Audya?? What is all the fuss about..?

Well I think I am going to open a can of worms maybe, so be it. But honestly... Really, what is all the fuss about with the Audya?? That's all I seem to read about.

I know that demo's shouldn't be the ultimate judge but it's the only way I am able to hear the Audya, and as much as I do think it's a lovely and impressive keyboard, it's really nothing special and owning either the Korg or Yamaha is JUST as rewarding...

did you come along to any of the demos last week?

[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-06-2010).]

I'd love to have done! I bet I would have been wowed! Just like I've been wowed by other keyboards too..

So then, you cannot possibly know wether it has anything special to offer or not.

I don't believe any ammount of posting in yet another Audya thread will make the slightest bit of difference to you. If you really wanted to know the answer you would have gone to see the Audya or at least took note of comments from people like Jim. (nightlife)

I'm sorry, but if you can't hear how much better the drums and guitars are than MIDI arrangers, you are likely to think that there really isn't that much in it.

For many people playing live, having the rhythm section have same impact as real drums is the ultimate goal. Ketron's live loop drums can't GET any 'real-er'

At home, or in a low level background situation, this might not be what you are looking for. But want to make an impact, AFAIK, there's nothing that comes even close, all around.

Not that this ALONE is enough to make it the 'best' at everything, but if a great 'live' sound is what you are after, there isn't much competition. If this were priced $1500 lower, I think the vast majority of arranger players would be buying one. Sadly, it's out of reach to most. But I'd buy one in a flash if it were down close to the price point (new) of my G70...

There's a LOT of stuff in the Audya that hasn't yet got much of a demo workout. REAL arpeggiators, for the techno crowd. Key-triggered loops for the hiphop and rap crowds. Looks like Ketron are at least CONSIDERING some kind of 'Chord Sequencer' for the two handed amongst us When the software to incorporate your own audio loops gets added, the possibilities multiply radically.

You want the 'same old, same old', best to stick to the 'same old, same old'. Ketron have added several VERY musical functions not seen on a hardware arranger yet, and beefed up some of the things that others only have a LITTLE (four break/fills, for instance, instead of the paltry one), and many of its' best features lie hidden in the fine print of the specs.

But that 'live' sound ought to be hitting you between the eyes. If you can't hear THAT, it's no wonder it fails to impress...

Danny,

just my thoughts...

if you must ask, and if you're not impressed , the AUDYA is not for you

everyone has different needs and tastes,

if you want your arranger to sound "like a band" and kick some @ss through your PA, then AUDYA rocks.

i talk from experience, as i use both the G-70 and XD-3 (old Ketron), my audience responds more to Ketron sound,
"responds more" as in more people on dance floor,
this is playing same song, same style,

so everyone uses arranger differently,

i play social parties, weddings, 200+ on weekends and can't wait to get my AUDYA4 and retire my XD3

Danny, if you can find an AUDYA near you, try it out :-)

I really appreciate the feedback and yes I think ultimately I "should" be hearing the Audya in a Live situation. Maybe I wasn't being fair with my initial post, that's only because of my lack of experience with the Audya. I hear amazing quality music being expressed all the arrangers that I think maybe it's certainly particulars that can seperate them from each other, with the Audya it's no doubt the drums, but the style arrangements themselves I'm not so sure.

I can definately hear the difference in the drums to other boards, they are brilliant.

I've been here before. The Audya is reminiscent to the days when the X1 was launched and projected to the point where I it converted me to purchase one. The X1 was brilliant, everything I wanted...almost. I just found that it the styles were heavily centered on Latin & Ballo Liscio, it was superb for that.

The main reason why I started this thread is because I want to get a second keyboard in the future and I want it to be an Audya, but I need it to be a great all rounder rather than something that's exceptional in just one or two area's. This is why I really like the T3, it's a fantastic all rounder.

The Audya has excellent bass and drums...very "live" sounding...then again, if you want great "live" sounding bass and drums AND other parts as well, in a style, you'd be best off getting a second hand G-70/E-80...you'd save a bundle, and have a far more "finished" instrument.

In my opinion, the Audya is limited in "overall" excellence, especially for the high asking price...to my ears, it shines in only two areas...bass and drums...the guitar parts in the style aren't that impressive, but I'm used to mega voices, so perhaps they do strike a chord (pardon the pun) with some who aren't.

In my opinion, it's a lot of money for bass and drums.

There doesn't appear to be much third party style support either.

Ian

are you serious?

you need to answer the same question as Danny. When have you played the audya?

I like to turn down the drums and bass and just play with the live guitars, they are incredible and its like sitting next to a skilled guitarist.

Yeah it's very expensive but I don't think there is anything like it. My Tyros 2 sounds like plastic after playing an Audya. Darn it Don- why did you let me play yours!

Ian

really. ?

Just bass and drums?
Have you played an AudyA?
Have you listened to the audio guitars on the accomp?

I love my G-70. But to say it sounds "live".? Um. No
you think rolands guitars are better? No
yamahas accomp guitars better?

But I guess it's your opinion


And to say all audya has is bass and drums is ignorant.
IMO

Yes, of course I'm serious....why else would I make such a comment? Certainly not in jest.

The bass and drums are great...credit where credit is due, but the guitars are lackluster compared to them.

But, I've heard Diki's G-70, and it is it's equal as far as "live" sounding bass and drums (perhaps it was the player)...the Audya does a little better on the guitars, but not by much.

Maybe, with time, they will make it better.

The Audya, in my opinion, is essentially a very pricey two-trick pony...and, from the dearth of positive posts about it on this forum, apparently one that still has fleas.

Ian

I've heard the guitars demonstrated....as far as playing an Audya, have you played one?

The guitars were good, but no better than what I hear with Korg's DNC and Yamaha's mega voices.

The "live" bass and drums aren't good enough to warrant such a ridiculously high price...and for a instrument that not quite finished...shame.

I've heard equally as good "live" bass and drums done on a G-70.

Ian

so when did you get to spend some time with the Audya to draw this conclusion?

or are you judging it on hearsay or internet demos?



[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-06-2010).]

But your opinion is that the Audya is better.

Months ago I have listened to an Aydya in the Music store here in The Hague and it sounded very good. But I also listened to the Tyros 3 and the Korg PA 800 and I didn't find the Audya sound better. Qua drums the Ketron sounds the best but the solo sounds are not for me.

Ian
YES. I've played an Audya. This past summer in Portugal

Ian
we ate not talking about lead guitar sounds
we are talking about accomp guitars. Audio guitars

Diki. Please compare the G-70 accomp. Midi guitars to the Audyas real live guitars. And which YOU think sound better

maybe Ian, You prefer to hear midi guitas over real Audio guitars....each his own

I've heard the demos.

Look pal, I know you need to defend the Audya...I understand your position, but please, I know what I hear...the bass and drums are great...the guitar parts are just okay.

Maybe they'll improve them so that I will like them but, right now, from what I've heard, they just don't impress...Korg's DNC and Yamaha's mega voices are far more flexible to work with, and sound every bit as good, or better.

Ian

I have an Audya, Roland E80, E50, and had a Yamaha S900 all sitting side by side in my office. Trust me, the Audya will make you want to throw rocks at the Yamaha, and as much as I like the Rolands, I don't turn them on since I got the Audya.
Only thing I prefer on the Yamaha is a few of the lead guitar sounds and some sax sounds. The Yamaha vocal harmonizer makes me want to gag, and the drums are not any better than Casio. But that's o.k. if you like them, or have gotten so used to them that they sound right to you. They seem to be the same drum sounds and the same harmonizer that debuted in the PSR8000 a dozen or so years ago.
As impatient as I am for the Audya upgrade to 4.0, I'm happy playing it as is. I don't recall Yamaha EVER coming up with a free improvement of any kind, as Ketron, Roland and Korg all have done.

The ironic thing is, Yamaha will probably be around when all the others are gone because they continue to allow us to pay for an entire new model every couple of years in order to get a few minor new things.
Of course these are just my opinions. They just happen to be right.
DonM

Well Lee, it's my opinion that the Audya's guitar parts, in the accompaniment, sound okay, but are nothing special...the bass and drums are special...the guitars, less so.


In fact, it was a few of Diki's tunes that he sent to me, that formed my opinion about the G-70's bass and drums.

The Audya may be special to you, and that's fine...I think you've been selling yourself on it the past few months anyway...but, my opinion is objective, and based on what I've heard.

I also think that Audya will have a tough time with extra styles and third party support.

Ian

But what about the sampled sounds. The sounds you use to play your solos. Korg and Yamaha are the best sounding IMO.

the Audya doesn't need to be defended..it needs to be heard, and if we are going to make sweeping statements, it seems to me that we need to be able to do so with at least a modicum of authority. internet demos can't compare with a hands on approach through a good PA.

Question. If the Ketron Audya is so an fantastic keyboard then why oh why is the Yamaha Tyros 3 the bestseller at the moment.

probably because they are dumping them out cheap making way for tyros 4

only joking. The Tyros is a very nice keyboard. Here in the UK there are alot of ex-organists that don't play so great and need the assistance the Tyros gives in helping them to pick a registration by song name and then sounding great without having to do much.

Until the Audya I couldn't bring myself to play an arranger keyboard or organ after spending so long with live drummers, guitarists, bassists and Vintage keys but I fully appreciate Tyros has a very strong and loyal fanbase here in Britain.




[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-06-2010).]

If you look on youtube you will see that a lot of young people play on a Tyros3, Korg PA500/800 and the Yamaha PSR series. Almost no video of people who play a Ketron.

I heard the Audya mixing midi guitar and audio guitar parts...not very convincing Don....definitely a reason to throw more than rocks at the Audya...it begins with "s" and ends with "t" and I'm not talking about soot.

It's like one guitar player uses a Tele to play the major and minor chords and may be a seventh, and then another player, with a different Tele playing the extra notes for the more complex chords.

Now, that's okay if your chording is limited to simple chords, but for those able to play the more complex types, it would be a let down.

This non-homogeneous sound might slip by if you turn the bass and drums up loud enough when playing live, but it sounds pitiful when the guitar parts are exposed.

The advantage of midi guitar parts, whether they be mega, DNC, or GM/GS/XG is that the guitar sounds like it was played by one player.

You can get away with the bass and drums being audio...the bass is only single notes...but, sadly, the guitar parts require more, and fail.

Perhaps, like me with my Yamaha, you get used to the sound after a while, but it sure stands out to someone not used to it, and like it or not, it is not realistic.

It's a half-baked workaround.

Ian

It doesn't matter to me who is best, I really could not care less. But if we are giving opinions...

The Audya is the best live band sounding keyboard I've ever heard. And if you are a one man band, what do you want to sound like? A LIVE BAND.

The drums are incredible. The bass is as incredible. I can't believe the lines this dude plays.

And as for guitars, there are styles that I simply scratch my head... is that not a live guitar playing? No, it's not, it's that keyboard! It's simply amazing.

I like my Yamaha s900, I really do, on certain styles, it really shines. But overall, it cannot hold a candle to the Audya. If Ketron would get their act together, they could double their sales. It is that good. It makes me relish what the future will bring, say, five years from now... it's exciting to hear such great sounds.

I bet this makes some people mad but I have to call it as I see it. Ketron... please get your act together.

And as for too much Audya stuff, that stems from a couple of people who have nothing better to do that start new threads. Really, it does get old.

EDIT: I thought I would add a gripe. I don't know if it is my limited knowledge or what, but the Audya, I hear odd chord voicings. I have tried to fix this, and maybe it's just me, but it keeps happening. I don't like that.

[This message has been edited by SemiLiveMusic (edited 04-06-2010).]

I don't think Ketron have a Future. Not with these prices. Look at the economy. Every brand brings out cheaper very good sounding keyboards. Ketron not. I think they will not survive.

Got to disagree at least PARTIALLY with you, Ian. Yes, I think that Yamaha and Korg's acoustic guitars in the style section come close to the Audya, have FAR better flexibility and editability, etc. (mind you, I think some of their electric rock and blues guitars have the edge with the Audya) but I'll still give the Audya the edge based on sound alone.

But in the drums and bass, as much as I like my G70, I'm afraid I have to give the nod to the SOUND of the Audya. Hi-hats are better (no more closed, half open, open fixed samples), snare has more variation in strike tone, toms are better, and the percussion... that is to die for compared to a G70..! Bass has a lot more nuance, great round sound (I never liked my G70's bass sound until I got the SRX-07 for it). I think as one of the MOST fervent G70 evangelists here, I can speak pretty much from experience...

BUT.... My reservations about being able to EDIT those styles, change a rock kit to a brush kit with one button, change a steel guitar to a nylon one still stand. I think that one of Ketron's strengths is not necessarily the machine itself, but a lot to do with the quality of their style programmers. Combine great audio drums, percussion, bass and guitar with well crafted and balanced styles, and you have a winner. IF... you are prepared to leave things where they are.

Me, I'm more of a 'tweaker'. Makeup/Cover Tools is the ONE feature feature anyone with ANYTHING other than a Roland (and even the GW8 crowd ought to want it, too) ought to be screaming for at the top of their lungs! Instant revoicing from any genre of instruments to any other, then stupid easy fine tuning from that point onwards. It TRIPLES your style selection, because any style can easily be made to sound completely different with the most minuscule of efforts.

Which is all most arranger users (me included!) generally have time or smarts for

But the SOUND of the Audya has amazing possibilities. We haven't yet got the promised user loop capabilities yet, which will open up a vast area of new sound (can't wait to hear some decent hiphop or techno using those), it has a REAL arpeggiator (something we've been screaming for for years, at least the younger players here ), key triggered loops, and many things no-one is excited about in the least... but are quite revolutionary by arranger standards. It's not as if Live drums and guitars are the ONLY thing the Audya got going for it.

I have to admit, Ian, if it weren't so stupidly bloody expensive, I'd go for one in a flash. Not sure if it could REPLACE my G70, as I tend to love that as much or more for its' live band flexibility rather than as an out and out arranger, but the Audya would possibly end up being my favorite arranger for the live drums... warts and all.

Perhaps through a PA it would sound louder, but the mis-matched guitars would also be louder as well.

Can't figure out why a company would do such a half hearted approach to the guitars; probably ran out of development money, a common thing with a small company, but still no excuse to let it reach production.

Most demos done on the Audya have the bass and drums boosted to cover the guitars, but there were a few (some that were put on this forum, in fact) that you could hear the audio and midi mismatches quite plainly.

It ain't going to sound any better through a PA or with me playing it live.

I doubt very much if it will be sold around my area, and, arrangers are very popular in this neck of the woods...it's just too much money for too little refinement.

Ian

That's okay buddy...I don't mind...we do disagree now and then.

Still, my opinion stands...I did think the G-70's bass and drums were the Audya's equal...they sounded just as "live" to me.

As far as buying an Audya...nope...and it wouldn't be the price...it would be the guitar mis-match that would do me in.

I'm not that dependant on having big/live sounding bass and drums...I like Yamaha's more refined and compressed quality, but I want the guitar parts in my styles to be sound natural, no matter what chords I threw at it.

It would be just as big a deterrent as having an arranger that couldn't play on bass chords.

Personally, I think you'd be very frustrated with the Audya after you had it for awhile, and wanted to customize it to your own liking, but I could be wrong.

It's too limited for my tastes anyway.

Ian

I don't buy ANYTHING without my eyes wide open, Ian...

If I ever got one, it would be with the assumption that I was getting what I was getting. Largely a 'preset' arranger, at least as far as the rhythm section was concerned.

But it's HARDLY a two trick pony. One thing we ALL ought to be asking of our own arranger makers in the same tone that you use for 'why did they skimp on the guitar chords?' (and I've already posted at length that I think that is simply an issue of technology hasn't caught up to their vision, rather than any 'skimping' on Ketron's part) is 'why just ONE Break/fill?'... Ketron provide one per Variation, a FAR more musical approach to the task.

'Why no real arpeggiator?' They are quite different to pattern playback based on NTT's, and essential to many older forms of music (all the way back to Kraftwerk and before) not just modern stuff.

Why no 'Riff' feature (or whatever Ketron are going to turn Riff into)? Surely SOME of us can play a solo using two hands? Even if one is just for the bender? And some of us play sax, trombone, guitar, etc.. Be nice if we didn't HAVE to use an SMF just to take a solo...

There's MUCH about the Audya we ought to be looking at with VERY jealous eyes, IMO, Ian. It's not JUST a drum loop playback tool, you know...

It is more than likely the guitar track's mismatching of audio and midi guitar parts.

The audio guitars in the style will only read so many types of chords...mainly simpler ones.

When you play a more complex chord, the Audya adds those extra notes to the audio guitar part via midi guitar sounds.

So it's not really a fault...that's just the way it was designed.

Ian

That's a lot of money for an instrument with "preset rhythms" especially since they are it's biggest feature...but, it's your money.

I would not buy an instrument I couldn't customize to my own preferences, and if I was more into doing dance music, the rhythm section would have to be more than just preset.

"Technology not catching up on their vision" is really no reason to release an instrument with an audio guitar in the accompaniment (a selling feature, no less) that won't play complex chords without having to add midi notes.

Like I said, it appears they ran out of development dollars and were forced into releasing it the way it was.

Hopefully, they can develop this drawback with OS upgrades...but, somehow, I don't think it will ever be corrected.

Ian

Ian, with the greatest respect, untill you play the keyboard for yourself you are not qualified to say anything starts in s and ends in t.

Sorry pal...I'm qualified because I say so, not because you seem to think I need your permission.

Your need to defend the Audya is understandable, and even commendable, considering your connections to it.

My opinions remain as stated earlier, and I really don't give a soot if you think they are qualified or not.

Ian

Mine (PA800) is better than yours and yours and yours.......

Hey Jim...good to see ya.

You obviously are still enjoying the PA-800...weren't you considering a PA2XPro as well?

Ian

No mine (PA500 Musikant)is better then yours

Actually Jim, this is not the usual "mine is better than yours" thread...it's more of a "yours is not as good as mine" thread.

We've got past that same old soot.

Ian

Hello Ian,

Yes, enjoying the 800 more every day. Playing lots of gigs still. Gonna take something awful special to pry me away. Hope all is well.

i'd say Audya was still in developement...till OS3, we don't know about OS4 how good it is yet.

One of the biggest keyboard dealers overhere in Holland and authorized ketron dealer isn't selling any Audya's yet. He admitted that the board was great, but to many failures...

He said, i can't sell my customers a board thats not finished yet.

As far as I can tell the Audya substitutes midi guitar for live guitars on Augmented and Diminished chords. It's hard to hear during a performance. You would have to isolate the guitar, which I don't often do, particularly if I'm playing a song with those chords.
The Audya seems to recognize and correctly play all other chords, including 9ths, 13ths, etc., AND rootless chords, which not many arrangers do.
I'm not going to start listing all the "tricks" the Audya can do, because I could write most of the night about them.
It is ridiculous to criticize a keyboard you have never seen or played and a company with which you have never dealt.
I understand that Yamaha pays you Ian, but that doesn't make the other companies bad.
You have been dropping insinuations about the stability of Ketron for a year or so now. They seem to be doing just fine despite this.
It's one of the few companies that produce a 76-note arranger and various modules. In fact it may now be the ONLY company doing either. I think they fill a definite niche that nobody else is addressing and they provide a sound that nobody else has.
Yes there is work remaining to be done on the Audya, but they seem to be doing it, and thank goodness nobody has come up and told me the guitar player changed tones for a half measure or so when I played a diminished passing chord, so they are not leaving me a tip.
DonM

BIG +1 !!

No it is not, Don. I heard the Audya's issues with the audio and midi guitars just like everyone else did when the demos were posted on this forum...and I was not the only one to question why this was allowed to reach production.

It has diddly squat to do with me working for Yamaha, but it has everything to do with my interest in new keyboards in general, which is pretty much the same as everyone else on this forum.

I actually said more good things about the Audya than bad, and the bad was already evident to many here...I have stayed out of the awful issues with the OS debates, and the incredibly poor communications because I don't know much about the company in that way, but anyone can hear the guitar issues, and it's been discussed by many more than me who have not played the Audya.

It has been said by several others that the Audya is still a work in progress, and that may be true...certainly the solution to the audio guitars not being able to play complex chords was far from ideal...you said so yourself many times.

I could see your point if I was saying something about the Audya that was untrue...but what I'm stating is simply common knowledge on this forum.

Ian

what demos are these then Ian? I have been playing Audya since December 2008 and have not experienced any problems with the live guitars.

surely your not referring to the prototype demos from way back when?

Ian is right. I remeber the problem too and this was not prototype Audya's but ones being sold as complete market ready units.Here is the thread but the actual recordings have been deleted it would seem.

But i remember them myself and i was disappointed that the Audya real guitars substituted midi notes instead of real audio for complex chords. Please let us klnow if this has been fixed.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/019051.html

Thanks Spalding...I wasn't sure where that thread had got to....but I do remember it very well, as well as I do recall how the demos showed how poorly the Audya handled the guitar chords.

It's also a bit informative, and amusing, to read the posts by Leezone and a few others...Nedim's and Rikki's comments were also quite enlightening regarding the potential difficulty in making user styles on this instrument.

I'm not quite sure that having such terrific audio bass and drums quite makes up for the poor audio guitar implementation...I know it wouldn't for me, and according to that particular thread, it was obvious a few others felt the same way.

I'm curious if this "problem", "issue", "workaround", or whatever one wants to call it, has been corrected, fixed, or better executed on the current model with the present-day OS, and if the new OS4 will rectify the issue.

Ian

thats version 1.0A!

This is realy picking at straws as I don't know anyone who plays a keyboard this way, anyway I am off sick and have a few minutes so I just tried the Audya I have here and played the following chord variations. I marked the ones with a * which I felt switched to midi guitars, but its pretty hard to tell on some as sometimes there are two guitars playing together and the midi guitars on the Audya are very high quality. In amongst a style the changes are not noticable particuarly as these odd chords tend to be played in passing. All the ones without the * definately played live guitars. I think I have covered about every chord variation, but if i missed any let me know.

I have a feeling if I gave this list to a guitarist he would laugh at me..but here goes:


Major
Minor
5
Dominant 7th
Major 7th
Minor 7th
Minor Major 7th
Sus 4 *
Sus 2
6
Minor 6
9
Minor 9
Major 9
Minor Major 9
11
Minor 11
Major 11
Minor Major 11
13
Minor 13
Major 13
Minor Major 13
add 9
Minor add9
6 add 9
minor 6 add 9
Dominant 7th add 11
Major 7th add 11
Minor 7th add 11 *
Minor Major 7th add 11
Dominant 7th add 13
Major 7th add 13
Minor 7th add 13
Minor major 7th add 13
7b5
7#5 *
7b9
7#5b9 *
m7b5 *
m7#5
m7b9
9#11
9b13
6sus4
7sus4 (* hard to tell on this)
Major 7th Sus 4 *
9sus4
Major 9 Sus4

ok i need to add something.

it seems that if the guitarist is playing an arpeggio it will play ALL chord variations, but strumming is a different matter. So it seems for the sake of a keyboard player those some odd chords are replaced with a midi pattern so there are no drop outs in sound. But when the notes are picked one after another the audya will definately play every chord variation without any change in sound.

on styles with a strumming guitar AND arpeggio the arpeggio makes it almost impossible to tell when the change to midi guitar is made.

[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-07-2010).]

So, it still substitutes midi guitar voices along with the audio guitar.

Of course, OS4 will fix it....right?

Thanks.

Ian

a little more info. The Audya only replaces the midi guitar in impossible inversions.

if i play the 1st inversion of a sus4 it will play correctly - because that is the inversion a guitarist will use. he physically cannot play every inversion. From a keyboard players point of view if an incorrect inversion was played in a sequence the sound would be worse than using a mixture of midi guitars and live guitars.

The audya always chooses the most appropriate combination to keep the sequence fluid.

thanks for bringing this up Ian...this is quite amazing stuff.

In summary the Audya will play every physically possible guitar chord, but when a chord is not playable on a guitar due for example to an unreachable inversion the Audya will replace the live guitar with a midi guitar for the sake of the keyboard players continuity - I don't know about you but I didn't have a clue which inversions are possible on a real guitar.

If the Audya simply played a different inversion to the chord position the keyboard player is on the sound would be weird, so it is the only option to replace certain unusual chord inversions with a midi guitar. But even then its not easy to hear the difference.

This keyboard is amazing. I had never considered this sort of detail before.

Minor 7th flat fives are very common in music, as are several other chords marked with the asterisk.

If you play relatively simple chords, and stay away from the more complex (and, unfortunately, interesting ones) the Audya plays only audio guitars...and sounds right.

Well, I believe this had been already worked out on that old thread that Spalding found.

Can't imagine looking through my music, and deleting those tunes with m7b5 and other chords that add to a songs interest...of course, there are those who either can't play complex chords, or just don't use them in their music because perhaps the genre only uses relatively simple chords.

That's your Audya customer I suppose....it doesn't appear to be geared for Jazz or Latin....might work well with most Rock, Rock and Roll and Country...that's probably why DonM likes it so much.

Ian

PS...will OS4 add more audio chords?

PSS...I also play guitar and bass.

PSSS...Yamaha's Tyros3 and PSR-S910 have a new GTT style mode that emulates exactly the way a guitar player voices the chords, and it does it seamlessly with mega-voices.

It's subtle, but very effective....exposed guitar parts are homogeneous AND correct. This is not a "mine is better than yours", but only to indicate that style technology advances very quickly.






[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-07-2010).]

you didn't read it properly Ian

There is no need to get rid of any interesting chords. you just have to understand that certain inversions are impossible for a guitarist to play so it is impossible to have a live recording of that chord inversion, however...change the inversion and the chord plays live. If you do play a funny inversion the keyboard can't just go quiet...thats where the midi guitar cuts in, but even so, amongst the style it is not noticable as the Audya's mid guitars are so good; you have to turn everything else down to hear it and even then its sometimes tricky if there is an arpeggio guitar over the top.

[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-07-2010).]

Unfortunately, I haven't played an Audya and I have said my experience of the Audya has been very limited. I would never put this or any keyboard down, that's not what I wanted to make a thread about because I want every reason to buy an Audya in the future to go along with the T3, not to exploit it, but it would be the Audya5 because I don't want 76 keys, I don't really gig any longer so it would be mainly for home use and recording one's own music.

[This message has been edited by DannyUK (edited 04-07-2010).]

its ok Danny - and sorry if i sounded abit abrupt. Actually I am very glad for this thread as I discovered something completely new about the way the guitar chords are constructed.

We just take a keyboard and play it without really thinking of all the work that goes into it. This must have been a HUGE learning curve for Ketron. No wonder it took so long to get it out on the market.

I can only read what's been written, my friend.

So, the keyboardist has to play certain inversions of a chord so that it plays only audio guitar?

Take into account the player may be using bass inversion chords, and it gets pretty interesting.

I still feel they could have done better with the audio guitar chords, and I still feel that the addition of midi guitar is not a satisfactory fix...it was probably the only one available to them, as to record every chord and it's inversions in audio, probably was beyond the company's budget, or maybe, beyond their technological status at that time.

That's why I asked if OS4, or perhaps a future operating system upgrade will add more audio chords.

I'm also wondering what difficulties a client will be up against when programming/editing/re-voicing their own user styles. A few people on the other thread said, or seemed to feel, it would be quite a task.

Ian

argh ..your still not reading what I have written Ian.

If it's impossible to play a specific inversion on an acoustic guitar it is impossible to have a live recording. you could have $1,000,000,000 of recording gear and it still could not be recorded.

and look at the list, this is a tiny ammount of strummed chords that switch to midi. the arppegios are fine and are available on all inversions. Most of us play the first inversion anyway so its hardly ever going to be an issue. Your m7b5 chord is more comfortable in the first inversion too.

As for revoicing styles. The Audya does all the work. just go to style view, select the part you want to adjust and use the rotary wheel to select from hundreds of live and midi variations, you can select volumes and pan too and make changes to each arranger part as well as intros, endings, fills and break. You can even take a legacy style and swap out a midi part for live drums or guitars (many of which are not used in the supplied styles so you can really cook your own unique variations). But thats a whole other subject. I'll try and tell you more in another thread if your interested.



[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-07-2010).]

The voicing for my m7b5 depends on the previous and the next chord, if I'm planning a smooth uninterrupted move (as in using a sound in the left, such as strings) and sometimes it's easier to use a different inversion than the first.

How would it handle a Bm7b5/A with a strumming guitar part? Would the audio guitar play the root as an A or a B? On my S910 the mega voice guitar plays an A.

I suppose it's workable, but I do remember hearing the guitar chords being played in the posted demos...the additional midi guitars were far from subtle, and very obvious. I can't remember what chords were being played, and the demos were removed, but I believe the chords weren't overly complex.

I know I will never get a chance to play one, so on-line demos will be my only exposure.

Perhaps you could post some audio guitar only chord changes, using several types of chords and inversions?

It would be in the Audya's favor if we could hear demos that show the exposed guitar audio/midi parts were more homogeneous sounding than what we heard previously.

Ian

root and first inversion (1st is outside the normal split point) Bm7b5 plays with live guitars with a B bass

if you drop two below root it will play a Dm6 chord with D bass

[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-07-2010).]

So the audio guitar plays an "A" in the root when you play a Bm7b5/A? And a "B" in the root when Bm7b5 is played?

Can you post some guitar part only demos using the chords that use audio and midi when you have the time and are feeling up to it?

I think several of us would like to hear them...if it's not a lot of trouble...just style left hand, using both bass inversions and regular fingered.

It would surely clear up a lot of confusion, and invariably help promote the Audya.

Ian

sorry Ian. i edited my previous post with some extra detail just after you must have posted.

it won't too much trouble to video the changes, although i don't have a great quality camera. should be ok for this though.



[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-07-2010).]

Ian,

what's amazing is that:
you CAN hear the "lack" of FULL complex chords on audio guitar , (addition of midi notes)
but CANNOT hear that as a whole,
the AUDYA rocks the socks off over T3, for "in your face, LIVE sound"

also, in your opinion, what's the backbone of a band?
if you had to pick 1 instrument...what's the foundation?

would you not say bass? and drums?
and everything else is gravy...

but you have the RIGHT to hate AUDYA, ONLY if you TRY it like me,
i doubted it, but when i heard it, and played it next to my G-70, NO COMPARISON, for my music of course :-)

play it and you will not be thinking of that one midi guitar note...

don't hate midi so much, cuz YAMAHA uses it ALL the time,
so stick to Yamaha my friend :-)

[This message has been edited by leezone (edited 04-07-2010).]

So it won't play the corresponding root on the audio guitar to coincide with the bass part when you play a Bm7b5/A...assuming you change the split point to accommodate the chord?

This is when the keyboard is in On Bass, or bass inversion mode.

In other words, the lowest note in the Audio guitar part would be an A when playing a Bm7b5/A?

I'm not trying to make this confusing...I'm interested in how the Audio guitar parts handle on bass chords when they are played alone.

It would be nice to be able to play a chord progression with a descending bass line, using the guitar parts alone. I can do it on the S910.

Ian

Well, Lee, it may rock the socks off anything out there, but it's not worth a soot to me if the guitar parts are improperly voiced and sound like soot.

You heard them on the demo and didn't like them, but now your opinion has changed...that's fine, you obviously are more concerned with a rough and ready sound, than one that is more refined, detailed, and correct.

Anyone who plays jazz (and sophisticated Pop) would be very concerned how a keyboard handles root notes/inversion, and rootless voicing, as well as anyone who plays Latin (properly).

I'm glad the Audya appeals to you...so far I'm not convinced, but I am willing to be educated and learn more about how the Audya processes audio/midi guitar chords.

I said in an earlier post, the Audya, like the Tyros3/PSR-S910 won't appeal to every-one's taste, and needs, and style of play.

I don't do dance stuff...I mostly do recording now and I like having and hearing details in the music that are correct and refined.

That's why I use Yamaha arrangers...if I wanted to go with bingity bangity dancy type stuff with emphasized bass and drums, I might choose something along the lines of the Audya, but more likely it would be Roland (or maybe Korg)...although I can get a pretty potent sound out of the S910 with some style editing and EQ'ing.

I'm sorry I don't share your enthusiasm for the Audya just yet...when are you buying one? When it is fixed? Or, do you believe it is exactly what you want right now?

If so, why aren't you playing one? Surely it can't be the price? It rocks the socks off everything, so whatever it costs, it would have to be part of your kit.

I know if I felt that way about an instrument, I'd have it right away.

Personally, I'm with Diki...I think you're just dreaming.

Ian




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-07-2010).]

i'm not playing one NOW,
as i'm waiting for AUDYA4 module

i play my OLD XD3, and G-70
but 80% is Ketron,
i like it more and so does my audience

i also need to know if i can upgrade the "wimpy" 80GB hard drive to something of today' standards, 1TB

Ian, you mentioned that i bitched on lack of FULL audio chords,
yes i did, but when i started playing it,
that was the last thing on my mind :-)

FYI IAN,
Latin is very broad,
not all latin music uses Bbm11+13 chords

ever hear of Merengue, Cumbia, Bachata, Salsa?

i don't play Latin Jazz

Well Lee...I ain't just a bass and drums kind of guy...I like the style to be full and realistic...not everyone wants things my way, or your way.

If the Audya floats your boat, that's wonderful.

Ian

see here Ian: http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum22/HTML/001396.html

That was nice, but can you have the guitar parts only...no bass and drums please....we already know they sound great.

If you could, throw in some slash chords (on bass) as well.

I would like to hear the guitar parts only, and playing the chords that involve audio and midi guitars.

That would be the real acid test, in my opinion.

Thanks,

Ian

tonewhell,

thanks for taking the time
sounds great

can't wait to get my AUDYA4

Ian - i replied to your post in the other thread. And leezone; I know you are going to love the Audya4!

Sorry, I can't hear them on their own...what if someone wanted to do the first verse of a song using only guitar parts of the style...or even have everything drop out for the last verse?

It might be okay for "live" play on stage, but when recording, the midi guitar parts may be more obvious.

Post your recordings here...there's no need of starting another thread.

I'm fussy about details....and considering the Audya's high price, I'm sure that's not being unrealistic.

Ian

there is of course only one thing better than the Audya with Live guitar strumming in the style!

That would be an Audya with a live guitarist (preferably female, 27...nice legs) sitting next to you.

Most people dont buy the audya only to be solo guitar strumming, they buy it to have a realistic strumming guitarist in their "virtual band". And honestly speaking it is just like having a guitarist and drummer with you...takes me back to my time with Hammond.

For a professional studio recording most would want to use an actual guitarist, but for anyone who uses an arranger - this is definately the next best thing.

Yamaha styles are all midi based, which means it is a lot easier to balance styles via the computer.

Yamaha is also making a keyboard from it's previous product line, which is easier to manufacturer.

Audya is just a different product from all others. Balancing audio loops with midi is trickier than all computer generated styles.

As Diki said in this thread and I said over a year ago, sonically you can not beat the realism of a audio loop vs a computer generated style.

TWD, only a couple of us here that play organ exclusively (on the gig). With your extensive knowledge and experence with the Hammond organ, I'd love to hear some of your (non-arranger) organ music. Except for me and Robert from Germany (who plays non-Hammond pop and theatre organ), hardly anyone ever posts any good ol' B3 offerings. How about it? I'm ......fascinated by the depth of your admiration for the Audya, as most organist and pianist aren't usually blown away by ANY arranger keyboard. Anyhow, just anything that you think represents your taste in music and playing style. Thanks.

BTW, have heard both Ian and Diki play, I have great respect for their musical opinions.

chas

PS: excuse the hijack.

Yes Dan no doubt the future may lie in audio based accompaniments, but the balancing issues could be a problem for the average user when creating/editing a style.

Ian

"That's your Audya customer I suppose....it doesn't appear to be geared for Jazz or Latin....might work well with most Rock, Rock and Roll and Country...that's probably why DonM likes it so much."

I do all kinds of music including standards, latin and some jazz. There are thousands of songs in my repertoire, many of which have intricate chords. The Audya chord recognition has never been a problem in live use and you can nitpick it all you want and that won't change.
As a matter of fact the Audya is particularly strong in Latin styles. I don't do that many, but I do play the ones popular in the U.S., including Ipanema, You Belong To My Heart, Besame Mucho, Spanish Eyes and many more.
What I don't understand is that if you never plan to buy an Audya and never expect to play or even see one, why you are trying to resurrect a year-old post that was designed to isolate a situation and expose a weakness that does not affect you in any way, except perhaps cut into Yamaha sales, and that should not be a consideration considering the relative volume of sales of the two companies.
You refuse to accept the opinions and statements of those of us who are using the Audya every night in real situations, so I will respectfully bow out of this discussion and enjoy my Audya.
Ian I have always respected your abilities and opinions, and continue to do so, but we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.
DonM

I have really enjoyed today being stuck at home and learned quite a bit about the Audya too. I think the year old thread is well and truly put to bed.

Still waiting to give away the 100 points here though:
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum22/HTML/001396.html

I don't plan on buying a Ferrari, but I will discuss them and read about them...I don't plan on getting a Korg, but I like to discuss them.

I'm sorry if my posts on the Audya hit a sore spot with you Don...but, I was under the impression this was a discussion group about arrangers...all I'm doing is discussing.

I wasn't the only one resurrecting details about the Audya, nor am I the only one not going to buy one, but, I seem to be the only target of your ire all the same.

Respectfully,

Ian

Hardly....but, it's good to see you've learned something from all the old thread resurrecting.

Unfortunately, I'm not quite convinced, at least not until I hear the audio and midi guitar parts on their own.

In the long run, I suppose that hardly matters, as I'm not going to buy one, but I can't say I could recommend one to someone either.

Thanks for all your trouble.

Ian

Hey this thread reminds me of the "good old days"......mine is better...

A few comments from me...some may be offended by a remark or two....but keep in mind...these are my opinions only..

First off ...to stir the pot a bit...

I have been a Yamaha fan for many years...mostly early 80's thru 90's....the Yamaha arrangers did not fall in my favorite list...never...Just personal opinion...maybe being able to have other arranger keyboards to side by side compared, helped my opinion..

I always purchased the Yamaha arrangers but always left me wanting more...in some cases less (dang hand clap)..
I have owned along line of PSR's ..6700, 500, 320, 740, 2000, 2100 etc..I passed on the 3000, 900...and also the 9000...I played Uncle Dave's..that was enough,..same repackaged stuff...

Likewise, I had the Tyros3 for a very short time...I just could not see what you guys got excited about... the new owner likes it..

I have been dealing and using Solton/Ketron products since the early 80's....I wouldn't worry about them folding tent anytime soon...Solton/Ketron users are the most loyal and pleased consumers....period.

Sure they are a small company....compared to the "big 3"....but they have always retained their market share...

Now about the quality..hardware and sound..

Solton/Ketron has always been at the top in both categories....the majority of the sounds beat the competition...in my opinion..of course there are other manufacturers that have certain sounds that are head and shoulders better....The SA guitar from Yamaha...the Scat and choir from Roland (GS)..etc..(sorry I can't think of a standout from Korg at the moment..I am sure they must have...one)...

The early Solton MS series were the cream of the crop, in the sound department..always full sound and very realistic for leads etc..(early 80's)...

The Ketron X1...completely dominated the sound dept....The famous bass/drums...and styles were teriffic..and the quality lead voices were great too...Back then 1998-1999, I was using the Roland G1000 and a Ketron X1....The X1 over-matched most of the G1000 in the sounds area, but was out done by the G1000 is sequence playback (GS)...I also preferred the G1000 OS over the Ketron...and actually this remains true today..I prefer the Roland /E80 OS over the SD series..

I have always thought that Ketron needed to improve things with their OS.....Maybe I would be one of those dedicated Ketron guys like DanO...if the OS equaled my Roland stuff..

BTW: I always disliked the PSR/Tyros OS too..too many button pushes and "crossword puzzles" to get where I want to go....

I still think Roland is unmatched in operating procedures.....Sure it could be what we are use too.....

From what I hear from the Audya....it is simply the best sounding keyboard...not just arranger, in the closed keyboard market..

Well Fran, in order for you to offend somebody, they would have to take you seriously...I'm sorry, but I just can't quite do that yet...thankfully.

Ian

what i LOVE about Ketron is simplicity and sound

i'm referring to basic things like VOLUME sliders for each track, BAM,

G-70 on other hand, though simple OS, not as EASY to do the simple things, more button/screen presses

and the sound of Ketron,
GOTTA try it to BELIEVE,
key word here is TRY IT,
of course the problem for many is finding one within 1,000 miles of your home :-)
hi Diki :-)

How hard is it to turn up the volumne of one part and equal the balance on any keyboard ?

Might be very heard trying to balance audio and midi guitars.

From the demos I heard, someone didn't do such a great job on them, so I imagine a new user may find it a bit tough...if the factory programmers couldn't pull it off quite right, what are the chances the user will?

Ian

But you are not "discussing" anything.

You are being deliberately derogatory about an opposition product, continually ranting about Yamaha in your quest to rubbish everything else in the quest to sell more product.

You were being deliberately obtuse when it came to guitar voicings, and you profess to be this great musician and player!! And the almighty wise one of everywhere you visit and play.

Every musician KNOWS a guitar cannot play the voicings of chords that can be achieved on a keyboard.

Ketron have been brilliant in keeping the voicings of the recordings exactly as a live guitarist would play (well lets face it they ARE live guitar parts).

Yamahas vocings are unreal and some of the chords achievable are KEYBOARD inversions, and sound totally fake, and to be honest ridiculous.

Its those voicings that make arrangers sound cheesy, for the most part. Yamaha more than most. Not too mention as interesting as a week old pancake. And dull to boot.

You guys at Yamaha are so piqued that you didn't get these things developed sooner.

I have no doubt that Yamaha ARE working on similar software, and we ALL know that as soon as they do, you Ian , will be singing the praises from every rooftop ONLY because its a Yamaha product.

And you will conveniently forget ALL the negative crap you have been spouting here, and turn it into positive Yamaha spin.

I don't know why TWD wastes his time with you, as you are deliberately trying to "poison the well". I do not, for one second, believe you trying to genuinely ascertain facts about the keyboard.

And further TWD should not worry about your opinion, sheesh, NO-ONE else on SZ does.

Ahhhh miden...do you feel better now, dear little fellow?

I appreciate your frustration...I've been trying to get some decent demos of the Audya all day.

Could you make some for me...please?

Ian

How about a good old shootout? Pistols (oops, I meant arrangers ) at dawn. Two arrangers enter, one arranger leaves?

What so far has failed to have been produced is a straight comparison. TWD came up with some guitar, but admittedly, buried a little. OTOH, Ian has failed to come up with ANYTHING (except his acerbic opinion ) in the way of a comparison.

You know, to be fair, I have YET to hear Yamaha's new NTT's soloed. Nothing up at their sites AFAIK. So we only have Ian's OPINION how good they are. Which has as much value as Lee's I want to HEAR how much better (or not) they are over the Audya's loops as applied to SOLO'D acoustic guitar strumming with a complex set of chords and passing chords.

So, how about it, gentlemen? (all evidence to the contrary )

Pick a set of chord progressions (maybe those from TWD's example), solo the acoustic track, record the results. Proof of the pudding is in the listening, not the incessant yacking

Put your money where your mouths are...

(Korg users, feel free to show off your Guitar Mode, too, if you want in on this bitchslap-fest!)

Thanks Miden, I appreciate your comments.

Actually I have been stuck at home today, my car was in the garage and I have a terrible cold so took the opportunity to chill out with an Audya. As it happened the day was quite enjoyable and the banter with Ian brought to light things that I had taken for granted. I am not worried about converting Ian to Ketron; you can lead a horse and all that...particuarly as he hasn't had the opportunity to try one. I thought for the sake of everyone else on the forum this silly guitar midi vs live thing should be settled.

If Ian hadn't taken this line of offence I would never have discovered how the Audya handles chords and inversions - the keyboard continues to astound me.

The track posted down in the Ketron forum is clear enough and i don't think there is any need to spend more time making recordings to prove the point. That song (still waiting for someone to guess the name of the it by the way) has some challenging chord changes and inversions with a nice flavour of 'exotic' chords too.

If we start posting just the guitar tracks Ian will be sending them to Yamaha's R&D for anaylsis Next thing you know they will be on the T4 ..lol

I am increasing the prize to guess the song name to 200 points PLUS a free pint of Guiness in the bar later

Here are some demos of the Ketron audya and the tyros 3. I'm sure what version of the audya but it's sure not v.1

Audya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tECgWVgVA8U

Tyros 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MRVXJxq02g&feature=related

Audya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwoB5vqEsZQ

Tyros 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM6l6hUfW7A

Audya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaU027g6cY4&feature=channel

tyros 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LXKNUZ0F24

Don't be so lazy Diki...you're getting nearly as bad as me.

If you wanted to hear the new NTT in the T3 or S910, you could easily spend some time with either one at your local music store.

That way you could spend hours just basking in pure guitar realism.

Now, the Audya, is a different beast...you haven't played one, and may never get the chance...neither will I (my gast has never been so flabbered)...it is truly a Yeti, and darn near shrouded in as much mystery, but Mr. Wheel has one, and I was hoping to hear the guitar tracks exposed in all their splendor, or lack thereof...I just want to hear the mixture of the midi and audio guitars....just like you do...the old demos were removed, and I thought we might be lucky enough to hear some new ones, perhaps even better recorded than the last.

Jeez, I though for sure you were going to buy an S910...great little 'board, new GTT mode (oh wait, you know about that already)...be a nice addition to your brace of Roland G-70's...even has some incredibly wicked synth sounds right from the Motif...plus the usual smattering of SA and Mega voices to perk up your perky.

Well under $2000...see your Yamaha dealer immediately if not sooner...they're going fast.

Ian

Or wait for the Audya OS:672...it should be finished right before you end up in a nursing home...you'd be a hit!

Ian, I posted some demos from youtube so you can hear the audya, the video quality isn't the best, but its good enough to hear the differances.

yes MC both instruments sound great but the live drums and bass to my ears won the day in terms of the styles for the ketron. But i think the yamaha lead voices were better especially that classical guitar. I also think that the yamahas can make the drums stand ouit more in the mix which would make a lot of difference. In all the ketron demos the drums and bass literally dominate all the styles which is not necessarily a good thing.

But i like what i hear so far.

Thanks MC...much appreciated...I already have heard the Audya playing simple chords...it sounds very good.

I was more curious about how the Audio and Midi guitars blended when playing the more complex chords that the audio guitars weren't able to cover on their own.

We can really only hear this when all of the style parts, except the guitars have been muted.

Thanks again,

Ian

Thanks for posting those demo's mc.

I liked what I heard but it just seemed to me the Yamaha had a slightly fuller sound but the Ketron definately showed off how great the drums sound and is clearly very dominant in this area, maybe a bit too in your face though. Do they need to be so over complex? Maybe they do, definately for Latin & Rock music.

There was a midifile demo of Sway not so long ago comparing Audya, T3 and PA2x and I felt the same then as well. They are really different beasts and that's a good thing, but I still think the T3 has a slightly fuller, sweeter and punchy sound (but that's only hearing the demo's).

Another thing, the Audya's guitar is very expressive and you can clearly hear how dominant it is too, however, what about if you don't like that guitar sound as I don't? Could I change it if I wanted to?

mc,

thanks for those Demos and reminding me how BAD the T3 drums are when comparing to AUDYA

really, it's like night and day

mc,

also thanks for giving me another reason to LOVE the AUDYA even more

Holy Crap is this thread still going on.

yes, and i just got 100th post

Leezone,

1- Do you own an Audya?
2- Or just you are a window shopper?
3- Or maybe you never have the cojones to purchase one?

Just curious !!!

1- Do you own an Audya?

NOT YET, if you follow my posts, you will know i'm waiting for the AUDYA 4 to release,
THEN i will TRY,
THEN, if it meets my NEEDS after trying, i will buy

2- Or just you are a window shopper?
no just a PICKY shopper,
if i like, i buy

3- Or maybe you never have the cojones to purchase one?

This has nothing to do with "cojones mi amigo"


you see i ask alot of questions,
because i want to know BEFORE I BUY, not AFTER,
what the AUDYA can/cannot do

so when i want to buy it,
i will take my big cojenes to the store and buy it

Fran, that was a thoughtful, reasoned explanation of your preferences and experiences that, in my opinion, was pretty much "spot on".

Man, I knew there was a reason you were the recipient of the first ever "Kentucky Nugget(LOL)" award a few years back.

Thanks,


Russ

What?? The T3's drums are fantastic, it's the main reason why I went back to Yamaha and not carried on with Korg (not that there's anything wrong with Korg) because Yamaha have definately improved their drums by 100% since owning the PSR8000. I think the Yamaha's drums are excellent and sound Live enough to me. It also depends on what kit is selected for whatever you're playing, it's important to note that.

I can appreciate that you are a huge fan of the Audya, and why not, it's an astonishing keyboard, however, please be realistic too.

Danny,

go play an AUDYA next to the T3 on a good PA for your audience
and then come back here and tell me which Drums sound live

really,
do me that favor

Oh, so then I can come back here and say something like "Oh yes Lee you were so right, how awful and rubbish my T3 sounds in comparison to the glorious Audya" and then proclaim my love for it so much so that I bought the company!

No it's OK Lee, I'm more than happy with my T3

Should I ever get an Audya, it will only merely be a second keyboard to compliment the T3, not to replace it!

Danny.

Hi Guys, Here is the 101st post! As Awesome as the T3 is, Audya clearly wins in the ( I SWEAR I HEARD A LIVE GUITAR PLAYER ON STAGE WITH YOU DEPARTMENT! ) AUDYA clearly wins in the Sax, Trumpet, Percussion and MANY OTHER SOLO INSTRUMENT DEPARTMENTS!

The T3 slightly wins out in the Piano, Clarinet and overall PRETTY SOUND Department.

After listening to Robert's latest video's, the OS4's improvements in the Piano section, I feel the Audya will win in that area also.

You just can't argue the pure Authenticity of the Audya's solo voices!

So here is what all you ARRANGER PLAYERS that Love the Audya and Love the T3 need to do:

It's really very simple:

I did it, so can you:

Buy BOTH of these Boards!!!

Here is even a BETTER OPTION:

Buy the AUDYA, Buy the TYROS 3, Buy the Roland Fantom G and Buy the Korg PA2X Pro.

See,now wasn't that an easy solution to end all the quibble about which one is the best!

How do I accomplish that you ask?

That is the easy part also:

Here are your solutions and options to THAT dilemma:

1. Totally deplete your life's SAVINGS ACCOUNT.

2. Take out a 2nd mortgage on your Property.

3. Cash in your Life Insurance Policy.

4. Sell ALL of your Stocks and Bonds.

5. Cash Surrender your 401k, IRA or whatever your Retirement account is invested in.

6. Max out any and all of your Credit Cards.

7. Sell your Motorcycle, Boat, Snow Mobile, Motor Home and your car.

8. Sell or trade your First Born Child.

9. And Finally your LAST OPTION: See if the Retail Store will take your WIFE in on trade.

You might as well use THIS OPTION FIRST, Because if you use any of the other 8 options, SHE is going to DIVORCE you ANYWAYS!

See?? Aren't you all HAPPY that I joined this forum?????????

If you have any other questions, quibbles or problems, JUST ASK ME!

I HAVE THE ANSWERS!!!!

Jim R.

Lee, why are you so defensive? It doesn't make sense. Nobody is disputing or doubting the awesome quality of the Audya, and clearly, Ketron have dedicated most of their efforts in ensuring the drums are as realistic as possible, and that's just wonderful, however, saying that any other keyboard doesn't or cannot sound as good is ludicrous because clearly they can and do compete.

That's exactly what I am eventually planning to do, hence the reason why I started this thread.

[This message has been edited by DannyUK (edited 04-08-2010).]

Danny,
when i first got my Ketron XD-3
i THOUGHT it was to compliment my G-70,
but as it turns out, it now pretty much REPLACES it :-)

and NOW we are talking about the AUDYA...

You think the sounds on the Audya are better. That's personal. I think differently.

I still use the PA1x and it still sounds fantastic even against the T3.

I can't see that happening Lee although if I do get an Audya, the PA1x will have to go because of space more than anything, two is my limit.

Danny,

seriously...
B4 you buy AUDYA, if you ever,
please try it

I love it, it works BEST for me for MY type of music,
but maybe not so for YOU

Danny forget the Audya and wait for the new Korg. He will come soon

Now there's a thought!!! But where it also get the same attention as the Audya does!!??

Come on Guys, I just posted the answer to the WHICH SOUNDS BETTER ARGUMENT!!!

BUY BOTH THE AUDYA AND THE T3!

I LOVED THEM BOTH, SO I BOUGHT THEM BOTH!!!!

Jim R.

Korg IMO

Korg don't need any attention. It will sell itself

I was talking about on here Fran!

Jim R.

can you record this on AUDYA and post? :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAEo3EmIytY

Hi Leezone:

Yes, I don't see why not. Do you want me to have my partner sing it on the recording also?

Give me a week or two. Finding the time to practice is difficult. I'm playing 26 out the 30 days this month. Which includes two doubles.( Afternoon and Evening shows )

When you have some talent and Awesome keyboard technology at your finger tips, you stay pretty busy!

As time permits, I'll be happy to post any songs I play on this forum. On the Audya or T3 or use both in the same recording.

Thanks.

Jim R.

Jim , NiteLife

not sure you got my post...

i love the "NITE LIFE"

Leezone: I got it! Back in the 70's for a few years, my Duo was called Nite Life. So I used the name here for my username.

I'm really enjoying myself on this forum!

Jim R.

Leezone: Actually the name was used from 79 through 1981. Here is a picture of me and my Singer at that time. I was playing a Lowrey Symphonic Theater Console Organ.

I hauled that monster around for 13 years. Attached were TWO 710 Lesley Cabinets. The organ weighed almost 550 pounds. And you think the Audya is heavy at 43 pounds. Hah!

Jim R.

Woops, I guess I don't know how to post a picture.

I Figured it out.

G:\Users\Jim Randall\Pictures\My Scans\scan0005.jpg

Nope I guess not! Hey guys, How do you post a picture on here??

Hey Fran, How did you do that?????????

Host on your website..click on properties and copy the url..then post on SZ using [img] in front of the copy and [/img] at the end

Like this...

Do I have to host the pic on my website first? Any other way to do it?

Thanks Fran!

Yack, yack, yack, yack, yack....

So, NOBODY'S got the cojones to post naked, unadulterated guitar only tracks...?

C'mon Ian, don't be so lazy. For a start off, there's no-one even NEAR me even got an S910, let alone a T3, and secondly, I am sure more than just me is interested in hearing a level playing field, no factory doctoring shootout between the two arranger's guitar sections.

For a Yamaha demonstrator, you seem to be awfully reticent about actually DEMONSTRATING your opinions... Look, this issue isn't going to go to bed unless we have a PROPER user shootout. The factory sure as hell aren't going to provide one. It's like the Purgatory Creek piano shootout. Level the playing field as much as possible, and let the PLAYERS decide for themselves rather than deciding which of two opinions they want to believe. Me, I don't believe EITHER of you. I only trust MY ears, not yours, not TWD's. Only mine. Just as you don't follow my OPINION (I have to provide something for you to listen to before you admit the G70 sounds as 'live' in the drum dept. as the Audya ) either....

So, c'mon guys. Enough yacking. More PLAYING.

Me, I'd like to hear TWD's chord changes solo'd on acoustic, and maybe a straight rock/blues progression on electric. No rhythm track, no drums, no NOTHING but the guitar style track solo'd.

Or is everybody scared of what might be the result if you DO? Don't be chicken... If you TRULY believe what you are saying, you won't have a problem providing audio evidence of it, will you?

C'mon, girls.... don't be shy

Jim, yes you have to host it, either your site or another site..There are free host sites to upload pics and songs..than you copy the url as I mentioned...Of you have a problem you can email the pics and I will upload to SZ for you..

I see the lock coming very fast.

Jim here is a site I have used in the past..


http://picasa.google.com/

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 04-08-2010).]

Thanks Fran!!

Now listen young lady....

Let me please be lazy...I only demo when I'm paid, and I don't think you can afford me.

However, Mr. Wheel, or perhaps Tony (if he can get the darn Audya workin') can put up some guitar tracks...we already know the Yamaha has an homogeneous sound on all the chords...it always passed that test, even before the new GTT, which you owe to yourself to try out....surely the music stores in your area have at least an S910, if not a Tyros3?

AND...they should send an Audya to you...that would solve everything....maybe.

Ian

a homogeneous guitar sounds as apealing as a homogeneous Hammond



[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-08-2010).]

I thought a Hammond sounded like a Hammond....that's homogeneous, ain't it? Unless you play a Farfisa along with it. Duh!

Two different guitars, one audio, and one midi, being needed to play a chord, is not homogeneous, and when I heard it, it didn't sound very good.

It's like the guitar player saying, "Sorry folks, but I can't rightly play this complex chord by myself, so I'll have the other guitar player help me out by adding the notes for me. Thank you, and have a lovely evening."

Tell me another one.

IF it's a HOMOGENEOUS sound we are after...
Then i think we should REALLY consider one of these:

Now come on, Lee...the Audya sounds a bit better than that instrument....but, maybe the pretty colors will amuse you.

I have posted some unique, general and Style editor features currently available on AUDYA and those soon to come in OS 4.0 right here.

Some have asked for what makes this keyboard unique appart from having AUDIO Drums, Bass and Guitars that are used with the STYLES. I would say it's also what you can do with the AUDIO plus your own AUDIO parts too (USER AUDIO DRUMS, USER AUDIO GUITARS).

As of OS3.0 ...

** EDIT STYLES and move/select AUDIO DRUMS, BASS and GUITARS to use within any style and store as a USER style.

** EDIT STYLE and use a USER AUDIO DRUM (a wave file you've created/recorded yourself, stored in the USER DRUM FOLDER of the AUDYA's HD).

** EDIT STYLE and change any of the DRUM parts (From/TO MIDI/AUDIO), any of the chord parts (MIDI or BANK) and Chord 5/LIVE (MIDI to/from Live Guitar or Live USER GUITAR [in 4.0]) and SAVE as a USER STYLE.

** PLAY A MIDIFILE and replace it's drums with either DRUMS from AUDYA's STYLE Library or USER DRUMS (Waves you've created yourself)... DRUM REMIX. As the Midifile plays, you can toggle between the Style's Drums OR the original Midifile Drums in real time.

** PLAY A MIDIFILE and replace it's guitar or any track with the LIVE GUITARS (so the MIDIFILE will control chord changes while playing with associated Live Guitar track (or USER LIVE GUITAR) or play the Live Guitar Parts along with a Midifile [OS 4.0].

** INTELLIGENT GUITAR (Kind of what others refer to as GUITAR MODE). User is able to (while playing a style), play a LIVE AUDIO GUITAR strum (depending on Live Guitar selected) which instantly replaces the LIVE GUITAR ... so you can manually (using chords) strum as though you were playing a real guitar yourself ... but you would be playing an actual AUDIO GUITAR strum/lick ... The style's Live Audio Guitar is instantly replaced with your Live 'live' Guitar. If you play a chord with regular velocity, the Style's Audio Guitar returns!

More information in greater details here at another tread dedicated to these features from the Ketron AUDYA series ...
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/021077.html

... for more information.

Thanks,

AJ

[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 04-08-2010).]

oh sh@t...

Yamaha just emailed me the following:

"Dear Mr. Leezone, You have violated your confidentiality agreement with Yamaha. Please remove the prototype pic of the Tyros4 immediately. If you do not comply with 24 hours, Yamaha will take immediate legal action against you"

Ha Ha...very funny.

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 04-08-2010).]

Jeez, Fran.... haven't you learned by now how oversized
images mess up the thread

Can you edit and repost after reducing the size?

And come on guys... can't anyone take this thread seriously.
Doesn't ANYONE want to hear a shootout between guitar parts..?

Methinks Ian is getting a bit nervous. Me, if I thought MY arranger
blew away the Audya's guitar section (which it doesn't, unfortunately )
I'd want to show it off loud and proud. I guess TALKING smack is easier than proving it

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 04-08-2010).]

Sorry buddy, methinks you should know by now I can't be pressed into doing something I don't feel like doing.

Besides, that would ruin the surprise for you when you finally get to try out a PSR-S910 or a Tyros3.

Fran's finesse with pictures is like his playing.

Ian

Yes...bigger than life..

Of course...that's excactly what I meant.

Sorry I have to mention this by way of reply this is the caption that might appear under the picture above..hehe

"Tyros:
From the Latin tiro, or "recruit."
A tyro is a beginner or novice, whilst Tyros is Plural. The phrase tends to be used rather negatively as in, "Even a complete tyro shouldn't make a basic mistake like that."

The first reference to the word Tyros in amusical sence is found in the 1912 printing of the book "Choice Readings" edited by Robert McLean Cummock, L.H.D. And originally copyrighted in 1878; on page 32 it applies the word "tyros" to neophyte piano players in training."

Look it up for yourself

It's like the word "Audya"...break it down...Aud ya pronounced "odd ya"...it's Latin for "you are odd."

It can't be derived from the word "Audio" although "odd audio" could have been the underlying expression intended, considering the "odd" audio guitar voicing on complex chords.

I hope they eventually fix them...it's a shame, because the rest of it is so good, I could listen to it for minutes.

Ketron would sure benefit having the sales numbers of the Tyros in all it's excellent iterations, the Tyros3 being considered by many to be the the most advanced arranger available today...and like all Yamaha arrangers, there is no problem with odd guitar voicings...the only thing odd about the Tyros3 is it's critics.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-09-2010).]

I absolutely refuse to be drawn into a product slamming match (even though I have taken the time to play almost all the instruments discussed here). In fact if you search my posts you will not find any negative comments regarding other instruments.

As for the Tyros range. I have great respect for it, Yamaha have created an instrument that is incredibly well suited to the target market here in the UK despite the lack of interest in Japan. I have always had great respect for Korg and Roland too; Companies that have made some of the best instruments over the past three decades.

I also refuse to get personal. Its too easy to say things in the safety of your office or living room that you would never say to a persons face.

I fully appreciate that you made your mind up about what you like and dislike - it is your right. The efforts to explain the live guitar functionality of the Audya was because I had time due to being off sick..and because I wanted the other board members who are open minded to see how the Audya handles complex progressions in a real situation.

[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-09-2010).]

That's good to hear, pal...so do I...now, let's stop this right here.

I have edited the "personal" remarks from my previous post, but the other references remain, as you had deliberately tossed the first stone.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-09-2010).]

We have decided to put OS4.0a out on our website www.ketron.it.

Please go ahead and download.

Here are the details ...

Special Features in AUDYA¡¦s OS 4.0

1. New Sampler / Wave Editor now Activated : New function for Wave tracks, Sampler and MSP Edit (see page #2) within the Wave and MSP menu. You can now sample / capture your own sounds with Audya.
2. New Live Guitar Remix : Powerful Remix feature within the Midi File menu. Now, the Live Guitars can be added in the REMIX menu and linked to follow the harmonic chord changes of a midi file automatically while playing. (See page #9). Think of this as having a Live Guitar player playing along with your midifiles in real time!
3. User Live Guitars : New User LIVE GUITARS that can be loaded into Ins-Ram memory (See page #14). These guitars can be associated with styles and replace the current Chord 5 track of a style with new Live Guitars!
4. Chord Solo : A new ¡§Chord Solo¡¨ function has now been included within the STYLE MODE > CHORD 2/2 menu (F2). When turned on, all Style parts (Drum and Bass) are instantly muted apart from the Chords. This feature can also be assigned to the USER Slider control by pressing the User Assignable button (LED flashes in edit mode), and pressing F10 repeatedly until the required chord part to assign to this fader is displayed. F7, F8 and F10 have a ¡§>¡¨ denoting more information exists when pressed repeatedly. The highlighted item in this column (F6-F10) is what will eventually be controlled by the User Slider control when editing is completed. Remember the User Assignable tab has to be on for this to work.
5. We¡¦ve also added the ¡§Glide¡¨ function and it¡¦s associated parameter ¡§Glide Time¡¨ located in Menu > Keyboard Control > Pitch ¡VVolumes -Tran.
6. We¡¦ve included ¡§Jukebox¡¨ in Menu > Keyboard Control > Utility > Page 3/4 > F9, which allows you to queue the next song to be played while a song is playing. When turned on, this feature allows you to select a song (in the Wave, MP3, SFX, Midi playback screen) and while it is playing, if you select another song, a blue dot is displayed next to it showing it will be played after the current song.
7. Another new function ¡§Wave Filter¡¨ is located in the User Assignable > F7 (may need to press repeatedly and only works if ¡§User Assignable¡¨ is on).
8. Wave Equalizer : Added under MENU > DSP > WAVE EQUALIZER. Select the initial setting (F1-F5) you want to edit. Then press EDIT to view it¡¦s current settings and edit it¡¦s parameters to your liking. You can use ACTIVE/INACTIVE (U1) to hear the difference between your changes and the initial settings, DEFAULT (U2) to return to the default settings, and SAVE (U5) to save your final settings.
9. Portamento Autoswitch : Also associated with the automatic Aftertouch On/Off feature, these new feature automatically turn on Portamento (F8) and / or Aftertouch (F7) when programmed within a Preset or Program voice i.e. if you select a voice where these features were active when edited. Functions are located under Menu > Keyboard Control > Aftertouch, F7 and F8.
10. Lock Regs Micro : This new feature found in MENU > Keyboard Control > Utility > Page 4/4 (which can be saved in Custom Start Up), allows one to freeze Microphone and Voicetron preset regardless of which Registration is selected or loaded when on.
11. 2nd Voice Output to Out 1 & 2: 2nd Voice can now be routed to Outputs 1 and 2 independently. Function is under MENU > OUTPUT ASSIGN > OUT1&2
12. Lock Style Balance : Global Style balance values can be locked for all Audya styles so that as you switch from one style to the next, the style¡¦s volume is fixed. This function can be activated by pressing the Style Mode > Modes 2/2 > Style Balance (F9) and then pressing both horizontal cursors < & > at the same time to lock the current value (a ¡§*¡¨ is displayed next to the value showing style volume has been locked). This function¡¦s status can be stored in Custom Start Up.
13. Preset Voice Edit : At last, you can now Edit the Preset Voices and Save the result as a Program (original Presets remain unaltered but are used as a reference point). To do this, select your Preset voice (F1-F10) and hold down the related button for about 1 second, then you can now edit all designated parameters displayed on the screen. Once complete, press SAVE and choose your own program location in memory (F1-F10). Then name it using the keyboard¡¦s keys corresponding to the required letters and press Save To Disk (U4) to save to disk or Save (U5) to store it in memory. To play your new voice, simply press the PROGRAM button and locate where you saved your voice to (F1-F10) and play.
14. Edit Micro / Vocalizer : Microphone and Vocalizer Edit features are now accessible by holding down for over a second their related buttons to access their edit screens. This is also true for the Harmony Edit feature (already available as of Audya¡¦s OS Version 3.0).
15. Drum Remap Global : In the DRUM MIXER setting, Drum Remapping can be done either in a Single or Global setting. Press the DRUM MIXER button > GLOBAL or SINGLE (U5) and then DRUM REMAP (U4). Remap values will either be applied to the current Single setting or entire (Global) settings.
16. Metronome : Metronome Volume can now be controlled by the Aux (3/4)/USER Volume slider and signal routed out through the Headphones output.
17. Style Mode : New and exciting Style features within Style Mode Menu:
Ć Original Fill/Break : STYLE MODE >MODES 2/2. Pressing a Fill (F6) or Break (F7) forces the original sound setting of a style whenever recalled.
Ć Intro To Arr A. : STYLE MODE >MODES 2/2. Anytime the Intro is pressed, Arranger A will be select as the next Arrangement to play after the intro completes, regardless of current Arranger selection.
Ć Autocrash Intro/Fill or Break/Riff : STYLE MODE > DRUMS 2/2. Enables the autocrash feature to be heard after an Intro/Fill/Break/Riff is played when turned on.
Ć Inversion : STYLE MODE > CHORD 2/2. User can set appropriate Chord table limits to manage Parallel mode (recycled) - max key chords use before using equivalent lower notes to maintain good harmony.
Ć Bassist Expert : STYLE MODE > Pianist/Bassist. New enhancement on the Bassist feature with advanced chord recognition which allows one to play manual bass freely with no chord interruption.

Bug Fixes:
Several improvements in Harmony, Display, Filter in Midi out Expression, metronome outputs, Mixdown in Audio recording and Lower hold Midi transmission.

Copyright Information:
KETRON Styles are copyrighted, however, when you purchase a Ketron product, you have the rights to use our Styles in your recordings and performances. Unauthorized recording, distribution, sale, lending, public performance, broadcasting or the like in whole or in part, of a work (musical composition, video, broadcast, public performance or the like) whose copyright is held by a third party is prohibited by law.
Do not use this unit for purposes that could infringe on a copyright held by a third party. Ketron assumes no responsibility whatsoever with regard to any infringements of third-party copyrights arising through your use of this unit.

WAVE EDITOR

With Audya¡¦s OS version 4.0, you¡¦ll find within the Wave Player Menu a new WAVE EDIT feature associated with (F9).

In order to use this new function properly, first highlight the wave file to edit - then press the WAVE EDIT (F9) button .


Once the Wave Edit button is pressed a pop up screen will display showing the current loading status. Once completed, the waveform will be displayed on Audya¡¦s screen together with a related tools palette that can be used to work on the imported file.

NB.: A Stereo file will however be displayed on Audya as a single waveform



Beside the new imported waveform, Audya will show three marked lines (see picture with arrows above) to indicate the file¡¦s Starting Point ( Blue ), Fade Start Point ( Grey ) and End Point ( Black)

Here is a detailed explanation of each tool:


1. Zoom: allows one to magnify (or reduce) the waveform displayed.

2. Start: Set the Start Point of waveform (by moving the Blue line which turns red).

3. End (E): Set the End Point of waveform (by moving the Black line which turns red).

4. Norm: Apply Normalize (or amplify) function on the waveform (range 0%-200%).

5. Fade: Set the Fade Out time (shown in ms) related to the End of the original waveform (Max. 8s).

Once you select a new Start (F2), End (F3) or Fade (U1/6) point , the Blue transport bar colour will change to red denoting edit mode (file has changed). All values are editable by alpha Dial (quickly) or by cursor (step-by-step).
Pressing both (Left & Right) cursor buttons (< & > ) at the same time will restore the initial/default value of Start / End point and will restore any previous Fade setting changes made.
Using up or down arrows will automatically initiate Zero crossing function.

As showed in the picture above, when a new parameter is selected, a Preview, Restore and Save tab will appear on the bottom of the display .

What do these newly displayed buttons do? :

1. Preview: Allows one to preview the edited waveform with the new assigned value(s).

2. Restore: Allows one to UNDO the preview action taken on the wave file.

3. Save: Save an edited file with all current changes *or none*.

In order to hear the effects of the NORM and FADE rendered features, the user must select the PREVIEW function. As expected, this feature needs computing time (related to the wave length or size) in order to finalize the result of the current action on the wave file.
The rendering feature will not be necessary when using the START or END features .You¡¦ll be able to hear it immediately .
If for instance you select the NORM parameter at 100% your own waveform will be Normalized in order to gain all dynamic range available. However we suggest to use less (i.e. at 90%) as if any sound source is further applied to this wave, the total output amount could be overloaded -unless a properly distorted or overdrive effect is wanted.
When done, use the PREVIEW and when the computing is completed, you can hear and see the difference(s) as showed in the picture.


Sometimes to get the exact START or END points, it is necessary to use the ZOOM feature to get a closer look at the wave (magnified).
Here are the ZOOM values to consider : 1x, 8x, 16x, 32x, 1:8, 1:4, 1:2, 1:1.
The first 4 values (1x, 8x, 16x, 32x, ) are for traditional magnification of the waveform. The others are useful as Sample windows to analyze waveform as block of 1:8, 1:4, 1:2, 1:1.

In a detailed explanation:

1. Move the Start Point ahead (e.g. set START value to 24040).
2. Select ZOOM feature and assign 16x value.
3. Select the START feature again.

If everything is done as suggest above, the display below should be shown on your screen too (if using the same wave file):


The display will now show a more detailed version of the file with the ZOOM feature :

If the ZOOM is magnified, the display then shows the related value associated with the point selected (Arrow will show value updated),

WAVE EDIT within the MSP template


The WAVE EDITOR menu is also available within the Multi Sampler (MSP) template to create your own MSP (F10).
Simply select MSP Edit once you¡¦ve pressed the WAVE and then EDIT buttons, load your wave file and it will be available on display.


Once the wave file has been loaded and you press WAVE EDIT, Audya¡¦s screen will show a screen shot like the previous Wave Edit screen mentioned above. The main obvious difference is the new LOOP (F4) function only available to the MSP editor.

The LOOP feature, as understood allows one to set a Loop point on the selected wave (that has just been loaded). The LOOP point will be shown on the display by the Green horizontal line (as shown in the picture above). Once LOOP point is selected (F4 button ) it¡¦s value can be edited by the usual directional cursor buttons (< and > ) or with the Alpha Dial.
When both navigation arrows are pressed together, the LOOP point will be set at the same mark as the START point automatically (meaning if the key associated with this waveform is pressed and held, the sound will be repeated from the start of the wave after the entire file has been played). If both cursor buttons are pressed together once more, this feature will be de activated .
NB: The Wave Edit recognizes LOOP Points which can be assigned via a computer using professional Audio Editor. This is usually recommended for more detailed and accurate wave form design.


As previously mentioned, START, END and Loop preview features are available by pressing the assigned wave button of the MSP .
NORM and FADE functions need to be processed before PREVIEW (as previously mention above)
Once modifications are completed, you can save your newly created/edited file by using the SAVE feature.
If while saving, a different name is not assigned to the file, Audya will automatically replace the original file with the new one.

If one of the wave files that makes up an MSP file is to be worked on, you will need to press MSP VIEW to display all the associated wave files within the current highlighted MSP, highlight the wave file needed to be worked on (using the cursor up or down buttons or data wheel), and press ENTER to select it, then press WAVE EDIT to work on the selected file in question.
For this feature, we suggest you use the SOLO function in order to avoid the other associated wave files from all playing at the same time (in other words, all the other files will be muted and only the wave file selected will be heard throughout the entire keyboard range).




SAMPLER

(AUDIO RECORDING FROM AN EXTERNAL SOURCE OR DEVICE)
In the Menu > Audio Recording page, we¡¦ve added a couple of new features called Sampler Rec. Mic. and Sampler Rec. Lin In.
This new feature allows you to record sound directly from either a microphone plugged into the AUDYA¡¦s Mic In jack, or a sound source plugged into the Line in jacks located on the back. Once recording is complete, Audya will automatically go into the Wave Edit mode to allow for modifications and saving of your own sample just recorded.








MIDI DRUM REMIX
AUDYA¡¦s OS version 4.0 also incorporates a MIDI REMIX feature which allows one to replace the original drum tracks of a midifile (usually on track #10 ) with a Drum part of a selected Audya Style (Audio or Midi Drum or Groove) .
Here is an example of how you can create your own MIDI DRUM REMIX replacing the Midi drum track with that from a style (Preset or User styles):

1. From the default screen, press the MIDI button within the Player Section and select a Midi file. [As showed in picture #1 we have select ¡§Raindrops_Keep_Falli.mid¡¨ (whose metronome tempo is 123 BPM ¡V you want to take note of the related BMP of the midifile so as not to select a style whose BMP varies very much from that of the Midifile. This might require you playing the file for a while to see it¡¦s BMP) ].
2. Press REMIX ON (F9) button to activate REMIX ON feature (see Picture # 1).
3. Select your favourite Style whose original BMP (Beats Per Minute ¡K or tempo) is close to that of the Midifile you want to REMIX (15% more or less). If the BPM of the selected style is way greater or less than that of the Midifile, AUDYA will display a warning message informing you to select a more suitable style whose drums will be more compatible with this midifile.
On Picture #2 we selected (for our example) the style
¡§SWING_2¡¨.
By pressing the STYLE VIEW button to display all the style components, and then pressing the DRUM1 (F1) button repeatedly, it¡¦s now possible to replace the current drum kit with either a factory Midi Drum Kit, a factory AUDIO drum or you can also replace it with your own USER AUDIO DRUM (which reside in the USER DRUM Folder of the Audya¡¦s Hard Drive). As you can see in Picture #3 we selected Audio Drum SWING2_120 (120 denotes the original BPM/tempo for this style).
4. Press the USER 5 button (START) to activate the REMIX Feature (this associates the midifile with the drums of the selected style for a couple of seconds).
5. When the association is completed, the START led button will flash denoting it is now possible to play the midi file with your new Audio Drum track .
6. While the REMIXED file is playing, you can also select Arranger A, B, C, D, and also any Fill in the style (as shown in picture #4) to re-arrange the song in real time. Moreover arranger variations can be recorded and played back automatically (see in details Automation Issue below).
7. Press Save to store your own REMIX file while midi file and Remix are running, so that next time you play this REMIXED file, it will automatically use the drums from the current style selected and this process won¡¦t have to be repeated each time.
8. Give a name for your own file, then press Save again. (For further information please refer to the Saving Section).
9. To play the file next time, simply select the REMIX file from disk list by using the Alpha Dial or cursor button. Wait until the RMX file has been loaded - then press the USER 5 button (START).When the led button flashes, press the REMIX button.
Picture#3

Picture #4


In AUDYA¡¦S OS version 4.0, the STYLE and MIDI buttons (located within the User Style/Disk Area shown by Figure #5) have now been activated to control the REMIX feature as such:- they can be used while the Midifile plays to select the drums heard from either the remixed style (STYLE) or the original drums from the initial midifile (MIDI). Moreover, the REMIX function can be linked with a midi file while it is playing. To accomplish this, first select your own midi file - then activate the REMIX function and select your favourite style. You can easily change your style selection while the REMIX plays easily. This is useful as you can now go through various styles as you play to figure out which one best suits your midi file without stopping (For further info please refer to the Tips & Tricks section).

Automation Issue
In order to Save Arranger Variation sequences plus Style and Midi buttons status shown in figure #5 above, you must press the RECORD button while the REMIX function is playing. As you change variations, fill ins/breaks or toggle between the midifile drums and the Audio or Midi drums from the style or User Audio Drums, all event changes will be saved in the Midi file. To complete this procedure, press the SAVE button while the REMIX is still playing with the RECORD button led on. Take note that with this procedure, it¡¦s also possible to record Chord change sequences played to the LEFT of the split point. For further information please read LIVE GUITAR REMIX Part #2 .
HOW TO SAVE YOUR MIDI REMIXED FILE
We add a couple of other options in order to Save a MIDI REMIXED file:
F1¡VStart Bar
F2¡VStop Bar
F6- Save As: Mid-Kmx
F7- RmxGtr

Detailed explanation of each of the new options mentioned above:-
Start Bar and Stop Bar (Picture #6): These bars respectively represent the points within the Midifile at which the STYLE DRUMS (part) will start from (Start Bar) and end at (Stop Bar). NB:- Outside these marker points (Start and Stop bar), the Midi File will play with it¡¦s original Drum part unaltered. So as an example if the original midifile starts at bar 1 and ends at bar 200, and you set the Start Bar=5 and Stop Bar =50, when the midifile starts playing, from bar 1 to 5, you will hear the original Midifile unaltered (i.e. with it¡¦s midi drums), then from bar 5 to 50, you will now automatically here the midifile drums replaced with those of the selected and associated STYLE, and finally from bar 50 to the end of the song (bar 200), the style¡¦s drums will stop and automatically revert to the original midi drums of the midifile ¡V with no further input from the user. If the Start and Stop bar are set to the start and stop points of the entire song, the entire midifile will play with the style drums and the midi drums will be muted througout!
Save As: Allows you to Save your work as one of two file formats:- The first one will be a regular midi file which includes Exclusive messages to play it back with the Remix style parts (as a REMIX). The second one will be renamed as KMX file. This file format is a Ketron proprietary format which includes all information to play a Remix including Style, Transposer, tempo and so on. This file is really useful especially if you want to automatically export all relevant information over to another Audya keyboard and guarantee it¡¦s played properly. Of course all associated resources (Audiodrums, Live guitars,) must be loaded within the other Audya¡¦s Hard Drive too. This is especially useful for musicians who have more than 1 AUDYA at their disposal.
RmxGtr: Live Guitar settings to Save in the global File.




LIVE GUITAR REMIX

In the Midi Remix feature, it¡¦s now possible to add Live Guitars (from a selected style) besides

just the drum parts as previously described above. The Live Guitar¡¦s chords can be played either manually or automatically by Live Guitar REMIX which will derive the harmony chords directly from the midi file and use to automatically change the guitar chords for the midifile .
Live Guitar REMIX mode is set to either (MANUAL) or Automatic (AUTOPLAY) in MENU > KEYBOARD CONTROL > UTILITY (Page #1) -> Remix Live Guitar.
In Manual mode, the User can insert LIVE GUITAR on Midi Remix simply by playing to the Left of the split point of the keyboard while the midi file plays. If set to Autoplay mode (as denoted) Live Guitars will be controlled automatically by the midi file while playing .

How play Live Guitars and associate with a Midifile remix:

Mode 1 - Automatic:
If a Chord (Txt format ) track is built into the Midi file, the Live Guitar will play and automatically change chords with the associated Midifile by simply pressing Menu > KEYBOARD CONTROL > UTILITY(Page #1) >Remix Live Guitar = Autoplay.

CHRD.QUANT:
Here, the Chord Quantize Mode is available. Chord Quantize is really useful to guarantee authentic synchronization for Chord playing with Live Guitar Remix feature.


Mode 2:

Here you could set your own midi track to assign control of the Left Part where the Live Guitars will take their lead from. To do this:-

1. Go to MENU > KEYBOARD CONTROL > UTILITY (Page #1) and set Remix Live Guitar = Autoplay.
2. Next, within the selected Midi File, select the track you want to use to send chord changes for the Live Guitars to follow (parts that use strings or continuous voices are highly recommended over percussive parts like drums or steel drums). Set in the GM PART ¡§Chan TX¡¨ : Left for that channel. Save the Song Set up with F3 flag Part & MIX to On.
3. Now, select your own Style which has a suitable Live Guitar pattern built in to it which you want to assign to the current Midi file. Take note that for many styles, different Live Guitar parts are used in Arranger A, B, C and D so you might want to play around with all and see.
4. Turn the REMIX function - ON (within the Midi Player page selection).
5. When the Midi file starts playing, press the SAVE button to store the Remix feature recorded.
6. Now select once more the midifile just associated with the REMIX and play.

Mode 3:

How to manually record the chord sequence(s) that will be used to trigger the Live Guitar parts when later associated with a midifile (manual chord entry):

1. Go to MENU > KEYBOARD CONTROL > UTILITY (Page #1) and set RemixLiveGuitar = Manual
2. Activate the Remix feature as previously mentioned above.
3. Press the RECORD button while the midifile is playing.
4. Now Play the Chord Sequences to the Left of the split point of the keyboard following the harmony tune of the midifile. The Chord sequences will be record as played and the midifile (once saved in step 5 below) can now be REMIXED with a Live Guitar and the chords will change automatically.
5. Press Save to store all data at the end of the song.


Tips & Tricks:


In order to get the ¡§Best Deal ¡§ between MidiFiles and Styles, first select and play the Midi File in question. Now as it plays, activate the Remix feature - than select a style to link it to !
Keep trying various styles until the best Style is found and keep in mind that the best style part might be in Arranger B, C or D!
Please be aware that associating the Live Guitars at this time won¡¦t be appropriate. You can associate them in the next step.
Once the Audio Drum required is selected (while Drum Remix is playing ) you can now assign your own Live Guitar from a different arranger part of the Style in the Style View Menu and then Save it as usual.
Regardless of the style used (Factory or User) we recommend that once the Remix feature is completed, you should Stop and then Play the midifile once more in order to make sure you created your Remix file correctly.
Of course you could create your own Remix by using User Audio Drums also specifically designed to work with the Remix feature too.

USER LIVE GUITAR

USER LIVE GUITARS have been available in AUDYA as of OS Version 3.0, and are ready to be loaded into RAM/Ins. This feature has now been further enhanced in OS Version 4.0 and is truly more exciting. User Live Guitar are located in the Hard DISK in the USER LIVE GUITAR Folder.

Once you select this folder, the display will now show associated locations to which you can load the Live Guitars to (left of screen) and operating functions (right of screen) along with the User Live Guitars (centre of the screen).
To the left of the display (F1- F4) you can assign 4 available Ins banks from the display centre. To the right of the display, you have access to the following associated features:-


Clear All (F6): Allows one to clear all User live Guitar data previously loaded into memory.
Load GTR (F7): Loads the highlighted User Live Guitar.
Save SEL (F8): This function creates a file with the GBK extension (Guitar Bank) which like a RBK file consists of the single User Live Guitars currently selected. This file can also be assigned as an Autoloaded file which will automatically load these selected guitars whenever AUDYA is turned on. Remember, you loose these guitar sounds whenever the machine is off.
A.Load On/Off (F9): When you turn on Audya, should it automatically load the *.GBK file which loads it¡¦s associated Live Guitars (A.Load - on) or not (A.Load - off)?
GTR Disable/Enable (F10): Enable or Disable User Live Guitar (if you enable this function we recommend saving this within the Custom Startup so it is not repeated each time the Audya is turned on.

Single User Live Guitars can be loaded by simply selecting your own file and than pressing Load GTR (F7) or Enter. Up to 4 User Live Guitar can be loaded at the same time. Once the loading process has been completed, you can then enable the User Live Guitar (F10) so as to play the set by pressing the F10 button (GTR Enable).


In order to Clear or empty the entire User Live Guitar memory (all loaded guitars), press the Clear All (F6) button. To clear a single User Live Guitar loaded in memory (Guitar Group), press either ( F1-F2-F3-F4 ) associated with the sound you want to delete.

Once a User Live Guitar has been loaded, you can then add this to any selected style and use, by substituting Chord 5. To accomplish this, exit from the Disk menu and select a Style. Press the ¡§View¡¨ button to display the various style parts.

Chord 5 (Ch 5) once again may be used to assign (as previously known) a Midi track, a Live Guitar, an Apr&Lick and now ¡K. a User Live Guitar! By repeatedly pressing Chord 5 (F10) until ¡§Live Ins¡¨ is displayed as pictured below ...


¡K you can now use the Data value wheel to scroll through the User Live Guitars you¡¦ve just loaded. You can also freely edit all other style parts and save the new style with your current changes as usual.
NB:- With this new feature, when next you select this style, Audya will automatically load the related User Live Guitar sample(s) if they have not been loaded before.


Remix Exclusive Message List :

Exclusive code for quantize chords on/off
F0 26 7B 6B 03 chrdQuant F7
chrdQuant : 1 = quantize;
0 = non quantize

GM PART Chan TX : Left
F0 26 7B 18 00 PART 11 F7

Load Factory Style:
F0 26 7B 60 03 name 00 F7 factory style load Es. "@POP_SONG"

Load User Style:
F0 26 7B 61 03 fam name 00 F7 user style load
fam 00 = FOLK
01 = BALLAD
02 = POP
03 = DANCE
04 = PARTY
05 = ROCK
06 = COUNTRY
07 = SWING
08 = LATIN
09 = R&ROLL
0A = UNPLUGGED
0B = BALLROOM

F0 26 7B 62 03 group num F7 load style guitar

group = 0 num = 0-7F; load guitars from 0 to 127
group = 1 num = 0-7F; load guitars from 128 to 255


F0 26 7B 63 03 group num F7 load audiodrum (only on stop)

group = 0 num = 0-7F; load audiodrum from 0 to 127
group = 1 num = 0-7F; load audiodrum from 128 to 255
group = 2 num = 0-7F; load audiodrum from 256 to 383

F0 26 7B 65 03 Remix F7

Remix = 0 OFF
Remix = 1 ON



F0 26 7B 64 03 GuitarRemixAutoplay F7
GuitarRemixAutoplay =
1 MANUAL
2 AUTO
0 OFF

F0 26 7B 6C 03 arrVarTab F7 // Arranger Variations arrVarTab

arrVarTab :
ARR_A 0x00 INT_3 0x0a
ARR_B 0x01 END_1 0x0b
ARR_C 0x02 END_2 0x0c
ARR_D 0x03 END_3 0x0d
FIL_1 0x04 BRK_A 0x0e
FIL_2 0x05 BRK_B 0x0f
FIL_3 0x06 BRK_C 0x10
FIL_4 0x07 BRK_D 0x11
INT_1 0x08 MIDI DRUM 0x12
INT_2 0x09 ARR. DRUM 0x13

Clock In GM to Style:
F0 26 7B 6D 03 clockInGMtoStyle F7
clockInGMtoStyle=0=Off; clockInGMtoStyle=1=ON
clock from midi Gm send to midi Keyb.

Remix Sysex Summary:
Remix with drum only:F0 26 7B 50 01 Path_Style 00 F7
Remix with autochord:F0 26 7B 52 01 Path_Style 00 F7
Remix with manual chord: F0 26 7B 54 01 Path_Style 00 F7
Remix with drum only:F0 26 7B 50 01 Path_Style 00 5A Start_Meas(4 bytes) Stop_Meas(4 Bytes) Arr_Initial F7
Remix with autochord:F0 26 7B 52 01 Path_Style 00 5A Start_Meas(4 bytes) Stop_Meas(4 Bytes) Arr_Initial F7
Remix with manualchord:F0 26 7B 54 01 Path_Style 00 5A Start_Meas(4 bytes) Stop_Mis(4 Bytes) Arr_Initial F7

Path_Style Es. "C:\SYSTEM\FACTORY STYLES\@16BALLAD.PAT"
(don¡¦t exceed 63 words)

Start_Meas (Initial measure of Remix) Es.:02 01 00 00 start on mesure 18
Stop_Meas (End measure of Remix)

se Start_Mis = 0F 0F 0F 0F e Stop_Mis = 0F 0F 0F 0F
remix from Start to End point

Arr_Initial = 0 ArrA
Arr_Initial = 1 ArrB
Arr_Initial = 2 ArrC
Arr_Initial = 3 ArrD



[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 04-09-2010).]

Well, If Ian is too chickensh*t to post some T3 or S910 guitar only examples, maybe we got ANOTHER member here with a pair?

This isn't product smackdown, it is simply members providing a comparison that many of us are very interested in hearing. Much has been made of the Audya's guitar parts. Much has been made of the new Yamaha guitar parts. It's only fair to allow the members to make up their OWN minds, especially as many here have no opportunity to hear BOTH of these arrangers side by side, let alone even just ONE of them.

Otherwise, all we are left with is backbiting comments, snide remarks, and no more actual objective information than when the whole thing started. Surely SOMEONE is willing to take five minutes of their time (both have audio recorders, it's the simplest thing in the world to solo the guitar part and hit 'Record') to allow us to compare two highly touted yet completely different ways of doing guitar parts.

I have been all too willing to back up my assertions about the G70 with actual PLAYING. Took me less time than writing a couple of posts. And provided more objective information than a thousand posts.

What is your problem..?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 04-09-2010).]

If there was a chance I would've uploaded some samples, your attitude and personal insults (which got you banned not too long ago) have pretty well nixed it.

You don't want to have another Nigelectomy performed on your sorry butt.

If you keep up this naughty behaviour, I'm going to have to put you over my knee myself

Now behave yourself, and grow some self-control, and manners...you think you would have learned your lesson....obviously, not well enough.

Ian

Coming from someone who has been trading insults and snide remarks with a couple of our members here lately, you aren't in ANY position to criticize me, old chum. Pot calling the kettle black, and all that...

But keep stirring... it's what you are good at!

Spring. Rebirth. Remember?

chas

Not really, but I've been trying to clean up my act, even though I do slip a little now and again...at least I'll make an attempt at removing some remarks that get a little too strong or personal.


On the other hand, you seem to be returning to your pre-ban ways, even using foul (or in the last case, fowl )language, not something I would think a clever wordsmith like yourself would need to do...and, how quickly you forget the agony of being away from SZ...the sleepless nights...the inability to hurl those quick little retorts...how you must have suffered at being silenced.

That's why I'm reminding you...so you won't hurt yourself again.

Ian

Tell you what... you leave the moderating to Nigel, and stick to what you do best. OK?

Diki, Diki, Diki, Diki...why must you be so ungrateful? I was only trying to help.

I must admit, your many stints in the self-appointed role of moderator were pretty good, but unfortunately, you weren't able to follow your own advice.

Still, it's good to have you back...a Diki-less Synth Zone was pretty boring. and I'm sure, in no time, you'll be right back at it again, doing whatever it is you do best.

Ian

Too bad there isn't a pill for "lastworditis". Alternatively, either of you could start a new thread entitled "How to bicker over nothing". That would free up the other threads (and allow the rest of us to go 98% Audya discussion ). Although...........I'm still not missing Tony yet . Just kidding, Tony, I'm sure you're just busy mis-installing OS4 .

chas

PS: Please note the all-forgiving smilies .

Chas...bickering over nothing is far better than bickering over something....you've been there yourself, so I know you'll agree.

The only problem is, like doing nothing all day, is that you never quite know when you are finished.

On a more musical note (pun intended), I actually had the opportunity to play my old Hammond B-3 and two Leslies yesterday afternoon, and will get another shot at it tomorrow...the guy that bought it had a birthday, and of course a party and a jam session...as they say, a good time was had by all, especially me.

You really can't beat the real thing, and as good as the new B-3 sounds are on my S910, they sound pretty lame after playing a real one....just the rapid fire response, and the immediate note triggering was such a joy to experience again.

My leg is sore from playing pedals, but there's no other experience like it...I always say, you don't play a Hammond B-3; you ride it!

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-10-2010).]

Ian may be bickering abut nothing... I'M bickering about the complete refusal to provide any empirical evidence to back up a VERY strongly worded opinion.

If I completely disagree with someone about a musical or sound issue, I am MORE than happy to provide musical evidence for what I believe. I don't honestly expect anyone just to take my WORD for it, and neither should anyone else. Real world comparisons are the only time this forum, to be honest, actually produces anything of any real value other than an opportunity to waste a few hours kaffeeklatsching..

I've learned more about certain things in ONE posted musical example (James' Karma demonstration, for instance) than in a hundred back and forth backbiting sessions.

Thing is, Ian goes out and does a Yamaha clinic, he doesn't honestly expect to stand there and simply TELL everyone how good Yamaha's are. He knows, were he to do this, that a) no-one would believe a word of it, and b) he would be fired on the spot!

I simply can't see why something so utterly easy to do (takes five minutes) is something he is so strenuously objecting to. He's spent more time on this one thread POSTING his self appointed moderator comments than it would have taken him to simply provide a musical example to back up his opinion. So don't think that time is the issue whatsoever...

Why NOT settle the issue in an objective fashion? Or is simply posting snide comments at anyone that disagrees with him simply so much more FUN?

Diki, go try the S910 or Tyros3 in a store and please give it a cut asking me to post samples, when you can easily go to a shop and really test the GTT mode out thoroughly for yourself. There's no proof better than in the playing; you've said that here many times over ad naseum.

I, and a few others, on the other hand, have asked for the Audya's guitars being demonstrated and simply because there is a disagreement that the instrument's use of two different guitar sounds to play complex chords is either transparent or it's more obvious.

Considering that neither you nor I may never play an Audya (nor do I believe you will ever buy one, unless they give it away), it would've been nice to have the earlier demos that were removed, to be once again restored...I don't expect any users/owners to post any, nor am I attempting to force them by the methods you seem to think effective, which to my mind, are just annoying, and in some cases, insulting.

At this point, I'd don't care if they ever post any demos....it's not THAT important to me.

So, do yourself a favor, and go try the Yamaha instruments for yourself...maybe you'll learn that you must have one...I couldn't care less, one way or the other.

And, please (pretty please, even), stop annoying me with your attempts at trying to make me do what YOU think I should do (you are your own worst enema when it comes to diplomacy)...I have already said NO...what part of the word don't you understand?

It's no wonder you run afoul of the forum guidelines so often...you seem to think they are made for everyone but you.

Ian

What hypocrisy.
The very thing you are refusing to do, is the very thing you are asking audya owners to do.

And to be fair to diki, the purpose of asking for both the Yamaha and Ketron guitar examples are to show ALL forum members how the two keyboards address guitar voicings of chords.

Personally I think what both of you all are asking for is pointless because 95% of the time the guitar and the cords would be played with the other parts of the style.

Well, I'd hardly call Diki a hypocrite...he's just enthusiastic, and hell bent on people doing things at his pace, and not their own.

The main issue, and this thread, is about the Audya, and what all the fuss is about it...not how much better the Yamaha arrangers handle complex chords in their guitar tracks.

As I said, I couldn't care less if they (Ketron/Audya users post any demos at this point, and Diki's approach to asking anyone to do something, being a combination of mockery, and provocative statements, it's hardly any wonder anyone posts anything on this forum.

Gee, Genny, I thought you had disappeared...it is wonderful to see you back with all your wonderful, but slightly inaccurate, comments.

Ian

Well Ian
I see that you are still having comprehension issuesļ
This thread was about the Audya but you were the one making baseless assertions that the Yamaha way of playing guitar chords is better. Yet you are unwilling may be unable to back up that inaccurate assertion.

You know what they say. Empty vessels make the most noise.


Or are you afraid that Yamaha may dismiss you for making an assertion that is not true? Or an assertion you do not have the ability to back up?

I didn't ask for a comparison of the two systems...someone else did!

I don't upload specific demos, because I don't do them for free for Yamaha, so why should I do them for nothing here...especially when one of the keyboards in question can be easily demoed at the store. You are another one always saying we should depend on actually playing the instrument and not go by demos. So, follow your own advice, please.

The S910 is not rare. The Audya, on the other hand, is a Yeti at this time, and practically no one can get any time on one, unless they buy one...and their guitar parts were already heard several months ago and deemed to be poorly done (probably why the demos were removed)...even your keyboard plays complex guitar chords in a more homogeneous manner than The Audya.

No, I'm not uploading...firstly, because of my job, and secondly, I don't particularly like the approach being taken in "encouraging" me to do so.

So, the answer is still NO...or do you have a comprehension issue with that?

Ian

Later edit...I have no objection to anyone else with a T3 or S910 uploading and showcasing the GTT guitar parts playing complex chords.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-11-2010).]

There you go again...assuming how I work.

My demos are very informal, befitting the laid back lifestyle of the territory in which I work.

I don't sit there, do a concert, and in between tunes, explain the features of the instrument...my clinics are "interactive" and the attendees are always given opportunities to actually play the instrument and hear directly the features I am explaining and pointing out to them...another reason for not too much of "concert" type clinic/demo, is that it may intimidate any new players from trying out the arranger.

I usually play one "fancy" tune at the end.

My years as an Electone teacher, which involved working with groups, really helped me design my demo method.

I believe my approach works well for my territory, and the sales figures seem to bear that out, although, no doubt, my success is also because the Tyros3, S910, and the CVP-series are all such terrific instruments.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-11-2010).]

I don't know how many times I have to post that I don't live in an area where any Yamaha TOTL or MOTL arrangers are sold for it to actually sink in to your obviously frost-bitten cranium, Ian, but let me try once more...

As to your assertion that you don't want to make an audio example because you wouldn't get payed for it, first of all, let me ask how much you got payed for those tunes you HAVE provided? Yep, didn't think so... Secondly, you are not getting payed one red cent (at least, I certainly hope not!) for all your interminable evangelism here, so why object to something that is easier and might, for once, actually PROVE your point? There's no timeframe issue here. It's not like you said you would do one, and I'm impatient. At the very first suggestion of the shootout, you bluntly refused to do one. And yet, as others point out, hypocritically asking for the same thing you refuse to provide yourself.

If only any of your arguments had any basis in truth, you might be able to get away with this travesty, but sadly, you forget we actually have memories. You've provided uncompensated example in the past (just LOVE to demonstrate those 'assembled' styles, dontcha? ) so perhaps you'd like to go back and come up with some new creative ways of excusing your [insert your own self-moderated word for someone with no guts]?

And, for all our other T3 and S910 owners out there, perhaps just ONE of you has a little less vanity than SOME here and wouldn't mind showing us that they can do something that apparently, a Yamaha clinician can't manage..?

Oh, and take your time, no rush...!

Hi Diki,

When I get the chance I will post something, I don't mind at all. Although I feel guilty starting this thread now (didn't realise it was going to go too that extreme), I just wanted to really ask a simple question (a question that I think I rephrased rather badly). Maybe I should change the thread title to:

"What is it that seperates the Audya from the rest of the arrangers"? Maybe if I had said it in that manner it wouldn't have become so competitive!?



[This message has been edited by DannyUK (edited 04-13-2010).]

Well, my diminutive, and unhappy friend...I feel terrible you are unable to access a Yamaha arranger....I'll probably lose a few minutes sleep tonight.

No Yamaha arrangers?

Do they have indoor toilets and running water in your neck of the woods? Are you still performing in animal skins?

I'll bet it's a bit tough getting the hamster to run fast enough in the wheel, to power that ancient G-70.

As for what I got paid, for posting music in the forum jam session?

Cassp wouldn't pay me anything...how much did you get? I figured, since you had help with yours, you might have asked for enough to cover the assistance.

Thanks, I needed a good laugh today, and I can usually count on you, Your Drollness, to provide a good chuckle, but don't quit your day job, whatever that is.

Ian

Danny, don't sweat it, my generous and kind hearted friend...Diki has no more intention of getting an Audya, than I do.

But, by all means post something...now that you've stated your intentions, he'll be bugging you like a blue-bottomed fly until you deliver.

Ian

Still not enough Nursing Homes and Retirement Communities in my area to justify a high arranger presence in the stores, Ian. Plus, the weather is so good, not too many shut-ins for the winter! That pretty much takes out 75% of the total arranger market except fro the toys for kids section, eh?

We are still more of a Spring Break, young families and singles area than old folks community, so the arranger gets pretty short shrift down here. Sorry it is so different up where you are...!

And yes, I DO like some real assistance on guitar. From actually PLAYING with guitarists, I realize just how pathetic even the best of the artificial MIDI guitar systems can be. This is why I had such great hope and eventual great disappointment with the Audya's guitar system. It WAS a huge chunk for them to bite off and chew out of the gate, and I still believe that technology itself has to advance a couple of more steps before its' promise is fully realized, but OS3 and now OS4 promise upgraded guitar capabilities, and this is what I wanted to hear, especially compared to the best of what the MIDI systems offer.

The Audya is being rapidly improved, and demos from a couple of years ago hardly seem relevant. And Yamaha have introduced an entirely new (and incompatible) guitar system on their newest MOTL and TOTL arrangers. A fair, unbiased shootout seems to be perfectly apropos right now. Let's HEAR what the best and worst points of each system are...

BTW, I am glad my diminuitiveness only extends to my stature, not my mind

Danny, if you're serious about a decent shootout (I really ought to use 'comparison', maybe the terminology - often used by trade mags, though - is what is upsetting some of us? ), how about getting together with TWD and doing some common changes, both complex and simple. I'd still like to hear acoustic AND electrics going head to head, also...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 04-13-2010).]

That's good to hear...we, however actually do very well tourist wise...the scenery in Cape Breton is legendary, it's been rated the most beautiful island in the world several times in tourist and travel mags...for both winter and summer, although we got very little snow this year...probably going to be a hot summer.

With the G-70's rather nice, but average guitar style-tracks (killer drums, though), I can understand why you would need assistance...luckily, Yamaha's superb mega voice technology only makes that another option for me, rather than a necessity, and, although I enjoy the jam sessions I have with my guitar playing buddies, solo gigs are far more lucrative.

I really can't see you wasting money on a Audya...you, with two arrangers that already surpass it for bass and drums....and you, who have guitar assistance available...it seems like a poor investment.

Your guitar player could buy a lot of strings for the price of an Audya.


Ian

Not really that interested in wasting my money on either an Audya OR a Yamaha, to be honest, Ian. Certainly wouldn't want to trade killer drums for killer guitars which is the decision I would have to make going Yamaha's way. Ketron's possibly the only game in town where I wouldn't have to make that compromise without losing fills (Korg's weak point).

But it's all moot, at least for me. I just want to HEAR peoples' opinions, not read about them...! It's all too easy to fall back on old impressions, but as newer keyboards come out, and older keyboards get updated radically, a fresh set of comparisons needs to be done. You wouldn't want Yamaha's judged by a ten year old review, and the pace of modern technology, even a couple of years can make almost that much difference in an instrument that not only the OS, but the SOUNDS and the styles can all be software updated...

Let's all just leave our egos at the door, and try to cooperate with getting REAL information to our members, not simply unreliable opinion...

Cape Breton looks beautiful, but still a little chilly for me right now (78ºF day/60ºF night temps average this week down here). To be honest, I WISH that the music people liked down here WAS simplistic enough to do without a real guitarist, but nothing I can do about that!

That's precisely why I was interested in hearing the old demos of the Audya that were removed...I didn't really expect anyone to upload the guitars parts being soloed again, because, quite frankly, they couldn't have been improved or corrected, or they would have been forthcoming right away, without excuses.

If you remember, one of the tunes I uploaded in the jam, had several people commenting on how good the mega guitars were, including Fran, who loathes Yamaha...you, yourself, said they were exceptional (or words to that effect) so really, I didn't have anything to prove about Yamaha's guitars at all.

I would have posted again, but I honestly didn't like your approach about the whole deal, which was flippant and disrespectful (again), so, quite rightly or wrongly, I decided to say no...however, earlier on in the thread, I did ask politely about the posting and/or re-posting, the Audya guitars soloed, but the new demos weren't of just the guitar parts, so, we aren't any further along than before...really.

So, as it stands, you have already heard and commented on the Yamaha guitars, and the comments were, shall we say, very complimentary, and, you have heard the Audya guitars, and weren't very pleased about them...neither was I, or several others.

Somehow, I don't think we're going to see any change in that situation.

Ian

I thought so, Diki...but, I do share your interest in the Audya's performance.

Heck, the music in your area is no more simplistic or complex than the music of the Maritimes...Celtic, Jazz, Dance, Country, Acadian, Latin, Rock, Bluegrass, Blues, Classical etc...we have it all, like most places that have a rich musical heritage.

And, wanting the guitars in an arranger's style, to play exposed/soloed guitar parts correctly and realistically, is important to ME, regardless of how/why you need to do a workaround by adding a real guitarist.

Ian

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

Ha ha....thanks Taike...I haven't laughed so hard since my mother-in-law fell down the basement stairs...and, no, I didn't push her.


Ian

Diki and Ian,
Ian and Diki,
both can quarrel,
all the way to Waikiki.

I will start another thread so people could vote who among you two would be Walter Matthau and who would be Jack Lemon.

The problem is that whatever my opinion on who is "more right", the only positive thing of all the posts you made in the last pages of this thread is your command of the English language.

I think of it as a lesson, thank you for that, but it added nothing to the actual thread.

It's all Diki's fault...I'm innocent. ...and far more mature.

English? The last test me took, me only made one mistake, and me seen it as soon as me done it.

Ian

Ha Ha Ha, Fran...I love it!

Ian quote...."If you remember, one of the tunes I uploaded in the jam, had several people commenting on how good the mega guitars were, including Fran, who loathes Yamaha...you, yourself, said they were exceptional (or words to that effect) so really, I didn't have anything to prove about Yamaha's guitars at all."


Ian, I don't even think I ever used the word "loathes" in my life..
In truth I do not dislike Yamaha at all..I just prefer other brands in a particular type keyboard..For example Roland and Ketron arrangers over Yamaha arrangers..

I dislike many Roland keyboards and have mentioned why many times...Just because I like the quality and design of a manufacturer..I would not endorse the whole product line...especially if there is somethings I dislike..

In general I dislike "workstations" because I know "arranger" keyboards are a better way of doing things..
Another example..The Fantom doesn't hold a candle next to the G70 for me...Even in the sound department...No great organs, no scats, no great choirs.. are on the Fantom..The G70 has them all..

This same description of sounds, favors the G70 over the Yamaha "arranger" keyboards for me..

Would I take a Tyros3 over a the Fantom,,,,in a heartbeat...

I hope I explained my preferences a little better here....Anti Yamaha..NO.....Anti specific models...absolutely..

Thanks for clearing that up, Fran.

I should mention...one of the faults of the Prelude are the lack of great choir and scat sounds from the GS instruments like the G70...The sound engine on the Prelude is the Fantom engine...to me Roland is moving in the wrong direction if they are dropping the GS sound engine...

We both know what kind of sound we like to hear coming out of our speakers.

Do I like all Yamaha instruments? No, no more than I like all Roland instruments.

The type of sound I like, is present in both manufactures...I like Roland's new HP-307 piano a lot, and Roland's RD-700GX with the SuperNatural piano card in it...I used Roland arrangers for years, until Yamaha caught with them, basically with the PSR-2700/1700 and the PSR-8000.

I would have been using Technics instead of Roland back then, but the former wasn't well represented in my area, and I wanted good support...also I didn't have the luxury of the Internet back then either.

So, I'm, not anti-Roland by any stretch of the imagination...I didn't a buy a G-70/E-80 for their complimentary (to Yamaha) styles and voices, because they were too heavy and awkward to do any gigging with (same reason I didn't get a 9000 Pro)...I considered the Prelude/GW-8, but was quite disappointed in the styles, sounds, and to some extent, the construction...they weren't much better than the old E-70 I had, and were certainly nothing like the G-70/E-80.

Hopefully, the Prelude/GW-8 won't be the last Roland arrangers we see...I was very surprised they didn't make something about the same as an S910 in price range, and features...sort of like a new(er) E-50.

Ian

I'd say Roland will surprise us very soon with another arranger KB TOTL/MOTL.....
just have that feeling....don't count them out..

Thing is, just as you were disappointed that the Ketron's guitars weren't exposed, same thing from me about the Yamaha's, too. I would be using naked guitars a LOT doing what I do, and hearing them that way is the only way to tell. Just as the Yamaha's sound pretty damn good in a mix, I have to admit that the Ketron's also sound damn good in a mix.

It's not until you challenge them with soloing and complex voicings that you start to get the TRUE story.

My take is that, on the one hand, you get better voicings with the Yamaha's (still don't recall an S910 demo from you making the most of the new guitar NTT's, though), but you get better audio realism from the Ketron's. And would LOVE to hear something that proved me wrong...

Diki (who's calling ME a Lemon?!) the Curious

I would prefer Yamaha's accurate/musically correct/realistic voicings AND great sounding guitars (mega voiced, no less), than to listen to Audya's excellent audio guitars with average midi guitars mixed in for the notes the former can't play...that, to me, from the demos I heard posted, sounded fake.

Ian the Discomfited

LMAO

thats the funniest post i ever read on synthzone..hehe

ask a guitarist to play the same chords as your yamaha, say three or four consecutive chords, each one exactly one tone higher than the last using exactly the same inversion but transposed one tone higher each time...just like your keyboard does, and ask him to strum at exactly the same volume every single time and make the length of sustain identical each time too.

and see if it sounds natural...or even possible...lol

yep i'm sure Yamaha's "mega midi guitars" sound far more natural than any live guitarist ever could


[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-15-2010).]

That maybe the case, but I just sold my Yamaha not because of the guitars it was because of the drums. They were horrible. I have to say though the solo voices of the guitars are one of the best I've heard. But Yamaha mega voice guitars just do not make up the entire style. The drums and the other instruments also count. The realism the audya is just unbelievable, midi guitars or not.

mc, i agree

IMO, the Yamaha drums suck
when compared to AUDYA's

if anyone thinks otherwise then they must either:

1- get their ears checked
2- love that plastic, GM'ish sound
3- not care about one of the most important elements of a style, or shall i say the element which MOST gives the style life and that "live" in your face factor
4- not yet TRIED ONE OUT, and A/B'd AUDYA's drums to ANY others (including my beloved G-70)

5- work for or endorse another brand (ie. Yamaha) i think someone here does...hhmmm


[This message has been edited by leezone (edited 04-15-2010).]

Not really, Mr. Dude, although, in my opinion, they do handle the chords more accurately/musically correct/realistically than the Audya...gee, even the old G-70 does a better job...at least it uses one guitar to play all the chord types, rather than need to use two.

Audya's last minute fix is what should be laughed at, although I'm too polite to do so...what a dumb idea, to release a keyboard that has audio guitars that can't play all the chords without needing to add MIDI guitar notes...it's like a guitarist having to get another guitar player to help him play complex chords...that's natural is it?

Naturally fake.

Ian

Yes, Audya does better drums AND bass if you like them dominating the mix....I don't...I prefer an instrument with a smooth balanced sound, like the Yamaha's.

But to try and say that using one guitar to play some of the notes, and another to play the ones the first one cannot, is natural and realistic, is rather funny, especially considering the ones you're trying to pass this malarky off on, are musicians.

Ian

MC..I think you heard what i heard...the tick...tick...tickity...tick of the midi high hat just gets too much after having access to live drums.

I like the checklist leezone, I think the problem is that number 2 indicates a shift in benchmark. I used to get it alot with Hammond. People's benchmark for a good Hammond sound would be the one they are used to. I could write a book (well booklet, well a two page article) on the number of experiences I had with keyboard players doing just that.

And forgive me Yamaha who payeth my Gas Bill last month, but I have to take the shot...

I am certain the Mega Midi Guitars are the best Ian has ever played....until November and the all new Tyros 4 of course when the new "Giga Midi Guitars" will be so much more natural and life like than ever he believed possible and then Tyros 5 in May 2012 with the all new "Tera Midi Guitars" which absolutely blow guitarists off the stage with their realism!

top 10 Acoustic Guitarists of the decade:

1. Tera Midi Guitar (Pat Pending)
2. Giga Midi Guitar (TM)
3. Mega Midi Guitar (R)
4. Michael Hedges
5. Leo Kottke
6. Chet Atkins
7. Phil Keaggy
8. John Fahey
9. Adrian Legg
10. Merle Travis

Mmmmm...AJ and TWD are promoting the Audya on the forum...they are connected with Ketron, aren't they?

We have two music dealers who post here as well, and of course, zealots like yourself, who are blinded by the Audya's great drums and bass, yet refuse to admit the guitars aren't done to the same high standard.

I'm not the only one who thought the Audya's guitars were less than stellar, just as I'm not the only one connected in some way to a company or place of business that promotes and sells arrangers.

Ian

Ian,

it's not QUANTITY we are talking about
we are talking about QUALITY

you think the bass & drums are TOO LOUD in AUDYA? (i don't, but OK)


so all you do is lower 2 faders, and resave style,

in case you don't know,
LOWERING their volumes does not take away from the QUALITY of the sounds (drums and bass)

you still have STELLAR drums and bass that BLOW away YAMAHA'S

so enough excuses that they are too loud in AUDYA,

just lower them, done.

and for our sake here,
PLEASE go try out an AUDYA for yourself,

Yes, Yamaha's mega guitars sure do make a difference in adding realism, but part of that credit goes to the fact that they don't need to add another standard midi guitar to play the notes the former was unable to play.

They did it right at the beginning.

Now, with the newly added GTT mode, the voicing is based on a real guitar player's way of doing it. Audya needs two guitar players, each one playing a different instrument, to accomplish (sort of) the same thing.

Pretty lame, and quite likely done at the last minute, probably due to lack of resources to finish the job properly.

Ian

Not just too loud, Lee, they are just done to a much higher standard than the guitars, so they can't help but jump out at you.

Not everyone likes to hear mainly bass and drums...I don't...I like a more balanced sound, a nice mix, probably not suited to the dance crowd, but more to the listening audience.

Personally I don't think the Audya's great bass and drums compensate for the poorly implemented guitar track. You have a different opinion, and of course, you're welcome to it...it doesn't make mine any less valid...it just doesn't coincide with yours, that's all.

Ian

Ian,

I do not see or hear how a midi (computer based) guitar track from Yamaha could sonically sound better than a real audio track. To me, it doesn't make sense.

I would take the guitar tracks on my SD1plus over a Tyros 3 any day. I could not have possibly recorded all my original music with a Yamamah product and get the same authentic sound.

We'll agree to disagree.

I really enjoyed your music, and I respect your fine work, Dan...I think you are a true pro and a highly accomplished musician.

I agree that an audio guitar track might sound as realistic, or sometimes, more realistic than a standard midi guitar track, but we aren't just talking standard midi guitars; we need to acknowledge that Yamaha's mega voiced guitars are able to achieve a much higher degree of realism, and, the new GTT mode, takes them to another level.

Where the Audya's audio guitars fail, in my opinion, is that they can't play complex chords, without the addition of standard midi guitar notes...yes, the audio guitars sound very real, but the addition of lesser quality standard midi guitars takes away from the natural sound.

When they are able to recognize all guitar chords and voicings, solely with audio guitar tracks, then I will say they have reached an equivalent (but based on a different concept)level to Yamaha's success with mega voices.

Again, this is one opinion being different than the other, and, like you, I'm content to agree to disagree...I've made my point, as have you.

Ian

good gracious....how many times does one have to repeat the same thing over and over before it starts to sink in? or is it a case of selective hearing?

that list of chords way back in this thread was pretty exhaustive...go back and check. certain inversions on the audya do not have a live guitar because it is physically not possible for a guitarist to play that inversion (however other inversions will play). It doesn't matter how much money you throw at a recording studio if the guitarist can't strum a particular inversion then it cannot be recorded.

So there is a choice, 1) forget live guitars and use old fashioned midi guitars all the time, 2) pop in a chord inversion thats too high or too low, 3) just leave that particular chord inversion blank OR 4) you use a mix of midi and arpeggio guitars to make the transition flow on the very few inversions that do not have a live strumming guitar.

In the tiny ammount of inversions that are not playable (I think there were only three chords in the list) on only some styles the midi guitar will cut in but its an exception rather than a rule and in the year or so I have been playing and listening to the Audya it has never come up with myself or any of the pro players that use the Audya to earn a living from.

Despite what you said, in the MP3 that was posted a few days ago you can very clearly hear the complex chord progression and inversions. I know you said you can't hear the guitar, but quite honestly I wonder what might have happened to your hearing if that is the case?

can anyone else NOT hear the guitars in this:
http://www.ketronmusic.co.uk/media/chords.mp3

Just curious here, and no particular preference for either a Yamaha or a Ketron, but if an inversion is not physically possible on a guitar, then why, realism being the goal, would we need to play it on a keyboard? What piece of music would call for that particular inversion since no composer would write it? It would seem to me that the manufactured keyboard inversion is of no particular use anyway.

keyboard players tend not to worry about which inversions are playable on a guitar when they play the keyboard and normally stick in the same octave range for most chords as you probably know. Most don't worry about the composer either and just play what sounds right to them.

some keyboard players don't even keep in an instruments range on the right hand part so what hope do we have for inversions?

as mentioned before, the one thing that is better than having live guitar strumming on the Audya is a live guitarist sat next to you when you play the Audya. But the Audya provides a nice alternative in the absence of said guitarist.

Good gracious....how many times does one have to repeat the same thing over and over before it starts to sink in? Or is it a case of selective demo playing.

My concern was how the guitars handled inversions and complex chords on their own.

That's how they were first demo'd here, and several of us were able to hear (or distinguish) the midi guitar adding the notes the audio guitar could not play.

As I said earlier, sometimes a player wants to start out a tune with just the guitar part...it's done a lot in music, especially country and pop, but pretty well all genres have tunes that begin that way.

Your demos, while showcasing the bass and drums, which are good, and obviously the instrument's best feature, and main selling point, do nothing to allow the listener to hear the guitar parts on their own...you're even playing a melody over the top.

Now, you are either missing my point entirely, either by selective reading, or perhaps, you might want to hide the guitars because of their unnatural voicing...I don't know, and , at this point, I do not care.

If I was the only one who heard the badly done guitar parts, I'd say, perhaps my hearing is shot, or selective, or whatever....but, I wasn't the only one...there were several of us.

It's highly unlikely we all have the same hearing problems.

So, it's highly likely what we heard, was exactly what was posted.

Ian

No, Audya would be more likely an alternative to two guitarists...one who couldn't play complex chords, and another who helped out by filling in the notes.

Ian

I like to start a tune with guitar (in the style) only...run these chords, for example...C...Cmaj7th/B...Am...Am7th/G...F...Fmaj7th/E...Dm...Dm7th/C...etc.

Can the Audya play these chords using only the audio guitar track, and have the audio guitars play the inversions with the proper bass note?

As I said, quite a few tunes start with guitar only...an arranger being able to read inversions using/playing the guitars only, would only be doing a normal task.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-15-2010).]

Yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack...

You see now why all I want is two friggin' AUDIO examples?

You are going round in the same ever tighter spiral til you all disappear up your own poopchutes that this thread STARTED on..!

I DON'T CARE what you THINK about either of the guitar systems. ANY OF YOU...

I just want to hear them naked, back to back, and make my own bloody mind up.

Can't SOMEONE get of their bloody high horses and just provide something other than yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack, yack...?

I dont know Diki...after reading that little gem, you appear to be the king of "yack"...you should cut yourself a little yack...er....flack...ahhh...slack; yeah, that's it, slack...cut yourself a little slack, or you're goin' to be back on your back with a smack and end up hurtin' yourself again.

The corollary being, "Step back; don't yack, cut yourself some slack, and don't talk back with your yackity yack."

It's no wonder I love this place.

Can the Yamaha PSR s910 play those chords?
It is very easy to say "yes" but can you "show" yes?


At least with the Audya we have a demo that demonstrates that the Audya can play those chords whether or not some members choose to hear it.

If on the Audya demo the guitar tracks with all the other parts sounds great, why do you think it will sound so different with just the guitar track alone?

And, if you think it will sound different then lets hear the same for the Yamaha. Because right now, for this discussion on this forum, we don’t have proof that the Yamaha can do the things you are asking if the Audya can do.
All we have is your word that the Yamaha can do it which is as good as Diki’s word that the MS is the best arranger on the market.

I've already uploaded a song, way back in the jam sessions, that shows the Yamaha can play complex chords without needing the assistance of another guitar.

I believe the Audya will sound different with the guitar tracks alone because that's the only way you can hear them plainly...and, as I said, many tunes start with just guitar.

The thread is about the Audya (see the title).

I'd also like to hear it play chords like these, for example: C...Cmaj7th/B...Am...Am7th/G...F...Fmaj7th/E...Dm...Dm7th/C...using ONLY guitar tracks.

But, as I said in an earlier post, I don't expect anyone to upload an example like that...why would they?

If you have played a PSR-S910, a Tyros3, a Tyros2, a Tyros, a PSR-S900, a PSR-3000, you will have had the opportunity to see/hear the Yamaha mega guitars play complex inversions and chords without a hitch...surely you can find one of those instruments, and prove it to yourself....that's the best way, and a way you've always been crying for everyone to use....so take your own advice.

Ian

But did you play the Yamaha with just the guitar track alone? And yes this is about the Audya but you are the one talking about how great Yamaha is and how it can play complex chords but can not provide proof of it. Yes as you pointed out it is always best to try an instrument out for yourself. So why don’t you do the same for the Audya.

The fact is you (as a Yamaha rep) kept harping that the Yamaha is better at playing complex chord than the Audya. And you are doing that in an Audya thread. Some one has proven you wrong by putting up a demo that shows that complex chords can be played seamlessly on the Audya. You say no and that you want to hear the guitar by themselves and that the Yamaha could do it much better. You are unwilling to prove the point that the Yamaha could do it better but still are requesting that someone put up another Audya demo with just the guitar part.

If I wanted to hear how the strings section of a style sound by them selves, for something as nitpicky as that, I would go and see the keyboard in a store.
But I could understand your position that since you don’t have any intention to get an Audya, and since it is easy to say words to put down your competition, putting your self out to play the keyboard is not an option.

Yes, the guitar parts were exposed (soloed) in the first verse.

I did provide proof of it...at the time, it wasn't why I uploaded the song, it was just a casual jam session, and several listeners commented favorably on the guitar parts.

I am not a Yamaha rep...I am a clinician....I am no more a rep than you are.

I am not "harping" about how well the Yamaha does the chords...I was interested in how the Audya plays complex chords and inversions using the audio guitars...that's all...my questions weren't answered to my satisfaction. I mentioned the Yamaha handled the chords with no issues...I certainly didn't need to, or did I ever, "harp" about them....I was more interested in the Audya.

So, I have nothing to prove, especially since my my queries have not been met to my satisfaction.

I would suggest trying an S910 or T3 for yourself.

I'd love to actually play an Audya...I'd finally get to hear how it plays the guitar parts, but the dealers in my area wouldn't bring in an instrument like the Audya...too risky, according to them.

So, I don't have luxury of playing one, and must depend on on-line demos....have you played an Audya?

Certainly one of the Yamaha above is within your area...go try one, especially a T3 or an S910, and put it to the test...your test.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-16-2010).]

The yack yack yack is becoming a yuck yuck yuck.. I may be a crack, but I am not a chuck.

Can we start another thread ? I'm having a tough time deciding who is right and who is right.

ok...I just did two examples using Ians chords:
http://www.ketronmusic.co.uk/media/chords/chords.mp3
http://www.ketronmusic.co.uk/media/chords/chords2.mp3

Not too shabby, TWD, but it is as I suspected....the guitars don't play the descending bass line...they need the actual bass to provide that...it's too bad you had to add the drums, but otherwise it sounds pretty good.

Thanks,

Ian

Sorry I thought you wanted to hear the bass play the bass line?

Actually I never heard a guitarist play a descending bass line the same time as he strums...is it even possible?

As for the drums, I played the whole sequence twice, once without and then added so you could here the same thing in a mix.

Would be fantastic if you could do the same now on one of the Yamaha's; one with nylon guitar and one with acoustic, it only took me a couple of minutes to do both files.

Having the actual bass play along with the guitars, is not playing the guitars on their own.

I did ask for the guitars with nothing else (as Diki said, "naked guitars"....I'm curious to see if the guitars themselves will play a descending bass line...or ascending, or whatever...strumming or picking or both...kind of nice to have them read the chords properly, including on bass, when starting a tune with just guitar.

The guitars sound terrific otherwise, as they should since they are audio recordings.

Thanks again,

Ian

ian,

can you give us some naked guitar of your own from your BELOVED Yamaha, playing all those pretty inverted, complex, descending stuff ???

enough talk

prove what you say

it would probably take 1/2 the time to do vs. all your repeated posting

we wanna listen to how much better the Yamaha accomp. guitars are than AUDYA's as YOU say

I can't realy grasp what your asking for and if I do understand you...I don't think its possible for a guitarist to do that - hence the Audya wont either.

Could you post a couple of examples using the Yamaha? (1x classical and one aoustic) I would like to hear what you mean. It only took me a few minutes to do those.

To keep it simple, I took the basic style Variation, A, and turned off all parts but the guitar...MP3's are in 192 kbps...I added a few chords as well, but still stuck to the ones you played.
http://www.4shared.com/audio/7K64seWa/AcRock.html
http://www.4shared.com/audio/0-_LOvBw/Ballad.html
http://www.4shared.com/audio/GdD14mFk/Bossa.html

WOW. Well guys even though i did not really like all the goading that was going on in this thread , the result actually was very eye opening. My conclusion is that

1. The audya actually handles complex chords well and if midi tracks were being used then i could not tell when they kicked in
2. That the yamaha guitars sounded to me (and i play guitar) just as good as the Audya real guitars tracks.

Which brings me to conclude that at least in this limited but important test , in terms of midi guitars and audya guitars the difference in terms of authenticity was negligible. Certainly not worth paying twice as much for. Now i know someone is going to say i need to hear the instrumenyts in person and not via a download blah blah but both instruments are working from the same or similar position so i have no doubt they would both sound great in the flesh so to speak. My qurestion now is what else can the audya do musically better than any other arranger to justify the price.

Dont get me wrong i have listened to some of the audya demos and heard those incredible funk basses and drums. But thats a lot of money to pay for that advantage.

By the way gents, i just want to commend you both for actually playing your instruments . sometime i feel like noone on this board actually does that anymore :-)


Thanks again chaps

Just as a clarification...I used the PSR-S910, as the Tyros3 is at the rep's place.

Ian

Thanks Ian, they sound pretty, although you would need two guitars to strum and play a bass note in real life.

I liked the classical guitar, although you can hear the sequence repeating (fret noise) every few bars which is a little annoying once you notice it.

thank you Ian for taking the time
GREATLY appreciated

THANKS you also for making me realize how the YAMAHA's guitars pale in comparison to the AUDYA's IMO

this makes my decision in getting the AUDYA a no-brainer,

so it's not just bass and drums that shine with AUDYA, it's guitars too,

Thanks TWD...I just grabbed the first styles I saw in each category...there are some that are done over 8 and 16 bars that have less repetition...I also used only the A variation.

The T3 sounds even better....no kidding...the S910 is under $2000 retail, so I think it's a great bang for the buck.

I'm a guitar player, and those chords are possible on one guitar...sometimes it depends on the key you play in, and, of course, your skill level.

And no, I'm not uploading my guitar playing.

Ian

You're welcome, Lee, and somehow, your decision in getting the Audya being a no-brainer, is somehow ironic.

If you don't buy a Yamaha, or Korg, or whatever, it just means it frees up one for someone who really wants one, so your decision is a positive one for all concerned.

Looking forward to your review, and maybe even a little demo.

Ian

As this thread was about the Audya (not knocking the Yamaha in any way) I just want to say this by way of summary;

The Audya is not about any one aspect, its not just the massively long drum loops recorded by specialist percussionists, the very cool and unpredicatble bass player that changes riffs on each chord variation, the live acoustic, classical and electric guitars or even the natural sound of the lead and pad voices, its all of those elements combining together to make you feel that you are playing with live musicians.

Its that unique experience that gives owners of Audya's the lift that only can be found when you play with other human beings...and that is something that cannot be demonstrated by any ammount of demos, sound bites, questions or discussions.

And only those of us that have played with live musicians can know what I am talking about.

tonewheel

thanks
i've played with live musicians most of my life
now, due to economy, more duo work

so yes i miss playing with that live feel

but not for long :-)

when is that AUDYA4 coming out again?

Of course TWD...that's why the Audya costs so much...understandably so.

It still doesn't replace playing in a "live" band, as the players play differently every night...and only those of us that have played with live musicians can know what I am talking about.

Still, the Audya is another step closer to sounding "live" when using an arranger, and, it does sound very impressive.

Thanks for uploading the guitar tracks.

Ian

Ian,

I think you AND Diki are both starting to fall in love with the AUDYA :-)

The "only" time guitar sounds realistic..when it is played "correctly" as a guitarist would voice chords....a keyboardist style play, just doesn't cut it..sure it can sound ok, but will not sound real...including the favorable Yamaha "Concert" guitar...

I understand why certain chord inversions are not possible on the Audya...because they are not possible on the real guitar and guitarist that played the recorded audio tracks...This isn't difficult to understand..

So they left in the capabilities of a midi sorted guitar to fill in for the more "novice" keyboardists trying to produce a real guitar part....Does it sound real? No, not at all to someone that knows what a guitar can and can not play...For the vast majority that it sounds ok, because they don't know better....the midi guitar parts will sound ok to them anyway..

Just listen to sequences (midi), that a guitar part is recorded by a keyboard player, and listen to a midi sequence recorded via a "Midi guitar" and a guitarist....I rest my case...

Audya is on the right track.....If you like your midi guitar strums that do not and can not sound like a real guitar....be happy and play them..

BUT!!!!!!! Don't fault the company that does it right...


I have been fortunate enough to know keyboard players that excelled in voicing guitar on a keyboard...no coincidence that they were also great guitarist...

Me..I am one of the keyboardist that struggle to sound like a guitarist...

But I do recognize the difference...

Well perhaps Diki will fall in love with it, but not me...I like the balanced, detailed and cohesive sound of Yamaha...works perfect for both live and for making CDs, and that's what I want in a keyboard.

But I must admit, the Audya is probably the most overall "live" sounding arranger today, plucking the crown from the aging G-70, and perhaps the Korg series as well.

But, as I say, we all know what we want to hear coming out of our speakers...Audya works for you, and maybe Diki, and perhaps it will finally get Fran away from that old G-70.

It certainly has you completely overwhelmed.

Ian

"will finally get Fran away from that old G-70."

Not I..I can't afford an Audya...I would have to give up my waffles with strawberries and ice cream...

Just be careful you don't lose that graceful svelteness, or dem wimmen roadies gonna leave ya for the Lean Mean Pesce Machine, and you'll have to lug the G-70 by your ownself.

He's savin' up all the energy he don't use when carrying that lovely and light PSR-S910...and dem wimmen be all over him like you on those waffles with strawberries and ice cream.

The S910 is a gigging musician transporting dream come true...
so lightweight....lightning fast keybed....& sounds so good!
What more can you ask for?

an AUDYA ;-)

I'd much rather have some of Fran's waffles with strawberries and ice cream...in moderation, of course.

Can you imagine how many posts there will be on the Audya if Lee every buys one and it doesn't live up to the hype?
I hope he gets to find one and try it first.

(Donny Yamaha S910 artist)

when Frank gets one in AUDYA4/5
i'm headed to Connecticut :-)

why not just go now and try out the Audya itself?...same thing.

no...not same thing

AUDYA4/5 with OS4 (with NEW sounds,NEW styles and NEW audio loops)
is NOT the same thing as "OLD" Audya

i wanna see AND try the EXACT product i am buying :-)

[This message has been edited by leezone (edited 04-16-2010).]

Lee may I ask what your using now and why your so intent on a change that you can't get with your current rig? Just wondering.

i'm using both a G-70 and a XD3. mostly XD3 now

my gear serves me quite well now and has for many years,

just looking to step up my overall sound,
give it some "liveliness", improve it,

so i don't sound like EVERY other duo/band out there

The trick to not sound like every other single, duo or trio out there, is to make/edit/assemble your own styles, and either play them as is, or use them to make your own SMF of the songs you do.

It's one step further than just using an Internet acquired SMF that everybody has, and it is also is a lot of fun as well, helping you get to know your instrument much better.

Just using another keyboard to play SMF will not put you that far ahead...you may sound more "live" than others, but you won't sound a whole lot different.

Do you primarily use styles or SMF? What percentage of each?

Ian

Well then... if I were you I'd be jumping all over the Tyros 3 utilizing all the fantastic SA & Mega features that are pretty much unmatched when played properly....but good luck with your journey to the land of the "PERFECT" arranger KB.

d.

on version 4 you can swap out the midi drums of an smf file with the live drums. basically you select a live drum style thats similar, play the midi file and record the live drums in real time using fills, breaks arranger parts etc. you can even do the same with the guitars. once you have finished just resave...job done...live sounding midifiles.

Ian,

when i said: give it some "liveliness",
i meant with AUDYA's kick @ss bass & drums,

Dnj,
i've tried the Tyros3, heard it, played it
and honestly think the drums suck, bad...
sound thin, plastic-like, hated it
EXCEPT for some mega voices, SA guitars, etc,
so i'ts ONLY the right hand i liked (solo voices),

all else leaves MUCH to be desired on the Tyors3 including the styles.

for ME,
AUDYA by a long mile

[This message has been edited by leezone (edited 04-16-2010).] spelling mistakes :-)

[This message has been edited by leezone (edited 04-16-2010).]

Yes, good drums and bass can certainly give you a more "live" sound...I guess I was thinking that you wanted to sound "different" from other duos etc...the only thing, in my opinion, that will do that successfully is to use your own arrangements for the tunes...varying enough so that you have your own stamp on them, but, still retaining a certain amount of the original...enough that still makes it instantly recognizable or perhaps, even coming as a surprise to listener.

I suppose I'm suggesting more "individuality"...hotter bass and drums, will only do so much...the rest will rely on the player's (or programmer's) creativity.

I sure hope whatever Audya you get, in any of it's forms, does not turn out a disappointment to you, as you will have a long walk back on the yellow brick road you've been paving over the last few months.

The Tyros3 has it's own unique following, and those who buy and use it, certainly will not agree with your assessment and borderline bashing of the product...it tells me a lot about you, and your hope that the Audya will somehow magically make your act/show a lot better...I think you shouldn't depend on any instrument to do that, but rather work on your presentation/arrangements etc...but that's just my opinion.

Will you be uploading a demo or two? Perhaps, if you are reticent about posting on the forum, you could send me a bit of your work via private message....maybe something done with the G-70 and the Ketron you have now, and something done with the Audya...I'd like to hear the dramatic improvements, you seem to be so sure, the Audya will bring.

Ian

Thanks you two for demonstrating your respective instruments.
Both of the demos sounded really good.
It is clear that both instruments can make a person sound good.
One of the main differences in the price difference is the ability to make the instrument your own.

Microsoft works and Microsoft Word can both provide a way for you to type documents but there is a price difference between them because there is a feature difference between them.

Thank you for taking the time to show us all the each keyboard.

I found the audya guitars much more lively, authentic and fuller. The Yamaha sound also good. But it lacks that realism and they are definitely compressed compared to the Ketron. Now hearing them side by side you can really hear the difference in a midi based guitar like Yamaha and audio guitars in the audya. I’m sorry but I’m not convinced that the Yamaha sounds anywhere near as good as the audya, but JMO!

I agree, mc, the Audya does sound more lively, or "live"...of course we are comparing an mid-range arranger to a high arranger that costs nearly three times as much.

Some people, myself included, like Yamaha's compressed and balanced sound, just as much as those who appreciate the Audya's "live" sound.

I can tell you fall in the latter category, but you've always been a fan of the Audya since it's inception.

It is definitely the most "live" sounding arranger today.

Do you have one already, or are you planning on getting one when they have the operating system upgrades sorted and/or completed?

Ian

That's probably the most biased and unrealistic bit of trash I've ever had to read on this forum, are you serious? How on earth you can dismiss the styles of the Yamaha when most of them are better arranged than the Audya's?? I know you are clearly an Audya fanboy and that nothing is going to change your mind because you are totally obsessed with something in your mind and it has completely placed you in a cocoon.

I am sure you are a really nice chap in reality, but I have to admit I am getting a little irriated reading your comments regarding the T3 because all I have seen from you are ignorant, illinformed, destructive and biased opinions completely dismissing the Tyros in virtually every category.

There is nothing wrong with the drums of the Yamaha, they are excellent, there is nothing wrong with anything of the Yamaha. In actual fact, before I bought the Tyros, I very interested in buying an Audya and I based my final choice after hearing the styles very closely and I think as much as the Audya styles are excellent, the Tyros seems to have a better range and are more modern/playable. Every intro I hear on the Tyros makes me think of a song, I don't get that with Audya.

I've never said anything derogatory regarding the Audya, I've heaped nothing but praise for it. I expect the same kind of responses for all keyboards because they are all excellent if there should be any criticisms voiced then I welcome any comments that contain a logical and constructive view, and from what I've seen of all your comments Lee it reminds me of when I was at school.

I'm sorry if my post sounds harsh but I think it needed to be said.

Danny.

Just to add, I am not picking on you Lee, but I have really enjoyed everybody elses observations because each other person has provided an interesting view and very logical. All you see to do is provide an emotive and biased opinion, non constructive, that is why I haven't been able to take you seriously.

[This message has been edited by DannyUK (edited 04-17-2010).]

You started this thread and now your upset at the outcome. As you stated: "Well I think I am going to open a can of worms maybe, so be it."

I owned a Yamaha s900 for a few years and I had a real issue with the drums. I bought a s910 tried and returned it. Same issue, the drums.

To each it own, so be it!

I don't own Audya, I had a Yamaha, which I just sold recently. Not sure what I want yet.

No no, constructive criticisms are fine, and if someone doesn't like something then fine, but simply saying that something "sux" is just really ignorant, that's all I am saying. How can anybody take something seriously with that type of response? Give reasons, explanations, a good logical debate is exactly what forums should be about, it's pretty easy to say "yeah that sux and mine is better", my 12 year old daughter says that to me all the time, I don't really expect to see that type of statement in a professional forum like this with where I expect to see intelligent constructive comments about any instruemnts and especially one that I just paid 3 grand for!

Danny.

Just to add, I am still very much interested in an Audya because it is an excellent sounding instrument.

[This message has been edited by DannyUK (edited 04-17-2010).]

Are you considering an Audya?

I'm aware the Yamaha drums didn't do it for you, but what else, besides the Audya would you be considering?

What about a Korg PA, or say, a second hand Roland G-70?

They have "live" sounding drums and bass, and aren't as compressed or balanced as the Yamaha.

Ian

The PA series has excellent drums and that's coming from a PA1X owner as well!

Just shows why both keyboards are relavent because they are designed for a very different target audience.

What you find is a positive was (and still is) my biggest personal gripe with Yamaha for many years and one of the biggest reasons for my own dislike of them. I hate that if you want to play a certain song you have to try 20 or 30 styles until you have the right one, or just use the Yamaha song library...its all very 'home organish'.

What excited me about the Audya is that it is back to the roots. you can pick a style and play many different songs with it, just like you would with a small band. Yamaha's styles (whilst in the UK are perfect for the intended market...ex home organists) sometimes they only fit one song and in my book its next to Karaoke for Keyboard when that happens.

TWD, the only Ketron I owned was an X1 and it was beautiful. What struck me about your previous post was what you disliked about the Yamaha is what I found the problem with the Ketron, I found the styles really difficult to suite my type of music, or rather, to suite the range of music I play. I love Latin and being Italian of course Latin styles are important so no problems there, however, I found the rest of the styles a little out of range with the rest of the stuff I play, the most difficult and unsuitable were Ballads and Dance. The quality of those styles were not in question, but I found they sounded very similar. That is why I then traded the X1 for a PA-80, then to a PA1x, they had what I needed and what I am finding with the T3.

Don't forget, I used to also own a PSR8000 and if my posts still exist here from when I first posted it many moons ago, you will see that I also did voice my reservations about the quality of the drums as well, especially Latin. After hearing the T3, I believe that Yamaha have really improved the drums to the point where they were convincing enough for me to buy into Yamaha again.

If we are talking home market, then I think the Yamaha is better suited, it's seems to be more varied and sounds fantastic too. The Audya seems to be geared towards the other end of the spectrum, but that doesn't mean the T3 can't perform on a live stage either.

Ketron seems to have produced an instrument to suite the live player first and foremost and I guess they have deemed the Drums, Bass and Guitar sounds as being those primary sounds above all, and I agree. This is where I agree with Ian though where he says the Yamaha is more balanced, it's more varied.

[This message has been edited by DannyUK (edited 04-17-2010).]

Wow! it took you trying 20 or 30 styles to find the right one?

Ha Ha...that's pretty good.

Most pros can find a style very quickly, on any arranger...especially after they've spent a bit of time with it.

AND, no one is forced into using the long intros...they're okay once in awhile, but most pros using a Tyros/PSR-S-series, or G-70/E-80 or PA2XPro/PA-800/500 rarely use the big intros, and generally play their own...I know I do.

Plus, you can play all kinds of tunes with each Yamaha/Roland/Korg style...you just have to be a little creative.

I don't actually dislike any other arranger...they are all excellent today, and I simply picked the features and sounds that I liked best...just happened to be Yamaha.

Ian

What I dislike on Ketron Kb's is the Drums. They have a "SHELLY" type sound for my tastes which makes them much to prevalent in the mix.....I much prefer a tighter balanced mix.

Danny, I agree with you completely about the X1. I still like that keyboard, although its a little dated now. I also have a PSR8000 standing on its side in a cupboard. I preferred the X1 because the sounds were better and more playable for me (the 8000 always sounded like it needed to be played 1/2 octave lower), but did like the overall design of the 8000 over the X1.

I strongly believe that the T3 (4 from November I guess) has its rightful place just as the Audya does and I think so far only Nitelife has actually realised that both keyboards can be of very good use to a performer.

I can only presume you are listening to demos through your pc speakers or a poor quality PA. I am a sound engineer and absolutely the Ketron on board drums are the only ones on the planet (of the current crop of arrangers) that sound any where near as good as a well mic'd up drum kit.

Ketron equipment can't be used with normal keyboard amps or lowend pa, you have to use HiFi quality gear, if a CD player sounds correct through a PA then so will a Ketron.

And if the drums are too much in the mix then its almost certain you are using low quality speakers or amplifier. To test it, play any current CD that has a live drummer. You will find you hear the drums and vocals louder on poor quality gear and you miss definition on bass and pad sounds. And if its still too much when your playing a Ketron, then just turn them down, every Ketron keyboard ever made has quick access volume controls.



[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-17-2010).]

agree, agree, agree,

TOO loud? put your hands on the fader and lower,

but this is hard for some people to comprehend

and Danny,
not bashing Yamaha,
it's just MY OPINION,
i hate Yamaha drums
you may love them

for ME, for MY music,
hands down AUDYA

I stand by my opinion on Ketron Drums, Yes I have performed on stage with many Ketron models, & yes I have top quality speakers, PA, and monitors...to each his own. Sound engineer means nothing to me....after 40 years performing the only thing I trust is MY EARS!

enjoy

Of course, this is your opinion, and I respect it, and perhaps it is because English is not your first language, that you find it difficult to use less brutal words?

I'm almost beginning to grasp your zealousness and blind faith in the instrument (on one playing experience), Lee...it is rather good, especially the drums and bass, and, at it's present selling price, I'm sure you feel it's a bargain for what it does, and how it will improve your sound.


I can also understand Mr. Tonewheeldude's ebullience for the Audya, as I believe he is in retail, and sells these things...hence all the Ketron support...they obviously need it, considering all the operating system issues.


Ian






[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-18-2010).]

Thats ok, much depends on your playing style. But also our ears become adjusted to the things we know. Its why so many people can stand stuff like the B4, Oberheim and other Hammond Clones.

I once spent a whole day with a well known keyboard player adjusting a Hammond XK3 to get it sounding as he thought it should. He finally decided to buy it and brought his Korg CX3 in to part exchange. to his dismay we had made the XK3 sound exactly like his CX3. He was so shocked that his 'benchmark' had shifted so far away from a real Hammond that he reset the organ and played it as it came from the factory.