Would you play a 2-manual arranger?

I know there are many present and former organ players here, so let me ask:
1. Would you consider using a double-manual arranger?
2. If you did, would you play more like an oranist again?
3. Would you consider pedals?
4. What would you require in a 2-manual arranger?

If it could be kept to the weight of a Nord C1/2 (under 35 lbs), I'd want the top manual 61 keys organ action (velocity can be ditched on organ sounds), and bottom manual 76 note weighted hammer action.

Bottom manual must be able to be split.

No bass pedals.

Black or polished walnut finish.

Under $4000.

Ian

It was starting to sound like a Roland Atelier until you mentioned under $4,000...

Yes, and under 35 lbs as well.

Of course it would have to have all the Super Articulated voices, including the new SA Organs, plus mega voices and other Yamaha goodies.

I could live very happily with PSR-S910 action on top, with P-85 action on the bottom.

The S910 only weighs 25 lbs....a P-85, 25 lbs, even though it's weighted graded hammer, both instruments with speakers, no less.

Drop the P-85's number of keys down to weighted 76, and lose the speakers and amps in both it, and the PSR...yep, it could be done....whether it ever will or not, is another thing.

One can dream.

Ian

PS...Ateliers are very nicely designed, but way too heavy and, of course, they don't have the Yamaha sound/features that I love.

For some the answer is Yamaha D-Deck.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u4nHH1cloc&feature=related

I think the DDK7 is a T2 in steroids and some other features, the screen is totally different. I did not see S.A.2 sounds.

Options are the Pedals, stand,etc.

I could be persuaded if is not over priced.

------------------
mdorantes

I did a check and the Yamaha Stagea D-Deck is about the same price as the Tyros3. Did you know that Yamaha don't sell the psr s910 and Tyros3 in their own country? For the price of the psr s910 you can buy a Yamaha Stagea Mini in Japan. And Yamaha don't sell the Stagea models to our countries.
See a demo of the Stagea Mini at http://www.youtube.com/user/yamahacorporation#p/search/0/QW82sEW4ISs


[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 02-11-2010).]

I've looked longingly at the Stagea's, they are a great design. Hammond-Suzuki has some interesting keyboards too, also not available in the USA. I always felt a compact Hammond with arranger features would be the bomb.

OT - I'm a little disappoined that my XK-1 only has Epiano and clav alternate voices because a decent acc piano sample would make it a great stand alone keyboard.

That's true in Japan high end arrangers aren't available. I think the Psr and Tyros line have the Yamaha organs engine in a different console. I've made a 3 manual organ out of a pair of arrangers (a Psr 900 and a Korg Pa500) a MS for Vsts and a Pk5 pedal. The Korg is a very good controller and soundsource but the Yamaha is amazingly easy converted into an organ and has special features specifically designed for that purpose such as controlling the bass line of the style independently from the chord played by using the pedals.
Actually a 2 manual arranger IS an organ without pedals. The advantage of using arrangers to make an organ is that I keep upgrading it and using the best from different manufacturers.

Victor

A nice acoustic piano, rhodes, clav, and jazz guitar added to the top manual of the C1 wouldn't bother me either (as long as nothing else was touched - although I wouldn't cry if they added drawbars but no extra weight - but then they'd have to change the size of it to put them in the proper place - arrggggg, just no win).

chas

Victor, do you have pictures?

Most double keyboard set ups are not as ergonomically fluid as an integrated double manual. I would consider something up to 40 lbs (18kg) if it had its own keyboard cover, ala Farfisa combo compact. Stand separate. 49/61 keys minimum, but 61/61 or 61/76 would be preferred. I could definitely do with less sounds IF the soundset was excellent; same with styles. just let us add either thru user banks via USB. Pedals optional, drawbars required.

I'm pretty much set with the arranger I've got now. At this time there's nothing out there shaking the tree; no new, gotta have features. Other than switching for switching's sake, there's no reason to go out and buy a different arranger. A double manual arranger would wake me up.

I think that for flexibility's sake, I still think I would prefer TWO keyboards. That way, If you only needed the one, you don't HAVE to carry the two.

I also think the under 35 lbs. point is seriously underestimating what would be needed. The speakers hardly weigh anything in an S910 and P85, probably less that 5 lbs. total. To be honest, add the two together, That's MUCH closer to what would be the end result. Maybe 45 lbs. plus, at the VERY least, for a 61 and a 76 weighted. The more weight, the more stiffness and inflexibility of the case is important, and that, unless you are happy with lack of durability, is going to be a factor.

Most of us could make a functional two manual arranger with the addition of little more than a dumb remote keyboard underneath the main arranger. Thing about it all is, it HAS to be a dumb, no controllers secondary keyboard, because you HAVE to get the manuals so close together for the 'organ experience' that there is no way in hell you can get to any of the lower keyboard's controls or display..!

I wouldn't mind a nice P85 as a lower manual for my G70 some day, but only if I never have to move it!

Yamaha have an EXCELLENT feature, where an auxiliary keyboard, MIDI'ed into it, will mirror all the sounds and splits of the main keyboard without having to send any MIDI codes at all (which, when your manuals are that close together, it could never do). All this concept needs to be extended to, to enable the easy 'do it yourself' two manual arranger, is to allow the user to build a special 'Lower manual' preset on the same lines, not simply a mirror of the top manual, with at least one split and layer, and the mix and match (no more having to accept what manual the manufacturer thinks MOST of us all want) two manual arranger would be a reality...

In fact, Steve Demming... You reading this?

I agree completely...I have yet to see a home made double manual rig that is as slick as the integrated keyboards.

The location of the pitch and mod wheels would be only one of the issues I'd have, as well as the style variation buttons and registration memories being more awkward.

The manuals should be as close as the keyboards are on a Nord C1/2 or a Hammond B-3.

The registration memories/style controls could be positioned between the manuals.

Removing the amps and speakers from a P-85 and PSR-S910 would take at least 5 lbs off each instrument...total weight about 40 lbs, and I'm sure more weight reduction could be found.

If I had a dual manual instrument of decent weight and dimensions, again, about the size and weight of the Nord C1, why would I want to use only one manual, when two are now as portable as one?

A target price of under $4000 seems very reasonable as well.

Think of it...most pros use two keyboards...a weighted action 76/88 note for the bottom, and a 61 note synth action for the top....having them in one case would be pretty cool.

Ian

Cassp you have mail, I sent you a picture. I am on vacations using my phone and was hard to insert the link of the picture here.

But the reason most two keyboard systems are so difficult is that the need to use controllers and switches and see the display on the lower one puts the two WAY too far apart.

On something like the P85, with nothing sticking up above the level of the keys, you basically rest the arranger directly on it, and you are looking at little more than two inches of manual separation... Maybe not QUITE as small as a B3, but OTOH, the B3's action is also very short, much shorter than a piano's, which will change the playing position no matter HOW close they get.

I'm pretty sure we are never going to get what we want here, in any case, so our best option is to look for the best compromise. Trouble is, without the arranger manufacturer coming out with the 'remote input' idea I outlined (really, so little to add to the OS, I don't see why it can't be added if enough of us want it), or without extensive programming of the lower keyboard and some way of triggering the patch changes remotely, none of this works...

And, in the end, I'm not really sure that bouncing between a weighted 88 and a featherweight 61 isn't going to disturb our carefully practiced touch. Especially if you go back and forth a lot, it might be better to have two keyboards not QUITE so disparate in touch, IMO. Sure, you JUST want to play piano on the lower, you are good to go. But have splits, and use it for a lot more than that, and you get back to the same issues that require you to use a lighter action now.

Personally, come to think of it, my ideal two manual setup would be a waterfall 61 at the top, and my G70's 76 at the bottom. But sadly, no-one makes a waterfall arranger anyway, and the arranger HAS to be on top... so I guess it might have to be the Nord Electro 73 waterfall on the bottom. Not perfect, IMO!

What a can of worms we've opened...

I would have no problem with it...I had the same setup for many years when I played in a combo.

It would feel very unnatural playing two-handed piano on semi-weighted keys...that would be a problem for me...I could deal with 76 keys, but I would at least want them weighted, even if they weren't graded hammer...even the T3's lovely FSK, considered to be one of the very best feeling semi-weighted keyboards, stretched to more than 5 octaves, wouldn't appeal to me for two handed piano.

The next ideal arranger setup for me is what I have now...61 light action keys, small and very transportable cabinet, built in speakers...thankfully already available.

After that, it would be a 76 note weighted hammer arranger, the same, or a bit heavier than the 25 lb P-85...a lightweight CVP, no less.

I tried using the P-85 under the PSR-S910 and the awkward access to style and registration buttons, and the pitch/mod wheels, made it a no go for me.

For the very rare occasions I played a gig which required both solo piano, and arranger music, it was very easy to put the P-85 and an X-stand in with the other gear, and it made the job very enjoyable.

Remember, Cassp's #4 question was, "What would you (meaning us, as individuals) require in a 2-manual arranger?"

Not the general buying public.

That's how I understood the question.

Ian

I have been using a similar system for the past 18 months.
Twinset Tyros above + NP30 tight below. (No Bass Pedals)
The Tyros now being a full keyboard allows me to have 3 voice zones over the Tyros (the NP30 is driving the T2 Left Hand Styles & Left Voices over it's full length) Works well for me and it does look impressive...Lol.

Have a look on European sites, as they have been doing it for years, (Pretty much every arranger has somebody making a setup to convert them into organ type set-ups. (Currently the T3 is the most popular followed by the Korg PA2x)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGz_NJTKTAg

Bill

I don't want to be too disparaging, but sheesh, even the old folks in audience had that 'is it ever going to end' look on their faces. I've got a hundred bucks that says that guy lives at home with his parents. I know it's partly a culture, genre', thing, but I gotta be honest; I'd rather see Mama Mia, The English Patient, and Titanic, back-to-back than be trapped in a room during one of his sets. But I'm sure that's just me.

chas

I don't know Chas, that old lady in front seemed to be twitchin' a bit...

Seriously (you were kidding, weren't you?) I'd like to see this tune (Tico Tico, is it not?) played with the Korg M3 using that Karma thing that James, and others, are raving about.

That dual manual conversion, on the other hand, looks pretty slick to me.

You could sling one of these 'neath your Korg...I wonder if they do a PSR conversion?

Ian

My dog does it all the time when he's nodding off . And yeah, I'd like to hear it using Karma as well, although it might induce a seizure.

chas

Hi Chas
The performance is irrelevant; it was just posted to show one of the many adaptions of arrangers to dual keyboards and pedals. (This is what the post is about)
Regards

Bill

You only have to look at the average age in most of the organ videos to realize just how much longer this is going to remain relevant, even in Europe. Yes, I know there are 'enthusiast' audiences for organ music, but there are also enthusiast audiences for crumhorn and sackbut ensembles, and it doesn't make THEM any more relevant to today than that...

When that generation dies out (and that performance is doing its' part!), who's left but the players alone? Might as well take up the virginal. At least some decent composers wrote for THAT...

Who ARE relevant European keyboard players today? Muse, and the like. And they SURE don't play home organs (or arrangers!)

I know, Bill. Just having a little fun with Ian. Some of his comments and responses make me laugh and that's what helps me enjoy some otherwise boring posts (not saying that this is one of them ). In my defense, I did give a serious answer to the original post (C1 with extra voices).

chas

Here’s another one featuring the Korg PA2x http://www.deebach.com/produkte/xanadu/index.html Google translates it quite well.
Demos: http://www.deebach.com/informationen/index.html

Bill

chas