Goodbye T3 - hello Pa800

I'm not sure if it was a smart move...not yet. I've been a yamaha user for so long it's a bit difficult to move on to Korg. There's a lot to like about the Pa800. The OS is not one of them. However once you get used to it, it's not that bad- just different. Korg styles vary in quality. They really shine in the ac. guitar - driven styles and a lot of the jazz styles are very good. Same goes for voices. Trumpets, brass, trombones, drums, guitars, strings, and synths are outstanding. Flutes and saxes are unacceptable to my ear. Oh how I long for that Yamaha Sweet Soprano sax. Korg really missed the mark in the sax dept.
So I was assuming that the DNC voices on the 800 would well outdo those on the 500, but basicallywhat they are is just same voices on which some are given special controls for more expression, but as far as I can tell, those bad saxes are just as bad - only with more expression/control. It's too bad because there are other features that are better than Yamaha...it seems the style loops are longer and contain more variety - plus they're not drowning in reverb- more in your face and live- feeling.
Just about everything is customizable on the Pa800 - AND upgrades, voices, and styles are free.
I'm considering taking the 800 back and trading it in for a 500, which is over $1,000 less and has the same engine as the 800 minus some features that are not that impotant to me. I look at the 500 as the "bang for your buck" version just as the S900 or now S910 is on the Yamaha side. I'll most likely end up with the korg Pa500 and Yamaha s910 when all the dust settles- two very excellent keyboards each with outstanding quality yet very different and complimentary. Maybe - just maybe I can then settle in for a while and work on that recording project I've been wanting to do- at least until the bug bites again. Thanks for reading my self-talk. It helped me, anyway.
Tim

Good luck Coaster Tim. I switched from Roland to Korg many moons ago and there are a couple things, particularly some styles, that I miss. But, I wouldn't go back. The PA800 is a fine instrument, and it doesn't hurt this old back hauling it.
Ciao,
Jerry

Tim, it would not be a bad idea to get a Pa500 and a Psr s900. I have a 500 and I can't hear the difference from the 800's demos. The DNC sounds have not been very impressive for me at least from what's been shown in the demos so far. People in the forum say the 800 has a better sound definition but you will probably notice that if you have a 800 and 500 side by side. If you are an amateur the 500 will be more than enough for you, however you'll miss the good keybed, aftertouch and the use of the EC5 pedal. You can check in my video how the 500 sounds in this orchestra setting. Only the lower manual sounds and the middle manual oboe are not from the Pa500:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vClD9eMq10

Good luck

Victor

I am a Tyros 3 owner - get that up front first. I have been seriously looking at the Korg PA2X and the Korg PA800. I am not unhappy with my Tyros 3 - just going through a time of being bored with the same old thing on a daily basis. I gig almost daily now and perhaps I am just in a rut.

I have had extensive dialogue with very serious Korg owners both new and old - none are sorry for their choices and a few are former Yamaha players. If you want to get the real scoop on the Korgs contact Rob Sharret(SP) over on the Korg forums - not much about them he doesn't know. In fact, I am planning a trip to Greece in October to spend a week with him just to learn all I can about the Korgs.

Well, tonight I played a really fun gig for about 100 folks with my Tyros 3 and Bose Compacts setup and while playing I really had to ask myself - how much better can it really get? Be that as it may - I will probably end up with a Korg just for the variety - not to get something "better" just something different.

I am going through the same ordeal of choosing between the PA2x and the PA800 like you are with the PA800 and the PA500. Not sure which way I will go. (Opinions are welcome.)

Good luck with your decision.

Hammer

It never ceases to amaze me how you guys know these keyboards like the back of your hand!

Coaster Tim, that was a very informative post.

Lucky

Victor,
that video was amazing - well done! I am impressed with your setup too. The 500 certainly holds it's own among all it's companion boards in your arsenal. Thanks for your video and your comments.
Tim

Tim, I went from Tyros2 to Korg Pa2xPro, I don't regret the decision. When Tyros3 came along I was tempted, I had one home for a weekend. Bottom line I like the Pa2xPro too much to give it up. I did miss some Yamaha styles and voices particularly the ones you mentioned and especially Sweet Soprano Sax. I purchased an s900 I've got the best of both worlds for my taste. I'll be looking at possibly moving to the s910 once that's released. Good luck in whatever you decide.


Hammer to a degree the same happened to me, I got a bit tired of what was coming from Tyros2 and 50% of the sytles I used were conversions from the G70 or the Korg series. I got restless then I bought a g70, then finally moved to the PA800, when the Pa2xPro was released the 76 keys and physical vertical sliders sold me. Weight of the board is very manageable as well. None of these decisions are easy since each board is outstanding in it's own right.

Victor, incredible set up and great music, thanks for posting it.

Tim - I'd be interested to hear your feelings if/when you switch over to a PA500. I might be able to go to 500 myself and still keep my G70, but a PA800 requires a complete switch. I was 'this much' away from buying a 500 when I bought my last PSR3000. In less than 3 months it is gone (sacrificed for a Compact) and I am still thinking of the Korgs. If what you say about the 500 is accurate, I may just dig into my final pennies and do the deed.

Victor - that is one impressive musical opus. Thank you for sharing with us. I could never handle the necessary programming for all of those keyboards. You have done a great job.

Tim,
Once you played the big brother downgrading to the 500 may make you feel the difference though. Of course if the money was not a problem and all the keyboards were available were I live I would have, even being an amateur player, a Pa2Xpro, a Tyros3, an E80 and an Oasys. But.... if you have to choose, as I said before, a Pa500 and a Psr S900/910 together would be a good option for those of us who don't make a living with arrangers, however you won't belong to the "elite group" in this forum .

Thank you all for your compliments. I know it's far from perfect but when I play freely the music moves my soul specially when I direct the music where I want.

Victor

I have not yet eliminated the possibility of the 588, either. It's a 500 with 88 hammer action keys. It looks ugly but sounds great. (in my not-so-humble opinion).
However I struggled with the key action when trying to play non-piano type voices especially those with velocity-controlled effects like the slide guitars. Even after setting the sensitvity at it's lowest, I had to really hit the keys hard to produce the slide effect. I will give it another try before deciding - it's a great buy right now with Korg's $400 rebate which ends next month.
Tim

I think there's one MAJOR reason to go 800 over the 500, and that IS those DNC capabilities. Notice I didn't say VOICES, as, as you noted, most of them at the moment are simply re-programmed old voices.

BUT... Korg are sure to be working feverishly on new samples to leverage this technology, with a new arranger in the works. And one thing you can be sure of is that Korg will release these for their existing PA2/PA800 customers to load up into them, probably at no cost at all, or DEFINITELY much less than Yamaha are charging for a paltry ONE SA2 sound from their expansion library...

DNC, like SA2, really only shines when samples are specifically recorded for it, but it was released (for free!) halfway through the PA2/800's production cycle. So it needs a whole new set of samples to sound its' best.

I believe those are coming... And I believe that people like James (Irishacts) will be developing third party DNC sounds, something that Yamaha will never allow (their proprietary sample format is already an obstacle to getting the range of normal sample sets other keyboards enjoy, and SA2 cannot be edited).

Yes, now, there's not that much to get excited about with the DNC sounds (though they ARE an improvement), but improvement IS coming, and it will be likely to cost you a LOT less than Yamaha's expansion packs are costing THEIR customers

If I had to get a Korg right now, and couldn't afford the PA2, the only other one I would get would be the PA800. Future-proof yourself, my friend....

Hi Diki,
be great if they did give us some great new voices.

On the whole, Korg has been very generous.

In the 18 months I had my PA800, 2 major upgrades.

1.51, gave us guitar mode style programming, plus 20 or so new guitar voices ( real guitar ) series.
They also upgraded a number of styles to guitar mode tracks.
Plus other stuff.

2.00 upgrade was the DNC capability.
My favourite, importing/exporting complete style as a midifile.
Some new styles.
Plus again, some other new functions.

And, ALL for FREE>

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]

I would buy the PA800 over the PA500,over a few good features one being the sampler, for other people considering to buy,if the price is the obstacle I am sure you can find a PA800 on Ebay for about 2,100 or less new or open box which is like new.

Yep, I felt that way about the G70 (two MAJOR upgrades for free) and Roland...

Since then, though, not much out of Roland except for the minor cost OS2 upgrade to E80, adding the MP3 player (and a bunch of new styles to take the sting out of the paltry $60 or so the upgrade cost).

In the meantime, Yamaha come out with two SA2 sounds for the T3 that cost $200 EACH

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-26-2009).]

Hammer, I am going to visit Rob in Corfu, Greece on Sept 8th, I (we, my wife & me)will be ther 1.5 weeks...we will have a ball with the Pa2XPRO and M3.

Diki,
Yes, I agree on what you say about the PA800 vs PA500. DNC is a very powerful feature and can be easiy used to create your own voices. Plus loading samples is important. PA2XPRO...even better yet(256MB)

Lee S.

Diki
point well taken- if and when Korg upgrades voices - but for now spending $1,000 extra to have the DNC capability is more than I'm willing to do. I think I'll use the 500 as my intro budget board into KorgWorld for now. If I fall in love with the Korg then maybe I'll consider an upgrade next yr. My goal is to have Korg (Pa500) and Yamaha (S910) coexisting in my studio by the end of the year. I'm half- way there. I returned the 800 last night and now have it's little brother. It's what's best for me right now.
Tim

Yes same here. I bought the pa50 first to try out Korg as I never had one. Till now I am very pleased and liked it more then the yamaha's and Rolands I had. I think I wait to upgrade when the new Korgs arrived. Till then there is much to discover on my PA50

Tim,
Most keyboards can be taken out of the shipping carton and played with very little adjusting. And this is what most pros want they do not to put in time understand and then adjusting.

I feel it is not possible to enjoy all that a keyboard can do without spending time. By time I am talking about 6 months or more. You can generally master the keyboard well enough in 2 to 3 weeks to play but as you keep playing the keyboard and expand what you created a while ago it gets better and better. After working on my new my Kn7 for a week I used it on a job. 2 ½ years the same keyboard was 10x better. Better sounds, styles and registrations -- and a better way to utilize the operating system.

So the question --- “Which keyboard” to buy may not be the right one. “How much time am I willing give a new keyboard” may be closer to answering your question.

It is my opinion that a Yamaha keyboard is one of those that need help coming out of the carton. But ---- the keyboard offers many, many options that will allow the creative mind to create just about anything that it can come up with.

I hope this helps, and yes I am loving my new Tyros 3, (Smile) John C.

Hi Tim,

As you know I recently purchased a Korg Pa588. I considered the Pa2X Pro or even the Pa800 but I just didn't want to compromise by not having a full 88 note weighted action. I already have a good 61 note arranger that I have used several times but couldn't stand playing the non-weighted action at least when playing legit piano pieces. As for playing other sounds like organ of solo instruments i.e. trumpet, flute, etc. I don't find the weighted action to be a hindrance at all but maybe that's because I am used to weighted actions.

Regarding the additional features of the Pa2X/800; You have to ask yourself what you really need.

I don't care about sampling, the factory presets are plenty good and the synth engine is very powerful in the way of editing/creating new sounds using the vast assortment of waveforms included in ROM. I suppose if there was some specific waveforms you needed that weren't already in ROM, then the ability to sample would be useful, but for those with programming chops, there is a lot of potential for creating what you need right inside the instrument.

I do kind of miss having a harmonizer or at least a mic input with effects, although my amp has a mic input with a good assortment of digital effects so not a big deal.

The one thing that I would kind of like to have is the ability to record/playback audio files. But since I have an M-Audio MicroTrack it isn't any trouble to record the audio into that and then transfer it to my PC to burn to CD or whatever. And for audio playback, it is easy to connect my iPod to the audio inputs of the Pa588 for break music or to play along with mp3 files. So the lack of the ability built into the Pa588 still is not that big of a deal.

The other thing that would be nice is to have more than one assignable pedal input for fills, selecting variations, etc. But There are a number of MIDI footswitches available that can do the job via MIDI program changes on the Control Channel. Then again, I kick pedals for bass most of the time so my left foot is already busy holding down the bass and my right foot is normally on the sustain pedal. The button layout for fills and variations are smartly located so triggering these by hand isn't cumbersome anyway. So again, not a big deal.

What is a big deal is how good this instrument sounds, how easy it is to operate and how versatile it is. All this talk of DNC sounds, SA2 sounds, etc. personally I just don't see that as all that important. I mean the sounds as they exist in the Pa588 are very good and playable the way they are. The trick is to play the selected sound in the style of the real instrument. It always kills me when I hear someone using a monophonic instrument like sax or trumpet or whatever play chords; it immediately takes away any realism that otherwise might exist. Or playing an organ or guitar sound while using the sustain pedal. Having the extra velocity samples, or fancy algorithms to automatically select from an assortment or articulation waveforms is cool, but if the player doesn't impart the playing technique of the actual instrument, the extra stuff is worthless.

Enough of my 2 cents.

Best Regards,

Dave

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 08-27-2009).]

Lee - we are planning our trip to see Rob in Corfu in late October then on to Blackpool to visit the YPKO bunch the first week of November.

I look to change keyboards because I just simply get bored with what I own at the time. I am one who also doesn't care about sampling and a lot of other features on the current TOTL offering. Once the onboard styles and sounds grow old to me I start looking around.

Like Don, I also spend hours setting up for gigs. I don't like using the same style over and over for gigs so I find different styles for various songs. Takes a lot of time but the result is well worth it.

I haven't changed keyboards often - but I am about ready again. By the way Tim, I too have considered the PA500 just to see how much I really would like to own a PA2X or even a PA800. Spending $3000.00 plus for a trial is just foolish in my way of thinking. I bought a Roland E50 - like Don found the style storage system cumbersome and when I wanted to sell it I found a buyer in just one day and got what I paid for it. Probably wouldn't happen at the $3K level.

Hammer

[This message has been edited by hammer (edited 08-27-2009).]

Lee, Hammer, don't forget to post some pics. of your adventures on Corfu with the Korgmeister. Some You Tube stuff would be most excellent, too. Okay, you guessed, I'm envious. Bon voyage to you both.:-)

124,
Yes, I will post some pics and maybe some music if we do something worthwhile to record. Should be fun and educational as well. We may design and build a new Sax for the PA while I'm there, using DNC?

Hammer, sounds like a great trip your planning...

Lee S.

Lee,

what are you flight plans. I am going about to twist the head of my travel planner. I have PM'd Rob for suggestions on getting to Corfu and am awaiting his reply.

Hammer

Hammer,
Fly to London, stay over 2 nights, then take Easyjet to Corfu. Same returning, but 1 night in London.

Not cheap, but I had plenty of FF miles to cover the R/T London. Easyjet is about $220 each R/T London - Corfu.

E-mail me personal if you want more details etc.

This is going to be great as Rob is the KorgMeister and a real gentleman. First time for us to be in Europe, a little scary??

Lee S.

Thanks Lee for the info. You will have a great time in Europe. London is like any other really big town - some really nice places and a few you don't want to wonder off into. You can catch the main tourist sites in 2 days but doing any of the musiems takes a good deal of time.

In Greece you will run into a few things that are really different from stateside like the public bathroom are for everyone(not his and hers) and not free to use - last year they charged up to 1 euro per person to use the public bathrooms. Also, in public places you had to be a paying customer to use the bathroom. You'll get a kick out of the cars and motorscooters - really a lot of both in Europe - not so much in the UK.

Food was really expensive too. We paid 97 Euros - about $150.00 for 2 large pizzas, one bottle of house wine, and 2 glasses of water at a place in Venice. It was like that all over Europe.

Check with your bank about the exchange rate on your credit card - that is not always the best way to go. One other thing, keep an eye on your wallet. I had my pocket picked last year - had the darn thing in my front pocket too. They are the best in the world at it.

You will feel more comfortable in the UK - same language -well sort of -and many similiar customs. The Brits are rather upfront about manners and being polite - something all of us have seemed to let die. We never make a trip without learning things and coming home with the high hopes of being able to return. It is very addictive.

One other thing - check with your insurance company - see if your auto insurance is good there. Some are, some aren't. We always us a credit card for our rental cars with very small limits on them - was once really screwed by a car rental company - learned the hard way. And remember -a lot of the countries have a complete zero tolorance with visitors - behave yourself.

Thanks again for the flight info. I am going to check into it today and will probably book our flights.

Hammer