Why are brands and models so important to us?

I was looking around over the week-end at a bunch of instruments in the warehouse on my annual, pathetic effort to "trim the fat".

Looked at lots of basses, banjos, guitars, vibes, keyboards, etc.

It occurred to me that, prior to joining the "zone", none of the people I was associated with in the music business EVER had the kind of heated, passionate discussions about the brands and models of instruments they played, with other players.

As you know, sometimes, it gets a little "heated" around here, to say the least.

Guitar players, bass players, drummers and horn players have their preferences, naturally, but that's mostly related to style preferences and comfort with particular instruments. They HARDLY EVER argue that "theirs is the best", or put down what others play like people sometimes do here.

Is that because arranger players are so dependent on the specific "missing band members" features of the arranger?

Is that because OMB ego's take over?

Is that because of the anonymous nature of internet communications?

Just strikes me as being odd, and sometimes really sad!

Russ

Russ sorry but I wont even touch this ...
it has "EGOFEST" written all over it. when you talk brand loyalty after laying out mucho bucks your gonna get major defensive ego driven mine is the best right or wrong replies every time.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-22-2010).]

Donny, I hope not, because that was certainly not the intent.

I'm hoping for some intelligent looks at interactions between a group of folks united by a common bond.

I want to understand the issue better and don't have the answers others may have.

Don't see why ego's need to have anything to do with this one.


R.

Russ, many forums are as colorful as SZ...just check out Piano World or some of the guitar sites.

SZ is not a brand specific forum, and the heated exchanges seem to be a natural part of this type of forum

Non-specific brand automotive forums are much the same...GM vs Ford, Honda vs Toyota, Yugo vs Ketron...er, scratch that last one...Ketron don't make cars...yet.

Just don't say anything you wouldn't say to a person face to face...that's usually a good rule.

Threatening remarks, racist comments, and foul language have no place on any forum, in my opinion.

Ian

Ian, I'm sure you're right. I don't frequent any other forums, so I've never seen the "back and forth" you're describing. Since my boy and I restore and show old scooters and cars, I can imagine how heated some of those sites can get.

I guess I need to "look around" a little to see what's up and how people interact with each other.

You'd think someone who teaches interpersonal communications could have figured that one out.

My frame of reference was players of other instruments and direct contact with them, not interaction with them on websites dedicated to specific instruments, styles, etc.

Ian, what you tell me makes a whole lot of sense. It's a little embarrassing that I didn't see the obvious.

Thanks,

Russ

Russ, you have always been the perfect gentleman on this forum.

I admire your restraint and sense of fair play.

Ian

Yeah, Russ, before you start thinking that SZ is an isolated example of 'brand-ism' you REALLY need to get out on the web and realize that, for all the shenanigans that makes you roll your eyes, quite honestly, it's a pretty tame place compared to MANY. One of the advantages of mostly being elderly people, I guess!

Trust me, if you think THIS place gets infantile, you have NO IDEA how bad it gets, out there!

One of the things that drives the 'brand-ism' here also is just HOW related brand and capability are... On a guitar forum, well, guitars are all pretty much the same! (See how even that simplistic statement can get a guitarist a bit heated up! ). But guitars, they pretty much ALL got frets, six strings, pickups, tuners, you name it. Doesn't stop some pretty heated exchanges, single coil vs. hummmers, vintage vs. new, etc..

But arrangers have some wildly different approaches, even form factors, very different capabilities, and sometimes even a whole different demographic they are supposed to appeal to. Throw them ALL in the same mix, you are going to get friction...

Compared to most forums, to be honest, SZ is a sea of tranquility!

I don't care about brand at all. If it has keys, I'm interested. Simple as that.

Not one brand has it all and I don't want to waste my time and effort to try each and every sound/style on different keyboards for even then it would get me nowhere. So it's fair to say that I like whatever that's out there. Then again, I am the kind of player who just wants to sit down and play. Happiness is in the playing and not the anatomy of an instrument.

"Guitar players, bass players, drummers and horn players have their preferences, naturally, but that's mostly related to style preferences and comfort with particular instruments. They HARDLY EVER argue that "theirs is the best", or put down what others play like people sometimes do here."

I totally agree.

Taike

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 09-22-2010).]

I'm going to look around at some guitar sites this week-end. Diki, when you said all guitars are quite the same, I tended to agree with you. But when you started mentioning the possibility of arguing single pole vs. humbuckers, set necks vs. neck-through's or other arrangements...there are probably lots of dweebs out there arguing on line, just as arranger folks do.

I think that the comparison I was making was me sitting face to face-side by side with a fellow player. I was thinking guitar, but the instrument may not make much difference. That same courteous person could conceivably
become a raging monster on a site where he/she would be anonymous.

Looks like I need to get out more.

And Ian, on the times when you got your "back up" a little, I understood why.

IT'S PROBABLY FRUSTRATION AT HAVING TO PLAY THOSE DAMN PLASTIC TOY YAMAHA HOME KEYBOARDS
ALL THE TIME (LOL)! (SERIOUS Kidding here, folks, of course)! Ian, I have enjoyed our limited but substantive contact-thanks!

Best to all!

Russ

I am convinced that there isn't a single one of us here at SZ that, if we meet a fellow member face to face wouldn't get on with them like a house on fire. We have FAR more in common than we have differences

I would be honored to meet Ian, TTG, Spalding, Kingfrog, even Donny , should I ever have the opportunity. It's simply the nature of the written form, and forums in general, that makes the tone so combative. A smile, a wink, face to face they make even the most blatant statement less combative, more tongue in cheek... Sadly, emoticons don't seem to take as much sting out of a statement than seeing someone do it!

Add to that so many different styles and abilities to articulate your opinion, and often we find ourselves arguing, even when, at the core, we probably agree! I know my wordy formal tone and cut and dry writing style often gets people's backs up no matter WHAT I write, but I'm afraid I don't like the idea of stooping to incoherent, badly spelled ungrammatical English, just to fit in, sometimes..!

We've also got a fairly rare thing, a complete mixture of amateur and pro, stellar player and tyro, all mixed up with often no idea who is who. It's hardly surprising that misunderstandings, or utterly different viewpoints often crop up...

I tried, I honestly did, to give this place a rest, but it didn't last long. Talking about arrangers and music (very occasionally!) is so much FUN... We used to be a nation of letters 100 years ago, and written communication was the primary means of information exchange. This is sadly what that has devolved into, but I GUESS that's progress..?!

Diki and Ian, I looked at some guitar sites late last night after work and, man, you're right!

I saw a bunch of combative, bordering on abusive spats about things that matter so little...optimum string gauge, for instance.

When talking to a guitar player face to face, the conversation is defined by the level of expertise/ability, I believe. I get lots of kids coming up to me at gigs talking about their Ibanez XXX (or whatever) model acoustic. I'm polite but don't stay glued to their every word. But, you'd better believe I'd pay REALLY close attention to Lee Ritenauer, Tommy Emmanuel, George Benson, Rory Hoffman, or people who played like them.

Diki's comment about the nuances of non-verbal communications is right on.

I guess confrontation is just a by-product of on-line places like "the Zone".

But, you know what? I DON'T LIKE that part of the on-line communications process.

It takes so little extra time to be courteous and respectful. And, you learn much more, when the process isn't confrontational. That doesn't mean you don't share your opinion; you just do it in a manner that does not offend people with opposite opinions. After all, that other person is entitled to think whatever he/she wants.

All of this just makes me appreciate those here who have always been great to communicate with, which, by a wide margin has been the great majority of my interactions; even with people who are typically "first in line" when a dispute surfaces.


Thanks to all. There are good reasons why this is the only site I visit on a regular basis.


Russ

I think a forum dedicated to any instrument, or genre of instruments in this case, is going to be a form of navel-gazing. Maybe looking at the same old navel all the time makes one a little stir-crazy.

On the OMB point, it could be that the four or five egos normally associated with a bunch of guys becomes concentrated in the one individual. Jeez, does that make us all borderline multiple personality cases? Maybe they'll start putting health warning stickers on arrangers. Yikes!

"Warning! The Surgeon General has determined that playing an arranger is hazardous to your ego, causing inflation and an undeserved sense of ability"

Diki, now, THAT is FUNNY!


Russ

...and insulting to many

No-one HERE with an inflated ego and overdeveloped sense of ability, SURELY..?

OMG...you guys are starting to sound like those of us in the Silent Majority who tune in here daily just to lurk and watch the bedlam that goes on from a safe distance.
Eddie

Jim, my take on the ego comment was a general observation about the inverse relationship, sometimes, between ability/talent and ego.

Over the 50 plus years I've been working in this business, the biggest "over the top" egomaniacs have been people of marginal ability, at best.

The "monsters" are secure and, as a general rule, extremely polite, humble and enjoyable to be with. Rory, for instance, is a certified "monster", in my opinion, and there isn't a person more enjoyable to hang out with. He's secure in his abilities and a genuinely nice guy.

That goes for here, too. In my opinion, some of the most "in your face" posters are on the low end of the talent pool.

Key words here are "in my opinion", and nothing would be accomplished as a result of identifying specific individuals.

Same thing is true in most facets of the business world and any creative field.

The people who have it together are cool. The ones unsure of themselves let egos overcome their brains and mouths.

This is just a general observation/opinion, certainly not intended to offend anyone.

Diki's "tongue in cheek" comment sort of told the story as only he can, probably offending some, which speaks to the general theme of this entire post.


Russ

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 09-24-2010).]

It's human nature...if You dont have confidence in YOURSELF.....who will?.....
no one likes to be put down when they think they are better then that, & spent a ton of money on gear they perceive is the best,..it all coincides with the Egocentric naturalist of the human species in all of us..

A think a lot of the trouble when the words 'The Best' start to be applied definitively, rather than comparatively. In my opinion, NO arranger is 'the best', all of them could stand considerable improvement, without exception. Unfortunately, there are many that are TOO invested in their purchasing decision to be able to admit that. You just spent a FORTUNE on a new arranger, and now someone has the temerity to find fault with it..?! How DARE he (or she!)...

I've said many times, we tend to treat these things like our grandchildren, rather than the simple (TOO simple, IMO!) tools for making music that they are. Any slight to them is a slight to US.

I can't see us getting so worked up about a spade, or a shovel in our gardening sheds, but don't you DARE criticize my arranger!

In my case, I get very frustrated with the fact that really good features seem to be divided evenly amongst different manufacturers. No-one makes anything that combines the BEST of each. So, you ALWAYS have to make a compromise when you decide on a model, and perhaps some people don't want to admit they have made any compromise at all... That opens the door to being able to admit your arranger DOES have flaws. Oh, the horror.... the horror!

But without criticism, without making the lurking manufacturer reps realize that we DO want improvement, it slows down the pace of innovation and improvement. As far as I am concerned, sticking to your guns and refusing to admit there is room for improvement only slows down the pace of refinement and upgrade.

Treat them like a spade... expose that dirt!