Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF

Posted by: Bachus

Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/23/10 08:36 AM

My good old S90ES has 4 elements per voice max, Motif XS and Motif XF have 8 elements/ voice.

Since Tyros has the same sound engine as the newer Motifs, how does Tyros handle these elements, seems like they are hidden somewhere deep intoo the soundengine and can't be tweaked/edited by users. Or is the Tyros 3 sound engine totally different?

Its easy to find how much Wave rom Motif instruments have... (XF has 760MB) but its much harder to find how much wave rome current and older Tyros versions have. I know T1 has 96 MB, but how about T2, T3 and espescially T4?

All in all the online video's seem to indicate that T4 will sound just as good as Motif XF, but then with a lot less sounds and only minor sound edditing abilities. But then T4 makes up for that by outshining Motif with its excellent SA and SA2 voices.

All in all i am just interested to know the differences in the sound engine.
Posted by: Kingfrog

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/24/10 01:29 AM

I beleieve the difference sis in the EDITING...Tyros has already edited those elements. The Motif allows the user ot edit each and every aspect of all eight elements to create a single voice. It rightly appears Yamaha believes the Tyros is plug and play while the Motif is a creator's toy from raw wave form to finished voice. Multis are a good example of that. You can create them on a Motif to a great extent using elements velocity switching, scaling and a crapload of effects per element.

The took edited XF synth sounds and put them in they Tyros with minimal editing capabilities. The Drums are much better however. They don;t sound like Live drums and are still processed to blend in a smooth mix. The CD quality is the Tyros signature. For those of us who like that it is a winner. For those who want more raw visceral tracks it is milk toast. If you have a Motif you have all the visceral you need to create tracks that can be played back on the Tyros live minus parts.\\


What's it worth?
-15 more SA2 voices
-new VH2 engine with dedicated DSP effects a new preamp and signal processing under the hood, add up to three harmony vocalists in addition to your own voice and with new pitch recognition and stability controls
new Synth Vocoder.

Voices 993/749
S. Articulation 2 15 +15 for styles) /11
S.Articulation! 164/
MegaVoice 43/23
Live! 101/70
Cool! 71/71
Sweet! 30/30
Organ Flutes! 30 Presets
Drums 44 (including SFX kits) vs 12 T3
Internal Flash 6MB
Styles 500/300

Multi Pads 164 x4/123 x4
So there are quite a bit of upgrading in the oices and styles.

Is it worth $1500 more?

The market will determine that...So far they have bought more than the previous models. wITH A TWO YEAR RELEASE ESNG THE FINANCIAL GAP TEY SHOULD CONTINUE TO SELL MORE...
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/24/10 05:28 AM

Kingfrog,
Why do you say it's $1500 more??
Lee S.
Posted by: doc-z

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/24/10 12:23 PM

So the XF has all the voices of the Tyros4? So with an XF rack, and OneManBand I could have the Tyros4 sound, with the added bonus of being able to edit and create my own sounds?
Posted by: leeboy

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/24/10 04:36 PM

Things must have changed then...because when I spent a day with an XS...it sure didn't have full T3 sounds. I had them setting side by side at sweetwater.

Lee S.
Posted by: Diki

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/24/10 07:20 PM

It makes you wonder why, if the MoXF has FULL SA2 editing, and the same samples as the T4, why they didn't include the T4 edits as a ROM Voice. You can't say that the MoXF is strictly a blank canvas for you to build your own custom sounds on... there is an EXTENSIVE set of presets in both single voice and Combi's for you to start with OOTB.

So why haven't Yamaha included what seems to be the BEST programming they can when making the ROM sounds?
Posted by: Bachus

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/24/10 07:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by doc-z:
So the XF has all the voices of the Tyros4? So with an XF rack, and OneManBand I could have the Tyros4 sound, with the added bonus of being able to edit and create my own sounds?



I dont think so..

They use the same technics to create sound from samples... But they deffinatley have a different set of samples (and presets)
Posted by: abacus

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/25/10 12:44 AM

Remember Motif and Tyros are destined for 2 different sectors of the market, and if they are using the same sound engine, their features and voices will have been tailored to suit their particular market segments.

Hence you canít use a Motif as a full on Arranger, and neither can you use a Tyros as a full on Workstation.

Bill
Posted by: Nedim

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/25/10 03:52 AM

Remembet that Motif has no SA voices while Tyros has MegaVoices.
Posted by: jwyvern

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/25/10 05:05 AM

Quoting Kingfrog:

"You can create them on a Motif to a great extent using elements velocity switching, scaling and a crapload of effects per element."

You can do that on Tyros too using the PC Editor (although not with SA or Mega type voices)
john
Posted by: Kingfrog

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/25/10 08:32 AM

I believe the MEGA voices are multi Element voices that can be recreated to a great extent on the XS using velocity switching. IF one enjoys that sort of thing. To my knowledge that cannot be done on the Tyros. There doesn't seem to be a [provision for creating voices from 8 elements of ROM voices (like piano damper off which is an actually wave form that can be used as an element an edited in any way)

Only the SYNTH voice from the Motif were passed on the the T4 to my recollection. The Tyros is the FIRST instrument in Yamaha's digital instrument unit to get NEW technology.

I am sure they share a lot of voices, In fact having both I know they do however, the editing on the Motif is far deeper per element. I don;t see where I can select envelopes, effects routing, filtering, EQ on 8 elements of a voice on the Tyros. Most of that is done already. I have not done this but O believe you can edit the Multi voices on the XS using SW as well.The Tyros 4 is likely to cost more than the Motif XF XF8 Go figure.

@Leeboy I meant $1500 more than a used T3. That is the question T3 owners must resolve IF the T4 MAPS for $3999 and sells for $3500 at under MAP discount houses.
Im still waiting for my dealer to get an official price list so I can see what I can buy the T4 for at 10% below that and sell the T3 for a price a 910 buyer would think seriously about. I am looking for a $500 spread. Since I am not Upgrading the Motif I may sell the T3 for less and pay up t the T4,

The XF does not have what my XSF has stock. I don;t use the sampling feature Tyros and PC covers that well enough so the flash cards mean nothing. I do use the MLan FW which is an option now on the XF. Besides that Yamaha has said they will update the XS8 with the SW capability of the XF, More ROM is nice but having both the Tyros and the Motif as well as soft synths, I am already up to my ears in voices I will never use.

The biggest upgrade of the XF as far as I am concerned are the ARPS. Can't get enough guitar ARPS...lol
Posted by: Kingfrog

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/25/10 08:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
It makes you wonder why, if the MoXF has FULL SA2 editing, and the same samples as the T4, why they didn't include the T4 edits as a ROM Voice. You can't say that the MoXF is strictly a blank canvas for you to build your own custom sounds on... there is an EXTENSIVE set of presets in both single voice and Combi's for you to start with OOTB.

So why haven't Yamaha included what seems to be the BEST programming they can when making the ROM sounds?


DIKI

I don't believe they have the same exact Wave ROM all throughout the unit. That would indicate the Motif has custom edited those wave ROMS and thus it should sound much better...Unless they edited them on the Motif and burned them back into the Tyros leaving some perimeters adjustable.

I also don't believe Yamaha does not share a ton of waveform technology either. There is a crossover. The 720 the CVP501/503 The 910= the CVP 503 509 etc.

The Tyros gets the best of the best Yamaha engineering has to offer and it trickles down to the Motifs and Arrangers.
-----------------------------------------------
@Jon Quoting Kingfrog:

[quote] "You can create them on a Motif to a great extent using elements velocity switching, scaling and a crapload of effects per element."

You can do that on Tyros too using the PC Editor (although not with SA or Mega type voices)john[quote]
----------------------------------------------
I don't see where on any Tyros I can load up 8 wave ROMS and edit each one individually. Not saying it can't but I am not familiar with that feature of the Tyros if it is there...




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 09-25-2010).]
Posted by: Kingfrog

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/25/10 08:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nedim:
Remembet that Motif has no SA voices while Tyros has MegaVoices.


The Motif does have expanded Articulations that can be incorporated into the voice elements and triggered in numerous ways.

Megavoices are more suited to Arrangers for the STYLES. There are no Styles on the Motif but the ARPS do use ROMS that seemingly use MEGAvoice technology although the spec sheet does not list x amount of Mega voices

6000 ARPS have to use that technology in some manner as all the elements for the Megavoice are there. Squeaks, slaps,string dynamics, on and on.

Programing voices is an ART and for many a hobby unto itself. I try to buy voices out of the box, Rarely do I even get on the Element level and tweak.
Posted by: Kingfrog

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/25/10 09:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
Kingfrog,
Why do you say it's $1500 more??
Lee S.


I think the value for many people to upgrade their T3s has to be around that or more.

I they can buy a T4 from a discounter under MAP (which I believe will start at $3999.99)for lets say $3700...They should be able to sell their T3 easily for $2200.

I think Dealer cost will be $500 more than the T3 ( at least I am hoping not more than that) I have heard rumors of $6000 MAP pricing LOL..But that has to be with that funky overpriced speaker system and maybe even the "official" Tyros stand.
Posted by: jwyvern

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/25/10 10:20 AM

Quoting Kingfrog
" I don;t see where I can select envelopes, effects routing, filtering, EQ on 8 elements of a voice on the Tyros."

On Tyros, Effects and EQ are set on the complete voice, not elements. The others are available on elements plus a whole host of settings which I'll just describe as your "crap load of settings" rather than list them unless you want me to

They are available on Tabs within the PC Editor named
Oscillator
Pitch EG (presumably Envelope Generator)
Filter EG
Amp EG
AEG Scale (Scaling offsets)
DCF (Hi & Lo pass filters)

You can take elements from existing preset voices (non SA or Mega)or add or use wav files.

I haven't seen the Motif Editor but wouldn't be at all surprised if it's more "sophisticated" in it's design than the Tyros one.

With all the concern and debate with differentiating between Work Stations and Arrangers I find it ironic that Yamaha continue to call their Tyros's "Digital Workstations" as described on the front of the manual and printed on the case, bottom right under "Tyros2 or 3" etc.

john
Posted by: Kingfrog

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/25/10 11:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jwyvern:
Quoting Kingfrog
" I don;t see where I can select envelopes, effects routing, filtering, EQ on 8 elements of a voice on the Tyros."

On Tyros, Effects and EQ are set on the complete voice, not elements. The others are available on elements plus a whole host of settings which I'll just describe as your "crap load of settings" rather than list them unless you want me to

They are available on Tabs within the PC Editor named
Oscillator
Pitch EG (presumably Envelope Generator)
Filter EG
Amp EG
AEG Scale (Scaling offsets)
DCF (Hi & Lo pass filters)

You can take elements from existing preset voices (non SA or Mega)or add or use wav files.

I haven't seen the Motif Editor but wouldn't be at all surprised if it's more "sophisticated" in it's design than the Tyros one.

With all the concern and debate with differentiating between Work Stations and Arrangers I find it ironic that Yamaha continue to call their Tyros's "Digital Workstations" as described on the front of the manual and printed on the case, bottom right under "Tyros2 or 3" etc.

john

What you listed and the Tyros has are very basic editing features that are found in the most basic synths but in no way compare to the Motif or even the MO series.

I have created voices on the Tyros or rather edited voices. But it's "synth editing 101" on the Tyros. Very basic.
Posted by: jwyvern

Re: Soundsource Tyros 4 versus Motif XF - 09/25/10 12:06 PM

Hi Kingfrog:

"I have created voices on the Tyros or rather edited voices. But it's "synth editing 101" on the Tyros. Very basic".

It's almost as if you could be talking about the onboard voice editor in that case- for just editing. If you have used the offsite editor (ie. the PC software) and are basing your comments on that then fair enough.

Just want to make sure we are not talking 2 different things

Cheers, john