Why an arranger?

Every now and again, on one of my clinics, or at a gig, I get the question, "Why do you use an arranger?"

We all have answers to "how we use an arranger" but I haven't seen a discussion on "why?"

Certainly, I have my own reasons, but before I get into those, I'd like to hear why others use this sometimes loved, sometimes reviled, but always controversial instrument....or why they don't.

We've all discussed why we use a certain brand of arranger, but I'm interested (and I hope you are) in why we even use one at all, or at the very least, what made us get into using one?


Ian

PS...hopefully Donny, Diki, and Fran will be back, or come back, to join in.

Hmm why, back in 1997 and few years then when i came to USA we used to go to a wedding,
5-6-7 piece live band, the rate was up to 3-4000$ per wedding (yeah i know, thats how Eastern
European, Turkish and M.E. weddings are done) and it was quite alright. On top of 3-4000$ we
used to get another 5-6000$ tip per wedding. Then suddenly one or 2 guys showed up with
arranger at smaller parties asking for 400-500$ a night...and people that were about to have a
wedding started being interested in the Arranger people and 1 or 2 got them to play. We lost
few weddings and started scratching our heads till ... we heard that one of our own band member
played a wedding without us, on an arranger...that was it...done. Now, in NYC itself there is over
200 Arranger players for the same type of music, each being its own band. You can probably get
a gig once in 2 years...thats why i stopped pla¥ing live, not worth it...and the newest thing is,
half of the Arranger players now are DJs ONLY and now DJs are taking over everything.

Why do I use an arranger keyboard. For me that is not a difficult question.
I have a T3 and a KN7000 and both of these make me feel like a real keyboard player. I cannot read music, I only play with three fingered chords and I am not very nimble with the right hand but what my keyboard gives back to me is astounding.
I have played various other keyboards over the years but nothing compares to the new arranger style keyboards.
A whole orchestra in my spare room. What more could anyone ask.

Good topic, Ian.

I switched to using an arranger when I switched trios and exchanged my drummer for a guitar player. We started with using a drum machine and then moved to using SMFs. And arranger would permit me to play the SMFs directly and have a drummer, with styles, available if/when I needed him.

I was never very good at using styles until recently when I decided to go solo. I'm finding that arranger styles permit me to play more and decide exactly how I want to craft a song. Even though I still use a majority of SMFs, I hope to get to a 50-50 split next year and maybe tip the scales in the other direction the year after.

Cheaper than an organ. But you can turn a keyboard into an organ, right? I mean, add a midi keyboard (controller?)and pedals? So there's still hope after all. Only problem is, I'm probably too technically challenged (dumb) to set it up.

Taike



------------------
Bo pen nyang.

I use a arranger as a substitute to a band. As I play ethnic music, the local restaurants, social clubs & private parties simply can not afford to pay a 4-5+ piece band. There is more money in weddings but there are less frequent due to DJ's. Also with an arranger, all of the band members show up for pratice, no one is drunk and I don't have to share any of the take home pay with my arranger.

just my 2 cents.

Why not? It's a fantastic, extremely versatile, wonderful sounding instrument. And, I no longer have to share the proceeds with four other guys.

Cheers,

Gary

Hi Taike,

There are some folks on YPKO who have added another keyboard (and pedals) beneath the arranger, and seemed very pleased with the result.

The Yamaha NP-30 was deemed a good lower manual, as it has midi, and the action is light, but still velocity sensitive.

My issue would be the keyboards would not be close enough, and some of the arranger buttons would be not as convenient to access.

Some have cleverly used old organ cabinets to house the keyboards...and they looked pretty darn good.

Ian

It's very flexible.
Wonderful to use as One Man Mand, and when do some adjustments, edit and mute
some parts, then it's great when play as Duo or Trio as well.
Bought my first arranger last half of the 80'ies just for fun, never regret I
did.

Cheers
GJ

Yes, Gary...but what triggered your idea to use one professionally? Did you see/hear someone else use one, for instance?

I originally started playing "arranger" keyboards, in the early 80's (1981)..

I purchased a then Top of the line Casio CT405, I believe..

I immediately seen advantages of using such a keyboard...but at that time,
there were too many limitations,
such as low polyphony, limited variation of sounds and drum patterns..

I continued to buy "arrangers" as they improved..

I actually started my Musical instrument store at this time (1982)...
Now I realize it was started for my self satisfaction..then a business..
Good thing..cause I didn't make much money...

The early years I tried the Roland E-20 and also the Yamaha Porta Sounds..
They were cool for the times, but not enough for me to stop using my multi keyboard set ups,
and drum machines.


Basically I wanted more than a single 61 key "arranger"..

In the mid 80's, I was using a pair of Roland Juno2's ,
a Roland SH101 for bass and a Roland TR707 drum machine..
I was content with this setup..

I changed things up as time went on..
Yamaha DX7 replaced a Juno2 and Roland JX8P replaced the other Juno2..

1985 Roland came out with the JX10..and it soon became my all time favorite (then)..

I was able to split the board , play left hand bass..
and still used the TR707 drum machine..(replaced by the Yamaha 120..in 1987).

I used this set up for a few years..adding some Yamaha modules...

When the Roland D70 came out (1990) I switched from the JX10...

Now I had 31 polyphony and used the Yamaha drum machine..
I was a happy camper...a single keyboard (76 keys), and a drum machine..

Shortly after a year or two later I switched to a Roland JV1000...
This board had everything for me..I had been into sequencing since the 80's.
.and the JV1000 gave me the tools to use sequences on stage..

In 1993-1994, I added the Roland E66 "arranger" keyboard..
in combination with the JV1000...This was my first winning combination using arrangers.

.I had my "arranger" goodies / and real time drum machine..
The E66 also allowed me to play seq's, as my JV1000 did..

The gigs went very smoothly with this combination..

The JV1000 gave way to the Roland XP80, and the E66 gave way to the RA800 eventually.

Around this same time Roland came out with the G-800...WOW..that did it for me...
Since that day I became an "arranger" only preference player..

A few years later, I moved up to a G1000, 9 years later the G70....
In each case the keyboard got better..They all had the 76 key and feel I wanted..
Arrangers give me the flexibility to do anything I could do with the multi keyboard setups..

Interchanging between left hand bass/piano/ and color sounds with a great drum pattern play..
.or a full "arranger" mode..
Sequence play available at all times..and lyric read too...

What isn't there to like..or prefer over the "workstations"?

Arranger keyboards has been a no brain-er for me since 1994..

I also enjoy the new offerings as the Prelude ..function wise (MP3,wave, SMF, aiff..player).

I can't wait till Roland or other brands incorporate the new features in a great feel ,
76 key..Top of the line, keyboards..


I should add..I have owned and liked a lot other arrangers..
from Casio, Yamaha, Ketron,Siel and Roland..
The Casio MZ2000 and Ketron X1..were 2 of the best "other" brands boards I have owned..


Sorry for being long winded.....but you know how it is!!!


You guys did miss me...right?..

Of course we missed you, Fran...good to see you back.

I had a JX-10...what a lovely synth that was...everything about it was top class, especially the hardware....had a thing called "Chase Play"...sort of a really cool delay....sumptuous sounds galore, especially the strings and brass and electric pianos.

I believe the Roland E-series woke everybody else up...they were the first arrangers that didn't talk down to you.

Sure had everyone scrambling to catch up.

I got into auto accompaniment with the Yamaha Electone, and the then new PS-series (1980)...based on Electone technology...limited in poly....you basically had to use them with another keyboard.

Things have sure come a long way since the early days.

Ian,

At one point I had a 5-piece country band, we played a fair number of jobs, mostly VFWs and American Legions, the money was lousy and I had to put up with drunks and cigarette smoke. (Some of the drunks were in the band.)

Switched to a drum machine and 12-string Yamaha Guitar, which eliminated the drummer and allowed me to go solo playing honky-tonk bars. When I got my hands on my first arranger keyboard, the guitar went into the case and pretty much stayed there. I never looked back.

HI FRAN,

Gary

Yep, that's when it's tough...when the drunks are in the band...I know, I was one of them drunks...then I had to deal with them myself later on after I quit drinking.

How did you find out about arrangers...what was the first one you saw? First one you used?

First ones I ever saw were Yamaha PS-3(tiny keys) and PS-30, bought a PS-55 (PCM drums!) and then later on a PS-6100, which I ended up using for quite some time...it had that folding keyboard lid, the inside of which, was actually the panel.

Also had a PSR-70 that let you program styles...three I think? And another mini-key little monster called the MK-100

Think of it? Back then...64 styles...tippy-tappy ones at that...today, we can access hundreds, that sound like an orchestras, swing bands, rock groups...and re-program like a mad scientist!




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-14-2009).]

I started out with a B3 and a drummer in the 60's. The drummer kept getting drunk or not showing up, so I got a Kreuger bass, an Echoplex, and Rythm Ace. That was fine for awhile, but a pain to move around. I left my rig at a restaurant I played six nights at. In the early eighties, I got a Roland E-70 ? and a D50. This was more like it, and the start of my arranger path. The reasons are the same as above. I didn't look back either. I,also, had a Yamaha with a lid on it,(PSR6000?) similar to the KN7000 I have. It was no comparison to todays boards, but good for it's day.

Probably this one, Bernie the PSR-6300(looked like the PS-6100, too)...I had one after my PSR-70...touch sensitive keys! Wow!

I think my first arranger was an RA-90 module. At the time, I was primarily sequencing what little non-live band stuff I was doing, and felt like adding a Sound Canvas module to my arsenal. I was also doing a fair bit of drum machine programming (HR-16's, Yamaha RX series, that sort of thing) and was always frustrated by how tough and time consuming programming up decent drums were, or how difficult drum machines made running them on the fly.

Then I saw a friend using a Roland arranger (the one with the short keyboard, I forget the model#) and, while I wasn't that big into the arranger side of things, thought 'Hmmm... there's a drum machine with really USEFUL patterns (you ever listen to the ROM patterns in a drum machine from that era? ) that does two patterns and two fills, and I can run it on the fly with a footswitch! Score!'.

So I got me an RA-90, MIDI-ed it to my monster rig (WAY too many keyboards back then!) and had Sound Canvas sounds for playing live band, but also a preset drum machine that was interactive (nothing else much was, back then), and a happy camper I was...

Well, a bit later, started to use a few arranger things (mostly to rough out sequence work and songwriter demos) and got to like the speed of making roughs, liked the Roland sound, and saw a G800. LOVED the action (same one still in the G1000 and G70) and thought it was getting to close to the point that I could drop all the old Ensoniq samplers and ROMplers and a ton of that older gear, and just use the one keyboard for gigging. Still playing primarily full band, but also a fair amount of duo and the odd solo gig, too. The one piece of gear did it all. Live band (fairly decent for the time), duo sequenced work, some live drum machine and LH bass, but still little full arranger... It didn't last all that long, as I got a great deal on a G1000 when it came out (almost a straight swap) and it had the Zip drive. No waiting, no loading, everything ready to go, and some seriously better Super Canvas sounds (great piano and sax). Two upper sounds for layering or switching between, two lower, and glitchless patch changes (that one is absolutely essential for me). All a growing boy needs for live Everything from full band to a solo... one keyboard!

Used that sucker for about ten years (still had Kurzweils and Tritons, you name it for studio, but I tried doing a live band with a K2500, and it was a PITA to run live unless you had everything set up in advance), then the G70 rumors started. FantomX piano (my favorite!), Roland VK-organ (finally! Drawbars and a real Leslie sim ), TD-series multi-velocity drummer approved drums, and a 128 voice engine that was incredibly snappier than the Sound Canvas one. How could I resist..? Probably a good job I got to play it and fall in love with the sounds before I noticed the Chord Sequencer was missing

Since then, no complaints... OK, well of course there are complaints But nothing that so far makes me want to migrate.

Why an arranger...? Well, for me personally, even for playing in a live band (the majority of my work this year, and still the majority over my career) I find arrangers, and particularly the G70, the easiest to setup and run on the fly. I do a LOT of pickup work, and never know what sounds, splits, layers and all that stuff I am going to need until the bandleader calls the title and the key (if I'm lucky!), so having something that is a snap to configure on the fly is essential. WS's simply are NOT setup that way. Incredible depth of programming, but total PITA's to do anything quickly.

Now add to that live band ease something that does everything from sequences with markers, a drum machine with FOUR patterns and six fills that I can totally run hands free (with an FC-7 pedal), and full arranger, and once again I've got something that I can take to ANY gig, not have a clue what they'll need of me until I get there, and be confident that the G70 will cover it all, and have guys with TOTL WS's going 'What the hell is THAT?! It sounds AMAZING!'

What more could a boy need? [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img]

A PSR-910 would be a nice addition...he he!

Good to see you back posting, my friend.

Hi Ian ,
great topic.

I was a lousy piano piano player, at least with an arranger keyboard, the tunes I play are sort of recognizable . haahaa

My first arranger keyboard was a Yammie also. Can't remember the model, (mid 80's?)
It read some sort of a card with sheet music printed on it.
My next one was the KN800 ( approx 1988?) From memory, I think I actually managed to midi it to my Yamaha Disklavier piano.

It was great when Roland & Korg eventually brought out arranger modules. Hubby was happy not to have keyboards taking over our living room.
They were moved to a spare room, the module stayed with the piano.
Really miss having arranger modules, even though my beautiful piano's are long gone.

best wishes
Rikki

You probably had the Yamaha PC-100(small keys) or PC-1000(regular keys)...we sold a lot of them...they were very popular, and actually helped keyboard education.




There was also a Yamaha portable that printed music...sort of like the roll in a cash register...weird, but, actually, very handy. it was called the Yamaha MP-1.



Here is the score writer in the above...simple but very effective...and inexpensive.


It either printed immediately all played notes, or printed the recorded contents of an internal sequencer...cool.

I remember seeing and playing the Technics KN-800 (I'm pretty sure that's the model)...I also remember thinking how advanced it was at the time...I believe it had features like ON BASS chording (you could play slash chords like F/G, or C/E ) and PCM sounds...I don't think Roland or Yamaha had those features, at the least the former one) and also the styles were simple, but were they ever well programmed.

You had a Disklavier? Awesome...remember having to adjust for the 500ms delay?

There was a control on the piano, just for that purpose.

I was at the showcase for the very first one (a grand)...it had a little wagon (looked like a heater) that held the electronics.

A lot of recording studios still use them.

Do you play gigs?



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-14-2009).]

For me the journey to an arranger began in 1971. I was recently married attending Florida State, working in a music store and playing in a 4 piece band. We had a standing job on Thursday nights. We went to play one night only to find out we'd been fired. Instead of the band, they had a guy on Cordovox with a drum machine. He had good vocals and his setlist was really good. The other guys in the band got all pissed off and left but I stayed. I stayed for 3 sets. I said to myself, I can do that. The next day I talked the owner of the music store into selling me a Lowry organ at cost. I also bought a drum machine and the rest as they say is history.

In the years that followed, I had some great OMB runs, I also toured with a couple of name acts, ect but I always kept the OMB in the back of my mind. In 1996 at a worship leaders conference, I saw a Roland G800. I played it and thought I'd died and gone to heaven. I still feel that way today every time I do a show with my arranger. I don't have a band anymore, who needs one? I currently play a Tyros 1 but I also love some of the other models out there. Long live Arrangers!

Joe

------------------
Songman55
Joe Ayala

Ian,

The first arranger I bought was an off the wall brand, which I cannot remember at the moment, it sounded OK, had 30 styles. I used it for a couple years, then switched to a PSR-500, followed by a G-800, then back to Yamaha with a PSR-5700, PSR-740, PSR-2000, and finally the PSR-3000. Somewhere in there I had a Korg for a while, but I never liked the sounds and quickly sold it. The PSR-5700 and the G-800 both had great piano sounds, and if I recall, they weighed about same, too--both were pretty heavy. For me, the transition from a guitar and drum machine to an arranger keyboard was a dream come true. Ironically, there is a guy around this neck of the woods who uses the same Yamaha 12-string guitar, Roland drum machine and Crate amp that I used many years ago. And, he's working pretty steady in the bars, but unfortunately, the pay scale is still the same today as it was back when I was playing the bars--$100 for four hours. I'll stick with the old folks circuit. It pays a lot better.

Cheers,

Gary

Ian...
Very interesting topic and replies.
I was a drummer in a variety of bands until 1980 when local venues from the Holiday Inns and Ramadas to the Animal Circuits started using keyboard players using sequencers or drum machines.

My 5 pc scaled down to me and a girl singer. I used a Technics KN 700... later adding a Roland E-20 to the mix. (Looking back...I am almost embarrassed to admit that.)

From there, I took a major leap to a Yammie PSR 5700. I felt the piano was a bit week and added a Korg something-or-other to the mix. Together with these two KBs, cases and Peavey speakers, stands and amp...it took all the strength of my youth to set up for a gig.

When Yamaha introduced the 2K I jumped on it and loved it. The floppy drive was a bit of a problem...but that all disappeared with the introduction of the 3K....which I use to this very day.

Friends in the biz use a variety of KBs by Roland, Korg and Ketron....and they all sound good. But my Yammie 3K works for me.

Eddie

This migtht be a little off ... but my first Arranger (believe it or not) was a Technics sx KN***. I know it was releaed sometime in mid 80 and it was 49 keys -Silver/Gold color. The panel buttons were right at your finger-tip (above the keys) and these were silver. Speaker grills were actually cut into finish.

This keyboard was used in church and eventually replace our group (tired of bass player not showing up, drumer counting too fast/slow, so this was the way to go). Remember - we were just about 14 years then, but that was the start for me.

ANYONE HAVE A PICTURE OF THIS AND THE ACTUAL MODEL NUMBER THEY COULD POST/LINK HERE, PLEASE.

It didn't have that many styles and vocies so there was no great panel display ... you wanted a march style, you pressed the MARCH button. Wanted a string sound, you pressed STRING ... simple. Looking for a pic if anyone comes accross this. Memories!!

AJ

....lousy typist, too . Just kidding with you, Rikki. You NEVER, EVER, get any flak from anyone (a tribute to your personality) so I thought it was time you paid your dues .

chas

Ahhhh, but Chas...perchance Rikki was a lousy piano piano player, as opposed to a much better arranger piano player?

There be a difference, methinks (as I chivalrously, and unabashedly, come to the lady's defence).

I cam from playing organs in the early 80's

Then in the 90's i switched to keyboards for the auto accompaniment feats.. Later on other feautures like midi files strated taking my attention..

I have allways prefered Arrangers heavy on sound creation as that allowed to have the best of both worlds..

Only in recent years i picked up a more piano like playing style... allways sticked with the static chords on the left side...


If i had to do it all over again, i'd start out with piano instead of Organ... gives a much better base, and maybe i would have ended up in the synth market

Ahhh Ian, we can always rely on you to find a positive in anything . Well, for the record, I don't like your spelling of the word 'defence'. Although technically correct, it is usually a British variant and since you're not British, I find it insulting to the senses (or is that 'senCes').



chas

(why do old men seem to bring out the silliness in each other ?)

It's those bloody Canadian schools Chas...when we had an "English" teacher...they were "English teachers"...

Luckily, my Cape Bretonese comes to my defenCe....does that make me multi-linguistic, or merely linguistically polyphonic...does this make any senCe?

On arrangers, my neighbour owns a keyboard he hates so much, he doesn't want to sell it because he doesn't want to meet the person who would buy such a thing.


MAKING SENSE
Life makes sense,
and who could doubt it,
if we have
no doubt about it.

On being Canadian, we have to put up with the metric system, even in music...for instance, the song, "Five Foot Two" becomes,

“She’s a centimeter shorter than a meter and a quarter...

Has anybody seen my gal?"

See...it's not all free health care and unlimited complimentary ice. We suffer...really....and I'm not just being defenCive.

You, know the "C" does make senCe, it being the first letter in Canada...

I am a CanadIan, and a MusicIan.

Ian

We old guys can sure be cilly.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-15-2009).]

Synthzone (or is it Cynthzone), the absolute best, most effective, most efficient, place in the world for getting a good topic off track .

chas

Ahhh well now, it is the American versions of English that are the variance

The English version is ALWAYS correct!! And not just technically , it just is.

Dennis

Chas, life is way too short to stay on topic...now [whispering], it's about now that Diki should jump in with his rant about "no chord Cequencers!"

And...by the way, where is Donny?

Diki is back...did the boy from New Jersey get a longer Centence?

Hi Ian,
I think it may have been the 1000.
The card system looks familiar.

The KN800 was amazing. I also had it midied to my Atari. All the style tracks recorded across ( except for drums) & could be displayed in Notator's score display. Unfortunately drums didn't, they just recorded across as a program change.
Pretty exciting stuff 20 years ago.

Yes I had a Disklavier. Mine was only an upright & it was a fairly early one. It was all in one, though.
I already had a Yamaha Baby Grand, which hubby had bought , mainly as a beautiful piece of furniture for the living room. haahaa
I'd always wanted a pianola, the Disklavier was the ultimate pianola. There was an amazing range of piano disks available. I used to listen to it for hours.
Then there was also the plus side of the midi & recording functions. Realized I was not musical enough to play solo piano, but with an arranger for backing, I could play songs that would have taken me weeks if not months to learn as solo piano pieces..

Unfortunately, we downsized houses when the kids left, no space for the piano's.

I've got a Clavinova nowadays ( no arranger functions) , tucked away in a corner. I keep it mainly for my old collection of Disk Orchestra disks. I used to also run a Dom 30 with the Disklavier.
Bringing back fond memories.

No, I have never gigged, music's just been a hobby of mine for many years.

best wishes
Rikki

Rikki ... are you referring to the technics KN1000 ? .. if so, that's not it ... I still have the KN1000 ... 61 keys, floppy disk drive ...
t.

I first saw a guy in Columbus, MO doing a single with a huge Lowry organ in 1975. I went home and bought a similar one a Symphonic something or other. It must have weighed a ton. I later got a Contempo 80 Lowrey and I remember thinking it was the last thing I'd ever have to buy because it sounded so good.
Then I switch to Yamaha organs in about 1980. I had a full size Chevy Van and could barely get all my stuff in it, including Leslies, Amps, speakers, etc.
The first arranger I saw was a Yamaha PSR 50 or 60. I got one, and a DX7, and a drum machine and a piano module and midied them all together. This cut about 500 pounds from my rig.
Then came PSR 70, 6100, 6300, 510, 620, 640, 740, 8000, 9000, 2000, 2100, Tyros, T2, S900, sprinkled in with Technics KN800, 1000, 2000, 3000 and 5000. Later came Rowland G800, Solton X1, Ketron SD1, SD5, Midjay, Roland G70, E50, E80 and Audya.
Someone stop me before I get out of control.
DonM

Hey, Don...ya gotta spend that loot on something(besides golf).

I special ordered a custom Yamaha C-605 (I was teaching for Yamaha then, and had a tiny bit of drag)...it was a portabilized version...still weighed about as much, but disassembled so that it took up less space in my big old Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser station wagon.

Here's what the keyboard looked like.



The lid actually became the stand/support...I don't think there were many of these ever imported into Canada.

I ended up selling it to a student...don't know where it is now, but you can bet it's probably still working...they were made pretty tough.

Strange when we think back at the stuff we cobbled together, and now, we can get it all and much more in one mid-line (or less) arranger.

Not to mention the money we save...to spend on more things.

I'm just as out of control as you.

Oops too late.
Rumor has it that you still have about half of that stuff in your garage, at Hanks, Semi-live's and Ernest's. Probably just rumor, huh?
Eddie

Ian, speaking of Olds cruisers..I purchased a 1969 Vista Cruiser that was used in the Miss America pageant in Atlantic City NJ.

There was a certain attraction that I couldn't resist buying it..Being 26 at the time...

The Vista Cruiser from the Pageant was maroon with wood-grain sides..I will look for the actual pics..I still have them ..but here is a Internet pic of the Vista Cruiser..



[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 11-15-2009).]

The Vista Cruiser had the little glass windshield in the roof....cool....neat car.

My Olds was a '74 wagon based on the big Ninety-Eight....B-I-G car...455 V8, and wood grain sides, and a powered clam-shell tailgate/window....it was the only wagon big enough to carry the organ and the two Yamaha powered speakers(the ones with the white speaker cones).

Couldn't possibly own one today as it drank gas at such an abominable rate...in fact, it used so much fuel, the guy who owned the local filling station actually broke down and cried like a baby when I sold it.

Ian

Ian, I had the Buick (Roadmaster)version (1974)..same specs.. I replaced that one with a 1978 Buick LeSabre wagon (One of the best vehicles I have owned)...Plenty of room..14-15 MPG...

Well not exactly. Diki hasn't been reinstated yet. He just got lucky with an IP that he was assigned that happened to bypass the IP block I had suspended. He will be back ... but just not yet.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 11-16-2009).]

Hi Ian,
put it this way, I couldn't have sounded any worse. haahaa.
(Nice to see chivalry hasn't died)

Chas, may be trying to shake that pedestal he's had me on, just to see if my halo slips. haahaa

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Tony,
the 1000 I was reffering to was one of the yamaha keyboards Ian mentioned above.

Never owned the KN1000. Had the KN800, KN2, KN3,KN5,KN7. Even owned the only Synth & arranger module they produced (model names escape me. I think Fran & I were the only 2 that bought the Technics synth haahaa.
Wish I'd kept one of my Kn's.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nigel:
Well not exactly. Diki hasn't been reinstated yet. He just got lucky with an IP that he was assigned that happened to bypass the IP block I had suspended. He will be back ... but just not yet.[QUOTE]

Hmmm, looks like things happens when it's nightime in this area and Mr.Me are sleeping
deep in my bed......

Did I miss a big dogfight or something or is it Nigel that runs the moderatorship in a harder way?

Cheers
GJ

Btw,
IP block is easy to sneak through for those who can and want to, but I guess it's not worth make
it worse than it already is.....

Diki got "suspended"? Why?

If he's not here any more, then neither am I.

Sad to see another forum ruined by stupid over-"moderation".

One thing you can't accuse SZ moderator Nigel for is "overmoderating".
He does a great job, and through the all the years I've been member here
he sure have been both very moderate in moderating, as well as a good
and very fair Forum owner.

GJ

[This message has been edited by Gunnar Jonny (edited 11-16-2009).]

My long-time partner/B-3 player slowly got slower due to arthritis. I started off playing guitar's (double-necks, electric sitars, nylon strings, etc.), mandolin, bass and tenor banjo.

As he got slower, I took over most lead work and worked in a set of vibes; then a Whirlitzer piano. When he had to quit, I moved over to B-3 (really rough for awhile), about 1973.

Subsequently, I got lots of jobs as a single on guitar. Lots of people danced at these jobs, so I used a 147RV Leslie and a simple Univox drum machine. I played a 335 through the Leslie. Then, I found my first Auto Orchestra. It was made by a predicessor of Solton/Ketron, I think. It was a module, which supplied drums, drum breaks and backing, all controlled by a set of conventional 13 pedals. You used the heel of your right foot (volume pedal foot) to trigger minors, 7ths, etc. You played the root bass note with your right foot. Still played the 335 thru the 147RV.

At the same time, I got a coctail hour job at a hotel, and they bought a Yamaha Electone organ for me to use. It had auto features, which came in handy when dancers showed up.

About 1993, A man named Petosa showed up in Lexington, visiting a well-known accordian player-Tony Lovello (a member of the original Three sons) , who was the general manager of the hotel I worked. He played an accordian with serious auto features from Petosa's store in Seattle. Joe Petosa had a Solton keyboard on his car and showed it to me. In 1994, I bought my first MS-60. I use arrangers sparingly. I use other players when I can (guitar, sax, trumpet, vocals), and play 1/2 my jobs as a single on a piano or guitar.

The real fun is my trio-grandson on drums and son on bass, with me on piano, guitar and synth. We do a two night a month duo on B-3 and drums.

Those jobs are on hold, due to a slow recovery of a serious injury to my left hand that had slowed me up a bit.Still able to make all my arranger jobs, thankfully, and have converted some of the others to arranger work.

I still have a love-hate relationship with arrangers, but they have a real place on my bandstands in certain instances.


Now, If I just took the time to work in the Midjay I got from Don. Or the SD-5 I got from Zuki. Or the GW-7 (I know, it's already replaced) I got from George...or....


Russ

I believe that at some level, you really don't WANT to work in three more arrangers. It's one thing to NEED to use them and quite another to WANT to use them on certain gigs. The problem with working mixed (diverse) venues is that the 'CONTROL' you have over the music in the non-arranger gigs (piano/organ/drums/guitar/vibes/vocals) makes it difficult to relinquish that control (as you must) for arranger-based gigs.

Now notice, I said control over the music, not the gig. For a musician, that's huge; for an entertainer, not so much (NOT a putdown of entertainers, just trying to make a point). No matter how you slice and dice it, that arranger is not going to play the same bass line that you would have if you were playing it live. On the other side of the coin, no arranger player in the world wants to deal with trying to get back in sync with a vocalist who has missed a beat or come in too quickly. BUT if you're playing it live, no problem. And let's not even get into the joys of playing with other good musicians, even at the cost of a diminished paycheck.

Although some people here will honestly and legitimately state that they prefer to work an arranger-based gig (drunk drummer, bigger paycheck, etc.) I think most people would prefer to play 'live' if music was the only consideration. I also believe that for most audiences, it is more exciting and entertaining to watch a good, well-rehearsed band than an equally good arranger-based OMB. JMO.

chas

So, Chas, my friend...why do you use an arranger?

Assuming that you do use one...occasionally.

The little darlings must fascinate you, even a little...otherwise, you wouldn't bother with an arranger forum?

I love the sheer ingenious gimmickry involved (I love gadgets...probably why I like cars) as well as the fun factor...for me, the making money part of it, just happened to come along whilst I was having fun.

To me the arranger allowed me to pretend, and opened up a whole area of playing and using my imagination.

I mean, you're using the Nord C1 to pretend you're actually playing (and, most importantly, hearing) a Hammond.

The arranger is just a step up from there (or a step down, maybe).

Of course the answer is embedded in your own post. 1. I'm a gadget freak and 2. They ARE fun. So far, I've had the G800, G1000, Korg I5M, Tyros 2, and Korg PA1x pro (my favorite). Try to console yourself Ian, but the PA1x probably has 500 hours on it while the T2 has about 15 (and most of that was updating the software and installing the HD). Strictly a case of style preference. The T2 is a fine machine with several great solo voices and a very intuitive OS (just needs a touch screen ).

I use the PA1x mostly as a drum machine, great drums and easier to use than a real drum machine. I also find some of the voices more 'playable' than the Yammy (that smokey sax, for instance).

I don't use then on gigs because they don't lend themselves to the type of music I do on gigs. Simple as that. Also, I like to just sit down and play, without worrying about things like 'registrations' and 'what's under that OTS button'. Although I like gadgets, I hate having to commit a lot of stuff to memory. It's hard enough trying to remember the chords (try playing the changes to Mysterioso or 'round midnight while fooling around with registrations and stuff).

So, do I like arrangers? Sure, they're fun. Do I feel the need to get a new one? Not in the least. Rather spend my money on upgrading something like VP550 to VP770. At the moment, I'm spending a lot of time trying to get my head around the Fantom G7, as in using it as something more than a simple synth. I belong to the Roland Clan forum but don't post much. It's considerably more technical than this forum (that's it's focus) and everybody there is smarter and more knowledgeable about the instrument than me.

Don't know if I answered your question but typing a lot keeps my fingers nice and limber .

chas

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 11-16-2009).]

I don't disagree with anything you said there ...
I just don't understand why people would prefer to watch a DJ ... But OF COURSE I do ... (engage whiney voice) "BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE THE RECORD !!!" ...

t.

I got to meet another arranger player today.
The music store called and asked if they could give him my number because he needed help making a KN6500 talk to a TC Helicon vocal harmonizer.
Anyway, I went to his house to try and help.
It wasn't a major problem, just a matter of a couple of settings in the Technics.
We had a nice visit and I invited him to check in on the forum when he can. The KN6500 has some really good sounds, good styles, excellent operating system and is well laid-out.
Nice adjustable screen too.
He is retired from the military and moved here after Katrina hit New Orleans. I think he will make a valuable addition to our "family". I'm sending him the links now.
DonM

I just don't understand why people would prefer to watch a DJ ... But OF COURSE I do ... (engage whiney voice) "BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE THE RECORD !!!" ...

t. [/B][/QUOTE]

No one is there to "watch" a DJ. They are there to dance to his music. Likewise, when we play for dancing, nobody is there to watch us, they are there to dance to our music.

Joe



------------------
Songman55
Joe Ayala

You answered my question, just fine, Chas. You can also type a lot better (faster) than I....I have to pause ever so often, and wipe up the drool.

Whilst I do enjoy playing with my buddies, most, if not all the gigs with them , are jam sessions....which is fine, as I always seem to pick up a few new licks, and, it's fun, but not fine, if I want to pay for my oil, and food..

The arranger lets me play when no one else is available...it will rehearse anytime I want, for as long as I want, and do the tunes that I want.

It will play at the tempo I want, and will also be at the volume I choose.

I know, I, I, I, I....only thinkin' of me...well, sometimes that's a good thing, if I want to be playing a lot.

I can also play in any style I want...country, jazz(y), pop, R&B...and I can practice my piano, and organ chops by making an SMF and playing over it...as long as I'm not doing bass-lines, the 5 octaves are fine...if not, I'll midi the S910 to my piano.

Getting away from playing with others wasn't entirely my idea...I live in a small town, and there's not a big pool to draw from, especially for players who want to play in the same, or even some of, the genres I like.

Like I said on another thread, the arranger is my multi-purpose tool, my Swiss army knife...it can entertain me for an evening, as well as entertain an audience for some remuneration.

You are fortunate to find people to play with, and to gig on a schedule that is comfortable with yours.

What I am surprised about, is that you don't have a B-3 at home...unless you and your buds rarely play/jam or practice there, although I must say, in your defenCe, the Nord C1 sounds pretty well as close to a Hammond as anything I've ever played...even the action is a real joy to play.

I tried one through a Traynor K4...pretty darn good Leslie sim...the K4's stereo really brings out the realism...and, it is LOUD....you can really get it to scream on the top notes, like a B-3.

There I go, digressing again...

If you didn't know then you haven't been around here much when Diki and Dnj's childish bickering hijacked numerous threads. 99% of people here are only too aware of what went down and why I gave us all a break from their antics.

And that is not to say that they are both not here ANYMORE. They are just taking a short hiatus from the forum and will be back.

Make sure you are fully aware of the facts before you start accusing me of "stupid" over moderation. Don't go off half cocked without knowing what went on. Many of the problem postings were removed at the time they became a problem.

In the 11 years I have been moderating this forum in this format I have been accused of under moderating a number of times by people that would prefer I was more hardnosed. This is the first time I have been accused of overmoderating. What on earth would make you jump to that conclusion? I always bend over backwards to let you all draw your own lines. It is only in the rare cases that people are incapable of doing that that I need to step in. And even then it is almost always a temporary suspension just to allow cooling off. But of course you already knew it was only temporary as I already said that in the posting you were referring to.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 11-17-2009).]

Try the KeyB http://www.keyborgan.com/product_keyb_duo_eng.html

Bill

[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 11-17-2009).]

Bill, I don't know if this organ is even available in the states. In any case, as much as I like the drawbars, given the weight and price, the Nord C1 would still be my hands-down choice for gigging. For a home instrument, I would probably only consider a real B3.

Ian, I sold my last Hammond when we moved to Hawaii (and bought another 'chopped' one while there). As I've said in previous posts, when I sell the house I currently have on the market, I will purchase the best vintage B3 I can find/afford to put in my rec room. I will also be replacing my Yamaha upright with the best 5-6ft. Grand that I can afford. The small amount of 'jamming' we do, we usually do at the drummers house (one reason I want a DM10 kit for my studio). The ability to carry the C1 under one arm (I'm 6'4", 200lbs) makes moving it a non-hassle. I would still use the C1 to jam with at home, even if I had the B3 (my wife would probably confine the jamming to my studio - she has spent a lifetime stopping the migration of my music 'stuff' to the rest of the house ).

I've gotten quite comfortable with the Nord C1 and never give a thought to using anything else (XK3c, Diversi, KeyB duo, BX3, etc.) for gigging (or even pleasure playing or recording). I'm really a happy camper.

chas

Bill...the KeyB sounds and looks terrific...the distortion is warm and convincing, as is the rotary sim, but, I don't think we'll see one in the local music stores here in Canada....but maybe it will happen...certainly worth a look/listen if they do make them available here.

Chas...thanks again for the explanation.

I figured you would be the one person I know that would want a real B.

The Nord really impressed me, as you might have garnered by my posts, and at 33 lbs, the convenience of having two manuals is pretty much the best out there. The Hammond XK "System" is too expensive, and too fiddly for gigging...the C1, being all-in-one, is a better design.

The C1's rotary sim through the stereo K4 almost sounded like a Leslie "moving" air...the sound seemed to "scatter" around the room...easily the equal of the pricier XK3c system, and far better than Roland/Korg/Yamaha simulators.

I might get the cabinet painted black...really...wouldn't be too difficult...although, the red is a "classy" red, and looks much better in person than in pictures....I think I could get used to it...I got used to the "silver" colored arrangers, which I disliked a lot when I first saw them.

If I was band gigging I'd get a C1, and the C1 would also be better for recording, as mic'ing a Leslie is an art in itself, and on stage, it is also a compromise at best.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-17-2009).]

This is a great subject and I think we are all reading bits of our life story in the replies so far.
I've always been fascinated by orchestras, big bands. An arranger puts me in the driving seat, I am a musician in the orchestra as well as conductor and no matter what I play the "band" follows me.
I am now a big fan of arrangers but we all have do a good job with these great machines.
Lads,keep up the good work.

Frank

[This message has been edited by Mockie (edited 11-17-2009).]

Exactly, Mockie...sideman, conductor, sax player, piano player, guitarist..we can pretend to be them all....and the band always plays what we want!

It's hard to be lonely when you play an arranger keyboard.

Cool thread, Ian.

I'm gonna sort of date myself with this answer. I bought my 3000 because of nostalgia. Back in the 80's (High School) I had a white Yamaha arranger (mono, only had one speaker), and later upgraded to a silver beast that was in stereo. Sold it when I was in college, and never touched, heard or saw an arranger from then until 2007(?) when I bought my 3000. I bought it because I remembered how much fun I had in High School with those old-timers, and I had a few bucks and a lot of time to kill (I still have the time - not the bucks, however). So my answer is "Because I had one when I was a kid!".

Take care,
Dan

P.S. I still have a fully functional PCS 500 and 50 or so play-cards for it. The keys are small, but it fits nicely on your lap.

I immediately noticed a more civil tone in the forum with the suspension. I applaud you.

Ian ... I have to disagree ...even being all those things, it is STILL only ME !!! ... and I still prefer it when I have at least one other person to work with ...

t.

Tony, I'm sure it's still possible to be lonely playing an arranger, but I do prefer the being alone to having band mates I could not rely on.

When I'm not doing instrumentals, I like to work with a singer, as I'm better at background vocals, for the most part, although there are tunes that seem to suit my voice....a singer gives the audience another thing to watch....some arranger players add a percussionist.

Guitar players are a little tougher...it's hard to find one who likes to play at volumes other than 11...but, I do have a buddy that plays very well, and we occasionally do a gig or two, and some jamming.

The thing I like most about arranger play is control.

Sometimes that means playing alone.

Tony, who would you have for the person, or persons to work with you? A guitarist, singer, drummer? None of the above?




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-17-2009).]

That's right, Tony. Much as I love all the aspects of arranger playing mentioned by many here, nothing, n-o-t-h-i-n-g beats the chemistry of a real band. As a caveat to that, I should mention that in all my years in the real band situation, I never experienced any of the downsides others have talked about. Just lucky, I guess.

You have been lucky, 124...a lot of my musician friends succumbed to drugs, alcohol, or both...seemed to go with the business...I was lucky...I gave up drinking and drugging about 30 years ago, and I've had many years of nice normal playing since then.

No doubt the chemistry of playing in a band is unmatched, as long as there are no chemicals in the band members.

You forgot women, Ian. Or not?

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

The first arranger I recall seeing was Don Mason's. I didn't know him but I was at a party and being, a geetar player musician, fascinated by what he was doing. I approached him, asked a few questions and he was nice and answered my questions.

I guess it was a few years later when I had some money in my pocket, I researched arrangers on the internet and likely, this forum. I ended up buying a Yamaha psr740. It intimidated me and I gave up, not being a player. About a year later, I said screw it, I am going to learn to play this thing. I taught myself how to play chords and off I went. Since then, bought a Yamaha psr2000 and then, an S900. Which is gathering cobwebs because all I do these days is work.

It was funny reading all the arrangers Don has gone through. Man, he is something else. I keep stuff for years, haha, too lazy to learn something new.

Bill, you think that list is long, you should see all the women I've gone through.
Looks like this one might stay around though, it's been 29 years, and she has been here through all the keyboards, including the five I currently own (counting Edirol controller).
I forgot to list the Casio WK I have loaned to a friend.
Bill has become pretty accomplished playing the keyboard. I thought he'd been playing for many years.
DonM

So some got sent to the principles office hmm..you can bet your pretty lil booties Diki recieved this light banning for standing on what was the just side of things for certain..glad it is not a permanant ban,seems i was a hairs breath away on being absent if it were a permanant offence.Glad team D shall shortly conclude.

I was fortunate to have the ULTIMATE band experience ... I started playing music with a few guys in high school - played high school RnR dances, then moved on to college dances ... we added a bass player vocalist and we were together for 26 years, playing weddings and dinner dances ... became best of friends - closer than family - our wives too! ... 25 years ago a business move took me out of NY to RI and the band broke up a year later ... we lost the bass player a year ago, but the rest of us are still close friends ...

Using the arranger I have worked with a player who plays bari, tenor, flute, guitar, and blues harmonica ... and sings! ... I've also worked with a couple of other sax players ... I like the sax addition because it is not loud and brassy like other horns and it fits in well ...

t.

My reasons for using an arranger are very different from your "pro" reasons.

I always liked music. But for various reasons that really don't belong here, (read laziness) I never had the patience and never dedicated the time required to learn to "properly" (eg read notes) play music on any instrument. Thank God I have a good ear.

The first arranger I saw was a Panasonic (if I remember well), model unknown, around 1983. The disovery that this thing could play accompaniments was a revelation.

Next was a Yamaha PSS or early PSR, with about 15 different rhythms, and PCM drums, around 1987.

In 1991, one of the teachers in my vocational college was an "on the side" musician. A denture maker in the day, a musician in the night. Classically trained, (classical singer), he had a superb voice and a Technics KN-600 or something that blew me away. the sound and the realism was better than anything I had ever heard.

2-3 years later I got my Casio.

Why an arranger? For me, it is simply an easy way to play what I like, without having to learn to move my left hand much. 3 finger chords are OK and sometimes I can manage a 7th or two. The right hand plays a recognizable melody and that's it, I am having a good time. I may describe the arranger as the venerable "musical crutch" but that's what it is for me, and I am thankful they were invented. Better to have a wooden leg than no leg at all, right?

Tony, in your first paragraph there I thought you were talking about me. That's pretty much my own scenario right there.

Trident: I never learned to read the dots, either. Like yourself, I have been blessed (or is that cursed?) with a good set of ears. No matter. We all enjoy what we do here, regardless of how we do it.

Edited cos i got Trident's name wrong (oops!)

[This message has been edited by 124 (edited 11-18-2009).]

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/dro0553l.jpg

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

So did I - really and truly.

Also Nigel, this post by you - in reply to a rather unfair one in my opinion:

"Originally posted by Nigel:
If you didn't know then you haven't been around here much when Diki and Dnj's childish bickering hijacked numerous threads. 99% of people here are only too aware of what went down and why I gave us all a break from their antics.

And that is not to say that they are both not here ANYMORE. They are just taking a short hiatus from the forum and will be back.

Make sure you are fully aware of the facts before you start accusing me of "stupid" over moderation. Don't go off half cocked without knowing what went on. Many of the problem postings were removed at the time they became a problem.

In the 11 years I have been moderating this forum in this format I have been accused of under moderating a number of times by people that would prefer I was more hardnosed. This is the first time I have been accused of overmoderating. What on earth would make you jump to that conclusion? I always bend over backwards to let you all draw your own lines. It is only in the rare cases that people are incapable of doing that that I need to step in. And even then it is almost always a temporary suspension just to allow cooling off. But of course you already knew it was only temporary as I already said that in the posting you were referring to."


(This post) is yet another fine example of Nigel being articulate, assertive, and yet fair in tone and content.

I don't care if people see this as brown nosing, I honestly and sincerely find Nigel's replies and running of this forum in general, as the most mature I've come acrosss on the internet (I'm a member of at least 6 other forums) and again, I say this with all Sincerity, from my heart.