Lionstracs Demos now on Tastenpoint YouTube site

Tastenpoint is an Austrian dealer that also sells Roland, Ketron and Orla
http://www.youtube.com/TASTENPOINTat

Enjoy

Bill

http://www.youtube.com/TASTENPOINTat#p/u

watch more, he used qranger with audio styles.

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-15-2010).]

Great stuff

And it looks so easy...

If you speak german this is an awesome tutorial too...

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 04-15-2010).]

Bad sound quality recording.

Impuls

looks so easy ? Look at the arranger demo . Demo 4. Look at the way the demonstrator is changing the sounds in the right hand. He has to move the sliders up and down to fade out one sound and fade in another. that has to be the most unnatural way of changing sounds i have ever seen which is exactly why in the demos it would appear that the right hand sounds are imbalanced . This is because in a split second it is impossible to to change sounds like this accurately. Does the demonstrator not know about one touch settings ? It doesnt sound all that great either . To be honest they really should have simply left the arranger function alone like Dom had said he would. This demo will do untold damage to the Liontracs pro synth image(the little that it had).

AS for the technical ease to do what the MS was designed to do. i think folks should look at the Liontracs thread that James started and see where the experiment is leading him . He said he would honestly report everything he found, warts and all. I guess he was true to his word.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum44/HTML/000016.html

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 04-15-2010).]

Hi Spalding
Moving sliders to fade in sounds is a common European way of doing things, (Look at European player videos and you will see extensive use of volumes) and is used in combination with switching and total pre-sets.
Another point to note is that most European players alter the volumes while playing without changing sounds (This is why most European designed instruments have real time sliders/drawbars for almost everything) so as to alter sections, as occurs in a real band.
Sound: Well compare that demo and Irishacts demo and you would not think they are the same instrument, as Europeans like a nice bright (Plenty of reverb) type of sound.
In this instance though the recording quality, or most likely the transfer to YouTube is not at its best.

The above is the reason I specified in my post, that it was from a European dealer, so that listeners would be prepared for the sound settings used and the way the instruments are played.

Bill

Altering the sliders to change volumes is the only natural way to do this on the fly hence why sliders are used on most mixing consoles but using the sliders to change sounds is plain stupid. You can see in the youtube clip that the guy at times has to take both hands off the keyboard at the same time to alter settings on the fly !!! And numerous times he has had to go back and adjust the settings in mid flow because he did not grab the correct slider first time or did not slide it far enough or too far to eliminate one sound so that it did not double up with the new right hand sound. If that is intentional then thats why a true arranger in terms of live performance cant be beaten because ergomically it is configured specifically for live play.

Hi Spalding
It works both ways, using sliders to change sounds may be stupid to you, but to most European players its quite natural, and if you talk to them, you will find they have difficulty understanding why the UK/US players are so transfixed on OTS, as to them using the same performances for each gig/Song seems pointless.
The thing you have to understand, is that everyone is different (Something Diki also has problems comprehending) and just because they like or do something different to you, does not make them stupid. (Unless you believe freedom to allow people to express themselves and do what they want, (Within the law) should be curtailed of course)
Regards

Bill

On COMBI mode, on the main Patch Gui, you are able to changes in realtime the 8 layered sounds, BUT also are available the 8 Mute/Unmute keys sounds.
For me was more EASY to use the 8 switch keys instead of the 8 sliders, but everyone is FREE to use the system how they like.

Why this fuzz about the sliders...

Herman also tells that you can also change sounds by using the buttons under the sliders..

I don't care if someone does something DIFFERENTLY to how I do it, but what matters is whether they do it MUSICALLY. If you have to take both hands off a keyboard to achieve something I can do with a foot pedal or with a quick switch with one hand, that's just plain WORSE.

As well as different!

It's all in the technique pedals or not....there are NO rules...
The final Sound product is what matters EVERY time!

The Lionstracs has the capability to use real time sliders, knobs, or foot pedals to alter and select sounds so why is it even of concern that Tastenpoint chose to use sliders to adjust sounds and volumes? If you don't care to use sliders simply use a foot pedal!

i was only pointing to what looked like the awkwardness of using the sliders to change sounds . I mean look at demo 6 at 2.32 where he changes from a sax sound to strings but doesnt grab the slider properly and the sax still comes through and he has to grab it again to eliminate it. As this was a demonstration of how to use the arranger function i just thought not only did it look messy using the sliders to change the sounds in the right hand it also sounded messy.But i am not going to get hung up on it.Thanks for the info about using the switches as an alternative to switch sounds. If that was his choice to use the sliders it was a poor choice for demonstration purposes but nevermind.

Ensnare you i know you have a mediastation. Can i ask how you change sounds on yours and how much time is spent setting up the sounds so that you can change them on the fly whichever method you use or when you are playing styles does the Mediastation set them up in some kind of default mode like all the other closed arrangers do that you can later alter to your own tastes if you dont like the factory suggested set ups ?

He was not demonstrating the arranger function in video 6. He was just using an MP3 and playing allong wiht it..

As he did in most video's.. i beleive he uses the arranger only once in those 8 video's (video 2)

sorry you are right bachus. he still wasnt able to use the sliders fluently to change sounds. I just listened to Demo 8. Are you sure they are trying to sell this machine ?

Come back Dom all is forgiven.......

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 04-17-2010).]

How petty can you guys be? So a guy playing the Lionstracs keyboard wasn't using the sliders to your liking. That doesn't mean using sliders isn't viable. Then again maybe he was just trying to show the general public what the board sounds like, what type of features it had, and what could be done with it and he didn't give a damn whether or not his volumes were consistent.

i didnt mean to cause offence Ensnare you. there are very few demos in good english that explain how the mediastation can work or how it can be configured. Earlier in this thread there was a comment about how easy the mediastaion could be used . It didnt look easy using the sliders that way. Later someone explained that there were buttons that could be used to do the same thing and that it was all about personal choice. I didnt think i was being petty simply asking the question i did. If it came accross that way let me nip it in the bud immediately and apologise. i dont have access to a mediastation and the only information i have is through the liontracs demos and people like yourselves who own one and the thread that James has started which has been quite informative.

I don't care if he were using a magic wand! Or a certain unnamed part of his anatomy...

What I care about is, does it SOUND amazing..?

Sorry, but the jury is still out from listening to most of these turkeys...

Watching someone struggle with volumes and sound selection while trying to play at the same time is usually a good indicator of whether something is easy to set up in advance or not. Generally, you'll see those people with easy to use OS's doing the least adjustments while they play, whereas someone constantly fiddling live (and getting in the way of the playing) seems to indicate that whatever settings need to be made that ease this burden were more bother than they were worth...

It's not just whether you can DO something - it's whether doing it is a PITA or not.

And, I'm sorry, but I tend to divide playing an arranger into two different things. One is working the controls, and the other is actually PLAYING music. The more you have to do the former, the less you can do the latter. Basically, if you have TIME to mess around with the sliders, buttons, what have you, you simply aren't PLAYING very much...

Once again you presume a lot not truly knowing anything about the actual instrument. Just because one person didn't have the instrument setup the way you'd want it set up doesn't mean it can't do what you want. The Mediastation can be setup like any other arranger and can even do much more with all its real time sliders and controls. How the user utilizes those controls is up to them. So Tastenpoint didn't operate the sliders smoothly enough for you, why the hell should that bother you. If you owned a Mediastation you'd set it up the way you'd want to use not the way Tastenpoint was playing it. I seriously doubt your G70 is setup the way it originally came from the factory. I'm sure you've spent considerable time learning its functions and adjusting the setup to your liking as should be.

Didn't say a darn thing about whether it could do it or not...

Just commented about whether it was EASY to do. Helps to read my comments before you go off half-cocked, old chum. And MORE than one person has commented about how awkwardly the way he has chosen to do what it a common task. Why SHOULDN'T anyone comment about that? Once you take it upon yourself to demonstrate using a particular piece of gear, you can't honestly expect people to NOT comment when something you do seems to turn playing into more of an equipment operating session than a pleasurable PLAYING experience...

The fact that most people here have already chosen to use an arranger rather than a complex WS is a pretty good indicator that PLAYING, rather than programming is their main focus. So demonstrating an arranger with a complex WS-like control system is OBVIOUSLY going to raise more than a few red flags...

You CAN drive a car steering with your feet, and operating the gas and brake with your hands. But would you WANT to? The more you actually PLAY (rather than let the machine play for you), the less time you have to operate controls. But anyway, bottom line... forget the controls. Is anybody blown away just by the sound and styles, etc.? I really wasn't.

Yamaha's demonstrators seem to understand that, if nothing else at all, a demonstration had better blow you away with the sound and playing. Most MS demonstrators seem to miss this basic fact, and think that showing you feature after feature (without demonstrating how MUSICALLY they can be used to impress) is sufficient. Whether it's a $500 cheap arranger or a $5000 über-arranger, demo it to its' best MUSICAL advantage, and people will buy it. Act like you are an MIT lecturer, and people will fall asleep.

Where did he use audiostyles?

here at the end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHSRsSy0nGA

Aye you're right at 8.15 he starts using a style with audio drums.

Feature after features is exactly all we get,The demo left allot to be desired both in sound and ease of operation,okay, time you spend a year or so presetting a total playable programme i suppose it could perhaps function as an arranger but to my old ears, is yet noway comparable sound wise and the ease of use with any of the other mainstream arranger products.
As an arranger player I want first good and varied styles arrangements,then,good edit features for both style and voices,Ease of use,and good edit features for the Global parameters So I can spend all my time playing rather than fiddling around,for this I can use my computer.The voice changes in the demo using slider was not precise sometimes in a panic and worst of all very unmusical and quite an unnatural way of changing voicing,yes even here in Germany.
Is it not now time for Yamaha type demo to be made that really shows if this really is of interest to arranger players.

Gilbert.

Hi Gilbert.
Try following my thread then. You might find it more to your liking. The Audio is also recorded correctly.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum44/HTML/000013.html

Regards
James

I'm simply amazed at the conclusion you and others have made simply watching Tastenpoint play the Lionstracs. The Lionstracs is no different from any other arranger with the exception it has far more real time controls to choose from and can run VST's. There is no need to use the data sliders to change sounds, Tastenpoint obviously felt that was the way he wanted to use them. If you want to use switches, buttones, pedals, or sliders you simply assign them the way you want.

The Lionstracs is no more difficult to use than most arrangers so your presumption that it is seems based on you not actually using the instrument. James videos clearly show that using a Mediastation isn't difficult at all. Check out those videos if you haven't already.

I'm simply amazed at the conclusion you and others have made simply watching Tastenpoint play the Lionstracs. The Lionstracs is no different from any other arranger with the exception it has far more real time controls to choose from and can run VST's. There is no need to use the data sliders to change sounds, Tastenpoint obviously felt that was the way he wanted to use them. If you want to use switches, buttons, pedals, or sliders you simply assign them the way you want.

The Lionstracs is no more difficult to use than most arrangers so presuming that it is based on not actually using the instrument is a mistake. James videos clearly show that using a Mediastation isn't difficult at all. Check out those videos if you haven't already.

[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 04-19-2010).]

Hi James,
Thanks for the link,which I have been following with interest since your first posting,although as can be seen I have yet to make any comments.
I have been waiting to see, what I describe in my initial post as.a Yamaha type demonstration,where different arranger function are seen, used on the fly running seamlessly between the changing of voices,styles,and performances over a period of time as one would expect to see in a live performance situation
It seems to me thar an awful lot of programming is going to be required on the Lionstracs products before this can be achieved,I believe most arranger players would prefer to just press a button or foot pedal and the get the exact sound rhythm and performance data loaded with minimum programming.

Ensnareyou,
Lionstracs is DIFFERENT than its competition by virtue of the fact that it is open and runs VST.which in its self identifies that to get what you want, you must spend considerable time setting up every Part parameter then storing ready for recall at the push of a button, this work must be repeated for each performance stored.
Do traditional arranger players want this? I think Not.
On my conventional arranger i have excellent realistict sounds, Unlimited full programme set ups I can recall at the press of one button and adequate real time controls to enhance these programmes and a easy to use OS, Why would I want be Tweaking rather than Playing.Yes it is only a matter of Choice.

You have every right to be amazed at my conclusions for the same reason i am somewhat surprised at your very defensive post particularly as i have only just stated my opinion,you may not agree with me,but please don't attack because my views differ from yours.
Gilbert.

Hi Gilbert.



If I may say so, please don't just sit on the sidelines waiting for something to happen. If you want to see something specifically just ask because I don't bite

In this specific case what you want to see will never happen because Live Styler does not go from one style to the next without stopping. This has nothing to do with the keyboard, it's the Live Styler program that functions in this way.

Going from sounds to sound, or VSTi HOST to HOST is no problem. That is pretty much instantaneous.



Not at all, if you look at the last video I recorded between all the talking and demonstration parts, I still took a style that was not suitable for use and in under 10 minutes I had reassigned all the parts, settings and volumes.

If I hadn't have been recoding a demo I could have done it in half the time. So really it's not going to take you long at all to assemble a “best of” collection of styles and have them running on the keyboard.

I hope you can also see from the video how very simple it was to do what I did also. Everyone should be able to do this with no learning curve at all.



That maybe the case but you would never think it from reading the forums and all the OS requests and features people are after. Even if it was the case, this still poses a very interesting opportunity for people too. If your ever going to buy a second keyboard then this is by far the ultimate choice. Instantly you would benefit from the right hand sounds and VST HOST, and because you have an arranger to fall back on, you could take your time exploring the arranger in the Mediastation.

Most people here do have more than one keyboard too.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 04-20-2010).]

From your comments I can only conclude you have never actually used or played a Mediastation. Otherwise you'd know that it comes shipped just like any other arranger with sounds, styles, and programs ready to recall at the touch of a button. From your post it also seems you don't deviate from the factory settings and only use what is supplied by the manufacturer which is a shame. I can't remember the last time I purchased a keyboard, synthesizer, or arranger where I ever used only factory settings. Given your statement arrangers wouldn't need any form of editing for sounds, styles, or programs since it seems you want it to do everything exactly as you like right out of the box.

I'm curious which arranger you own that has all the sounds, styles, and programs you need and requires you to never tweak a single thing. That manufacturer must have been a Soothsayer knowing just how to build that keyboard specifically for you.

So James...

Will Livestyler be replaced by a more workable/flexible program that will allow for changes from one style to another without stopping the instrument?

Will Livestyle play On Bass chords like C/G, Fmaj7th/E, Dm/G etc?

Ian

Download the FREE DEMO version, is the totally same version that you can install on MS and Groove: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/livearranger-demo-p-248.html
Run it and then you know the all features that are included.
IF you have a SD2 module, the all ketron styles are sounds mapped correct and sounds very good.

Now James can have the possibility to resampling all ( http://www.extranslator.com/ ) and make a new Giga SD2 soundbank compatible..

No, I'm not downloading anything...now let's try this again, and hopefully my two simple questions will be answered.

So James...
Will Livestyler be replaced by a more workable/flexible program that will allow for changes from one style to another without stopping the instrument?

Will Livestyle play On Bass chords like C/G, Fmaj7th/E, Dm/G etc?

Ian

can ketron or yamaha arrangers play on Bass chords?

becouse if ketron or yamaha can not play on bass chord, then live arranger also can not play on bass chords.

i do not know about live arranger, but i think you can record bass chords on qranger.

for stop style:

on qranger you have 8 intro-8 fill-8 variation-8 end

so, you can save 2 styles in one session.

style1= 4 intro-4 fill-4 variation-4 end
style2= 4 intro-4 fill-4 variation-4 end

so, you can load 1 style but you have 2 styles for use in realtime.

easy or not?!




[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-20-2010).]

Yes, Yamaha arrangers can play On Bass or Bass Inversion, or slash chords...whatever you want to call them.

Will Livestyle play On Bass, Bass Inversion or slash chords like C/G, Fmaj7th/E, Dm/G etc?

Will Livestyler be replaced by a more workable/flexible program that will allow for changes from one style to another without stopping the instrument?

Ian

PS...a simple yes or no answer for each question would suffice.

Hi Ian.



I think looking to replace it would be a bit extreme when it works so well.

You can select the next style and use Note On to trigger the next style almost instantaneous. You don't get that fluid change, but you get to keep the music going.

I'm sure the developer wants to sell copies if his program too be it to lionstracs users or PC users. If simply making the program go from style to style without stopping would increase sales, I'm sure the developer would only be too happy to implement that feature as a top priority.

So rather than replacing it with something else, I think some good communication with the developer would go a long way to making this app to everything you want.



For Live Styler, yes.

For Live Arranger... yes and no.
Yes being that it has this function. I can see it and I can turn it on. No being when I turn it on I do not hear it working. I must point out though that I am only using the demo version of the progarm so I don't know if the reason why it's not working for me is caused by the fact that it's only a demo versions or if indeed there is a bug and it simply deosn't work yet.

Regards
James

i agree with you James,

i think Nobert can create this option to.

he is a good programmer.

The fact that AFG has to even ASK whether Ketron or Yamaha can play ON Bass chords pretty much exposes his ignorance about arrangers in general...

ALL arrangers for pretty much the last ten years or so have been able to play ON bass chords (slash chords, Bass Inversion, whatever you want to call them). Especially MOTL and TOTL arrangers. They are an integral part of music, absolutely essential to performing many different types of songs, and also to having true 'pianostyle' chord triggering. The fact that this BASIC function has been left off the MS since its' inception, and appears to not work correctly even on the third party software style players, relegates its' usefulness as an arranger to the same level as a toy Casio.

It's all well and good to gush about the advanced things it CAN do, but perhaps we ought to be paying more attention to the basic things it CAN'T?

This was Dom's mistake from the beginning. Rather than START with a fully functional arranger, and ADD the VSTi capability, he started with a VSTi player, and tried to shoehorn it INTO an arranger. And failed miserably, I hate to say. If you can't play simple chords like C/E, what's the POINT?

Hi Diki.

The keyboards function is to simply provide you with the platform to run whatever software you want on it seamlessly. Lionstracs are no more responsible for how Live Styler works than how any third party software application works.

If in past times the Bass Inversion function was missing from Live Styler, then back then that was the problem of the developer who wrote that third party application, not Lionstracs. As we can see the developer has included the fuction in Live Styler and it works.

Live Arranger is a different program. It too has the function but when switch on I can't hear the bass inversion. As I said above, this could simply be because it's disabled in the demo version or there is indeed a bug. If its a bug, then a simple bug report will get it fixed. It's not like the function is completely missing.

Either way.... none of this has anything to do with Lionstracs.

Regards
James

Diki,did i said something about Roland or Korg or other manufacturers?

sorry, but I do not talk about products that I've never seen (My first keyboard was a Yamaha). You sometimes talk about things you do not even use or have seen.

Moreover maybe I've ever been a Roland fan more than you are now.


you accuse people only. while you do not know their personalities.

sometimes you think they are thieves..........(remeber you the thread about live arranger on MS)

do you think bass inversion is too difficult to program for domenico and his programmers?
i think not. qranger is software to move forward and not backwards.

OS 1.8 was completely different from lionstracs arranger, If I am not wrong then there was bass inversion. I'm sure this option ever comes back.

I can at least programming styles, but you .............
only talk without having to know anything.

answer this,how many people do you think using bass inversion?

some user turn off because they do not like it on some arrangers!!!!!!!!!!!!!



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-20-2010).]

That's a cop-out, James, and you know it. The MS itself was sold for YEARS without any ON Bass capabilities as an arranger, plain and simple.

Who CARES where the fault lies?

The fault exists. That's all that matters.

It's no good going 'the MS is a great keyboard' if the software you run on it sucks. The keyboard is the gestalt of the hardware AND the software. No-one goes 'the Audya is great hardware, just the software sucks' or 'the T3 has great effects hardware, but the OS makes using it difficult'. They just go 'The Audya sucks' or 'The T3 sucks' (just examples, don't flame me! ).

And if the MS can't do ON Bass chords, either with its' own software or third party software, it isn't a good arranger. Period.

When someone steps up and fixes the issue (why Dom didn't do it years ago beats me), THEN, and only then, will you be able to say it's a good 'arranger'. But until then, excusing the fact that it ISN'T on someone else other than Lionstracs (they are the ones SELLING it, remember) when Lionstracs COULD fix the problem themselves is a cop-out.

You asked the question, sonny...

BTW, have you bothered to notice that AJ finally DID come in and clear up the Ketron styles copyright issue..? Which I was correct about all along? You use Ketron styles without paying for Ketron hardware, you are STEALING them. Plain and simple. Go back and look at your naive comments about the issue before you get all indignant, kiddo...

I don't have to assume anything. Your words spell it out plain and simple.

Bottom line is, you are so busy excusing the MS for missing basic features in existence for years, you sound ridiculous. You are supposed to be screaming at Lionstracs to be fixing this, not excusing their every blunder. Don't you WANT Bass Inversions? Or did you manage to play for years without ever using them? I am starting to believe the latter...

the question was on bass chords:

So for example the Roland VA-Series Bass track for style creation is monophon

while on qranger you can record the bass polyphonic if you want.

but in answer to my question he came with bass inversion.

you misunderstand me again.

you have not seen that Ketron AJ said that it is only ROM styles. if someone buys Ketron styles in .pat format from ketron or third party he is free to use it with ketron hardware or other software arranger. live arranger use .pat format, and there is no copyrights on formats.

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-20-2010).]

What on earth has whether a bass part is polyphonic or not got to do with whether it is capable of playing slash chords...?

It's no wonder I may not be understanding you... You aren't making any sense

And the whole POINT I made in the Ketron thread was about styles NOT paid for. As in 'stolen'. We already talked about this, and I explained it fully. If you can't understand my English, that's not MY fault. I write about as clearly as anyone here.

The style 'format' was NEVER mentioned by me. Format doesn't matter one iota. Style CONTENT does. Perhaps, before you accuse someone of not understanding you, you might try to realize that it MIGHT be because you aren't making any sense in ANY language...

I thought he meant polyphonic chord recording and playback on bass track. on your Roland G70 you only have one bass track for syle (and it is monophon becouse of polyphony).

If I have a question misunderstand, does not necessarily mean that my answer to misunderstand question is also wrong. lol....

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-20-2010).]

There's no logic in that Diki.

That would be like me blaming Microsoft for a feature Extreme Sample Converter doesn't have just because it runs on my PC.

The Inversion feature needed to be implemented by the developer of Live Styler in order to make their product complete.

Which has happened so what's your problem now ?

Regards
James

Diki be careful with your ridiculous language
use.

Sorry to say this. with that language use is only one place YOU diki cAN mAKE SENSE, and that's the zoo FOR YOU.


and if you ever change your behavior read this:
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/021126.html

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-20-2010).]

When people use hardware, James, they tend to bring hardware paradigms to the table. So much is made of how good the MS is, but whenever anything is wrong, suddenly it's the software...

Yu can't have it both ways. Either the MS is a dumb bit of kit that does NOTHING at all, and everything is down to the software (in which case, it becomes a question of whether the hardware is cost effective and needed at all, when MUCH cheaper computers can run the same software), or the OS and associated software IS something to do with the overall instrument, in which case criticizing it for failures past and present is legitimate.

As has been pointed out, do you REALLY think that Dom couldn't have programmed full ON Bass capability into it during the four or five YEARS it was supposed to be an arranger (running on HIS software)? And if not, WHY didn't he do it? It is when ESSENTIAL details get missed so blatantly, like this, that you wonder about whether some of the other things that plague the MS will ever get fixed also, or only those that Dom thinks are important?

It is SO nice and convenient to simply toss off anything he doesn't FEEL like fixing himself on the shoulders of it being someone else's software, but this is the Achilles Heel of the entire 'open' arranger concept. When the entire thing working properly doesn't rest in the hands of ONE team, but in the myriad teams of a myriad of different software entities, often with little regard for how other parts of this mess of worms wants to use THEIR software they designed for THEM... or what schedule they feel like fixing broken parts of the OS (especially when few of them even design with Linux in mind) as things get updated and changed.

Arranger by committee... and none of the committee is talking to anybody else in it.

Integration is the mantra of the arranger. WS's can get away with being far more piecemeal than an arranger. But for an arranger to work, it has to ALL work. Smoothly, easily, integratedly. I'm still not seeing that. You have issues with this, issues with that, issues with something else. But you can't go to ONE place and ask for it all to be fixed. Which you CAN with a closed arranger.

At the moment, live use of VSTi's, especially in an arranger, everything ready to go at the drop of a hat paradigm, is still pretty low on most VSTi designers' list of priorities. There's a lot to be said FOR open keyboards. But I still feel that the open 'arranger' needs a LOT more advancement by softwrae designers at ALL ends of the spectrum. From OS design (Dom and Linux/Wine's dept.), to VSTi design, to style playing design.

Bottom line is, someone calls up and says they need a four hour all arranger (no SMF's) gig from you tomorrow. Do you grab the MS, or do you grab the PA2X? (you can't have BOTH...)

For all the videos, for all the excusing whatever faults it has on this that or the other software developer (but never the MS itself), I bet you grab the Korg...

Hi Diki.



If you have been following the threads in the Lionstracs section of the forums you would see that when there is a problem the responsibility to fix this is directed that the right people.

Lionstracs responsibility is to provide the platform and deliver the seamless integration through their custom software. That is the full scope of what Liosntracs are expected to provide and if that is compromised in anyway, then those issues need to be dealt with by Lionstracs directly.

This is exactly what is been happening and we have all been talking very openly over in the Lionstracs section of the forum. Domenico has been great in responding.

So I'm sorry but I don't see things taking place like you see them. Things have been extremely productive actually and the Mediastation is just a hair away from being every single thing ever promised.



That's not how it works at all. Try to think of a Lionstracs keyboard in terms of modules you can link together. Lionstracs provide the platform for these modules to sit on, and the means for them to communicate with each other. They also built a few of these modules themselves that offer functionality to the keyboard but that's the scope of Lionstracs responsibility. You then have all these other third party modules like Linux Sampler, Wine, VSTHOST, Live styler and any VSTi you install which can do all manner of other functions but being third party modules, they have nothing to do with lionstracs and so if you have a problem with them, then no point blaming Liosnracs for other peoples work.

So Linux is the OS and the foundation, Lionstracs custom OS runs on top of Linux in order to provide the platform and some of Lionstracs own modules. Finally you have the third part modules that make up the rest.

See ?..... You can't just point the finger Liosntracs for all responsibility.



Haven't got a clue to be honest. Is it even important any more ? It's all past history and things have moved on quite a tremendous amount overall.




Well he can only fix what's under his control. This is the nature of an open system and the entire point of the concept. It's simply logic.



Silly. How many programs have you installed on your PC ? Do the developers of all those different programs communicate with each other >

Exactly... no they don't.



Be specific. What are you referring to ?
I'm not aware of any issue in the arranger software that needs to be fixed.



Well just look at how far things have come since this time last year. Right now there is nothing in the world stopping you from going gigging with the keyboard as an open arranger.

Progress is made by positivity and constructive efforts.



Honestly, I have grown to be so comfortable with the Mediastation that if I had a 4 hour program of all arranger playing, I would use the Medaistation just to have the mega sound of Giga files with me. There's a level of pleasure that's impossible to describe when your preforming with massive and super realistic sounds like that.

Regards
James

+1 James!! Well said.

D

James, you've had the MS for how many weeks now? I could have done four hours on the G70 the day I bought it...

And the POINT (as I said) about Dom's refusal to deal with on bass chords only emphasizes that Dom fixes what he WANTS to fix, not what the users of the arranger needed. And here you are, saying that, once again, the MS is 'on the cusp' of finally fulfilling its' 'potential', blah, blah, blah... You have to understand, we've been hearing the EXACT same thing for at least five years.

I've been reading about your issues with the super low latency of the Linux core and how many VSTi's can't handle it (don't think I don't keep tabs on what is going on) and, as far as I am concerned, this thing looks no more ready to run than it did five years ago. But I keep hearing the same excuses.

If a keyboard's greatest strength is also its' greatest weakness, where is the advancement in that? If every aspect of an integrated arranger lies under the control of several different and ultimately competing interests, what is the likelihood that they will EVER all get on the same page..? Every time Linux gets changed, there may be issues. Every time Wine gets changed, there may be issues. Every time a software VSTi (originally designed for Windows) is updated, there may be issues. No-one is taking the rest of the picture into mind when they make changes.

This isn't what I'm looking for, when it comes to a piece of gear I might base making my living around, I'll tell you...

Just tell me, James... how long IS it going to take to work up those four hours?

Are you talking about Windows?
Windows95>windows98>Windows2000>WindowsXP-SP1> XP-SP2>XP-SP3>Vista> windows7>...how many years we have more to waiting untill Microsoft can release a STABLE+working OS?
Do you think that the all VSTi are there full working nice too??

Are you able to running the native Gigastudio3 and also 1 simple standard ASIO host?? Or more shame...rund one ASIO host/DAW and then tell me IF you are able to play one standard Mp3 with VLC, mediaplayer...
IF windows is so perfect, why then nobody there is not able to running 2 or more application at once?

So..if the bigger Microsoft company is NOT able to release a definitive and stable OS, it mean that they still are working for continue fix the OS too, same for Linux, Apple and so on. http://www.driversupdate.org/asio-drivers.htm

IF you don't like to follow at the new PC technology, just remain to play your old embedded G-70, T3, PAX,Audya...just look inside and you will see the same hardware recycled from 10-15 years...

Now is released out the USB3...do you think that the all device there will working perfect? Again we have to waiting that the all company fix and release the new drivers too.
Is a compromise..IF you choose one Open system you have also to follow the all upgrade issue, if you choose one standard embedded system, you will remain stopped at the same pont for many years.

The question can be the same...why to buy the new Apple Ipad when already give ton of others and less cheap possibility?

James..same for you...why you have buy the Iphone where you can made the same calls with a simple 20 USD Nokia? I know... now you like browser Internet on the MS connected with the Iphone USB network..

Anyway...enjoy what you play.

Hi Diki.



Your being childish now.
It takes me months to put together a program because my standards require me to push the technology right to the edge of all it has to offer and to sequence heavily in the process to accomplish what I hear in my mind.

Those are my standards and I will always try push both the technology and my own abilities to the limit. Simple as that.

I couldn't do what you do simply because I find it unacceptable.



Simple fact.... none of what your talking about is applicable now. Progress is only made from being positive and productive. I don't care about past issue that don't apply any more.

That's called progress.

Everything you have been saying on this forum for years regarding the Meidastation is pretty much irrelevant because of the progress that has been made.



You have no patience. If a problem is found it must be discussed and analyzed. I have two problems with VSTi's and if you had actually followed the two threads you would see that Domencio researched this and found there is a memory leak in wine, and in the process a fix was already found for this issue, and he was even after asking 64 Studio to send him a new build for testing.

So in the space of a few days we went from finding a problem to having the solution in the hands of Domenico for testing. That's bloody impressive.



There are none, but like pretty much everything else you can say about the keyboard, none of it applies any more. Things have really moved on that much in the space of a year.

I just wish you would listen to what I'm saying and open your mind because could be your ultimate dream machine of all times. I really mean that.



I had hoped you would have understood that concept from the way I explained things regarding modules. As I said, Linux is the foundation, Lionstracs custom software is the actual platform that the modules communicate through.

So regardless of all the variables, the entire point of Liosntracs software is to make communication seamless between all all the modules.



Being paranoid about what MAY happen is a wast of ones time. Sure I could wake up dead in the morning



That's because your afraid of it and you underestimate your own abilities. You have got lazy and found contentment in just hiding behind someone else's programming. I don't mean for that to be rude or insensitive, I'm just saying it because I feel you need a kick in the arse and to cop on to yourself.

If you don't push yourself you learn nothing.



If you don't have pride in what you do, how can I make you understand why it will take me months of work ?

Regards
James

Diki

Time of closed kbd is gone.

Now you need to enjoy with open one.

You will never be satisfied with what we done with our machines.

I know that you will play on it one day.
All compliment to you. You advise what is wrong and how much time we need to spend on it. You never test it really as need to be. You are only talking.

I spent my time only with making of my sound bank and I can play with it now.

Styles are even more simple. And I know that even you are using 20 styles maximum. Other is only your combination with different sounds.

People who are listning us at gigs are not interesting how really perfect is sound kbd. We - musician want more.

Evangelize all you want. I've said, many times before, I'm no stranger to what software based sounds can do for you. But I'm also no stranger to what they CAN'T do for you.

Currently, they can't substitute for an arranger, at least not in the way that 99% of arranger users use them for. You want to use an MS as an arranger, you had better be prepared for a VERY long, steep and tiresome process to even achieve the level of performance of an OOTB closed arranger. No-one has YET shown me anything otherwise. Until the open arranger presents me with the ease of use, live, as a closed arranger, all the extra stuff is superfluous. James, I could be gigging on my K2500, Triton, and a bunch of other gear. But I don't... Want to know why?

Because they take FOREVER to make sound good. My G70 sounds as good OOTB as the K2500 does after a week of work. For each song. Every minute spent programming is a minute LESS spent gigging. There is a question of diminishing returns. I don't know about you, but MY audience is FAR more interested in what I'm playing, than what I'm playing ON...

In other words, my G70's piano is really pretty good. Sure, Ivory MIGHT be a bit better, but my audience wouldn't care one jot if I played brilliantly on the G70 or an MS running Ivory. NOT ONE BIT... For 'live', there IS such a thing as 'good enough'. You want to get REALLY purist about it, nothing in the MS is 'good enough' either, compared to the real thing. Not piano, not organ, nothing. Sure, it's closer, but it isn't REAL... So, at some point, you have to make a value judgment. Is the expense and prodigious effort of programming an MS worth the slight increase in realism of the sounds?

Nothing I've heard yet makes me believe so.

In the studio, you don't NEED the integration of the MS, because you tend to lay things down one at a time, anyway. And live, until this thing is programmed to offer the same degree of ease that a closed arranger offers, the improvement in sound isn't worth it, IMO. You keep making out like I'm lazy... Far from it. My studio stuff compares to anyone's, tracks I am on are on the radio, TV, you name it. Major labels, blah, blah, blah.

But playing out live is another thing. My day is busy enough already, without having what appears to be WEEKS of preparation (or more apparently, months or years, from what I've heard so far ) before you can even show your face in public. I'm sorry, but everything I've heard so far from people actually GIGGING the MS has been pretty much rubbish. Are they ALL simply bad musicians, or is it a LOT harder to integrate the MS into an arranger than everyone makes out..?

D [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img]


[img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/confused.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-22-2010).]

D I K [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] I [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img]


[img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/confused.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

maybe domenico can use new name for new MS generation:

LIONSTRACS MS-DIKI X76




[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-22-2010).]

You know, for someone SO willing to talk and talk about the MS's strengths, how come there's so little example from you, AFG?

Smilies are no substitute for a recording of what you actually perform live on a gig. Are you willing to back up your assertions? Or like so many others, suddenly shy when it comes to providing any example to back up your rhetoric? If the proof is SO obvious to you, how come you won't provide it to us?

Post something even a FRACTION as good as a closed arranger, or give it up... Show us how good it is, stop telling us about it.

you have no appreciation for people. it's not about the MS or other tool here, but how you approach people. James has played in a short time demos. but you have no appreciation for it.

We have a saying in our country:

The best response against an to ignorant people, is the answer of silence.
a man is respectful and keep secret his mistakes when he speaks less.but the more he opens his mouth the more mistakes he makes known.

sorry but you talk a lot. Every time you talk about something, i see how well people have thought to make that saying.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-22-2010).]

Hi Diki,



And it's for reasons like that is why I said that you were afraid of the Mediastation and you underestimate your own abilities. You have gotten lazy Diki and there's simply no excuse for this. Not when you do have the ability do take something like the Medaistation and with LITTLE effort turn it into your dream machine.

You just need a good kick in the arse and to cop on to yourself. Nothing I have demonstrated in any of the the video's I've uploaded is complicated when measured to the standards I think you are at. You could easily gather up a collection of the best styles around from all makes and models of keyboards, dump them into the Mediastation and spend 5 to 10 minutes on each style remapping all the sounds and balance until they are exactly how you like them.

This will automatically give you a sound that will match any arranger keyboard by default but instead of that being all it's got sound wise like all closed arrangers, you can expand on this over time as you see fit and use ultra realistic sounds from Giga , AKAI, VSTi Libraries or whatever else takes your fancy.

As I said in other posts, there is a level of pride you get from doing all this and to play with ultra realistic sounds that are far beyond that of closed keyboards is quite a feeling. I don't mean to just compare one to the other, I mean simply forget the limitations of a closed keyboard and to load up 1GB Piano that's so detailed that you can even hear the felt on the hammers.

It's pretty freaking exciting actually and it really makes you put the passion into your music.

Seriously mate, you have no idea what your missing by sticking your head into that G70 of yours. Music is a passion, not just something you do to make a few bucks.

Regards
James

and DIKI Can even have a good and great combination of G-70 and MS.

i mean it.

Regardless of how realistic the sounds are, aren't you limited to some degree by having to use a keyboard as a controller. Some playing techniques for other instruments are pretty hard to duplicate with a keyboard. Plus, don't you need to THINK (and phrase) like a seasoned guitarist or sax player or.....what have you. The only decent/authentic solos I've ever heard on 'synths' was when it was imitating other keyboard instruments. JMO, of course.

chas

Hi cgiles .



By default the sheer size of the sounds will instantly make the superior to that of a closed keybaord. I have a Guitar sound for example that's 4 times the size of the Tyros 3 entire ROM and the detail is simply breathtaking. Fair enough, this is premium content I paid big bucks for or but still... at least I can pay for the sounds and used them on the Medaistation.

Even if I just play the sound like a keyboard player, it still sounds infinitely superior to a sound on a closed keyboard.

So, I'm not trying to say it will sound exactly like a real guitar player like this, I'm saying here that it will simply sound superior in every way imaginable to the guitar sounds on any closed keyboard.

To go beyond that and emulate an actual guitarist then Yes, I will have to load a Multi Layered sound and play it a certain way.

This is no problem and it's very easy to do once you play with the sound and remember what way you need to control it.

Take a look at the second video I uploaded for example on Loading Giga Files. In there I play a Scottish Pipe and a Ullean Pile sound straight. Both are complex instruments and I think I pulled them off quite well.

Regards
James

Hello James;

Your statement below interests me. Would you be able to clarify and elaborate a bit. From the video the GM sound in the styles are just average. I understand that one can remap teh styles using other GM sounds. When remapping sound can one draw from the sound libraries that are avaliable ( i.e. Giga , AKAI, VSTi Libraries ) and insert them into the styles? For instance there is a style that you were playing in a video that has a strumming guitar in it that does not sound very realistic. Could one use a much better strumming acoustic or electric guitar and insert it in place of the GM guitar, thus elevating the overall realism of the style?

The above would also apply to various styles in Audya or Tyros, Korg extra that have accompaniment styles that draw upon their particular sound engines to create the parts in the styles--i.e. like the acoustic and electric strumming guitars, big band brass blasts, etc...

Would there be a limit to how many external high quality sounds one could import to the styles? Would it tax the memory or processor
or take too long to load in a live situations.

Thanks;
BN

James Quote;

" You could easily gather up a collection of the best styles around from all makes and models of keyboards, dump them into the Mediastation and spend 5 to 10 minutes on each style remapping all the sounds and balance until they are exactly how you like them.

This will automatically give you a sound that will match any arranger keyboard by default but instead of that being all it's got sound wise like all closed arrangers, you can expand on this over time as you see fit and use ultra realistic sounds from Giga , AKAI, VSTi Libraries or whatever else takes your fancy. "

Hi BlkNotes



Yes, the stock GM Library that comes with the keyboard are basically sampled sounds from other arrangers and the odd VSTi here and there likely passed through Extreme Sample Converter.

So while GM Library is pretty good by normal keyboard standards, it is still very typical of what you would expect from a closed keyboard and not any sort of measure of what an open keyboard can do.

This is likely the case for compatibility reason.



Yes, and this is a key point behind the keyboard. Take just the stock GM library for example, if you go through that replacing the sounds with extremely high quality premium content then automatically everything that uses the GM bacnk benefits.




With any technology there is always some upper limit but you would have to create one monster GM Library to put the system under any strain. All the sounds are streamed from the HDD, so even if your GM library is really big, only a fraction of that is actually loaded to memory.

So I'll put it to you this way, I haven't seen any memory issues yet and I only have 4GB in my Mediastation. You can install a lot more RAM into the newer Groove Series too.



There will be no loading times if you insert your sounds into the GM bank. During the bootup process the sounds in the GM bank are loaded to RAM so that once the system is up and running, the sounds are instantly available.

So again you would have to assemble one monster GM library to tax the system.

Regards
James

Sorry, James, but I am SO far past GM/GS, it isn't even funny... Maybe ten years ago, you could have substituted one GM kit for another, done some rudimentary balancing, and you would have been good to go. But today's modern drumkits, even in those lowly closed arrangers, are FAR past simple GM/GS. There are, for starters, about four different samples per note in even my G70. So, you have to match whatever substitute kit to carefully cross-switch at the same point, to roughly the same type samples. No small task, just that. Then there are non-standard 'ghost' notes, ruffs, tom-tom flams (some velocity switched, some on separate notes) and a host of extra sounds well outside the GM/GS standard. That's WHY modern arrangers sound so good... there's MUCH more detail and nuance available. But it comes at the cost of standardization.

Trust me, it's NOT laziness making me reluctant to do this. It's EXPERIENCE. I have taken DAYS trying to get a Korg groove to work on a Roland. They don't have similar samples, they don't have similar note maps, and they don't have similar crossover points. Korg (as you well know) have some SERIOUSLY groovy beats, especially in that modern, 'smooth' jazz format. But go in and take a look at the kit, at the samples. NOTHING like GM/GS whatsoever. Which is why it is such a PITA to translate.

I'm sorry, but perhaps it is YOU that is the lazy one? My standards for style translations must be MUCH higher than yours! I want nothing less than something that sounds AT LEAST as good as the original. And preferably a LOT better. And, I'm sorry, but I just don't see anything other than legacy, one sample per note, simple styles being easy to translate.

I am, of course, MORE than willing to WATCH you prove me wrong. But you had better start to take a serious look at how modern TOTL arrangers are voiced in the drumkit, just for starters. If you think finding a good substitute in a GIGA soundset is going to be easy, you are sadly mistaken. GM/GS is history. That is a good thing for us with closed arrangers. But bad news for those of us trying to make TOTL translations...

My G70 has about 50 drumkits in it, all of which have at least SOME kind of non-standard mapping. For translated styles to work properly, please explain how it is going to be easy to provide one to one mapping, including velocity cross switches, for 50 drumkits...

I didn't think so...

You honestly have barely scratched at the surface of coming up with the sounds to do justice to a complete closed arranger's soundset. This isn't a case of having ONE good acoustic drumset. It is having a whole Roland arranger's worth of them. Oh, and a whole Korg arranger's worth of them. And a whole Yamaha arranger's worth of them. Etc., etc.. They are all different, and all completely incompatible without major surgery. Kick your OWN arse before you take a swing at mine...

Hi Diki
The G70 drum sets are nothing more than stripped down Fantom kits, all of which are available to buy.
You purchase Kontakt 4 or Battery 3 (Better still Komplete 6) then load in you fantom drum kits, load in your converted Roland styles, and re-map them to use the Fantom Drum Kits, Job Done.
What’s difficult in that?
Other boards at best probably have about 3 layers of drum sample, whereas VSTi have 10, 12, or more, so one of them will be close enough as to not matter, the rest of the sounds you mention are also available, so it’s just a case of loading them in, and mapping them to the appropriate notes etc. (Which with your experience would probably take about 10 -15 minutes per style)

Bill

interesting thread ! I have listened to the demo's on you tube of the MS that james very kindly has provided. The entire advantage the MS potentially has over an arranger has always been the argument that it can facilitate the best sounds commmercialy available and using the MS platform/os enable the user to readily manipulate those sounds just like a closed system arranger.

Secondly that converting existing styles from other keyboards is relatively easy to do to sound as good as or better than the instrument it was converted from.

Most arranger players basically use their instruments to play styles and rely quite heavily on functions like one touch settings to navigate through sounds on the keyboard live and seamlessly during a performance

I have a couple of questions.

1. how easy is it to use different vsts from different products in one style and then switch to another style using another set of VST's and can this be demonstrated?
2. How easily can one touch settings be establsihed within one style again using various VSTs be done and can this be demonstrated.

James you have the PA1X i believe. Can you take a PA1X style convert it and play it on the MS using the best sounds you feel are available to demonstrate the superior quality of style once converted and tweaked on the MS next to the same style played on the PA1X and give us an accurate record of how long it took you?

I have listened to all the MS demo's including James' and with the greatest respect nothing i have heard sounded better than what could be produced on an existing closed arranger and most sounded considerably worse.

The test i am suggesting would settle the matter once anbd for all for me. Perhaps for many others too.

[This message has been edited by Spalding 4 (edited 04-23-2010).]

It happened that i agree with Diki on this, thats correct James but what if Microsoft
advertised it product that thats actually what that product does? Converting Samples?
Then responsibility falls on Microsoft as in here it falls on LionTracks it self.
This is advertised for years as an arranger and has nothing to do with devellopers,
it has to do with LionTracks, when i see something online and it says COFFEE MACHINE
i dont hold responsible the guy that made the power cord or the pot, i hold the factory that
bears its name on the machine, they sold it to me. LionTracks advertised this is an Arranger
and that means they have to take full responsibility for that, the guy that wrote StyleWorks
has nothing to do with that. If LionTracks advertised it as an arranger then they should've
taken care of that as customers would expect them to do so, come up with their own Arranger
software implementation or whatever it is. I cannot take your sounds and sell them to customers
while at the same time few notes are missing in the KMP and me telling the customers:
''Hey, its James's is fault, he didnt put them in there'' while i charge them for that.

Hi Nedim.

If I were to apply your logic to your own products and customers it would go like this.

1: Customer buys your sample library.
2: Customer has a problem with the library and contacts you for support.
3: You tell the customer to contact KORG and don't offer them any support just because KORG advertised the keyboard as having a sampler.

That's pretty much what your saying here mate.

Regards
James.

Welli think you are correct which can also apply to LionTracks...my point is that when
MS is advertised as an Arranger whole responsibility
falls on LionTracks, customers dont care who
wrote the Style player...

Hi Spalding.



Impossible as it does not work like that at all. If you download Live Styler you can see how it works yourself in detail, but basically to give you a quick idea you have to assign your sound engine(s) to Live Styler in the setup page.

So it's sort of a global setting that is not altered by simply selecting another style. With that in mind the ideal way to use it then is to simply connect it to a killer bread and butter VSTi(s) that will give you all you need.

My 2 cents.... building up the GM Giga bank is by far the best way to go. If you get a new library that has some fantastic sounds, delete the GM sounds and insert your new sounds into the relevant places where the GM sounds were.

This will give you an automatic improvement across the system, even if you play a midi file your new sounds will be used.



You have the limitations I just mentioned for the styles above, but for the right hand you can jump between VSTi's all you like. You also have a COMBI mode with can contain 8 part sounds, or you have the performance mode.

So there's quite a few options available to you.



No because I haven't done what I suggested above regarding the replacement GM sounds. I don't have any problem using the Arranger with the sounds that came with the keyboard. If I load a Pa1X style into it, it's just going to sound like a Tyros 2 as thats what makes up the bulk of the sounds.

My own premium content / Giga Library has only need installed onto the keyboard as individual sounds so I can use them under a Sequencer. I have very little interest in the arranger functions for my own personal needs.

If you want to hear the keyboard using my sounds, you need to listen to the likes of video 2 and 7, as well as the 2 mp3's I uploaded.



It disturbs me to see you say that after the sounds I used in the second video for example. No closed keyboard has sounds even close to that quality. There is a massive and extremely noticeable difference.

Here's a demo of the other sounds from that library. http://www.irishacts.com/lionstracs/worldwinds.mp3

Regards
James

Hmmmm..... I get where your coming from, but the argument Diki and I were talking about at the time was to do with the Bass Inversion.

The keyboard itself always had an arranger function and Liosntracs did fully integrate the controls on the keyboard with Live Styler.

The responsibility of this intergration to work was Lionstracs, but the actual functions of Live Styler can only rest in the hands of the actual developer.

Not that any of this matters any more as the developer did add the bass inversion function.

Regards
James

The thing is James, the MS was never REALLY promoted as an arranger.

It was always a VST and media workstation running Linux, that JUST happened to have a style engine included. Running the Qranger software provided by a 3rd party Linux developer.

That fact that others here have decided it is an Arranger, and therefore it should operate 100% like all the closed arrangers, is something of their own creation. Probably because it ties in nicely with their own very narrow, and blinkered opinions.

Those bleating for demos of this function (even though it is NOT the apex of the keyboards role) are the very same people quick to preclude themselves from providing ANY demos to support THEIR arguments.

The recent spats over the guitars on the Audya threads being a good example.

Some just believe they are too high and mighty I think, but I always say the one who complains loudest is the one who can actually do it the least. And as for other examples of people playing here, well ANYONE can doctor up an audio file. In quite a few of the demos I have heard there are plenty of times this has happened.

Some folks must have three arms, but more likely they did not edit it properly to remove telltale signs of re-editing and multi-tracking. Anyone can record multiple tracks, severely edit and THEN present the work as a "one take, one pass" recording!!! LOL, what total tosh. The minute someone says it is a one-take, I don't even bother listening as it will most likely be a doctored recording to make them seem better than they really are..But I digress

That style engine was then augmented by the LiveStyler and then the LiveArranger, but again the MS was NOT an arranger, nor was it promoted as such.

Lionstracs added and updated the arranger modules more as an add-on for those people who wanted an arranger function, (but who will never buy one, much like those whinging about the Audya but have NO intention of buying one) but who had no idea about how to actually set it up and run it.

So of course those same people THEN complain it is a lousy arranger.....Most of the time so they can feel smug and superior thinking THEY have the best keyboard.

Be like buying a house next to a factory, then complaining about the noise.

No, James, give up, these people here are the proverbial brick wall. And even if you have a win, they will only try and nitpick something else, to try and justify their own small and, really, insignificant opinions.

Dennis

Bill, sorry, but it makes NO SENSE whatsoever buying an open arranger, then using closed arranger samples just so styles translate. I've already GOT something that sounds just as good as a G70.... TWO G70's!

The whole POINT of an open arranger is to use sounds that are BETTER than what you already have. If you have to clone an arranger's sounds (or its' equivalent WS) just to make translations work, might as well use the original!

I'm talking about BFD-like quality drums. Not someone's half-arsed attempt at cloning some other keyboard's drumkit...

Thing that worries me so much is how 'theoretical' everyone's answers are... it seems only too apparent that no-one, despite some of you having had an MS for quite some time, has actually got around to really DOING any of this stuff. You would have thought, by now, that someone would have said 'yes, I translate a LOT of T3, PA2X, E80 etc. styles, here's how I do the mapping, and here's what they sound like... amazingly better than the original, no?' but all anyone offers is a 'you OUGHT to be able to do it like this...' but no-one seems to have DONE IT.

Just once, I'd like an MS user to speak from actual experience. Seems like nobody has ever tried to make the MS live up to its' 'potential', simply content to crow about the potential without finding out for themselves what level of workload achieving this 'potential' actually is...

The whole thought of using a GM soundset is so utterly laughable, I have no idea why anyone offers it. Even a quite modest arranger nowadays doesn't have just ONE sound under the capital PC#. You look in the PC#5, there isn't ONE Rhodes sound. There are dozens of different ones. You look under PC#66, there isn't ONE alto sax, there are dozens of them. All different. There are dozens of different drumkits. And, if the styles are well made, they use all these different sounds. And trying to replace them with just ONE Giga GM sound is not going to make a translation work very well. The original style creator played one sax sound completely differently to another (he did if he's any good, anyway!), and running them through the same sound is going to compromise his performance.

Any soundbank used to run the style section on the MS had better be as varied and well programmed as the original you are trying to translate, otherwise you end up with (as I have heard on pretty much most of the translated styles I've heard) basically a pretty poor substitute for the real thing. Sure, the individual sounds MIGHT be a bit better, but the whole thing doesn't hang together, and just basically sounds cobbled together, which the original, for all its' lesser sounds, certainly DOESN'T...

So you've heard the Mediastation play back sample files and they weren't on par with your closed keyboard factory sounds? You've got to be kidding. Take a listen to any of the East West Symphonic samples and if your closed keyboard can play one sound that's remotely close in quality you'll be damned lucky. The Mediastation can play these as well as others with ease. Try that on your closed system.

Give the following sound demo a listen and then show me one sample from a closed system that is comparable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIveoBxnQZY



[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 04-23-2010).]

ensnare you and James its my fault , i apologise ,i did not make myself clear . I meant as an arranger. I took it for granted that this was what we were talking about as i have not nor am i questioning the MS as a workstation. I have heard great sequenced tracks on a casio keyvboards but when you play a style suddenly you realise you are playing a casio so sequnced tracks dont matter to me. Just for clarity i will say it again. I am sure the MS works like a workstation well. What concerns me is why is it when the one example i have ever asked for which is a demo of the MS playing kick ass arranger styles BETTER THAN A CLOSED SYSTEM ARRANGER , all i get is links to sequences or software from companies that are not even remotely connected with the Mediastation or just plain sequenced music ??? Where are the arranger style demos ??????????? The more the question gets avoided or ignored the more i smell a rat ..... Ensnare you, you have an MS could you send me a demo of the MS using a style of your choice that as far as you are concerned is better than the Closed keyboard it was copied from and do an AB side by side test? This is not rocket science or at least it should not be according to the claims of MS users like good your good self.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 04-23-2010).]

Spalding if you can wait for a couple of weeks, I will do something re a style using giga sounds and or VST sounds.

When I had my MS, I had NO issues or operational problems with any other part than the arranger. Well maybe apart form 3rd party drivers like the JACK which crashed a bit

The new Live Arranger provided by Norbert Stellborg looks like it might be far better than Live Styler (of which I have the Gold + version which also will run natively Roland/Ketron styles) on the Media Station.

Dennis

PS: I am like James in that,live, I will be using it as a solo instrument, or with 3-4 part backing tracks. But I will also set up for the odd style so it will help me there as well.

cheers Dennis !!

[
Hello Ensare you, IrishActs, Others;

I may be wrong but I don't think that Diki is complaining about the right hand sounds generated using Giga samples or Vst, or at least I not. They are good. I think the point of contention is the quality of sound coming from the styles in the arranger. What I am trying to understand is if I can remap those Giga samples Akai files, Vst etc.. to the GM/GS banks so that the Mediasations current GM sound bank can be greatly improved. For instance, take a high quality guitar sample from a Vst or giga sample (electric and acoustic) and remap it to the Mediastations Guitar GM sound set so that an excellent quality strumming guitar can be used in the styles ( i.e. similar to the G-70, Tyros, Audya strumming guitar styles).

Diki states that it can't be done because it is not just a simple GM/GS remap but a more complicated process that requires ---"There are, for starters, about four different samples per note in even my G70. So, you have to match whatever substitute kit to carefully cross-switch at the same point, to roughly the same type samples. No small task, just that. Then there are non-standard 'ghost' notes, ruffs, tom-tom flams (some velocity switched, some on separate notes) and a host of extra sounds well outside the GM/GS standard. That's WHY modern arrangers sound so good... there's MUCH more detail and nuance available."

While IrishActs states that a simple remap can be done, Diki does not seem to think the end results will be a style that is as good as the current TOTL arrangers.

Spalding posed a request to Irishacts, but he stated that what Spalding was asking could not be done.

So I am confused as to the fact, can it be done, and will it sound the same or hopefully better then the current crop of TOTL arranger styles.

Perhaps if IrichActs or someone could do this with one or two styles to show others the effect that such a remapping can make on the quality of the style in the mediastation. I think that would assist many members here that are unsure of the arranger portion of the keyboard.

Again I don't think there is a point of contention with the solo voices in the right hand.

Thank-you for your help
BN

Hello Miden;

Your proposal above would be a great help !!!

I understand that Irishacts and yourself primarliy use the right hand sounds, which I believe the mediasation has proven itself in.

There are many here who depend on the styles for their playing and these are important to them and to the keyboard they are playing. I beleive there are a number of member here that would like to not only use the quality right hand voices, but would like the arranger portion of the mediastation ( i.e. styles) to match the quality of the right hand voices and also to be on par with or even better then the current Top level arrangers styles from Roland G-70/E-80/Tyros 3 /Audya/ Pa2xpro

Thanks;
BN

Yes sir, Dennis! That's great news...I'm tickled you'll be gracing us with a style demo.

Now we'll finally get to hear what that baby will do.

Thank you,

Ian

No worries Ian I will probably also purchase the full rights to the Live Arranger so there should be no restrictions on what I can edit and save.

dennis

Hi BlkNotes
Convert another manufactures style to your keyboard, and then edit the sounds etc. to suit your requirements.
If it works, you have a great style to add to your collection, if not, then you discard it.

The same applies to the MS, with the only difference being you have access to a greater number of sounds, (Thus making it easier to find a sound to suit) and of much higher quality. (If you’re using VSTi, then you a talking at least 24 bit 96 KHz rather than the now antiquated 16 bit 44 KHz (CD Quality) which is close on 30 years old now)

The layers Diki mentions are of no relevance, as all VSTi have a far greater number of layers then any closed keyboard. (Having multiples of layers means there will always be one that matches the limited layers of the closed versions)

The point is though, is that it is a do it yourself job, as there has not yet been enough Open keyboards sold to make it worthwhile for a style creator, to create bespoke styles for them (Chicken & Egg here)

Also consider this; if the OOTB styles of closed arrangers are so good, why it is that pretty much everybody on these forums edits them. (Surly if their top notch then there would be no need to) and members like Diki go at lengths to emphasize how the Roland’s Make up tools allow him to do this.

Another point to remember is; how I set up a converted style, will be totally different to the next person, and so will probably only suit me and not anybody else, so hands on is the only way to test. (As Diki says, if you want the original, buy the keyboard it’s on)

Basically if you want great styles out the box, buy a closed keyboard, if however you wish to personalise to the hilt, (So that you can become truly unique) then get an open keyboard.

Hope this clears things up

Bill

You know it is interesting to hear Diki talk about the MS and how having to tweak and edit is not what should be required to use the keyboard.

But hear him talk about the Audya you have to wonder if it is the same person talking.

There's a big difference between HAVING to tweak and adjust EVERY style you use, and being unable to tweak and adjust every style. And BOTH these things are completely unacceptable, at least to ma. A style should work and sound close to perfect when you start it for the first time... but THEN you should be able to alter it to something that sounds very DIFFERENT (go from sticks to brushes, slap bass to acoustic, etc.) to add variety to your style choices.

My G70 makes this almost a 'one button' process, and the mapping is already DONE.

In fairness, for what I want to do with an arranger (don't forget, for home and studio, I already HAVE a VSTi rig that suffices for my needs in a non-live situation) the Audya starts out as a FAR better prospect. At least I'm not faced with WEEKS (to months, to years! ) of prep work before I can gig with it.

Once again, all the refutations of my points are theoretical. No-one is going 'listen to THIS!'. They are simply telling me how easy it OUGHT to be... Proof positive they have never actually done it themselves. When you hear 'in a few WEEKS I can show you this' but then they tell you it takes a half an hour to do (mind you, you repeat half an hour for every style you use - how much time is THAT for all of you? For me, that would be a LONG time!)...

All it's going to take (all it has EVER taken) is for someone to simply DO IT, let me listen to the results (play the original, then the GIGA edit) and tell me truthfully how long it took them to do that ONE. I can figure out the rest myself. Start with a SERIOUSLY good ROM style, Korg, Roland, Yamaha, whatever, then let's just HEAR all this.

Enough talk...

I cant really understand his point either...if 20-30 min to tweak a style is a lot of time
i dont even know now what he means by tweaking, maybe just lowering the volume
on his GREAT G70 which everything is done with ONE BUTTON task...ahahahahahaha.
But in MOST peoples world if tweaking a style dont take 30 min then you dont know
what you are doing...tweaking means exactly that, spending some time with the style.

Its a lot of time to spend per style and you might end up with an acceptable result like most style conversions are after much tweaking , maybe even more than 30 mins per style. However thats not the issue. what we are waiting for is one style conversion that sounds better than the original it came from . Show me how you did it and how long you took to do it on the MS . Then we will discuss why it might be a daunting prospect for gigging musicians like Diki or not as the case may be .

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 04-25-2010).]

If I take a style right now and remap it, it will sound exactly like another closed keyboard because that's what the sound source is. Sounds from closed keyboards.

I've already done this and you can see the end results in Video 7. It takes no more than 5 minutes to tweak a style. So, is there anything wrong with what you head in that video ?

Sounds good to me and exactly what I would expect to hear from a typical closed keyboard.

If you want to hear it surpassing a closed keyboard then you will have to wait. To surpass a closed keyboard a new sound source from VSTi's needs to be routed to the styles. I've already started this process and have just finished converting NI Bandstand to Giga format.

Regards
James

I agree with you. I've long ago said that if MS users has better giga library,they most just create a killer GM/GS giga format sound bank. You will see how amazing good your styles sounds.

existing GM/GS bank for style created by Trosa sounds good but it is just feeling tyros2.

and to be honest, a Roland VA-76 has much better sound compared to Tyros2. watch video i have found on youtube Roland Va-7 played live:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eTSMzyqNZ4

if you want the MS/Groove sounds better compared to Tyros2, you simply and easily most create your own GM/GS bank in GIGA format.

for example for better guitar and bass use this sounds provided by http://www.flamestudios.org :
http://www.flamestudios.org/free/GigaSamples

for better piano sounds this sounds provided by Sonart Audio:
http://sonart.cc/shop/product_info.php?cPath=62&products_id=210


and.............

if someone uses an external module,for example you can also turn your arranger internal sounds off, connect a Ketron SD2, to see how your arranger styles will sound with ketron sounds.in this way, even a Casio will sound better.

On MS/Groove your own GIGA GM/GS soundbank is like the external module example.

but with the advantage that you unlimited can update with new sounds. and when you use the sounds they are always there like rom chip sounds.

another good thing invented by domenico is Qranger. why because the styles are in midi format. so you can edit them in your own familiar MIDI/daw sequencer.

later load them into qranger, and if you want to use audio loops, you may do so.

Just save everything as qranger session file and the work is done.



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-25-2010).]

Hi James
If you have Kontakt 4 (Including just the player) you should be able to load and use Bandstand’s sounds without conversion, it also allows you to pre-load the sounds so that there is no delay when switching sounds. (Ideal if you want to continually switch between styles)
Hope this helps

Bill

From the Native Instruments Website http://www.native-instruments.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92744

Thanks abacus.

I still think it's better to convert the sounds and aim for making a best of GM bank.

I'm not going to just replace the GM bank with Bandstand as the GM bank already has many sounds better than Bandstand, it's more of a listen and see type exercise.

I'm also going to have other premium content I will want to mix in like Hans Zimmer Guitars and so on.

If I go down the road of making a mega GM bank, then everything will benefit from it without the need to load any additional software.

Regards
James

i agree with you

Ditto!

I wanna ask James...i am a legal owner od EWQL libraries such as Collossus, Goliath, RA, also
Reaktor, Kontakt, Battery, Absynth, Massive, FM8, also Korg's Legacy collection, bot Analog and Digital...
Then i have hundreds of Gigs of other Sampled material...what if all this was put in there???

You would end up with one hell of a workstation, that's what would happen. The way the system works you could jump between VSTi's with the press of a single button too, or mix them together under one performance in the VSTHOST.

Or why not drive the arranger with Goliath...lol.. that would be freaking awesome.

I have the EW Play Orchestral package myself, but I have yet to install it on the keyboard. Will be interesting to see how well in deals with my iLok key.

As for your Giga Library, it will run that like a dream. You can even layer up to 8 sounds in a single COMBI.

Anything is possible....!!!!!

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 04-25-2010).]

Well as it looks, will be testing that pretty soon...(-: MS with Goliath...lolz, i wanna see
then what can the G70 do...lolz.

'I've already done this and you can see the end results in Video 7. It takes no more than 5 minutes to tweak a style. So, is there anything wrong with what you head in that video ?

Sounds good to me and exactly what I would expect to hear from a typical closed keyboard.'


Thats not strictly true James. I dont know if you have ever tweaked a style yourself for live use. But it takes much more than five mins. Trust me on that.

For example most styles comes with between 2- 4 variations . Then potentially another 2-4 fillings plus maybe 2 endings and intros. All potentially will need to be tweaked and balanced . Also for more complex styles than the one you used in your example there maybe completely different effects that were used in the original style that would need to be applied to the converted style to make it sound like the original style again for each style variation fillin etc. For example if i were to convert the funk style on my korg i would have to find a similar funk drum set with say for example flams in the style for the conversion and the bass sound will have different slides,slaps ,mutes and picks in it to make it sound authentic. This style has up to 3 or 4 Chord variations within each style (i think)and the bass pattens change subtley between chord variations. How easily does that convert to another bass and drum set from a totally different company ? For example is the programming thats was done in the bass sound in terms of its response to velocity plus the mutes slides etc all standard from one VSt to another ?

Then if you have the facility on your keyboard the sounds will need to Eq'd as well as balanced between variations. Not just adjusting the balance of the sounds but the tonal quality. Thats why the demo you did sounded just like any other style conversion i have ever heard and thats not a critiscism of what you did. it was acceptable style conversion . But like you, i have pride in the work that i do and acceptable is not really what i am looking for. These are just the things i have experienced when making a style conversion sound as good as or better than the original. It can be done on any arranger if you have the skill and the ears and the time but i have never heard one yet. some got close though......

I know your demo was just to show how it could be done in terms of technicality i thank you for. No one else to my knowledge has ever done this for us to see .So thank you for that . It is in no way a put down of your work James , i want to make that very clear.

The boast of the MS (that as yet remains just a boast) is that you can use converted styles and make them better than they sounded on the original. Also that this is fairly easy to do simply because of the potential selection of high quality sounds it can facilitate.I know from experience that to just make a style conversion sound as good as the original takes a lot of time and skill including a very good ear to guess what sounds and effects were used within the style to make it sound as good as the style .

So ....

All i need is
1.To hear a style demo with all variations fillins etc sounding better than the original it was copied from a true A B test
2. Details as to how it was done and how long it took you to do this with just one style.

Thats really not much to ask after waiting over 7 years .

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 04-25-2010).]

Just get live-arranger trial, set it up to use your goliath as a GM source, fine tune the styles and you know what MS can do for you as an arranger... And Q-ranger is even more powerfull.

Hi Spalding
I see what you are getting at, but, you edit a style to your personal preference, however my preference could be totally different to yours, therefore there is no way a style edited by someone else will ever match your expectations.

If you just want to make it sound like the original, buy the original.

While Korg has the most extensive sound editing features on any closed keyboard, it is still primitive compared to most VSTi, and therefore you will be able to do everything you already do, and much, much more.

EG:
A good VSTi package is Komplete 6 http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/producer/komplete-6/ which comes with the Battery 3 Drum sampler http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/producer/battery-3/ (Also available stand-alone) which has 12 GB of drum samples and over 100 drum kits, therefore I can assure you that you will find one to match the mapping of your Korg. (And if you want to edit the sky is the limit)

In a nutshell, an open keyboard and VSTi will allow you to make a converted style better than the original, (To your preference) but it will not allow others to make the style sound better than the original to you, as your preferences are not transferable.

This is why I always say, unless you are prepared to put the work in, stick to a closed keyboard.

In your case IMO an open keyboard would be a dream, as you could really achieve your exacting standards, way beyond what your Korg offers. (Assuming you have time available of course)

Hope this helps

Bill

The boast was that the Mediastation could use, or load in, a factory preset style from another keyboard (manufacturer), and after a bit of editing and saving, make that style sound better than it did on the original keyboard.

I'm also interested if the Mediastation can play that style, and then, when the player switches to another edited (and stored) style, the transition is done relatively seamlessly, without losing any of the quality of either.

Ian

Hi Ian
As mentioned in my previous post, only YOU could make a converted style from another manufacture sound better than a manufactures style, as no one else has the same idea as to what YOU think is better.

If you edit 2 styles in a closed keyboard, and make them totally different to each other with the settings, then the transition between them will NOT be seamless, however if you match the settings then they will seamless the match.
The same principle applies to the MS. (You just have more settings that you can adjust)

Hope this helps

Bill

No Bill, actually it does not help.

I would understand that the style loaded into the Mediastation would be edited to use the same type sounds in each part...if the original style used Finger Bass, then you'd substitute a better quality Finger Bass from the Mediastation...if the guitar in Chord 1 was a Mega Voice Steel String Acoustic, then you'd replace it with a more satisfactory one from the MS, an Acoustic Grand Piano in Chord 2 would be exchanged with a superior one residing in the Mediastation ...and so on.

Since the Mediastation is using multiple VST's, it shouldn't be too difficult to find better sounds...or at least, that's the claim by Liontracs.

I'm also wondering how quickly the next edited and "improved" style selected will load in.

I believe that's what several others are wondering as well.

Ian

Hi Ian
The problem still remains, the Finger Bass voice I would select to replace the one in the style, is highly unlikely to be the same Finger Bass that you would choose, (The same goes for the rest of the sounds) in addition the balance and reverb settings etc., would also probably be different to what you would choose, none of which may be to your liking, and so the style (To you) would not sound as good as the original, whereas to me (As its set-up to my personal taste) it would be sounding way better than the original.
Likewise if you set up a style to sound better then the original, it would probably only sound better to you, not to me.

The above is why it is not possible to setup a style (Or any other keyboard for that matter) for anyone else, as each person’s opinions will be different.

Sounds can be set to pre-load on boot up, or when you load in a VSTi in manually, therefore there is no loading time between voice changes. (If you look at one of James early videos, he pre-loads the sounds (Which can be saved) and this allows him to switch between a 500 MB Piano and any other voice straight away.

Hope this helps

Bill

Hi Spalding



Trust me, I've programmed quite a few styles in my time for companies. My analysis of it is how it is providing that the style uses the same sounds on each variation which is always highly likely.

You can even hear me testing all the different variations and fills too.

If the style does use different sounds on different variations, no big deal then. I just untick the GLOBAL option and proceed working on the style in the exact same way I show in the video.

It's not like we are talking about actual programming here, this is nothing more than some basic operation of selecting a sound and adjusting volume and the send values of effects assigned.

So I still say the demo stands true to what it demonstrates. It takes a style that's not optimised for the keyboard and makes it operate just as good as any closed keyboard.

Ok... it wasn't a basic enough style pattern wise, but the amount of note data makes no difference.



I'd have two problems with the way your thinking on that.

1: Effects governing styles are global to the style selected and the only independent control you have over them is the send values for each track. Which I did edit in the video too.

2: Why on earth would one's goal every be to make the style sound exactly like the original. That's impossible as the sound engine is what gives the styles their sounds, so since in this case I don't have the sound engine of a KETRON, there's no chance in hell I'm ever going to make it sound exactly like the original. You shouldn't even be trying.

The end result sound only ever be quality and so the goal should be in this case to make it simply sound the best it can on the Medastation and forget what the original sounded like. It will never sound like a Ketron because you don't have Ketron sounds loaded into it. It will always sound like a Medaistation.



None of which is part of the style, it's all down to the sounds and the GM standard to a point.

Every Arranger is nothing more than a GM bank of sounds. Some better than others and more complete. Your slap bass might at best have 2 layers of multisamples, one for straight notes and a higher velocity one for slapping the string. Who's to say I my bass doesn't have 5 layers that reproduces even more detail.

Things sound more live when you have sounds like that. Again the goal should not be to try trigger off that slapping noise, it should be on getting the sound selected to play back the style more like the real instrument would.

Same goes for your right hand sound too. Your piano probably has 2 layers, 3 at most with each sample assigned to a number of keys. My piano has 5 layers, and ever single note is a new sample.

Which is going to sound better assigned to a style ? The one with 2 layers and stretched samples or the one with 5 layers, no loop points (natural decay) and full per note samples.



Hmmm.....True, there is no EQ per track in Live Styler but the state the sounds were in when sampled does not change unlike closed arranger keyboards. On a closed arranger the raw sample pass through the engine and is processed by the filters to give them dynamics and tonal changes and ADSR. Then it passes through the EQ and effects and you hear your sound.

On the Meidastation the sound is constant. When the sound was captured, it was captured with everything in place. So regardless of what mode you listen to it in, it will always sound the same. Sure you can adjust effects, but EQ, and tonal qualities are a constant, unlike closed keyboards. There is never any processing of RAW data. The sound is complete going into the engine.

With that in mind, I don't think tonal quality is something I'm every going to worry about when I can do things like assign a 500MB piano to a style, or guitars from Hans Zimmer.

However..... with all that said, for anyone deep into sound design they will also see flaw in this kind of complete sound to ADSR setup. Happy to discuss that, but it could be a topic for another thread as it would get very deep very quickly.



Sure and totally accepted.
I also think it needs to be addressed, and rightly so. Every Medaiatation owner can right now show you the keyboard blowing way pass workstations and arrangers when it comes to ( to use an arranger term) right hand sounds.

When it comes to styles I have not shown you anything you can't do already on your own keyboard. The converted styles just sound like... well converted styles.

The only reason for this is that the GM bank being used to drive the sounds it's very likely a collection of sounds from other Arranger keyboards. It's a sort of best of the best collection and it's very good, but it doesn't allow us to clearly demonstrate an open keyboard blowing way past a closed keyboard.

Again to use an arranger term, we get it on the right hand sounds, but the left hand sounds are still very typical arranger.

It's quite a funny thing to complain about actually. It's like being totally spoiled and never having enough.

So... until someone, Dennis or myself likely comes back with either a VSTi routed or a new mega GM bank, you guys will have to just hang in there.

I'm in the process of going through my GM bank as we speak and replacing sounds with premium content. So next time you hear a style playing back guitars from me, chances are the sounds will be from Hans Zimmer Guitars or some other award winning library.

I've decided that my efforts are best spend updating the GM bank with my purchased premium content rather than simply connecting in a VSTi because it will give me an instant boost in sound across any system that uses the GM bank.

For example, next time I load a midi file or a Karaoke file, or a style, or a.... whatever.



No problem, and I do want people to give me feedback. I'm not doing any of this because I have to. I'm doing all this because I would like to help people out and understand this keyboard.

The amount of feedback on the actual demo's has been almost zero. If I had of uploaded the typical camera mic content we have seen in the past, the forum would have been set on fire, but when I upload exactly what people ask for I get almost no feedback at all.

I have been taking that as a good sign, but it's nice to know what people are thinking.




Yep.. this is the only thing left that has not been demonstrated. And it will be demonstrated. Because the content required to do this does not come with the keyboard you need just hang in there until I'm or someone else is ready to go.

With Dennis jumping back on-board, it's either going to be him or me that gets there first. He might go straight for a VSTi, I don't know, my route is a little more complicated as I'm replacing the core GM bank where necessary.

Must point out though, when I say where necessary I mean where I have premium content I purchased that I know is of superior quality. It's by no means a bad reflection on the stock GM sounds. If I simply have an award winning library of sounds, I want to use them instead of the stock GM equivalent because... well they are award winning sounds.

When I'm ready and I hear a style playing back, I want to hear every bit of detail in every instrument used. I want to be able to even hear the type of plectrum used on a guitar.

I have all that on my right hand sounds. It's not time to get it on the left.



There will be no A & B example uploaded. Not by mean anyway. I'm not interested in comparing the sounds off a closed keyboard to huge giga files. I would think anyone even half deaf would be easily able to tell the difference when listening to the style.

What I will be going for is producing a style that does offer a superior sound that's so obvious you won't be asking about the closed keyboard it came from. As I said above, it's about the quality of the end result, not emulation.



Well I've been saying it myself for at least 2 of those years Lionstracs needed to hire a product specialist with the ability to play and record demo's in a manner suitable for people to listen to and get some sort of grasp over the concept and quality.

Still, here we are and things have moved on quite a big in the last number of weeks. Everyone now knows and I would assume accepts that as an OPEN workstaion it is super flexable and it sounds awesome.

As an arranger, we are not there yet. So far I would hope that people would accept that it has been demonstrated that it has all the abilities needed, and that the sound can sound like any typical arranger keyboard. So for function and ability there is no issue.

What remains is to now demonstrate it surpassing all that in a big way that's seriously noticeable.

Everyone happy with that evaluation of where we are at ?

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 04-26-2010).]

It boils down to this then, does it Bill?

It can't be proven that the Mediastation can make another arranger's style sound better than the original.

If that's the case, then people should not be making claims that cannot be proved.

Those making such claims, over the past number of years, should retract them immediately.

I hope this helps.

Ian

Why drive a Stick Shift..........
When you can drive an Automatic?

It is great that you are unraveling and demystifying much of what was misunderstood about the Mediastation.

The claim that was touted most often, was that the Mediastation could take a style from another high end arranger, at that time it was the Tyros2, and by subbing in the incredible VST (and GM) sounds of the MS into a T2 style, the result would be much better than the original.

I think you should put up the original style, and the Mediastation's "improved" version...lots of people have T2's here, or even an S910 could suffice.

Maybe you don't need to hear them compared, but I'm sure many here would like to A/B them..remember, this claim has been going on for quite some time, and it has never been substantiated.

If you're going to set the record straight, you may as well do it properly, so there is no doubt.

Ian

Ian that would certainly answer alot of questions for arranger players thinking of purchasing a MS unit.....lets see if this can be done.

Because you want to be in controll...

Many players have no desire to go through all the editing possibilities nor do they have the slightest knowledge of doing it...instead they would like top just but a quality KB and just make good music in an easy way.... it;s funny how some of the se manufacturers leave out the most important part and teaching the potention buyers or end user HOW THESE THINGS WORK....whats it all about...and provide serious ALL LEVEL instructional DVDs that can show people how to use the product before it becomes extinct. Weve been asking just to see a simple style revoiceing comparison that seems to be a federal case....what gives?

BTW I've been more then in control of my music for the last 40 years with out all the mumbo jumbo .....no need for s stick shift



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-26-2010).]

Hi Ian
You’re still missing the point, so I will try a different direction.

We take a Yamaha 8 beat style from the S910, we then ask 10 S910 users to make it sound better than the original, (On their S910) after a short length of time each comes back with their personal version.
You now have 10 different 8 beat styles, so how do you define which one is better than the original? (Remember the factory styles are designed by Pro style makers)

The same applies to the MS.
Get 10 users of the MS, and the same Yamaha 8 beat style, then ask them to edit it to sound better than the original, and what you will get back are 10 different versions.
How do you define whether they are better or not?

Hopefully the above will emphasize the difficulty in conversion of styles, into a version that is better than the original. (It’s just subjective)

To look it another way, how do you define what is better, when even 10 users of the same closed keyboard can’t even agree.

Regards

Bill

Hi DNJ
Like I keep saying, the customers you are talking about are better off with a closed keyboard; however those that want to do their own thing will be better off with an open keyboard.
It’s as simple as that.
Regards

Bill

BTW: if you look at cars sold globally, you will find that Automatics are in the minority.

Hi Bill.

It's the same note data in all cases so better can only ever be the once that uses more realistic sounds.

Sort of like playing a midi file back on your PC using it's GM table VS playing it back on your keyboard. It's all the same data but the keybaord will just sound better because it has better sounds.

Regards
James

Lolllzzz...not if you ask Americans...they still claim Basseball is a bigger sport then Soccer (Football)
and ONLY in America you see people playing FOOTball by HAND...LOLZ!

Bill.....I guess its a matter of choice......then again who is to say what sounds good or not when personal opinions are so egotistically driven.......I support choices in all it's glory all I am saying give the layman a better chance to understand by the manufacturer providing Quality Instructional DVDs so they may learn how to correctly use the product and enjoy it, or possibly be a catalyst for a purchase.

BTW... what type of instructional services are provided with the MediStation besides the manual and you Tube?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-26-2010).]

The idea is to take a Tyros2/S910 style, and load it in the Mediastation, then re voice each Yamaha style track with an equivalent voice from the Mediastation.

We aren't talking about swapping style parts around in either case...we are talking about using the same style patterns and plugging in the relevant (or equivalent and supposedly better) voices in the Mediastation in place of the same type sounds in the Tyros2/S910.

If the Yamaha style has an acoustic nylon guitar in the style's chord track 1, then the Mediastation should be subbing one of it's acoustic nylon guitars in the same track using the same pattern.

If the Yamaha style is using a strings patch for the pad track, then the Mediastation must use one of it's string patches.

It must do this for all parts (variations), including the Intros and Endings, as well as the fills.

I'm not missing the point at all...I'm very clear on what the Mediastation should be doing...it's exactly what was claimed it could do, so let's see if it can.

I'm also quite interested in how long it will take to make the conversion.

Ian

BTW...the style played in the Mediastation should be able to read all the chords the Yamaha will play, including inversions.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-26-2010).]

Ian if someone would try what you saying and post it here and it proves to be spectacular versus the original sound assignments people would be online to buy a MS unit including myself....... it's a simple request, I hope we hear it soon from some of the MS owners here on SZ if possible...should be interesting.

no James i dont agree. It not just about midi notes other wise ALL style conversions would sound better on higher end keyboards with better sounds than the original. In my ears this is rarely the case. Now maybe my ears are faulty but i would back them over the millions of words that have been said about this issue since converting styles became technically possible. But i wont get into a debate with you about it.

A simple A B test will settle this. Its not about creating a style that is exactly the same as the keyboard it was copied from. It is about making it sound better just by using better individual sounds and a little tweaking. There may be some subjectivity in this but pretty much everyone will agree that the styles in the T3 with its new sounds generally sound better than the styles in the Yamaha psr 8000. But a converted style from a yamaha psr 8000 will not ncecessarily sound better on a T3 without some monster editing even though the T3 may have better sounds. Like i said its not just about midi note data ! But lets not get into another discussion about it. we have talked about it for 7 years !!

A simple A B test would be enough to convince most (not all) if the theory that simply replacing the sounds with the best sounds you can buy makes the overall style sound better in reality and not just on paper (if things can sound on paper or text as in this instance !!!) . Or whether it is about the synergy of all the parts that creates the greater audible impression/quality.

That would settle it for me in any case and i suspect for many right here (assuming that it did not take a huge time commitment to do per style).

Actually, Spalding, it takes very little tweaking to make a PSR-8000's style sound much better on a Tyros3 (or an S910)...I've converted/edited quite a few styles in my day, and the procedure is quick and simple, as long as you stay within the Yamaha styles, and not be converting from Roland or Korg...these latter two take a bit more work.

Ian

Sorry but I've always found this to be dead easy. Better sounds really do automatically make things sound better. Getting the balance and settings right is also a piece of cake.

I know a performance can be played to get the most from the sound it was written with, but your then talking about the limitations of the sound and keyboard used there.

The newer keyboard your loading the data into could easily have a sound far superior that will make even more use of the performance as it may support more layers.

Which is often the case these days ad manufactures are including far more detailed sounds.

Regards
James

James will certainly get good results,
why:
-he converted Native Instruments Bandstand sounds to giga format.
-Bandstand-sounds are in kontakt fotmat
-kontakt format is well recognized by extreme sampler editor.
-so, he can with few clicks convert all 128 kontakt format instrumetns to giga format at once.
-because both formats are well supported by extreme sampler editor.
-instrumens will sound the same in both formats after converting, because all layers and loop points and other settings are the same ...............

Trosa has done good work with existing GM/ GS sounbank. but because he used a hardware may have missed some sound deltais.becouse of layers and looppoints and other settings.........

a hardware sampling requires more time to get good sounds.

So it is better to use sounds for your GM/GS bank in giga format designed by real sound sampling devolpers. or sounds in giga format created and provided by some manufacturers freely available for download to meet their other sound library. if this sounds are in a format which is recognized by extreme sampler editor or awave studio, with a few clicks you can convert the sounds to giga format.

another advantage on MS/Groove is that you can make the giga GM/GS bank very very bigger then 128 instruments.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-26-2010).]

I don't see much of a problem getting a generall style sound better with better sound samples, That should work obviously.

But with song styles, you need to find the Jazz-guitar that souns just like the orriginal, this will be a lot harder to acheive.

Hi Ian and Spalding
You say just substitute the same instrument in the style, (Such as an Acoustic Nylon Guitar) which is fine in a closed keyboard as you have a very limited number to choose from, but you can have 100s to choose from in the MS, so what chance is there that an MS owner would choose one that you would think would be ideal for the job, and if he didn’t, then no matter how good the sound, your still going to prefer the original.

If on the other hand you have an MS in front of you, and you can’t find any suitable sound to replace the original (Highly unlikely) then yes, for you the MS would have failed to live up to its claims.

Probably the best way to go about it is choose 1 or 2 of the factory styles for the MS owner to use, (Difficult with Korg as manufactures styles are difficult to get hold of) then let him do his job.
When the style is posted, say what sounds need changing or adjusting so that the MS owner can tune the style to your preferences. Eventually after a few postings you will have a style that suits you, and it would also show what you could achieve if you had a MS.

Just posting styles Willy nilly doesn’t work I’m afraid. (One man’s meat is another mans poison)

It would also help if a sound demo of the original style could be posted, along with the variations, chords used etc., to make it easier for the MS owner to compare. (It would also make a 1 – 1 comparison easier)

Bill

James, I have converted the Bandstand library to Giga3 with Extreme...I had a problem recognizing the "New Presets" division of Bandstand...It shows unknown Kontact file...error 3.....Were you successful converting this division?

If so , would make the conversion available to me?


Zmago, how is the new GM map you were working on ...coming along?

I do agree with you Ian....wow I surpised too!!!

The depth of programming on a Yamaha style, particularly those using mega and SA voices is, in my, view almost impossible to achieve on anything other than a Yamaha

Just for teh record, I was never one of those who claimed the MS style engine could be better than the Yamahas, Korgs, Ketrons et al.

I think the "playing" sounds, via VST's can be possibly better, but not styles.

That said, what I am going to try to do is see how CLOSE I can get the MS to the Yamaha styles using either VST or GIGA sounds. I already have a GM soundset based all on Giga patches, so that will be my first port of call in setting up the style. If I cannot get that to the level I think it should be I will then adopt a VST approach.

As for chord progs...I will also try to get the Live Arranger to emulate correct chord progressions including variable root bass lines...

To keep it all consistent, I wonder if you, or someone else, could record a couple of 32 bar chord progressions, no right hand work needed and then burn them down to a 256 MP3 and send them to me.

Perhaps one prog on the s910, and the same one on a more basic PSR that perhaps uses less SA and Mega technology (only for purposes of review).

Do one with variable root bass lines, and the other with the bass only on root.

I will then do the work on the MS, and post both sets of mp3 files.

I think that is the fairest way to do it.

To be honest I do not think the MS with the Live arranger will come too close to the S910/Tyros styles, but perhaps it will be a case of "they sound good , just different???".

But I think we can get it pretty close to a "standard" PSR.

Anyhoo let me know what you think.

Dennis

Now that this is officially another 'open' vs 'closed' arranger 'discussion', I think it is safe to say that every conceivable point of view has been expressed. Almost all have valid points but still the debate rages on. So what does this tell us? Nothing, as far as I can tell, except that perhaps the debate itself is more important than the answer. Carry on.

chas

One thing a lot of persons are forgetting about the MS is that whether a style sounds better is very subjective.

James could and probably will post examples of good converted styles on the MS but the detractors will still find that it is not to their liking.
And rightfully so. That’s why some have Yamahas, Roland Ketrons and Korgs.

After all, isn’t that a lot of the discussions hear on SZ?
Some people think Ketron styles are better than Yamaha. Some think Roland styles are better than Korg.

So why does any one think that one demo of the MS showing off a converted style would be pleasing to a Roland, Yamaha or Ketron lover?

The real advantage of the MS is that it allows the user to get a number of styles ready for that particular person’s gig types.

It is not as some people would like to think about substituting sounds. It is about customizing a style to your playing ability and having your own individuality.

You like to use a certain VST in your recordings? Well with the MS you can take that VST on your gigs and include it in a style and keep your signature sound.

If a real serious gigging is not taking time to modify and tweak styles to his playing ability and to his individuality, then that person is probably not as serious and probably not realizing his full potential.
Even the home players of the PSR 910 do the work and tweak their styles.

If you think that possibly the "playing" sounds can be better than you've either not heard a good VST or you need to get your hearing checked or you need to buy a better monitoring system. Play back any East West Symphonic sound on the Mediastation and then try and find one closed arranger or workstation that has a sound even close. It simply isn't going to happen.

I agree Genesys, and that is EXACTLY how I will be setting up mine. With just a handful of styles I need to do a few particular tunes.

On top of the solo piano tunes, and those that I use backing tracks for.

But what I going to attempt to do, as James has done already, is simply show what is possible on the MS, not try to take it places it cannot go

I think it then give people a far better view of the OVERALL capability of the keyboard.

Dennis

With all due respect Ensnareyou, you really do NOT know what I have what VST's (several) I own or what keyboards I own or have played.

Try "reading between the lines" instead of just making an assumption, that is wrong by th way.

The post is meant to be diplomatic.

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 04-26-2010).]

a friend of mine has Bandstand. I asked if he can convert a style of his Roland Va-7 to midi and play with bandstand and record as wave audio file.he send 2 wave files the result here:
http://www.easy-share.com/1910048197/Beguine.wav

http://www.easy-share.com/1910048077/FunkyPop.wav


He used only Minor chord and has not changed any settings.




[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-26-2010).]

I still haven't got an answer to my point I had in the other thread.

Why don't LIONSTRACS create their own styles instead of using (stealing) other brands styles. Never and I mean never will these styles sound as good as on a Yamaha or Korg. But if LIONSTRACS create their own styles and optimised them to their system and it sound as good as a Korg or Yamaha then maby I also am interested in a Mediastation.

If the Instruments/sounds are of a better quallity then yamaha or Korg (and they are) the right person can tweak any general type of style to sound better on Mediastation.

Tough the many song styles, specially created for a certain song, will be more difficult.

Its not stealing tough. Its like selling an MP3 player with no MP3's on it, that also plays wav and different formats. You just need to buy the content. You still need to pay for the content. There are many style packs available for other arrangers that you can buy and use on mediastation.

And soon there will be 3rd party styles espescially for the MEdiastation. So its just a different concept. A concept that lets you pay for the styles you want, instead of paying for 300 styles of which you will only ever use 200... so basically you payed for 100 styles you never used.

Hi Fran.



I've converted all 128 nki files from the Default folder into Giga files.

The ones I haven't touched are ones in the Preset folder as they are not single sounds. They are COMBI sounds.

If you want to convert them, load up Bandstand inside Extreme Sample Converter, then load the COMBI Preset and using the Sample VSTi extract the sounds that way.

Personally I won't be doing that as they don't have anything to do with GM compatibility.



Sure if I have something you don't.



Still just going through my library of sounds picking out the best of the best in order to build up a list of sound I'm going to replace.

I haven't devoted much time to all this at all yet.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 04-27-2010).]

Again unless they are very simple styles or styles from 20 years ago the Mediastation can't sound as good as the original arranger. What about Yamaha's megavoices and Korg's RX technology they use in their styles. Don't get me wrong. As a VST player the mediastation is the best thing on earth. A very professional machine. But we are talking about arrangers on this forum. And IMHO it doesn't come even close to that. James had even bought the SD2 to let the Ketron styles sounds good.

VST tecnollogy is vastly superior, anything that can be done with megavoices can be done with VST's or gigasamples... but it would require some programming to get the layers correct... after all, megavoices are nothing more then souns with different stuff at the certain vellocity levels.

When Mediastation comes mainstream there will be users that recreate megavoices and share them...

Openlabs has a great software tool named Mimik to do just that : http://www.youtube.com/OpenLabsInc#p/c/C2121912BED1E826/25/K4DSE60knuU

Yes but programming it exactly as Yamaha and Korg? You can't do that. No program can do that. If you can do that let me hear. And who want to program that. Not me I want to play not do the job of the sound engineers. I also don't find VST superior. Superior to what? To a Korg M3 or a Yamaha Motif XS?

Yep. there's that word "when" again...been hearing that for quite a few years now...still no go.

Ian

Yes Ian and also that word superior irritate me.

Yamaha and Korg have their Mega-voices and DNC integrated in the arranger section...that's why they are such a doddle to use, yet, they provide enormous amounts of expressivity.

So far, Mediastation has not been able to totally utilize the power of the VST's in an accompaniment generator.

It's always, "When the Mediastation"..."Soon the Mediastation"..."Some day the Mediastation will..."

I'll believe all their hype when I hear it....meanwhile Korg and Yamaha will continue to raise the bar.

Ian

Do you know how mega voices work, i asume you do.
And did you watch the video, i asume you did

Then you must have seen how easy it is to copy mega voices with the program Mimik. And these megavoices will sound exactly like the Yamaha megavoices.

Of course I know how Mega-voices work...it's just that I haven't seen their equivalent in a Mediastation, which it will need to make Yamaha styles sound as good as on the original instrument.

Edited to add: I know..."some day" the Mediastation will have these mega voice equivalents in their accompaniments...meanwhile, Yamaha has been using them successfully since the Tyros1(2002) and continues to improve and develop them...even their mid-range instruments have them.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-27-2010).]

Now you are talking funny. Yamaha has his own sound. Unless you use a Yamaha VST the mediastation will never sound as a Yamaha.

Thats because you need to use a NEKO to use the program Mimik. And prolly noboddy has both. but its only amatter of time.

Mimik is my no means unique.

Extreme Sample Converter, Sample Robot and Samplit all do the same thing and they have been a round a lot longer.

I have Extreme Sample Converter myself

Regards
James.

Well, Neko's aren't much money, are they?
I suppose one could add it to their Mediastation...but, doesn't the Mediastation already play VST's much like the Neko?

Perhaps the Mediastation user group could purchase one to share amongst themselves?

Of course, not all of the users will want to be using the Mediastation as an arranger.

Ian.

That's great, James...now we'll be able to hear the equivalent of Mega Voices and DNC in the Mediastation's arranger section.

Ian

I'd love to hear one sound on any closed arranger or workstation that can compete with the best VST's available. I'm not talking about synthesizer emulations either, I mean real world instruments i.e. Grand Piano, Strings, Horns, Guitars, Choirs, Drums, Percussion, etc. If you're not finding a VST to be superior in sound chances are you're using free VST's which have limited capabilities, your monitoring system is sub par, or you've lost part of your hearing.

Take into consideration that high end VST sounds like East West Symphonic and Choirs utilize more RAM in a single sound than the entire sound set from any arranger. This allows for much longer samples, more velocity switching, and more multi-layer samples which yields far more realistic results.

So if you have a sound from your Roland, Korg, or Yamaha arranger or workstation that matches or rivals the best VST out there show me a link to a sound demo where I can hear it A/B'd side by side.

Unfortunately Mimik has limitations and does not reproduce all sound perfectly and be prepared to use tons of memory to clone even one sound let alone an entire keyboards sounds. Nice marketing hype though.

What bar are you referring to? Besides the Korg Oasys being a great synthesizer I haven't seen Korg set any bar within the last 20 years since the M1. Unless you count Yamaha conjuring up fancy names for multi sampling and and overcharging for dated technology setting a bar, Yamaha hasn't set any bars either since the DX7. Then again the DX7 didn't set any bar for sound as FM technology had already been available years prior, Yamaha just mass marketed it in a $2,000 instrument.

While you and others may buy into the hype of Mega Voices and Super Articulation, I know that's nothing more than marketing hype. I've been using multi sampled sounds with real time switching on my Fairlight since the 1980's. Fairlight truly set the bar when it came to an instrument that sounded great, was intuitive, and was upgradeable. When Roland, Korg, or Yamaha develops a system that is as intuitive, upgradeable, and has a sound quality that rivals 30 year old Fairlight technology, then perhaps they might be setting a bar. So far that hasn't happened yet.

I really get tired of all this. Want to sound like the real thing play the real thing.

Whatever you buy into, really doesn't matter...Yamaha and Korg make terrific arrangers, closed or not...they have set the bar high enough so that so called "superior" open arrangers like Mediastation, cannot play their styles correctly (as the hype has alluded to) without additional software and/or lots of tweaking...and we still haven't seen/heard any proof that they will in the near future, if at all.

As far as the Fairlight goes, it is not an arranger, so comparing it to modern arrangers, even a mid-range PSR-S910 is, more or less, rather silly.

Makes no difference to me how well or how awful the Mediastation does with Yamaha/Korg styles...it is not a competitor to the Tyros3 or PA2XPro, so I would like to see Mediastation have great success.

Ian

I think you will find that the Korg DNC is for right hand sounds only. (Just like Yamaha SA)
RX Technology is just a marketing name for the Korg sound engine

Apart from the very latest styles from Korg that use Guitar mode, both they and Roland styles convert quite well to other keyboards, unlike Yamaha Mega Voices. (Which are a pain in the backside, and so repetitive)

IMO both Korg and Roland styles leave Yamaha styles for dead, due to the fact that Yamaha styles are very song specific, and include everything including the kitchen sink. (My pet hate with styles, as I come from an organ background)

BTW all studios for a good number of years now use a minimum of 24 bit 96 KHz for their recordings, (Rather than the old and antiquated 16 bit 44 KHz (CD Quality) of previous years) so make sure your sound system can get the best from this level, otherwise you will be missing out on a lot. (You will find that most modern technology’s (Blu-Ray etc.) now use 24 bit sound as the norm)

Bill

Yes, we all are entitled to our opinion...I think Yamaha's are the best, and pretty well equalled by Korg in some genres...actually, both have their strengths and weaknesses...of course that's the beauty of choice...you don't like...you buy something else.

I come from a fairly extensive piano and organ background, so I like styles both full, and stripped down...it's very easy to do on any of today's arrangers.

Although I like factory styles, I prefer to edit them and give my arranger music it's own identity.

Ian

Wrong. EDS is Korgs sound Engine. RX technology is Korg's answer to Yamaha's Megavoice technology. If you listen to Korg styles you will hear that. Just like Yamaha Styles you will never get a Korg style sound good on a mediastation IMHO.




[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 04-27-2010).]

Just a reminder to Ian or anyone else that can help with this...Seems the thread got sidetracked after I posed the question.

Dennis

I haven't forgotten, Dennis...I've been very busy preparing for two home/trade shows and a clinic for this weekend...this is a hectic time of year for me.

Next week, if time permits, I could play/record a couple of chord progressions using two on-board (preset) Tyros2 styles, that I will get/pick from PSR-Tutorial, since the original claim by Liontracs was that the Mediastation could sound better playing a Tyros2 style than a Tyros2 (this included intros and endings).

I can use my S910 (won't have the T3 back for a few weeks) to play the unmodified T2 styles, and perhaps send the recordings and styles to you, for both conversion and then revoicing, and ultimately, recording using the Mediastation.

If there are any Tyros2 or Korg PA owners who can help out, it would be appreciated, as it's a bit tough for me right now.

Ian

No worries Ian,

My bad, I thought you may have missed the post

But there is no rush at all, even if it takes a few weeks is okay.

And I agree, ANY other Yamaha users could do this easily.

I COULD use LiveStyler on my PC, but that is not using the Yamaha sound engine, so the results would not really be fair. VST up against PC synth!!!

Dennis

One important but overlooked and misunderstood point regarding the MS playing a T2 or any other keyboard style is that the result is only as good as the skill level of the MS user and the type and quality of the VSTs the user chooses to revoice the style. Those two have nothing to do with the MS but are the only thing that would substantiate the “claim”.

If the user does not know anything about styles, does not understand mixing and EQ then the style will sound bad. If the user only uses free VSTs and does not look for high quality VSTs, then the style will sound bad. If you noticed, that is what was happening with the past demos.

Lionstracks never told users which VSTs to use that would make a Yamaha style sound “better”.

So this proposed exercise is pointless because it will not settle anything.
And I remind people again that someone did do a demo of a meringue style and most people felt it sounded good but at the same time they said it did not count because it was a meringue.

I'm glad Dennis is proposing this little comparison, and I'm sure he knows what he is doing quite well...he wants to see how well his Mediastation performs.

James can also step in and add his expertise as well, and so can Fran...these guys are pros as well...and of course, Lionstracs themselves are welcome.

Hopefully they will have high quality VST's to use, but if not, we can take whatever they say they are using into consideration.

Anything to unravel much of the mystery surrounding the Mediastation, should be considered a plus.

Ian

Are you considering a Yamaha style which includes Mega and SA voices to compare or just a older straight style?

Donny, I'm going to pick two Tyros2 styles, and they will contain mega-voices.

Considering Ensnareyou thinks mega-voices are all "hype", it shouldn't present a problem, and the claim by Lionstracs was that the Mediastation could make a Tyros2 style sound better in the former than it would in the latter.

Using an older non-mega style wouldn't let the Tyros2 show it's features, and, according to Ensnareyou and a few others, the VST's available for the Mediastation are far superior to Yamaha's mega-voices.

SA/SA2 voices cannot be used in the styles, but the mega-voices were designed specifically for use in them, and should be featured.

Ian

Thanks Ian....I as everyone else waits with bated breath ! People please hurry.

I'm curious

The Mega voice type voices have been available in VSTi for over 10 years, and are now much more advanced, “However” due to the makeup of these type of voices it will take a lot longer to convert these styles then MS users think, (RX voices are a piece of cake in comparison, due to the simplicity of them)

Once done then yes, they will be way in advance of the T1/2/3, “However” I have to ask the question, “Why” the idea of the MS is to make it your own, not emulate a T2 or a PA1x, so why not use it as intended rather than pandering to others, who even if you achieved perfection still wouldn’t buy one.

IMO if you want to impress people, then yes, use a T2/PA1x style if you want to, but “Don’t” try and emulate a T2/PA1x, just make it suitable for what you want, (Not others) as that way the passion will come through.

Bill

Bill, as I said in my original post about this experiment ......

"To be honest I do not think the MS with the Live arranger will come too close to the S910/Tyros styles, but perhaps it will be a case of "they sound good , just different???"...........

The main reason for that comment was that mega patches in the styles have many velocity layers and programming. I am NOT going to try and emulate that depth of programming

So I don't think I , for one, will be getting too pedantic about matching a style perfectly. I want to get it as close as I can using the existing style structure, but substituting the Media Station sound engine.

Dennis

the idea is to make it sound better than the same style. Not necessarily emulate it. So dennis is free to choose whatever sounds he wishes so long as it does not completely alter the style so that no fair comparrisons can be made. IE using a synth bass instead of an accoustic one . The mega guitars can be replaced with any VST that plays the same realism as the the original style in the style. Lets not back away from the comparrison. We are looking at a straight AB comparrison right ?

Hi Spalding
Yes you can change the Acoustic Bass of a Korg style (Or any normal voice) with a better quality Acoustic Bass voice from a VSTi, however you can’t just substitute and ordinary Acoustic Bass (No matter how high the quality) for a Mega Voice Acoustic Bass, as the voice you choose has to have a similar set-up to the Mega Voice.

Most people think Mega Voices are just ordinary voices with a few extras added, however they are NOT, they are specifically engineered for style play on Yamaha instruments. (This is why (Just like SA Voices) you don’t see many Mega Voices released, whereas ordinary voices are aplenty)

Bill

Mmmmmm
Maybe the problem can be different..
Most of the standard arranger have oonly OR at max 8 trcaks patterns.
1) drums
2) percussion
3) bass line
4) chords
5) Chords
6) melody

For resolve the limited tracks on chords/melody, the only way is to develope SA voice ( layered sounds) for getting many sounds system on the same track.

On qranger fortunally we dont have this limitation, unlimited audio-midi tracks for each pattern.
The qranger structure is always based on 3 mode tracks propiety:
1) drums
2) bass
3) melody
this mean that you can create unlimited audio-midi tracks and set under the desidered system propiety.
In this way for example, you can use a normally .gig guitar in one track, then create a new track and use a Noise.gig guitar sounds and mix all together.
Boh...this is just a possibility..
I leave the others to choose how to develope a audio-midi styles, the qranger is full open for make the all what you want.

Mimik is NOT the answer to anyone's desire to sound BETTER than a closed arranger. Simply copying the sounds, so that the styles can finally play correctly is an insane solution. All along, for ever, since DAY 1 of the launch of the MS, it's protagonists have CLAIMED (and as of yet, utterly failed to prove) that the MS will sound BETTER than a closed arranger. The thought that you have to clone a closed arranger to sound better is idiocy at its' most obvious. Only with the greatest attention to detail will the MS ever sound even IDENTICAL, and even James should be ashamed to suggest it. He well knows that sampling a sound that also uses envelopes and LFO, pitch transposition will munchkinize those sounds into something different, and lesser, to be frank.

But the very fact that this Mimik solution is even SUGGESTED by MS users just goes to show how completely incapable of bettering the closed arranger sound with the solution that is obvious in the first place, simply using better quality VSTi's...

Once again, I draw attention to the fact that modern arrangers have gone FAR beyond GM. Non-standard drum maps, extensive variations on the capitol sounds - none of these modern extensions to the old way of doing things is even mentioned by those that think (but so far have failed to provide acceptable example of) replacing a modern arranger's sounds is EASY. Instead they trot out the tired and patently idiotic solution of actually cloning the closed arranger's sounds!

There are probably at least half a dozen GREAT guitar sounds, and possibly more, in any closed arranger, just in the steel guitar section. Suggesting that ONE good steel guitar GM GIGA sound is going to adequately replace ALL of them is absurd. They each have a different sound and function, and the designers of the style took its' sound into account as they made the style. Look, it isn't always easy to substitute one guitar for another even within the SAME soundset of just one arranger. As I keep trying to point out (and no-one apparently has any kind of response for), the sound ITSELF dictates the performance. Any of you out there with any decent chops whatsoever will acknowledge that you play and respond to different patches, even of the same basic sound, quite differently. A change in velocity to filter response, or of sample crossover points, or of basic release or attack envelopes will ALL make you play somewhat differently. This is at the crux of why styles don't translate well. Change the sound, you often need to change the PERFORMANCE, too.

But all that is being suggested is to cobble ONE GIGA sound to replace several, and best of jolly good luck if it matches the intention of the style performer..!

This, gentlemen, at least in MY book, is completely insufficient, and at the root of why pretty much all the style conversions from the MS I have ever heard suck. To be fair, it's the same reason why even closed arrangers (who at least start out with a balanced full soundset) seldom manage to equal the original arranger's style. The sound IS the performance. And cloning a sound to make an acceptable translation is stupid. Why ever would one clone a closed arranger (at considerable effort, I might add) when you could simply buy the closed arranger far less expensively in the first place..?!

I am getting almighty tired of listening to those that don't even USE their MS in arranger mode keep trying to tell us how easy something is to do that it is patently obvious they have yet to try. As I keep asking (and I never get), why don't those of you that SAY it is so easy provide us with example after example, not excuse after excuse...?

Oh, and BTW, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the strength of the Yamaha Mega-voice system was that, along with the basic musical notes of the sound, there are also a lot of non-musical noises. For instance, pick noise, scrapes, body knocks, muted notes, and ways to damp held notes. And the REAL trick with these notes is that, unlike the regular pitched notes, that get transposed around, depending on what chord is played, these sounds DON'T. So you have transposed and untransposed sounds all within the same patch...

So, for them to work properly, the style player itself is supposed to be able to differentiate between the pitched and unpitched sounds, and transpose only within a certain range... has anyone that claims all this is easy even BOTHERED to check whether the MS's style player (or Live styler) will actually play this way? And has anyone bothered to find out whether these GIGA sets use a similar system for triggering alternate, non pitched sounds, or if they use something totally different (for instance, PC#'s or controller codes) are compatible with any style engine?

Once again, I detect all too much theoretical 'it OUGHT to be able to do such and such' but it is obvious from the complete lack of example that once again, theoretical knowledge appears to be sufficient for MS owners. But most of us are not content with theoretical example. If it is so easy, JUST DO IT.

How about we put a moratorium on theoretical responses..? If you can't SHOW us it being done, it's pretty obvious you haven't done it. And therefore, you are in no position whatsoever to tell us that it CAN be done...

Sadly, I doubt the MS fanboys will respect this, though. It's just TOO easy to keep talking about things you know nothing about, isn't it? As long as you never have to SHOW us you know what you are talking about, hey, who's going to call you out?

Well, me... for starters!

Correct Dennis....and, you were not one of those who claimed the Mediastation could play a Tyros2 style better than the Tyros2 itself.

However, I'm glad you wish to at least try and see how well the Mediastation performs this task...at least you are willing to try, rather than be like the others and boast but not back up their claims.

You would think the manufacturer would be leaping at a chance to prove how much better their instrument can play another instrument's style, especially after making these claims many times on this forum.

So, it's going to take an owner, like yourself, to showcase the Mediastation...personally, since you are basically doing a clinicians job, I think you should be compensated in some way, especially if you can get the instrument to sound even reasonably close to a Tyros2.

As Bill said above," The Mega voice type voices have been available in VSTi for over 10 years, and are now much more advanced, “However” due to the makeup of these type of voices it will take a lot longer to convert these styles then MS users think."

And, again, ]"Most people think Mega Voices are just ordinary voices with a few extras added, however they are NOT, they are specifically engineered for style play on Yamaha instruments."

So it appears you have a fairly difficult task ahead of you, although Ensnareyou and Lionstracs, and a few others, seem to think the Mediastation can do the task quite easily.

I must say, I admire your willingness to at least try to show how close the MS can mimic the T2's styles...it is certainly far more effort than any of the others have shown.

If it fails to reproduce a mega-voiced style better than a Tyros2, we can always pick a few non-mega styles, and see how it does with them...if that's okay with you?

I know you are interested in seeing how well your keyboard handles styles, plus, doing these experiments will also let you get to know the instrument much more intimately, so you, personally, have much to gain, and nothing to lose.

Thanks again,

Ian

And that is why just telling an MS user to “make a converted style sound better” by just replacing one sound with another is ridiculous.

Already, the detractors are limiting the examples by saying don’t replace an acoustic bass with a synth bass.
That only underscores the point that “better” is very subjective.


Lets be real, if some MS users put up examples of a Yamaha style played on the MS and it does not meet with approval by the detractors, does any one seriously think that it is a result of the MS not being able to do what it said it can do?
Of course not!

For example, Arrangers are advertised that they can sound like a one man band.
But if some one has a G70 arranger, takes it on a gig, plays using styles and has no timing, presses the fill and intro buttons at the wrong time, plays wrong chords, and otherwise sounds bad, do we then say arrangers could not make someone sound like a one man band?

No. we all know it is the user that would make the arranger sound like a band.

So why does any one think it will be any different with the MS.

In fact there is an additional factor with the MS. The type and quality of the VST or sound source the user uses will greatly affect the style.

Its just like a DAW manufacturer. If Sonar says you can make recordings on their DAW that would be radio ready, and a user creates a recording that is not radio ready, do we say that Sonar can not make a recording that is radio ready? No. we all know it entirely depends on the skill of the user and the sounds that the user uses.

And, if some one wanted to make a style sound {“better” on an MS, they may not use all the style tracks that are in the original style.
A person may feel that with the sounds that they are using on the MS, less sounds on the style part may make them sound “better” when they are playing.

Just because a style may sound “better” does not equate to you sounding “better” playing the style.

You should try telling that to the ones who claimed the Mediastation could easily load in a Tyros2 style, and by replacing (re-voicing) the T2's mega-voiced style tracks with the Mediastation's "superior" VST voices, the style will sound far better than it sounded originally.

The claim, such as the above, has been made on this forum many times, and yet, it has never been backed up...not once.

And, this claim to fame seems also to be promoted by those who don't even own or play a Mediastation.

If the above claim is not true, then it should be retracted, and the Mediastation can go on doing what it does best...playing VST's remarkably well.

Ian

So, a good player on a Casio will sound better than a bad player on an MS. Does that make the Casio or the MS the 'better' arranger..?!

More excuses, and patently absurd ones at that...

Why wouldn't someone substitute an acoustic bass with a synth bass? Hmmmm, let me think about that for a nanosecond! Perhaps because most styles that use acoustic bass are ACOUSTIC styles? Perhaps, in YOUR world, jazz and bigband use synth basses. Back in the REAL world, they (on the whole) don't..!

I'm sorry genesys, but your entire post (and most others about the MS) simply sounds like an advance apologia for how bad these conversions are going to suck... YOU'RE the one telling us this can be done. Where's YOUR music made on the MS? Got any? Got any in style mode? Shy? Making excuses already? Got ANYTHING done on an MS? How long you had it already?

If you can point to the specific claim that the MS manufacturer made a bout style conversion please share.
Not your interpretation but the actual claim.

A good player on a Casio will sound better than a bad player on an G70. Does that make the Casio or the G70 the 'better' arranger?

With regards to the acoustic and synth bass analogy, finally you are now understanding the problem and the absurdity of an A/B test.
There are just to many variables to take in to consideration.
If some one were to take an acoustic bass in a very traditional jazz band style and replace it with a synth bass then that underscores that it is the user that has the problem not the MS.
To use a synth bass in place of an acoustic bass, it depends on the type of style, the type of synth bass that would be used to replace the original bass, the other sounds in the style, the songs that would be played with the styles and other factors. All of which have nothing to do with the capabilities of the MS.


However, you are correct when you say that my post are “advance apologia for how bad these conversions are going to suck”.
I along with other persons understand how absurd the exercise is. I understand that there are to many variables (two of which I have mentioned in prier post) to where this exercise could even be remotely be beneficial.
If any one thinks otherwise, they are sadly mistaken.

Hi Diki
All your musings about how folks should be posting styles not talking about it, is a little like the pot calling the kettle black.
You have always said how much better the styles sound on your G70 then the MS, yet you have never posted any, you just point users who ask to professionally produced and recorded demos, (On multi-thousand pound recording rigs) or send them over to the Roland forum so that they can hear the style totally smothered by your vocals, thus making comparisons a nonsense.

Post the superior G70 styles of yours, specifying the style used, the variations, intro's used, (Including what order) and the style chord sequence used, (Include details on the chord recognition system being used) then record it on your G70, and convert it to a 256 'MP3, (With no tweaking of the original recording or MP3) and post it on the SZ site. That way true comparison can be made. (Ian says he is happy to do it, as I am sure are others, are You?)
Regards

Bill

Seems to me that the MS only gets into trouble when it's FANS (owners and non-owners) try to promote it's talents as a 'superior' ARRANGER while it's MANUFATURER has said (at least, recently) that this is merely a 'secondary feature'; a side benefit of it's 'open architecture'. Seems to me that comparing it to a TOTL DEDICATED arranger is like comparing a laptop computer to a dedicated controller for your house's security system. Sure, the laptop can do it (along with many other functions), but will it be as easy to program, have all the built-in safeguards and backups. Can we add more sensors without screwing up the programming, will the program still run when the 'generic' OS is upgraded. But mostly, how much does that powerful laptop cost compared to the dedicated controller (which most will concede, does a better job with that specific task).

I think we should just concede that the MS is probably never going to be able to compete with an instrument whose every atom is dedicated to one purpose, arranger style play. We should also concede that it (the MS) is probably infinitely superior as an integrated VST/VSTi player with (probably) better filters, ad/da converters, clocks, preamps, etc., than the average synth, workstation, or arranger kb, along with the resources necessary to host more sophisticated sequencers, samplers, audio recorders, etc., than the usual 'closed system' keyboard.

I think that GOOD or BAD in the keyboard world has a lot to do with the intended task and how well it performs THAT task. JMO.

chas

You got to be kidding to the Genesys. How long have you been on this forum ? If Dom in his numerous guises has never said that the MS will sound better than any closed arranger or that it could play converted styles better than the original because of the superior sounds then he has absolutely implied it ! I cant be bothered to search the forum to show you as i know Dom under liontracs and various other names has in the past deleted his posts but he has participated in this thread.

How come he has never said

"sorry chaps ....i never said that the MS could produce converted styles better than the original they came from....sorry for the misunderstanding guys !"

Your post is priceless !

No, Dom is just sitting on the sidelines hoping somebody will be able to uphold the claims that he for the last 7 years has either made outright or implied but failed to do !!

I just want to add thati hope noone feels under too much pressure in this test. I realise it was unfair to put James or Dennis under this kind of scrutiny but i am really grateful for your input and have maximum respect for what you are doing for us

Agree. Except I would add that from the MS perspective it is possible for the MS to compete with a TOTL arranger but that is not the major feature of the MS and its arranger ability is not a function of the MS but a function of the user.

For example, the PSR S910 has the ability to compete with the Korg PA2x pro but that is not the major feature and for it to compete with the Korg PA 2x pro, it depends on the user.

Spalding... are you also so frustrated like Diki??
Incredible..now we have two Diki on board..

Diki, you seriously have to start reading whats being posted and not just switching off after a few lines. I never said anything like that at all.

I've stated quite clearly I have no interest in trying to get the Mediastation to sound identical or even remotely close to some other closed arranger and that I won't be doing any A & B tests.

I've even been writing my own computer program which I will release for free that allows anyone to assemble, modify and replace data in GM banks quickly and easily from their PC. You can even see a preview of it on the Lionstracs section, it's called LSPC Gen. I've been doing this because I've also converted Bandstand into Giga format and I want to create my own mega GM bank. All of which has been said on the forum a few times at this point so my plans have always been known by people actually reading what's being posted.

At no point did I say or even remotely suggest anything about cloning keyboards to make the mediastation sound like them.

Someone said something about mimic only working on an open labs keyboard and I simply pointed out that the software was by no means unique and that PC alternatives have existed for years and that I had one of these programs.

Not that your probably even reading this post right now either. Probably just switched off after the first few lines as always.

James.

Here you are right..
In fact 7 years ago I was working with...let me think...windows3.1 or windows 98??
Ouch..now finally after 7 years with windows Vista we have fixed all and all is working..
Ah..no...sorry..now give Windows 7..
why on windows 7 still 90% of the Vst are not working fine?
Microsoft is comtinue fix his ....OS, like we are here to continue fix and add new features ..

Well at least Dom has been able to keep his sense of humor. I have to admit, I'm partial to people with a good sense of humor. Too many people take themselves way too seriously. Trust me, only a very tiny percentage of the population is listening to you.



chas



[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 04-28-2010).]

To get a style with megavoices working over on the Mediastation, you need to create an exact copy of the megavoice and use it on mediastation..

Megavoices are so specific in their structure that they can only be replaced by an exact copy of the Megavoice.. or an improved version of it (which takes huge amounts of time).

I beleive tough that Wersi allready supports the megavoice styles, so it can be done. But for now they are unavailable for Mediastation yet.

So its unfair to do a comparison with a style containing a megavoice untill someone copied these megavoices to Mediastation and shared them.

So for a fair comparison, you guys need to use a style that does not use megavoices, and substitute the sounds with the best giga sounds avialable (or vst's) Otherwise its unfair.

And to Diki: one does not have to copy all T3 sounds, just the megavoices (because of their specific structure) because we both know you can't replace it with a normall instrument because the midi/style track is very specifick for a megavoice.


So untill someone copies/creates the megavoices to gigasamples you just can't use Yamaha styles with megavoices on Mediastation.

Flipping heck, there's only 23 of them too?

lol... Ho well, back to my thousands of Giga files.

James

Actually, what really is humorous, is that the Tyros2, an instrument with only a handful of mega-voices, makes having thousands of giga files for the Mediastation's accompaniment section, rather useless.

No sense comparing any longer, since the Mediastation is clearly not equipped to be in the running.

Ian

Well, that seems to settle things for me, and, now Dennis and I don't need to do a comparison.

Let's hope that all these wild claims that the Mediastation can make Tyros2 styles sound better on the former than the latter, will finally come to end.

Ian

Sorry, double post.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-28-2010).]

Finding a sound that is similar to replace the Megavoice will merely take time but not that much time. As for the rest of the accompaniment sounds i.e. bass, drums, percussion, backing sounds, there isn't a single sound the Tyros 2 is going to produce that will rival any high end VST file. Yamaha drums and percussion are very mediocre so AKAI samples or "BFD" will easily best them. The right hand sounds there simply is no comparison.... A Tyros 2, 3, or any other closed system isn't going to hold a candle to the best multi-samples a VST has to offer.

Hi Ian
There are plenty of VSTi voices that can replace a Mega voice, (They came out long before Yamaha introduced their versions on the Tyros series) however the amount of work involved to make them match the Yamahas programmed styles is very labour intensive, (Just like the Tyros trying to control the VSTi Mega voice equivalents) it can be done, but it takes a hell of a lot of work.

Fortunately it is easy enough to swap the Mega voice track for a normal one, and then use (For instance) a VSTi rhythm voice. (It won’t sound the same, but the idea is to make it sound better, not emulate what is already there)

Bill

Not according to what others say (some of whom do not even own a Tyros2 or Mediastation).

They say it's nigh on impossible to equal or surpass Tyros2's handful of mega-voices in the Mediastation's accompaniment, even with 1000's of giga voices.

I'll be just glad to see all the empty boasting come to an end...nearly 7 years of malarkey is a bit much.

Ian

I'm sorry......What did you say?...

Well, that's just a cop-out, Bill, because the initial boast was that the Mediastation's VST's were better than the mega-voices, and that merely re-voicing the Tyros2's style would be sufficient.

The way it was implied was that the Mediastation could take a Yamaha Tyros2 style, as is, and easily make it sound better than on the Tyros2.

So now it's it's come down to the changing of original style parts...sounds like weaseling out to me.

That's fine, because my time is precious over the next two months, so I won't need to waste it proving the obvious.

Let's face it...Yamaha's handful of excellent mega-voices can't be easily duplicated...and the Mediastation can't make Tyros2 styles sound better.

Best to stick with what the Mediastation does best (playing VST's), and have the arranger section as a handy plus, for those needing that feature.

Ian

Ian, sounds (tones) are SSSOOOOO personal..What I like another will not..what you like, some one else will not....What we are use to..is also what we "think" sounds better..

Most Yamaha owners marvel over the "mega" tones....I think when compared to the standard XG tone bank...sure they stand out...but compared to other brands that have similar tones..the other brands equal or sound better....It is a individual taste...and there will always be heated arguments about what each of us think is the better sound..

As I mentioned over the years ..All manufacturers have sounds that "stand out" compared to the competition..

Personally, I thought the Yamaha concert guitar was a stand out...but less than excited about the other heralded tones..
I thought that Roland excelled in choir and scat voices..that were unmatched by the other brands...

I thought that Ketron's drums and bass over-matched the other brands...

But to endorse any instrument across the board as the best sounding keyboard...simply is not true...But, personally we need to choose what works overall for each of us...For some that may be Yamaha...and for many other folks..it will be another brand..

Seem you have no clue at all what a megavoice is, and what we are trying to explain...

Just put any one style of Yamaha up without megavoices... which is the majorrity of their styles... And then setup James best Gigasamples and VST's and compare them.

Yamaha will loose big time.

And if you want to compare styles with megavoices... just send your T2 to someone with the right software and a few hours of time at their hands to convert all those 23 megavoices intoo gigasamples.

With that archeived the MEgavoices will be equall to the megavoices on your T3, but because all other sounds will make your T3 pale in their shadow, the style Mediastation should sound way better.

'Here you are right..
In fact 7 years ago I was working with...let me think...windows3.1 or windows 98??
Ouch..now finally after 7 years with windows Vista we have fixed all and all is working..
Ah..no...sorry..now give Windows 7..
why on windows 7 still 90% of the Vst are not working fine?
Microsoft is comtinue fix his ....OS, like we are here to continue fix and add new features ..'


Ahhhh.... i see now where you are going wrong Dom ! You have been basing your business models on computer systems designed for home and business use.

Here's a tip for you...You probably havent realised this yet and i know this will knock your socks off when you here it. I still marvel at how simple this revelation is.

You are in a completely different market !!!

I know, i know, i know its so astoundingly simple it beats me how we (i mean you ) didnt realise this 7 years ago . its shocking and i was just as surprised as you are now when i realised this 7 years ago :-)

But all is not lost my friend !!!

You might want to spend the next 7 years modeling your business on producing musical instruments that musicians can use the way you said they can...

Oh wait...scratch that ...why mess with a successful formula that you have developed over such a long period of time...Just keep on doing what your doing. I mean you cant argue with 7 years of taking the keyboard market by storm the way you have can you....

If it aint broke dont fix it.

Good luck my friend :-)

Thanks Spalding..
how I sold 5 years ago..I still now continue sell and much more better finally.
Someone there already know what for nice Groove orders i get..
For someone also is available a new pre OS4.2 update for the new features and bug fixed.
Guys..do you get my email?

cheers
update:
the Pre OS 4.2 is also available on GFTP account for testing.

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 04-28-2010).]

Well, the premise was that the Mediastation, with it's vast library of giga sounds, would have no trouble besting a standard Tyros2 mega-voiced style.

This was to be easily achieved, so spending "a few hours" making the Mediastation's gig-samples ready to use seems a long way from simplicity, and probably only achievable, if at all, in the hands of an expert.

Mega voices in a Tyros2 style, cover more than guitar and bass...there are also mega-voiced saxophones, strings, brass, trumpet, to name a few more, which makes the Mediastation's task a lot harder, as if it wasn't that already.

One of Yamaha's strengths is it's mega-voiced styles, so using older Yamaha styles without them, is weaseling out of the original comparison...the Tyros2's styles all have mega-voices, and the initial comparison was with the Tyros2.

Ian

i agree with you,

you can set the velocity on extreme sampler editor to 32 layers and sample the sound, so you will not miss anything.

Another technique is to use your midi events editing. there you can see how each note sounds when you change sound velocity from 0 to 127 in different notes, this way you can very easily find the layers for each note.

make such notation and set the velocity zones as your notation on extreme sampler editor. it takes time but certainly to do



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-28-2010).]

Fran, pardon me, but what the heck does this have to do with the Mediastation using a Tyros2 style, and making it sound better than on the original instrument?

The way the Mediastation is described by it's supporters, pretty well any of the vast gig samples are far better than Yamaha's mega-voices...yet, they can't be used in a style like a mega-voice can be used, without extensive and expert manipulation/editing/programming...and even then, we still haven't heard one style from the product that proves they can.

Face it, the Tyros2's (let alone the T3)accompaniment is light years ahead of what we've heard from the Mediastation...if there is such a style conversion of one of the Tyros2's styles that is better...please post it...you have a Mediastation, don't you?

Ian

Just make a midi file that probes a note with vellocity from 1 to 127 and you can exactly here where the sound are changed.

then sample only the middle vellocity of every sound for every note and stretch it over the correct range.

If you use 32 vellocity seps for sampling your new sound would get really really huge.

Hi ianmcnll.

Rather that wasting your time on nothing but assumptions why don't you just save your breath or offer something constructive while you wait until the demo's are presented.

Every other point that has been made has been clearly proven and is undeniable. You have heard it running sequences, full demo's and solo sounds. Everything works and everything sounds wonderful.

No closed keyboard can compare to the sounds I've used and I dare you to say otherwise.

Your assumption that the arranger won't perform just as well when connected to premium content is just a waste of time. Can't you just wait and and see.

Why not start a conversation on how your own music could benefit from having sounds like those Giga files you heard me using and looking at what else is on the market to buy.

The way your talking it's as if there is some price to win here and your looking to just bitch slap our competitor.

This is an exchange of information. Don't be so negative about it. However this turns out in the end it shouldn't be seen as one side winning.

Regards
James

Excellent.....!!!!!
Going to the studio to install it right now.

James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 04-28-2010).]

32 areas the sound wil be huge, but MS can play huge files. but 32 areas you need few notes and stretch the notes. but second way is better.

MIDI event editor you can find out which notes have the same vilocity zones, you can then stretch this notes.

so far, no e-mail

Thanks Domenico.

Daddy duties have prevented me from testing this update in detail at this moment in time. Got to mind the kids while my wife is at Choir practice.

That said I did get to fire up the Mediastation for 20 minutes.

Extracted the update file and rebooted. No problems at all, keyboard booted up with 4.2 installed. So that was dead easy.

Selected a Giga Sound and noticed instantly that all my effects had been loaded and recalled. Perfect...!!!

Switched to COMBI mode and selected a few COMBI's I had made. No problems whatsoever. Everything loaded perfectly.

Unfortunately that's as far as I've got but so far this is looking really good. Looking forward to getting some more time in on this when I don't have two kids hanging out of me

Kind Regards
James.

theres probably a bug AFG ;-) ( you know i am kidding with you right ? )

i couldnt resist :-)

'Thanks Spalding..
how I sold 5 years ago..I still now continue sell and much more better finally.
Someone there already know what for nice Groove orders i get..'

ahhh yes the miraculous turnaround of sales for the Liontracs Product. The Groove thingy. I wonder how that happened ???

Who said this Dom? ...go on make your best guess , I know you can do it !!

'Want to laugh?
removed the arranger styles module from the OS installer and we get the contract distribution.
Another probe that the arranger keyboards will dead really soon, they want only Sounds Workstation!'

Did you guess correct ? Seems this fella finally got the idea that his product sold better when he got rid of the weakest element of his product, the bit NOBODY WANTED . The bit that did not live up to its promises and suddenly he makes some decent sales...

But unfortunately thats not the end of the story.... the same fella then allows HIS ONLY distributor to put up the most dog awful demos they could on their website for the world to see and dragged back the worst element of his product again !

Can you believe that Dom ???? I know....neither could I.

oh well there is no tellin some people eh ?

But you wouldnt make a foolish mistake like that would you....oh wait.....;-)

Some days i come back to this forum just to see if you have posted something. You genuinely make me smile.

Ian, here is your quote that I responded too....
"Mega voices in a Tyros2 style, cover more than guitar and bass...there are also mega-voiced saxophones, strings, brass, trumpet, to name a few more, which makes the Mediastation's task a lot harder, as if it wasn't that already."

Actually Ian this was your quote I responded to.....but there are many other quotes of yours about the Mega tones, that you highly acclaim to be the best...

No, not the best...just better than what's in the styles of the Mediastation.

Ian

My assumptions...your excuses.

This thread has been more than entertaining, especially with all the defensive remarks, and all kinds of exculpations.

You're only new at it compared to some, but you seem to have caught on rather quickly.

Ian

Ciao Dom,

thanks m8 will download it now.

Dennis

What excuses ?

I've already uploaded 2 videos showing the arranger functioning and sounding like a a normal closed arranger. If you want to see it running on premium content then you will just have to wait as I have to assemble my premium content GM bank to do this in the first place. I'm even writing a computer program for the keyboard which I will give away for free that aids the end users in creating their own premium content GM banks.

So give me a break man. It's not as if I'm sitting on my hands here doing nothing.



Caught on rather quickly to what ?
It's like your trying to imply I'm playing some game here ? Sorry but I think your being very unfair.

James.

Wow, this is better than Xtreme fighting. Waaaayyyy more blood. Not much 'guts' though.



chas

Sorry James...I guess I'm a bit impatient...it's been only several years since the claims about the Mediastation's arranger.

Most of us were aware it played VST's rather well...it was the arranger section that failed to live up to the claims.

Ian

Fran, answer me this question, if you will?

If you haven't already tried it, why don't you play a style from your G-70 on your Mediastation, after re-voicing it to the latter's best sounds, and tell us what instrument makes it sound the best?

Ian

here something like megavoices provided for free by
http://www.pettinhouse.com in kontakt format

link:
http://www.pettinhouse.com/html/download.html

you can see the first one is a movie of the sounds.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-28-2010).]

____________________________________________
I've already uploaded 2 videos showing the arranger functioning and sounding like a a normal closed arranger. If you want to see it running on premium content then you will just have to wait as I have to assemble my premium content GM bank to do this in the first place. I'm even writing a computer program for the keyboard which I will give away for free that aids the end users in creating their own premium content GM banks.

____________________________________________


James, I just want to ensure that you don't think I am trying to usurp you on this

I know you are very busy and the work you have done so far is brilliant. As I have said to you, it ws your work that inspired me to return to the MS

This little exercise I was proposing was trying to help you out and take some pressure off you from all the nagging that was going on.

I am aware of how long it can take to set up just the "right" GM bank. After all there are only 128 slots....So I do understand the frustration that can come from folks continually asking the same questions.

So if you would prefer me to back away from this in the short term and let you complete your project first, I am happy to do so.

Just as I am happy to continue on

I really do not know where the hell some people here get the notion that excuses are being made anywhere???!!!

You have NEVER claimed the arranger was "better" than closed arrangers, I know I certainly haven't....

So how can we make an excuse for statements we never made??? Beats me.

Waht we CAN do is use the same style midi data provided by Yamaha, match the same genre of instruments within the GIGA/VST banks and see what result we get.

I think it will be a great sounding style, albeit a bit DIFFERENT to the native Yamaha style.

That was my plan anyway.

Dennis

"Fran, answer me this question, if you will?

If you haven't already tried it, why don't you play a style from your G-70 on your Mediastation, after re-voicing it to the latter's best sounds, and tell us what instrument makes it sound the best?

Ian"


Ian, I have already done that...the G70 won hands down...

but.....I only have used the default Yamaha vst...and not the "best" sounds possible...
I used this combination with Live Styler..

Now that I have the new Arranger program, that plays native Ketron as well as Yamaha styles without conversion...I want to finish a better GM bank than the Yamaha VST offered..I think NI Bandstand will be a lot better than the Yamaha VST..(2 gigs compared to 2 megs sample size)...

For as often as I care to use styles...even the Yamaha vst was good enough to get thru the seldom used arranger feature in the band...

As I have mentioned often, I rather use a stripped down style or even just the drums and play left hand bass....In this respect the MS Q-Arranger works for me (with Giga samples)..

Even though I am not salivating over the need to use arranger play..It will be interesting to me..to develop a better GM map....also for the playback of sequences..(that I find a better performing method )...

Of course neither of you made that statement...no one thinks you did.

Lionstracs simply stated that the Mediastation could load/play a Tyros2 style and, using it's superior VST giga sounds, easily make it sound better than it did on the original instrument.

That's what I'm talking about.

This has been going on for several years, and it's no wonder people are skeptical, since not one demo to prove this claim was ever posted.

However, now according to some, the Mediastation's "superior" VST's should sound better than Yamaha's mega-voices...that may or may not be so, because, once again, no one has posted a demo to prove it...from those people, all we're getting is excuses.

Ian

Thanks Ian, I appreciate your clarification, as I am sure James does , but reading some posts from a "select few" makes me wonder sometimes??

We are only trying to give folks a better understanding of the Media Station, not enter in to some contest.

And I KNOW ( now) that that is not where you are coming from

But some of the negative, not to mention long-winded negative posts , gives me pause to scratch my head and wonder "why should I bother"...

As for the VST's sounding better than the Mega, well, in a way that is true.

The core samples used by a VST WILL sound better, after all they are multi gig samples (in some cases) up against samples measured in tens of mb, so they would WANT to sound better.

BUT, the way Yamaha have programmed the multi velocity switching, perfectly matching either plucked or strummed notes, blown notes, pizz and legato notes within a style, make them the standout that they are. The same can be said (to a lesser level) for the Korg RX as well. Sadly I think Roland have missed the boat entirely

Anyhoo, again, I appreciate your comments

Dennis

no miden i do not agree with you about roland.

they has on Roland Va- arranger keyboards V-Tones and they sounding very good, compare them with Yamaha Mega Voices.

read this from roland VA-7/76 V-Arranger Keyboard Brochure:

And exceptional sounds we call “V” Tones that, for the first time
ever, do not stop at the generation of the most vibrant instruments ever but also
provide all the “noises” typically associated with these sounds.
Take, for instance, the acoustic guitars. By playing a low note (using the Octave
function), you can produce the typical scraping noises. Press the key next to it,
and the virtual guitarist starts knocking on the guitar body. Baffling! And how
about a trumpet sound that is muted when you strike the keys lightly, and changes into
a full-blown trumpet at higher velocities? Or a cymbal where you can clearly tell
where the stick hits the bell or the cymbal proper? Or real vibrato instead of a
mechanic-sounding LFO, and breath noises that take your breath away? Hearing
is believing.

this a short text but V-tones on Roland-VA sound amazing good. V-drums on Roland VA- are very good, i think even better then yamaha and korg



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-28-2010).]

I had a VA76 and a G70 and a GW8, and a PSR3000 and Tyros 1 and 2 and a Motif XS and a S70XS, and a SD1+ and a Midjay and a Gem XS module and a Korg PA1 and PA2.

So I think I have a bit of knowledge about how I think they all sound

No doubt the larger core samples are better than the smaller mega-voice samples, but in the case of the accompaniment, as you have already stated, the mega-voices are set up to standout when used for styles...which was their intended purpose all along.

This was what was confusing me and several others...the boast was that the Mediastation's VST's would sound better playing a Tyros2's style, than the mega-voices used by the Tyros2.

The VST's in the Mediastation, as far as I know, were not intended to be used in styles...Yamaha's mega-voices were made specifically for that purpose...hearing an intro on a Yamaha style using several mega-voices such as bass, guitar, strings, saxophone, etc, is pretty impressive....even my S910 sounds quite awesome.

So, until the Mediastation's VST's can do what Yamaha's mega-voices do so well, it's a bit of a stretch for some people to claim they are better for that particular purpose.

Yes, the Mediastation is an impressive VST player...as an arranger, as of today, and according to Fran, it doesn't even do better than an old G-70.

Hopefully, with the proper VST and some tweaking, it can be made to sound more impressive...maybe not with the same detail allowed by Yamaha's mega-voices, but formidable in it's own way.

Ian

Hi Dennis.



Heck no, not at all mate.
Don't let anything I'm doing stop you at all. Things are kind of crazy here at the moment anyway.



A lot of what's being said is very unfair. It's like there is some sick hope that everything would have fallen flat on it's face. Oh well. ….

Cheers
James.

I do not want, make you angry!

You forget the MS in your list, lol

about roland:

but maby i am still a little roland fan, lol

roland arrangers are just a little different from other brands.

They have many strong sides when going on styles and sounds, sampling only makes them weak compared to Korg or yamaha costum voices.
becouse after they introduced Roland Va- with variphrase sampling they removed sampler
with G-70, so big mistake

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-28-2010).]

Ditto that!!

D

So people after 7 years still do not get the concept of the MS. When you hear statements like "mediastation's VST" it shows a lack of understanding.
An MS does not come with premium VST content.

Of course it doesn't come with premium VST content...they have to be added...everyone knows at least that much about it.

But, thanks for the information all the same...perhaps there are a few who don't know it as well as you do.

BTW, do you have a Mediastation? If not, are you considering the purchase of one?

Ian

Ian, don't quote me out of context..

Here is what I said...

Ian, I have already done that...the G70 won hands down...

but.....I only have used the default Yamaha vst...and not the "best" sounds possible...
I used this combination with Live Styler..

Now that I have the new Arranger program, that plays native Ketron as well as Yamaha styles without conversion...I want to finish a better GM bank than the Yamaha VST offered..I think NI Bandstand will be a lot better than the Yamaha VST..(2 gigs compared to 2 megs sample size)...

Yes, you are correct...it doesn't sound as good as your old G-70.

Ian

PS...you aren't going to try and tell me your G-70 is new?

My G70 is newer than the Yamaha VST I used and also my original MediaStation...

How old is your G-70? Didn't you already have it when you got the Mediastation?

Or, did you have two Mediastations, the first being replaced by an upgraded, or newer, model?

Ian

Not one single musical example since my last post.

NOT ONE...

And sorry to my amnesiac fans, but I have, in the past provided a fair amount of music in style mode on the G70. Sure you have to go back a few years, but it's still the same G70!

I've ALREADY shown you mine. Where the hell is YOURS?

Nowhere.... that's where.

Once again, the MS boys write and write and write. Heck, a typewriter could do the job just as well as an MS if this is all we have to go on..! I wonder if any of them can actually play at all? C'mon, genesys, c'mon, AFG. Just for ONCE, show us you actually have any decent music made on the MS in style mode.

What is the most insulting of anything you say is this hogwash about it being easy to make an MS sound better than a closed arranger. It is patently obvious that none of you have. You would be posting example after example, instead of excuse after excuse.

It is obvious that it is ANYTHING but easy. You certainly haven't achieved it, and just how LONG have you all had your MS's for? YEARS...

Ah, but it is JUST coming, isn't it? Same as it was last year, and the year before, and the year before...

Hi James and Dennis. There has always been this kind of rambunctious banter here and sometimes it gets too serious but for the most part it is just swordplay and a bit of fun.

But the comparrisons that you two are going to undertake on our behalf is actually quite important because it could open up the way to create a standard set of tools whereby the MS can be genuinely used as a great arranger and finally shrug off the terrible reputation it currently has in terms of its arranger abilities and the way it has been promoted without any evidence to support its manufcaturers claims.

If the GM soundbank remapping you are doing actually does make the converted styles sound better wholesale this could be the answer Dom so desperately needs to make the arranger element of his products a success.(and its work he should have done himself in the first place).

Please continue doing the work you are doing both of you . There can only be upsides to this .

1. either the MS will be too unworkable as an arranger because of the time it might take to convert styles that sound better than a closed arranger but that can be played like a normal arranger in a performance . This way the product can be correctly promoted to the correct buyers who are fully aware of its arranger limitations without any misinformation and dishonest sales embellishment.

2 The arranger works well and all the remapping work you have done can act as a template for DOM to bundle Bandstand or whatever premapped and installed on the MS ready to go. Thats exactly what Neko did and their sales have gone from strength to strength(thats the businessman in me coming out again. sorry Dom )

3. if the MS does not turn out to be a great arranger it will have pretty much Zero effect on its sales as no one in their right mind is currently buying it for its arranger abilities.

4. If it works well then Dom will legitimately pick up additional arranger sales

5. If Dom wont bundle some VST products with the MS re mapped to the GM banks JAMES COULD offer his services on a consultancy basis to either Dom or direct to MS users to help them remapp their MS with whatever VST they choose.


From where i am sitting there is no failure here for the MS. Only potential upsides.

Best of luck you guys and once again cheers for attempting to settle this matter with demos instead of more words.

Ah i wish i had one MS...then i would've proved many points...doing things by actually
measuring the time and recording the whole process on cam while doing and talking...

BTW, were I anal enough about it, I could go back with the search engine and provide post after post after post where not only Dom (bless his optimistic little heart!) but just about everybody else that either had an MS or bought into the hype said it was the 'future' of arrangers, it would sound better than any closed arranger, all other arrangers were 'obsolete', yada yada yada...

If you don't believe me, you are probably one of those that actually wrote it! The rest of us CERTAINLY remember this hype. Trouble is, it is STILL being touted, with no more musical example than was ever posted in the past.

241 posts, and NOTHING worth listening to in style mode. That's got to count for SOMETHING, doesn't it?

Diki...after 7 years that you continue stress here...MAY you ONE time post ONE of your G-70 demos?????
Hey..ONE..I dont ask for 5-10 demos...JUST ONE that we can finally value IF you are able to play one arranger or not.
How many times a lot of guys here asked ONE demo from you and you continue ignore???
Com on...let us see what you can make...only yada yada and blame is to much easy...
Move and open your ass now or better that you close you forever your mouth!

So thats, what, about an hour or so??!!

So patience is one of your strong points then Diki??

D

If some one can find a post where someone claimed that the MS plays styles OOTB that sound like a TOTL closed arranger please provide a link.
Because all that has been stated on that issue has been misrepresented statements.
And, does any one seriously believe that if James or any one else puts up a demo of a Yamaha style “sounding better” than the original, took 15 minutes to modify, took $500 worth of TOTL VSTs that would silence the detractors? And do you think they would run out and buy an MS?

You can be assured that if James or any one else puts up the most perfect demo that is satisfactory to the detractors (which will never happen) they are not going to run an buy an MS.
And since Diki got it wrong, I do not have an MS.

Ian, yes the original MS I had was replaced with the newer designed case and components..so in reality..there were two MS's..

because diki did not read my comments on page two of this thread. then here again one of my comments on his behavior:
-------------------------------------------
D-I-K-I:

1-Diki be careful with your ridiculous language
use.

Sorry to say this. with that language use is only one place YOU diki cAN mAKE SENSE, and that's the zoo FOR YOU.


and if you ever change your behavior read this: http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/021126.html

---------------------------------------------------

2-you have no appreciation for people. it's not about the MS or other tool here, but how you approach people. James has played in a short time demos. but you have no appreciation for it.

We have a saying in our country:

The best response against an to ignorant people, is the answer of silence.
a man is respectful and keep secret his mistakes when he speaks less.but the more he opens his mouth the more mistakes he makes known.

sorry but you talk a lot. Every time you talk about something, i see how well people have thought to make that saying.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I repeat this because you put my name in your text with your own wrong and accused words and disgusting imagination and idea.

but for change behavior is never late, even with your age your age.



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-29-2010).]

stop it genesys, you really are too much, its like hearing a politician backtrack on promises they made before they became elected but more funny :-). Nobody said anything about any style from the MS sounding out of the box better than a yammy or hell even a casio or bontempi. You know this entire debate has been about the ease (or not) with which an MS as an arranger in style play can be made to sound better than a closed arranger. Surely you have caught the theme of this thread ???? Where did out of the box come from ???????

Even Dom would not be so foolish as to make that kind of boast . You know what has been said and implied by Dom and i am genuinely surprised that you are now making the statements that you are making .

I dont know if its deliberate to derail what Dennis and James are trying to do for the rest of us or not but this is actually quite a beneficial discussion here and it doesnt help when you throw in smoke screens and red herrings that have nothing to do with the debate and you must know that out of the box styles from the MS (which arnt even created on the MS) is an irrelevance in this discussion.

And for the record , i am not a detractor of the MS or any instrument. I want to see the thing work like it has been advertised it would /should. I just have a hard time swallowing a manufacturers claims when they have not been able to back it up and none of its customers have either over the last 7 years.

You cant blame me for being just a little doubtful especially as i cant access an MS myself without paying for one up front.

buy one if you can. You will not regret it. I think other MS users also will say this to you.

Actually I was wondering that myself. Yesterday I listen to many demos on Youtube people playing the MS and they all sound just awful. Even kids who put a demo on Youtube playing a casio or a bontempi have a better sound quality. How the hell can you expect me to buy a MS if Lionstracs can't even put a video on Youtube with a decent sound quality and demo.

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 04-29-2010).]

FranN....why put down someones purchase?
If they enjoy their unit and it makes them happy so be it. There are no rules in music gear...buy it, use it, enjoy it, trade it, sell it, it's the owners prerogative and has nothing to prove to anyone. No one is pressuring a person to buy one.There are many many pieces in the GEAR Puzzle...if this piece doesn't fit simply try another. At this time I enjoy Yamaha KB units....
I'm not saying it's my last arranger but for now I'm very happy with it on stage.
Read thru all 7 pages of this thread and you'll start scratching your head.....I'd rather be playing what makes ME happy.

Isn't that what The MS people do to other brands. Putting down my Korg. Saying the MS is superior to Korg and Yamaha. Do you think I like that. Making claims that they are better then closed keyboards. They started it and I say what I think.



[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 04-29-2010).]

Fran let them all say what they want....the BOTTOM Line always is lets hear what you got? Talk is very cheap.... listen and form an opinion its as simple as that. The player operator, on any unit is what always matters. It's only a keyboard why get upset?...life is way to short.

Enjoy your music.

Frans you missed an important thing, we never stated that Korg and Yamaha have bad instrumetns...

Most people are better off with closed instruments anyway, as they just want to start playing music right out of the box, and have a near perfect sounding style under the next button for every song they want to play.

But then there are people that love to toy around with their settings to make things sound even better, they love to tweak their sounds beyound even the possibilities of a Korg. They want to have the broadest sound sellection possible and the highest quallity.

For those people there is open instruments. And yes when you put your time and knowledge inthere they must sound better, but at a fair cost of time invested.

So where does that leave me... I want the best of all worlds...
- Great sounding styles straight from the box
- Best sound quallity
- Karma
- Run my VST's

I am still not convinced mediastation will suit all my needs.

So either i might purchase a Lionstracs Groove X7 and a Korg M3 rack.

Or go back to my orriginal plan of using a Kurzweil PC3 with both an Audya 4 module and an openlabs Dbeat(when they finally support KARMA).


Well i have some time left to decide because i'll have to wayt till late this year till my savings come free, and i have the cash to spend on this. (Was orriginally going to buy a Wersi, but that dream was crushed some time ago)

I have a lot of experience tough with VSt's and Software, enough to know that a VST, or an extensive Giga sample is lightyears ahead of the current close arranger models. But not far enough ahead to make a medicore player on mediastation sound better then a great player on a T3 or PA2X.

I am nothing but a medicore player at best, that really enjoys making music at home. And playing with my toys makes me relax from the daily stress at work.

DNJ You're right.

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 04-29-2010).]

All this crap talk and no offense but i bet 80% of you dont even know how to lower a volume
on a track ona style...and when we sadly know that is the case then why the hell even bother
talk about arrangers of 5000$ that to use are s[ace shuttle and we'll never buy them.
A lot of people have NOE CLUE of technology and still talk about it...sad...this is sick on here.

where have you seen that MS/Groove users have said that Roland-Korg-Yamaha-Ketron-Wersi.............

are bad products?

MS users all use other products from Roland-Korg-Yamaha-Ketron, or .................................. ..

reverse other arranger fans of Roland-Korg Yamaha-Ketron-Wersi..............................

argue that MS/Groove is bad product, this is not true.



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-29-2010).]

Like I said, for all my amnesiac fans...

I've posted stuff in the past, all of it (or at least some) is still up at Roland-Arranger.com. Some of it in style mode some in SMF with a guitarist. Just because you can't be BOTHERED to remember it, Dom, or look for it, AFG, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

However, once again, it's telling that, rather than simply provide the asked for proof of your claims, you choose to attack (ill-informed, at that) the poster that asks for it. What DIFFERENCE does it make whether I've posted anything at all? This thread is about YOUR arranger, not mine. You are the ones making the claim of superiority. Back it up. Or SHUT UP.

This isn't a question of a few HOURS between posts. This is a question of a few YEARS before a decent demo. Some of these fanboys have had their MS's for YEARS. You can't honestly be serious to expect ANY of them to claim that, despite apparently being the best thing since sliced bread, NOT ONE of them has had enough pride in it to be bothered to record it and post it... despite YEARS of ownership.

About the only one actually posting any style based music on this thread is Fran, and bless him, even he acknowledges how poor it is. And gigs with a closed arranger if he is going to use styles. Everybody else just TALKS. And talks, and talks, and talks. And THAT is all the proof I need.

Because, IF you had a decent style demo, you would have posted it already...

QED.

We have a saying in our country:

The best response against an to ignorant people, is the answer of silence.
a man is respectful and keep secret his mistakes when he speaks less.but the more he opens his mouth the more mistakes he makes known.

sorry but you talk a lot. Every time you talk about something, i see how well people have thought to make that saying.

--------------------------

my words are now on automatic pilot, lololol

because you involve me again with your own wrong imagination and wrong words about something.

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-29-2010).]

So clear it up for me, AFG... is it ME or you that is supposed to remain silent?

Because your post seems to indicate that it is the one responding to the ignorance that is supposed to stay silent, yet here you are, posting once again!

I guess you mean it is supposed to be me responding to YOUR ignorance that is supposed to remain silent, yes?

Or are you referring to the MUSICAL silence by MS owners?

if the person continues with his words and deeds. we remember him again only this well-known saying:

The best response against an to ignorant people, is the answer of silence.
a man is respectful and keep secret his mistakes when he speaks less.but the more he opens his mouth the more mistakes he makes known.



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-29-2010).]

And you think your ranting and raving is really going to make one bit of difference?

You think it will all magically appear and happen JUST because Diki wishes it?

Dom has made great improvements with the OS for the Media Station which I think will make a huge difference. You forget I have not had one for a year, my old one I got back yesterday, and the graphics card (required to run the new OS) is yet to arrive.

What I will say to you is that if you keep going like this, the forum can forget about any further input from me. At least on THIS forum (SZ).

To be blunt, just shutup and wait, just like everyone else is doing.

https://www.yousendit.com/download/OHo1OU1ha0RRYTlFQlE9PQ


Here is Bandstand VST playing a converted Korg style on MediaStation..

https://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=OHo1OU1ha0RRYTlFQlE9PQ

Forgot to mention bass inversion is on...

And this has just turned into the same old stuff I have heard a thousand times before ... I'm bored now so lets just close it down ... until next time and we know there will be a next time.