. That was the down fall of roland arrangers . Nobody wanted to stock a product they could not sell.

Its ok for you to be confident that yamaha wouild sell the units that their capital is tied up in . Its not your money !!!

You make it sound like all yamaha have to do is flip a switch and key presto out pops the dream 76 arranger keyboard.

I wish it were that simple Lee.

And by the way have you decided amongst yourselves (from Dikis sample ) what size and weight and key feel this market wants and needs in the 76 Key Tyros/ PSR thingy ?

Should it be geared towards the pro, semi pro or home user, piano player or does any of this matter at all ??????

Last time i checked two out of the 8 people from Dikis extensive sample who expressed a preference for a 76 Key arranger could not quite agree whether it shouild be a ToTL or MOTL product . What about you Lee or the other 5 definate (if you can agree on the specs) buyers ?

What keyboard should yamaha make for you ????? synth action, semi weighted, weighted, ?????

What about the price range $2000-3000,$3000-4000 ? What impact might the price have on the product sales ? What impact might the price have on the 61 key sister sales ?

You can see how this might become a multimillion dollar experiment cant you ?

I guess some kind of detailed survey might be useful afterall......



excactly and diki and others probably would spend 3k,4k for anything no matter how many keys it had.....SZ posters is a mere speck of sand in Yamaha's R&D for the future...
oh how I wish we could delete posts again like days of old ......this is a waste of bandwidth..I'm sorry I started this thread..



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-22-2010).]
Posted by: Jerry T

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 05:07 PM

To answer your initial - No.
Ciao
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 06:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
You can see how this might become a multimillion dollar experiment cant you ?

I guess some kind of detailed survey might be useful afterall......



Another excellent post, Spalding, and a fine job of bringing reality back to this thread.

Ian
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/22/10 06:18 PM

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/442960/#484053
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/23/10 04:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Another excellent post, Spalding, and a fine job of bringing reality back to this thread.

Ian


You mean excellent speculation.

------------------
TTG
Posted by: Tony Hughes

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/23/10 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
m8, I currently own a G70, have owned a MS, a Pa1xpro and a Pa2xPro, so I am sorta qualified to make the comments I did.

And IF you are good you will also read that Diki WOULD buy a 76 note PSR!!!!

That statement of yours, whether in the context you claim, or not is STILL making an assumption about everybody on this forum.

Please, you are dealing with an ex-journo, don't play semantics with me

The rest of your post was fine, as far as that goes. Which is why I took issue ONLY with that line.

Whatever you said after it is beside the point.



Miden,

Have I read this right you said you had a MS I thought you were over the moon with it. I was going to buy one maybe not now.
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/23/10 12:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Hughes:
Miden,

Have I read this right you said you had a MS I thought you were over the moon with it. I was going to buy one maybe not now.


Tony that is the second time you have attempted to draw a response. Sorry but I don't think there will be one forthcoming.
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/23/10 12:13 PM

Once again, I'll repeat it (for those whose memories don't extend much past the last page or so of this thread):

Of the ten 76 players who DID respond to the question (or at least to a more broad question of whether they would buy a 76 Yamaha PSR or Tyros), eight of the ten WOULD. And that is DESPITE having some previously reported reservations about the keybed or sound.

You see, just like whatever you are currently playing, we are ALL prepared to accept certain limitations to get the arranger we want. You think I'm HAPPY the G70 is so heavy? But I play it nonetheless! You think I'll be HAPPY the keybed on the 76 S910 (or DGX or whatever Yamaha decide to CALL it!)? Of course not. But I'll still play it! And as to the sound, well, as I said, for background restaurant type gigs, it's actually maybe a better fit than the punchy Roland one I have now. Plus, it's a more 'pure' arranger than the G70, and that's what I'll be solely using it for.

So, you see, just because we can find fault with an arranger doesn't necessarily rule out actually using it! At least I am honest enough to admit that there are things i WOULD like better on what I currently use, and should I ever get a 76 PSR, I would STILL be honest enough to say that the keybed COULD be better (unlike some here). But that won't rule out me using it.

Every one of you, if you drop your defensive dogma, can probably find SOMETHING you'd prefer improved on your own arranger. But you still play it. Allow us the same right, eh?
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/23/10 12:22 PM



Keep beating...at least the flies get a workout.

Companies need proof, not guesses.

You want...you prove.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-23-2010).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/23/10 01:26 PM

Keep baiting... it's all you are good for!

But this thread is headed for epic status if you think this tactic is likely to end in some kind of concession from me.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/23/10 02:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Keep baiting... it's all you are good for!

But this thread is headed for epic status if you think this tactic is likely to end in some kind of concession from me.


Hey, I'm not baiting at all...I'm just responding with the facts...you know, the things you're overlooking.

I'm all for them making a 76'er, but, the reality is, they must have more proof than a few people on this site saying they'd buy a 76'er.

I'd like to buy another old Caddy, but does that mean I'll actually do it.

Talk is cheap...yes, you say you'd buy a 76 PSR, but that's only what you'd like to buy...sometimes, the reality is that other things just might be more important...you certainly do not need a 76 PSR...you just want one if the conditions are right.

Probably the same for most of the others.

No company would start production on a new model based on the amount of evidence shown here on SZ.

Ian




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-23-2010).]
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/23/10 06:31 PM

enough Nigel please get the lock

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-23-2010).]
Posted by: trident

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/23/10 07:09 PM

Wait till it gets on the 300 post mark.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/23/10 07:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by trident:
Wait till it gets on the 300 post mark.


Yeah, why not!

Ian
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/23/10 07:31 PM

Spalding,
I am aware of all that. I worked for IBM for 30 years and some of that time was manufacturing engineer at a plant.

All good points, however...you miss the original point. It is profitable, or Korg, Ketron ect. would not be currently doing it.
They would just make a 61.

How did we get on Moti cases? You would simply start with the Tyros (or PSR910) case design, tweek it for the new keybed and make a new mold. Molds are expensive...but we are not talking a multimillion $$ experiment.

Do you and others think a 76 key Tyros would not compete well with the other 76 key arrangers?? Maybe that's the real problem?

If that is the case...then Yamaha should take a good look at the competitions capablilities.

How many 76 key Motifs do you think Yamaha sells as compared to the 61's and 88's??
Not as many for sure...but they MAKE them...OK, do you think they would make them if they lost money? No.

They had to make that mold didn't they?

I have not looked at the detailed design, but it may only be a mold change in the kebed bezel area? That would be very easy to do. The oveall case may be long enough already.

This is not rocket science for a company with Yamahas resourses.

Lee S.
Posted by: Tony Hughes

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/23/10 11:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
Tony that is the second time you have attempted to draw a response. Sorry but I don't think there will be one forthcoming.


Thanks Dennis,

I have my answer wrapped up in your silence, that will do for me I won't ask again. You have told me what I expected, you have saved me from a fate worse than Auyda.
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 12:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Hughes:
Thanks Dennis,

I have my answer wrapped up in your silence, that will do for me I won't ask again. You have told me what I expected, you have saved me from a fate worse than Auyda.



You are welcome Tony

But you ARE taking all the wrong inferences from my reluctance to give you an answer.

But it's your choice, and your money so good luck. You just MAY be missing out!!

Dennis
Posted by: Tony Hughes

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:

You are welcome Tony

But you ARE taking all the wrong inferences from my reluctance to give you an answer.

But it's your choice, and your money so good luck. You just MAY be missing out!!

Dennis



Dennis,

Lets just leave it that "I'm out"
Secondhand G70 for me and a truss ( Surgical Support).
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 12:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
Spalding,
I am aware of all that. I worked for IBM for 30 years and some of that time was manufacturing engineer at a plant.

All good points, however...you miss the original point. It is profitable, or Korg, Ketron ect. would not be currently doing it.
They would just make a 61.

How did we get on Moti cases? You would simply start with the Tyros (or PSR910) case design, tweek it for the new keybed and make a new mold. Molds are expensive...but we are not talking a multimillion $$ experiment.

Do you and others think a 76 key Tyros would not compete well with the other 76 key arrangers?? Maybe that's the real problem?

If that is the case...then Yamaha should take a good look at the competitions capablilities.

How many 76 key Motifs do you think Yamaha sells as compared to the 61's and 88's??
Not as many for sure...but they MAKE them...OK, do you think they would make them if they lost money? No.

They had to make that mold didn't they?

I have not looked at the detailed design, but it may only be a mold change in the kebed bezel area? That would be very easy to do. The oveall case may be long enough already.

This is not rocket science for a company with Yamahas resourses.

Lee S.


No lee i havent. It maybe a profitable market for 2 or 3 companies all fishing in a relatively small pond. But the more companies in that small market, the less profitable that market will appear RELATIVE to other more lucrative markets.

I didnt say there was no profit in it. I am saying that the effort to squeeze out that profit relative to other markets is greater.

For example ,like the old folks who buy a tyros remake each 2 or 3 years with brand new dollars ($4000 a shot) because it has choir voices on it and doo wop samples .

Trying to break into and make a profit from an already marginal area is a high risk business strategy compared to turning over the tyros obver and over again, or marginally improving the XS with the XF.

A
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 05:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
No lee i havent. It maybe a profitable market for 2 or 3 companies all fishing in a relatively small pond. But the more companies in that small market, the less profitable that market will appear RELATIVE to other more lucrative markets.

I didnt say there was no profit in it. I am saying that the effort to squeeze out that profit relative to other markets is greater.

For example ,like the old folks who buy a tyros remake each 2 or 3 years with brand new dollars ($4000 a shot) because it has choir voices on it and doo wop samples .

Trying to break into and make a profit from an already marginal area is a high risk business strategy compared to turning over the tyros obver and over again, or marginally improving the XS with the XF.

A



Exactly.

One way that a company could “break in” to a market is making that "break in" a secondary function.

It would be fool hearted for Yamaha to make a TOTL 76 well built synth/workstation arranger that weighs 40LBS, market it as such and say they are competing with the Korg and Roland 76 key arrangers.

Again, the fact that the arranger is 76 keys can not be the selling and marketing point.


Let me give you an example of how this concept works. In Europe, arrangers are somewhat use professionally. Most persons who use arrangers professionally in Europe use either Korg, Roland or Ketron. That market may not be the most lucrative market but it would be worth a manufacturer’s while to get in to it because of brand placement and brand loyalty.
Yamaha do not make arrangers that are for professionals. They make their arrangers for the home players. But, they gradually are including some professional features in their arrangers. Why? because they know that there are persons like King DNJ who see the value in a Yamaha home arranger and would willingly use it professionally.

Now, they are not directly competing nor are they marketing to the professional arranger market, but they are ever so slowly “breaking in” to that market by including some professional features in their home arrangers and some professionals are using them.


So that is why for Yamaha to make a DGX with PSR type features or a PSR with 76 keys would solve the problem that Yamaha has with respect to 76 keys on an arranger.

First off they would and should not build a good 76 key arranger with the build quality like the G70 or PA2X pro nor would They market it as 76 keys.

Sure the specs would show 76 keys but it is marketed and sold as a very good sounding arranger first for the home player. And, who ever wants to use it even if they are not home players are very welcome to do so.

If you can remember the Ipod and how it started off (used by kids to play music for fun) but look at how you have it being used by DJs. And now they develop Ipods while still for the home player, usable to the professional.




------------------
TTG

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 10-24-2010).]
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 09:31 AM

great idea, love the concept . Put some built in speakers and i would certainly be a potential customer......

But you mustb agree there is some considerable finacial risk involved to yamaha even if we cant agree if that risk is i the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or millions. So to make your proposition palatable to yamaha you need to show hem the potential market.

show yamaha how many potential buyers you forsee actually purchasing the instrument,take into account those existing 61 key yamaha customers that might swap to the 76 key product and factor in those that would swap from another competitor product to the yamaha etc . You know , l;ike a proper forecast based upon some form of questionaire or census or whatever you might use to measure the obvious potential that you see. But they have to be based upon some real numbers.

(i would use the word survey but some people get all weirded out by the word).



[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 10-24-2010).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 09:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
great idea, love the concept . Put some built in speakers and i would certainly be a potential customer......

But you mustb agree there is some considerable finacial risk involved to yamaha even if we cant agree if that risk is i the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or millions. So to make your proposition palatable to yamaha you need to show hem the potential market.

show yamaha how many potential buyers you forsee actually purchasing the instrument,take into account those existing 61 key yamaha customers that might swap to the 76 key product and factor in those that would swap from another competitor product to the yamaha etc . You know , l;ike a proper forecast based upon some form of questionaire or census or whatever you might use to measure the obvious potential that you see. But they have to be based upon some real numbers.

(i would use the word survey but some people get all weirded out by the word).

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 10-24-2010).]


Yes numbers do matter with any business.
I am sure Yamaha has those number.
But also as with any business there is a risk that businesses must take.
Sure it must be a control risk but they must take it if they want to be competitive.
The minute a company stops taking risk, they will loose their competitiveness because other companies will be innovative and although some consumers like the same thing over and over, a great deal like different things in a new product.

And if you stop taking risk, you stop being innovative.

And that would not be good especially for a company like Yamaha.
BTW with This post this thread now has 300 post. Are you happy now King DNJ?

------------------
TTG

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 10-24-2010).]
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Hughes:

Dennis,

Lets just leave it that "I'm out"
Secondhand G70 for me and a truss ( Surgical Support).


Whatever man, I really don't give a rats bum what you do...
I was merely pointing out that you were jumping to all sorts of conclusions, and making assumptions that were all incorrect.
Posted by: Tony Hughes

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 12:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
Whatever man, I really don't give a rats bum what you do...
I was merely pointing out that you were jumping to all sorts of conclusions, and making assumptions that were all incorrect.



Look Dennis,

Just drop it now, I simply thought you were once joined at the hip with your MS, your said you HAD one which implies you don't have one now which makes one think you got rid of it, your cloak and dagger crap don’t intrigue me anymore. Please don’t answer this, unless of course you must!
Posted by: miden

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 12:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Hughes:
Look Dennis,

Just drop it now, I simply thought you were once joined at the hip with your MS, your said you HAD one which implies you don't have one now which makes one think you got rid of it, your cloak and dagger crap don’t intrigue me anymore. Please don’t answer this, unless of course you must!


LOL. Sure man no problems. I wasn't the one who asked TWICE for a reason

ciao
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 01:43 PM

Show me the thread where anyone PROVED that 61's were going to be profitable...

Mysteriously, they still make them, despite the lack of effort on our parts!

The FACT that Korg and Ketron (and, to a lesser extent, MS and Wersi) make a profit selling 76's is all the 'proof' anyone should need. Other than a zealot, of course!

All I'm hearing is that there are SOME here that think that Yamaha CAN'T make a profit selling them... from Yamaha fanboys, at that! Not exactly the kind of confidence one would expect, from those that think that Yamaha can do no wrong!
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 04:00 PM

Yamaha did do their homework Diki! They researched the market before they spent millions on producing a keyboard to the market. They know who their core customers are, what they will be prepared to pay for their keyboards, what size and weight they are sensitive to , what colours they like best, whether their customers want a sampler on the keyboard,what kind of voices/patches/tones they want on the instrument how many keys they want on their keyboard , and they fully understand the product life cycle of their instruments and how often their customers are willing to buy another keyboard. Any company that has targeted its customers must have some idea of why they have aimed their product at a particular market.

They may pick up some other customers too like pro gigging musicians, weekend warriors who only play out on the occasional weekends and odd balls like me who use them for church and personal pleasure.

But the extras ae not the target market.

The very fact that you havent changed your keyboard in the last 8-10 years means YOU DONT FIT the typical arranger customer profile of any company much less yamaha and therefore you are not nor are you ever likely to be their target market ! How will yamaha make money out of you ??? Your purchase cycle is too long !!

It isnt a matter of yamaha or korg or ketron making a product and just hoping somebody will like it . They wil have had a very good idea of who would buy and in the numbers they need to make a convincing argument for them to invest and take the risks that TTG accepts there are in any business venture. What both you and TTG missed out is that companies also target profit !

I know this is a shock to you.

They have a number that they aim for called a return on investment.Its usually express as a multiple of the capital expenditure. If they dont think they can get that number , they wont invest. End of argument. It doesnt matter if you think they can make a profit if that profit isnt in the numbers they need in terms of the ROI.

That profit figure will differ from company to company.

As an illustration ,when i first went into business i chased every sale. I worked from home ,was very hungry and ambitious but did not have the business savy of some of my contemporaries. They would chase bigger clients or more lucrative type sales , they employed telemarkers to make appointments for them and had paraplanners doing their paperwork for them. They had overheads that were equal to my monthly salary before they even started to earn But they were part of the Million dollar round table. An elite group of salesmen that earn over a million dollars in profitg per year from personal sales. Do you think they were worried if i continued to chase after tiddlers ? They were out there catching sharks and whales !!


But i learned to target my customers just as they did.

Yamaha havent entered into the 76 Key arranger market for a business reason. Now i cant say hand on heart i know for definate what that reason is. I mean we atre all just speculating right ?

But it is only people like yourself that insist the 76 Key arranger market is something that yamaha should go into again just because a small and shrinking number of other companies have and may be making some profit but you have nothing tangible to base that on but your own imagination.

TTG made a really pivotal point earlier. he said

'Yes numbers do matter with any business.
I am sure Yamaha has those number.
But also as with any business there is a risk that businesses must take.
Sure it must be a control risk but they must take it if they want to be competitive.
The minute a company stops taking risk, they will loose their competitiveness because other companies will be innovative and although some consumers like the same thing over and over, a great deal like different things in a new product.

And if you stop taking risk, you stop being innovative.'

If he had developed his argument further he would have come to the other possibility that i and others have proposed that make a whole lot more business sense than this silly notion that yamaha are just being stubborn or their corporate structure means they cant enter the market!

Surely the most reasonable speculation why yamaha have not reentered the 76 key arranger market is that having done the reseach and having appreciated the potential numbers, they simply decided that the profit margins/gains were not worth the capital investmnet and the risk.

It may not always be the case and if you have the numbers to convince yamaha differently then please go right ahead and provide them with the numbers.

Thats my last post on the matter and i am sure you will all breath a sigh of relief :-)
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 04:23 PM

Spalding... only some kind of blind faith in Yamaha's infallibility could lead you to this conclusion. I know for a FACT that Yamaha never, ever asked me... and, I would be confident in saying the VAST majority of 76 playing arranger players haven't been asked, either. They ever ask you?

If they don't ask the users of a certain type of product, what chance do they have of getting accurate figures..?
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 05:09 PM

A mere speck of sand...
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 05:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I know for a FACT that Yamaha never, ever asked me... and, I would be confident in saying the VAST majority of 76 playing arranger players haven't been asked, either. They ever ask you?



Diki, I have asked you, and, those who stated they wanted a 76'er...well, let's just say Yamaha got their messages as well.

This was after the poll we took here on SZ after the Tyros3, and also, I've sent stuff in since this thread started.

People who attend Yamaha clinics and demos are always asked.

When was the last time you went to a Yamaha demo?

First you guys have to agree on whether it's going to be a Tyros or PSR...it appears the PSR might be ahead...I really don't know.

But, a thread, even with 300 posts, with the same people going over and over basically the same thing...that's not going to fly.

Ian
Posted by: travlin'easy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 05:40 PM

Donny, "a mere speck of sand?" You're being too generous. To the corporate world of keyboard manufacturers, all keyboard manufacturers, pro players amount to nothing more than a microscopic drop of fly-**** in a mountain of pepper. Diki could climb Mount Everest, set up his multi-million-watt sound system and scream through his mic at the top of his lungs for everything he want's from the corporate world and the response will be the same. Zip, zilch, none, nada, never, nope, etc... And yet, the beat goes on and on, and on, and on, and on... Now, I asked for a better display for the PSR series of keyboards. Not only did I ask on forums, but additionally, I wrote letters and sent emails to Yamaha. It took four years, but they finally responded with a great display that is now featured on the S-910. I don't know if my letters and emails had any bearing on their decision, but I would like to think they did. Yamaha did send me a letter several weeks later thanking me for my concerns about the PSR Display. I think I still have that letter buried somewhere in the file cabinet with the other Yamaha stuff. They didn't say they would do anything, mind you, but they obviously addressed the problem.

So, Diki. I think it was a couple hundred posts back when I advised you to write a letter to Yamaha's corporate offices with your requests/demands. Have you gotten around to that yet?

Cheers,

Gary
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 06:27 PM

You know people keep talking about “asking” persons about a 76 key arranger.

What are they asking them?

I mean did Yamaha show them a picture of the G70 and ask them if they would buy a Yamaha arranger like that?
If Yamaha has determined that a new PSR based on the T4 is worth wiled, They would need to determine whether or not making it 76 keys would stop persons from buying it.
And if they feel they must ask questions about that, they have to keep all the other variables the same (price, size weight sounds and styles and OS).




------------------
TTG
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 06:45 PM

Some of you cats need to get out of Yamaha Central and wake up to the fact that just because Yamaha thinks TOTL arrangers should be 61 keys...OTHERS do not....and they sell the piss out of them!

The Korg PA2XPRO is the flagship arranger for them. The beast there very best and the PA800 (61) has less features and cost less.
Ketron is 76 (now 61 and module too)

I can buy a brand new 76 Key PA2XPRO right now! for $3100 (maybe less)...AND I can buy a brand new 61...repeat 61 key T4 for $3300(about the same as a new T3). A 61 note PA800 is only around $1,900. Basically the same with a few things missing,(some sliders, MP3 is an option...but it has built in amp/speakers). Same sounds, same styles etc.

The T4 is overpriced...plain and simple, it should be a 76 for that cost. The T4 should be around $2500.

People keep paying it...so they keep doing it to them.

Lee S.
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 06:53 PM

You guys dont get it...it's the Tyros sound not teh 76 keys that people love.....why overpriced because You think so?.....
I'm sure Yamaha research & test marketing has priced the tyros4 & other models correctly..76 lovers just buy the KORG or Ketron, Roland etc...and they should be happy?...NOT they want the YAMAHA SOUNDS, STYLES, and support.
Posted by: Nick G

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
Some of you cats need to get out of Yamaha Central and wake up to the fact that just because Yamaha thinks TOTL arrangers should be 61 keys...OTHERS do not....and they sell the piss out of them!

The Korg PA2XPRO is the flagship arranger for them. The beast there very best and the PA800 (61) has less features and cost less.
Ketron is 76 (now 61 and module too)

I can buy a brand new 76 Key PA2XPRO right now! for $3100 (maybe less)...AND I can buy a brand new 61...repeat 61 key T4 for $3300(about the same as a new T3). A 61 note PA800 is only around $1,900. Basically the same with a few things missing,(some sliders, MP3 is an option...but it has built in amp/speakers). Same sounds, same styles etc.

The T4 is overpriced...plain and simple, it should be a 76 for that cost. The T4 should be around $2500.

People keep paying it...so they keep doing it to them.

Lee S.


How much $$ was the Pa2X Pro when it FIRST came out? surely it has come down since then...

not really fair to compare the pricing of a model that has been on the market for over 2 years against something that came out just a few weeks ago.

Both Keybaords have their pros and cons which bring them equal regardless of the number of Keys they have.
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 08:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
You guys dont get it...it's the Tyros sound not teh 76 keys that people love.....why overpriced because You think so?.....
I'm sure Yamaha research & test marketing has priced the tyros4 & other models correctly..76 lovers just buy the KORG or Ketron, Roland etc...and they should be happy?...NOT they want the YAMAHA SOUNDS, STYLES, and support.

Apparently not King DNJ. You and I both know that it is all about the sounds and styles when it comes to Yamaha arrangers but others, including Yamaha do not believe it is the sounds, styles and support.


------------------
TTG
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/24/10 08:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
The T4 is overpriced...plain and simple, it should be a 76 for that cost. The T4 should be around $2500.

Lee S.


You get what you pay for...the Tyros4 is newer, as well as sounding much better than the old PA2XPro...no wonder it's more expensive.

They should be practically giving away the Korgs.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/26/10 09:36 PM

Let me get this straight....

Gary, you asked here and at Yamaha for FOUR YEARS before you got what you want.

One simple question... did you have to put up with all this negative bullshit from all the Yamaha fans while you did it? I sincerely hope not. Nothing gives you a better grip on just how LITTLE good will and empathy for our fellow musicians exists on this forum than listening to the sheer unadulterated GLEE that some like to take in slamming the door shut on what SEEMS to be a perfectly reasonable request...

But then, you wouldn't be one of those guilty of that now, would you..?

Seems like I've got another three years or so, to match your persistence. Hope the rest of you don't mind while I keep it up..! Yes I have written to Yamaha. And NO, they still have found no way of polling non-Yamaha users. Ater all, if Yamaha refuse to make good 76's, you can't blame those that WANT one from staying away from Yamaha Days (or whatever they happen to be. To be honest, I haven't heard of one anywhere NEAR me). Why should we attend demos of products we have no intention of buying?

Would YOU...? Didn't think so...
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/26/10 11:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Ater all, if Yamaha refuse to make good 76's, you can't blame those that WANT one from staying away from Yamaha Days (or whatever they happen to be. To be honest, I haven't heard of one anywhere NEAR me). Why should we attend demos of products we have no intention of buying?

Would YOU...? Didn't think so...


Diki, I'm surprised at that statement...I really thought you had more common sense.

If you don't go to a demo, you don't get to vote for a 76...if Yamaha do not make a 76, you won't go to a demo.

It's a catch-22, and it's your own doing.

I really don't know who the posters are who you say "sheer unadulterated GLEE that some like to take in slamming the door shut on what SEEMS to be a perfectly reasonable request."

Who are they?

I've been on the side of a 76'er since it started, but, I'm also aware, and you should be as well, that no manufacturer will gear up production for a new model, based on what's been posted here on SZ.

There is even less on the Yamaha sites.

I also don't understand the lack of demos in your area...my whole territory hasn't got any where near the population of where you live, yet we do quite a few demos, both before, and after (followup clinics) the holidays, or after a major product launch.

Are arrangers popular where you live? People have to see them being showcased, or, they won't understand the instrument's advantages.

Good luck with your persistence...if I can help in any way, just ask.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/26/10 11:47 PM

Well, Ian, there's you, and then there's the REST of those so all-fired blatantly against the idea. Haven't noticed THEM? Bet you not ONE of them has ever written to Yamaha either!

How many times I got to tell you... there isn't a Yamaha Tyros dealer anywhere NEAR me. I'd go in a flash if there ever were. This is the arranger black hole of the universe, here in the Panhandle! But honestly, Ian. Don't bullsh*t me. If I turned up in YOUR store, and announced loudly that I was willing to buy a 76 S910 ON THE SPOT, you honestly going to tell me that would make a difference?

Please...

All that you and all the Yamaha fanboys have shown me so far is, if it's anything you don't currently need or want, it's an affront to your personal values that someone MIGHT want something Yamaha don't make. The fault is OBVIOUSLY ours, for wanting what Yamaha have decided, in their omniscience, that no REAL musician should ever need...
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/27/10 12:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
But honestly, Ian. Don't bullsh*t me. If I turned up in YOUR store, and announced loudly that I was willing to buy a 76 S910 ON THE SPOT, you honestly going to tell me that would make a difference?



Probably not.

Then again, the evidence on this forum is hardly going to make a difference either.

The people wanting a 76'er can't even agree on whether it be based on a Tyros or a PSR.

And. as I said earlier, even the Yamaha exclusive forums show little interest...there's far more interest in setting it up like a dual manual organ, with pedals.

Yes, it is essential that you have a 76...it is also very fortunate for you, that you already have what you need.

We are both lucky in that respect.

Again, if I can help in any way, just ask.

Ian
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/27/10 12:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
All that you and all the Yamaha fanboys have shown me so far is, if it's anything you don't currently need or want, it's an affront to your personal values that someone MIGHT want something Yamaha don't make.


Do me, and the rest here, a big favor, Diki.

Tell me, besides me, who are all these "Yamaha fanboys" you're talking about?

You're being very vague, so, how about some of the names in this, apparently substantial, group of people?

Let's keep things above board, that's if you can handle it.

If you won't name them, then they are just something you are making up, and you are trying to appear the victim (or martyr)...either that, or you're just trying to stir things up.

So, as you say, let's not bullsh*t one another...what is it?

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-27-2010).]
Posted by: travlin'easy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/27/10 07:18 AM

Diki,

Glad to hear you took the time to write Yamaha, and with luck, maybe you will not have to wait four years to see favorable results.

BTW: I'm not a so-called "fanboy." I'm a fan of what sounds and works best for me. Keep in mind that I HAVE OWNED Roland, Korg and other brands along with Yamaha. For ME, it's never been the number of keys, key size, key feel, and until I got old, weight. It has always been the sound, and I personally, have always liked what I heard coming from Yamaha's MOTL and TOTL arrangers.

Cheers,

Gary
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/27/10 07:51 AM

What?.....this thread is still going on?
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/27/10 07:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by travlin'easy:
Diki,

BTW: I'm not a so-called "fanboy." I'm a fan of what sounds and works best for me. Keep in mind that I HAVE OWNED Roland, Korg and other brands along with Yamaha. For ME, it's never been the number of keys, key size, key feel, and until I got old, weight. It has always been the sound, and I personally, have always liked what I heard coming from Yamaha's MOTL and TOTL arrangers.



Gary,

Methinks friend Diki is exaggerating a little, to try and lend credence to his posts.

So, I suppose I am the only "fanboy" so far, if you're not.

I wonder who the rest are...maybe Diki will consent to tell us their names?

That Tyros4 is looking better all the time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpfKs4ZK7Dk

Leigh's demo is terrific.

Ian
Posted by: travlin'easy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/27/10 02:11 PM

I would tend to think that if Diki, or anyone else on the Zone, for that matter, would pose a logical argument to Yamaha, or any other arranger keyboard manufacturer, pertaining to an added feature that would benefit ALL users, current and potential, they would listen to his or her plea.

In my case, the change to a TFT display made it so everyone could readily see the display from any angle in both low and high intensity light conditions. I asked for a sunlight viewable display, which they did not provide, but the new displays are really incredible, which is evident on the S-910.

I also asked for high-intensity LED indicator lamps on the buttons so they could be seen outdoors--they didn't provide them. Much of the reasoning behind this was made perfectly clear when a poll taken about 10 years ago revealed that less than 1/10 of 1-percent of the performers played outdoors. Therefore, when you take into consideration that the percentage of pro players is probably less than 1-percent of the total, arranger keyboard market, then the percentage, or actual number that perform outdoors must be minuscule.

Cheers,

Gary
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/27/10 03:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by travlin'easy:
I would tend to think that if Diki, or anyone else on the Zone, for that matter, would pose a logical argument to Yamaha, or any other arranger keyboard manufacturer, pertaining to an added feature that would benefit ALL users, current and potential, they would listen to his or her plea.



Of course they would listen, Gary.

It's just that Diki likes to make it seem that there are many, Yamaha "fanboys"(his words) against his proposal...it's not that way at all.

Most of us are all for it, and would help in any way possible.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/27/10 11:02 PM

Simply read this entire thread. Note down EVERYONE that is against the idea of Yamaha making a 76 MOTL or TOTL. Now, ask yourself what they play... Yep, a Yamaha 61. So, they got NO stake whatsoever in the issue.

But they SURE like to post, don't they?

Like I said, without the Greek chorus, this thread would have been ten to twenty posts long. Thanks for making it so big...

There were ten 76 players that responded (which is NOT all the 76 players here, by a LONG shot). Of those ten that responded, only TWO said they wouldn't be interested in a Yamaha 76. I don't imagine Yamaha's own polling figures express any greater percentage of response. Ten respondents out of what, maybe sixty or so regular posters on this forum. I bet Yamaha don't poll 15% of their ENTIRE customer base, either. But apparently, I have to provide better figures than Yamaha have to!

Add to that that polling a customer base that doesn't include anyone that actually WANTS what they don't currently make, and this little straw poll is looking more and more accurate every day!
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/27/10 11:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
But apparently, I have to provide better figures than Yamaha have to!

!


I knew you wouldn't answer my question...avoiding it only confirms what I said...you're just trying to play the victim...it ain't working.

Neither is this entire thread...it may be long, but it says very little...much like your posts.

So continue to play the victim if you wish, but, unless you follow Spalding's wise advice, posted several times during this thread, and actually get some hard numbers, I'm afraid we'll see nothing of what you seek, no matter how big this thread gets.

In fact, in case you haven't noticed, the percentage of content (including your own posts) that would be positive towards what you think you want, gets less as the thread grows...

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/29/10 12:01 AM

But the percentage of those posts with no relevance increases... Well done, once again.

Kind of reminds me of Animal Farm...

Four legs good... two legs baaaaad!
Four legs good... two legs baaaaad!
Four legs good... two legs baaaaad!
Four legs good... two legs baaaaad!
Four legs good... two legs baaaaad!

You keep saying it over and over, you can drown out all KINDS of good ideas.


61keys good... 76 keys baaaaad!
61keys good... 76 keys baaaaad!
61keys good... 76 keys baaaaad!
61keys good... 76 keys baaaaad!
61keys good... 76 keys baaaaad!

Sorry, Ian, but I feel that, if Yamaha don't consider that everybody ELSE selling (and making a profit from) 76's is enough proof that the market exists, you must be INSANE to suggest that writing in to inform them of something they can see with their own eyes is going to do any good whatsoever.

You aren't crazy, are you?
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/29/10 12:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
You aren't crazy, are you?


If I hadn't been so crazy, I'd have gone insane...

Seriously, they (whoever "they" are) say insanity is doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting different results.

You have brought up the same old Yamaha 76'er scenario with each new Tyros iteration...yet we still count 61.

Mmmmm...you aren't insane, are you?

Perhaps I'm just as bad, since I've been supporting your cause all along.

Ian
Posted by: Diki

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/29/10 12:59 PM

Let's just say, if Yamaha had NEVER made the PSR9000pro, or the DGX series, or the NP80v, or the YPG's, then I'd say yes, I was CRAZY to think they would ever make what I want..!

But seeing as how they HAVE, I'd say that anyone that thinks they will NEVER make a 76 MOTL is the CRAZY one...
Posted by: Dnj

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/29/10 01:49 PM

http://www.keyboardforums.com/61-73-76-88-keys-t1679.html
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Would You Buy A Tyros 4 with 76 keys?....... - 10/29/10 05:06 PM

Donny,
Yep, exactly...
Lee S.