PSR 3K vs G-70, is there any comparison?

A month ago I played my first solo job at a nursing home and used my mighty G-70 for the one hour gig. Afterward, I quickly sought out a second board that would still do the job, but be smaller and lighter - the 3K. Today I did a reprise at the NH and used the 3K. Now I have a dilema.

There is no doubt the G-70 is a far superior board in almost every category, but the 3K has some surprising characteristics that may keep it n my NH arsenal for quite some time. The G has a fantastic keyboard and feel, and I love the piano, strings and organ sounds to no end. The mic/harmonizer section is fantastic. But I have yet to really attack and master the intracasies of the OS, especially registrations and this is holding me back.

The 3K has a much smaller keyboard, and I just don't mean the 61 keys. The keys are thinner and shorter and definitely have that plastic feel. That said, it's size and weight make it a lot easier to trasport - a lot. The OS is easier to approach and I like the fact that I can save songs and styles in separate, multiple folders. The mic section didn't work for me; I'll have to check that out, so I used my M-Harmony - nice touch.

Roland has better styles for me, but I am surprisingly liking the Yamaha brass. The 3K piano still sounds thin to my ears, but I can now accept the organ flutes (drawbars) where in my previous 3K ownership I didn't care for them. I still long to sit behind the BIG board, but it is much easier to prepare onself to play a Yamaha than a Roland, IMHO.

So now what do I do? I was thinking I might put the G-70 up for sale, but now I'm backing off. While the weather is still nice I am going to try using the G-70 at least a couple times more. If I can handle the G, it wins. At the same time, I will continue to hone my Yammy skills; I need to learn how to do registrations there too. Meahwhile I'm preparing a new demo to distribute to local retirement and nursing homes. I think that with time and experience, this OMB thing will be as easy and fun as playing with my trio was. Both boards could be platooned, if need be - we"ll see...

Cassp,

Considering you are comparing an essentially TOTL arranger, to a mid line instrument, the comparison will be a tough one.

What you have to ask yourself, is will the intended audience know and appreciate the difference?

Using a smaller and perhaps even more easy to use instrument will surely make your life easier...I remember just moving the 62 lb Yamaha CP-300 from room to room in my house not being a pleasant task, let alone moving it from home to studio.

Sure, the piano/organ on the G70 sounds better...and well it should...the G70 was the top of the Roland line...the 3K is not in the same league, but is it really that so far away that it isn't a viable musical instrument in it's own right?

I use an S900 instead of a Tyros3, simply because I like playing it more...the piano isn't as robust, but it is still a very good piano sound, and sometimes a sound that is a teensy bit thinner, seems to fit in the arranger's mix better...for solo piano/organ it wouldn't stand up to much scrutiny, but still...it does sound like a "piano" and it does sound like an "organ" to your intended listener.

I use a laptop (a good one) instead of a PC, because I find it handier...and it doesn't hog any space, and I can move it from room to room, or pack it up and take it to the studio, or on the road with me...I don't have a desktop PC at all, nor do I want or need one.

The S900 is my "laptop"...I formerly had a PSR-3000...same deal...I liked it better than the Tyros1...I like having the speakers that make it an instant setup for practice, or taking to my hotel room, and not needing headphones.

Don't sell the G70...it will be a great board to do other projects with...and, you like it a lot, so you'd be sorry you sold it.

Good luck with the G70 for gigs..I really hope it works for you...I know I'm happy with gigging with the much lighter and compact instrument, and my audience is very happy with my sound...and so am I...and I am especially happy at the end of the gig with a lot less work ahead of me regarding packing and moving.

Ian - please don't misunderstand me to think the 3K and G-70 should be equals. I'm not THAT stupid - well, kinda. The biggest and probably only reason not to use the G is the weight - keyboard + case = HEAVY.

The 3K is good enough and certainly the audience is not feeling cheated in any way. You know how it is when you really like something but must compromise on using it for one reason or another. Even Fran is resting his G70 in favor of other lighter options. I like apples and oranges, so I'll probably keep them both for now or until I hit the Mega Millions jackpot someday. Thanks for the advice.

cassp,

I started out with a PSR3000 and just loved it. Since then I have owned a Korg PA1X and my new Tyros 3. I still enjoy using my PSR300 on gigs - it is very easy to setup and transport. My main complaint about gigging with the Tyros 3 is weight. Lately I have been doing triples and to lug it around to three gigs a day is a real chore.

I can tell you from experience with the PSR3000 that it might very well be the best arranger yamaha has ever built. It has yet to let me down and styles are easily converted or tweaked if needed. It won't sound like a Tyros keyboard - but it has plenty of great styles built into it and a ton of them available for free.

Good luck with the 3K.

Hammer

Sell the G70 and get a PA800. The whole board is unbelievable and the audience absolutely loves the sound. I get many compliments on its sound. The harmonizer is fantastic, it smokes the 3K keybed and has more features than the G70. A truly live players dream Styles? - everything you can ever want and more and they're all fantastic. Cass, you like the G70 REAL sound - the 800 is equal (imo).

[This message has been edited by zuki (edited 07-17-2009).]

The G70 has no equal...

Cass..do you want a E-50...I don't mind carrying the G70...in fact I prefer it...Email me if you want the E-50...but I don't need or want a PSR3000...

I just bought a Juno Stage for use with the band..and I will always use the G70 for my solo work..I just want 76 keys...61 is not for me...

I don't usually agree with you, Fran, but you do make a good point.

The E-50 would certainly be a great partner to the G70, especially if you can swap styles between the two.

Again, an E-60 would be even better...still 76 keys, and much lighter than the G70 by far....but Cassp already had one of those, if I'm not mistaken...wonder why he didn't keep it?

If he did go for the E-50/60 , Cassp would also have to give up those terrific Yamaha Mega Voice styles, and be reduced to 64 note poly, as opposed to 128, but perhaps, he wouldn't mind?

Let me try to address all the comments so far. In summary, I have owned a Korg iX300, Yamaha PSR2000, Roland G70, PSR3000, E60, another G70 and another 3K... plus others.

Ian - knowing what Iknow now, keeping the e60 would have been nice, but I sold it to buy the G70. It's that darn money thing again...

Hammer - this is round two with the 3K, so I knew what I was buying when I decided to buy into it again. It is a great keyboard; sounds very good, but has its personal disappointments, especially the keybed.

Fran - a month ago I might have taken the bait, but Uncle Dave's deal was too hard to pass up. I am quite pleased with it as a 'portable' for those shorter, smaller jobs. We'll see.

Zuki - this is the only option I have yet to investigate. I did seriously consider a PA500 with the new rebate and such. What kept me from going that route was the simple matter that there are no PA dealers in my area and I didn't want to buy sight unseen.

So this is what I am thinking: give the G70 another try, especially during this warmer weather. As my business picks up, which I hope happens soon, I'll then have to decide the need for this lighter keyboard. Right now, once a week may not be too much to ask of these old bones, but in & out of the house more than that may be worth a call to the bullpen.

Cass,

NO! Not the PA500 - you sing well - the 800 will float your boat (they are light years apart).

Look, they're all great boards and the audience doesn't give a crap. It comes down to your command of the keyboard, playing and singing skills and what YOU think sounds the best.

You've not tried the PA. It might be your ticket, might not - never know. I can tell you its a sleeper, full of amazingly musical character.

Zuki - I'm truly interested, but economics are not on my side at the moment. Keyboards are purchased thru my playing account. Since I haven't played out in almost two years, the account is pretty shallow.

I have followed you thru various boards and I know that you are very pleased with the 800. StephenM had a 800 and now plays a PA2xPro; he loves that. And, yes the PA800 could be a great fit for me. With the exception of my iX300, which I liked very much, I haven't seen or heard a Korg arranger since. I hope I can check one out on a vacation or trip somewhere, but no one near Detroit carries them.

Cass, I'll tell you what. Next time I visit the in-laws at their lake front home in Farwell, I'll pass through and bring my 800

Hi cassp...Remember My FRIEND, Your Health is the Most Important Fact Here...I know You sold Your E-60 to Me, to purchase The G-70 which You Love to play...and it's works well for your Home playing...But please don't take any risk moving it about to gigs...Most People have a problem with that situation...It's just not worth it cassp...Unless You have someone to handle it for You Ok?...Just Share Your Great TALENTS My Friend.....And HAVE FUN...Harold

Cassp... have you considered the possibility of getting yourself a musical partner, a guitarist, a sax player, something like that? On the one hand, you gain a different musical perspective on the material (hopefully a good thing ), and an influx of new material that perhaps you might not have considered, you gain an instrument that, no matter HOW hard they try, arrangers have great difficulty emulating well, and you hopefully gain a second singing voice, better than artificial harmonies, and maybe perhaps even a better singing lead voice than your own, but also, on the other hand, you also gain a partner that can assist you in lifting some of the heavier items you carry...

A burden shared is a burden halved...

Personally, I have little trouble moving my own equipment, but the addition of a MUSICAL partner has that additional benefit, and I certainly don't mind the help! But primarily, having an additional musical input helps me enjoy my gigs, adds an element of surprise (you never know EXACTLY what they are going to play, unlike an arranger) and challenge.

I know it's a BIT harder to find gigs for two as it is for one, but OTOH, in today's economy, smaller outfits (but larger than OMB) are a growth area.

Before you commit lots of money to simply making moving easier (and lose out on the sound and OS you prefer), consider the ADDITION of something to your act, rather than the removal....

Diki - I've played with my own trio for years. I'd love to continue playing with my guitarist, but he has a day job as does the sax man. Anyway, I'd prefer to let the sax go as he is no longer able to keep up, so to speak. I'm always open to playing with others; right now OMB is the focus of my efforts. Thanks for the concern and guidance.

It is the reverse for me with the trio...My job is not easier..My mixing and running the show is 3 fold..dealing with personalities that change throughout the month.. ..And waving off songs that I call..because it is "too early in the night" vocally..

And comments that the song sounds different..and it is the same MP3..they sang with for 7 years...

Then they think.."no problem" for a guest singer to come up on stage...and leave it up to me..to back them..while they step off stage..

At the end of the night..after I pack my own gear...I have to pitch in and load their gear..because they decided to chat with someone...knowing I will be there ..still..to get paid..

I disagree...Bands are not always as enjoyable ..and a heck of a lot more work..

Now working with just one of my "cute girls"..is another story..

But who says it's SUPPOSED to be easy..? It's about making art, isn't it? I am sorry, but I refuse to delude myself into thinking that simply sitting down and either running rote through a bunch of MP3's or just LH chording the large percentage of one's accompaniment and playing a simple RH melody is anything other than commerce at it's crassest. I know this is not going to be a popular opinion here (and don't forget, that is all that it is ), but on the one hand we have a lot of people superficially concerned with making music, but then we get attitudes like this, and I'm sorry, but I am sure there is another side to this coin. What do you think those dead weights you seem to think you are carrying are saying about YOU on some other forum (if they had the poor taste to actually voice them?). Only the most egotistical amongst us could possibly think that they don't have issues with US, as well

So far, I have yet to hear anything on this forum that I could comfortably say could NOT be improved by the addition of good live musicians. No matter HOW good we are, a machine is NOT the ideal accompaniment. In fact, the better we are, the WORSE playing with machines makes us. The machines keep getting better, but are still poor imitations of really good musicians (if you aren't playing with those, then that is YOUR problem, not theirs ). If you ARE a great musician, you have to ask yourself why you are playing with such lesser ones. Is it them, is it you, is it something you don't want to think about? Or maybe it is just that we are no better than they, we merely have a machine that disguises our inabilities (to the less discerning listener, at least)...

But maybe it IS simply about money... what is the value of music compared to that, in our material world?

Well, I sure can attest that playing along with the style designers of the PA800 is a very fulfilling journey. I've been in many bands with many great (Berkley grad) musicians and NO ONE, I SAY NO ONE can hold a candle to who plays along with me in that little plastic work of art. Hell, I'm pretty trained myself and it takes me forever to figure out the chords in endings and intros - what a great teaching tool. I disagree that a machine dumbs down a musician.

Harold, I thank you for all the concern for my health. Actually, one time up and down the stairs would be an event but not a catastrophe. MY strength is pretty good, but the stamina is not there as it used to be, so if I had to go up and down stairs to load all my heavy equipment into the van like I used to I'd be pretty winded and exhausted by the end. Right now, I usually enlist my daughter to help me carry it up the steps. Once it's on the main floor I can pretty much handle it with a little effort.

I will keep your good advice close to heart and only try using the G-70 in good weather. Thanks so much for your concern.

That would be me, Diki...guilty as charged.

I play LH chords, and a melody in the RH.

To me, it is not about making "art", but rather, playing instrumental music that I love, making a decent living, and being happy, the last one being the by-product of achieving the first two.

So far, it been very successful.

Ian the Most Crass

Well, I've heard you play... And I don't think that this DOES describe you at all, Ian! You spend a lot of time customizing styles to get around the very thing I describe. Hardly our typical member...

And Zuki, perhaps a less kind Diki than the current one might have quoted the "I'm pretty trained myself and it takes me forever to figure out the chords in endings and intros" and said something glib like "I rest my case" but I'm trying not to be that guy any more...

It's the rote repetition that gets me... mechanically, those 'arranger musicians' can seem superficially competent, but they'll NEVER surprise you, they'll never push the arrangement into a place that you wouldn't have taken it yourself. Heck, every single time YOU play a major chord, they are going to play the EXACT SAME THING. Forever...

If that's your idea of the perfect musician, you have my condolences. Just stay away from those Berklee grads (few of whom I've worked with had an ounce of musical common sense and taste, they are often just bitter frustrated bebop wannabes ) and hire yourself some musicians with heart and taste.

Diki, I wonder - with the opinions you hold regarding arrangers and players - how and why you use an arranger yourself. I know you use some SMF, but what about styles? Do you rely mainly on the drum and bass tracks? I know you often play with other musicians, how does your arranger status mix with that? Where do you see yourself fitting into this Arranger spectrum?

Cass first chance you get a few dollars ahead just take the plunge with the PA800. I did based on some recommendations here. I don't regret it. Plus that's one of the few boards you haven't owned I think you'll like what you hear.

Hi Cass,
I luv my PA800 also. Probably for different reasons to the others.
I luv it's style editing/creation functions & the pads.

Haven't owned a korg arranger since early 90's ( i2 & i5m ).


best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stephenm52:
[B]

Cassp.... although a large percentage of my work this year is with live musicians, I have used the arranger enthusiastically since the days of the RA90 (and before that, home organs). It's not that I am against them in any way, it is just that, while I realize their usefulness in making a solo act sound band-like, and their potential for making a solo career lucrative, I still refuse to delude myself that, when I use an arranger, I am playing with something BETTER than a live band. Perhaps it is the musicians I get to play with (one of my current drummers has two Grammy's!), perhaps it is my love of improvised music (even if it is simply smaller aspects of a worked out arrangement), perhaps it is my love of playing fully two handed with no regard for the chores of mere chord input (while a machine gets to play the fun stuff!), and perhaps it is the realization (I am not sure some of us here get this one) that for every peeve about working with others, they quite likely have one about ME! I simply can't make myself believe that they are all dead weight with less musical value than a MACHINE.

When need and opportunity arrive, I have no problem using said machine, and proudly, too... but when need and necessity arrive, I don't have to come out with absurd statements like 'better than any Berklee grad' to make myself feel better about it.

Why do I still use an arranger at all? Well, apart from the obvious, it's also just about the only gear out there with a drum machine with four main patterns and six fills that is easy to use live (for when you have a full band minus the drummer, or minus drummer and you do LH bass), and even in a live band situation, it is BY FAR the easiest type of keyboard to use on 'pick up' gigs, where you never know what sounds you might need for a song... Piano at the top and organ at the bottom, or piano at the bottom, organ at the top? On most WS's, swapping those two around, or creating a registration from scratch (with effects routings and key touch sensitivities) is simply out of the question on the gig, while you play... Multiply that by EVERY song in a set (it could happen! ), and you have a clear superiority in an arranger. They are DESIGNED for live use, with little compromise for the sake of studio flexibility. Couple that with, at least on our G70's, a no compromise 76 keyboard action and a WS quality (read durable) construction, easy to use touch screen and slider control, and you have a MUCH better live band keyboard than just about any WS I have played (and I have played 'em all ).

I have no beef with the arranger at all, only with those that are so easily convinced that they somehow have something BETTER than real musicians. If they aren't playing with those that show an arranger up for the stiff, mechanical, unmusical (when, oh when, are arrangers ever going to figure out how to do smooth voice leading on chords?) machine it actually is, I am sorry. It is pretty obvious they don't know what they missed (or were oblivious to it when they DID have it).

The trend towards arrangers simply using RECORDINGS of real musicians only seems to prove my point. The machine is hitting limits that only those same 'dead weight' musicians can provide the content to truly fool the listener. One would think, if the arranger truly IS better than real musicians, there would be no need for this at all!

So.... no apologies for using an arranger. I love 'em! But at least I don't need to go and apologize to my drummer, for implying for one minute that the machine is better than he is!

Diki - very nicely and clearly stated. I think I understand you and your opinions much better now. I know from my own experience that my opinions of keyboards and features changes with who with and how often I'm playing. Having not played regularly for almost two years now, my needs and wants are much different than when the trio was playing regularly. Using an arranger in a band setting was definitely different for me than playing OMB. Thanks for clearing thing up for me.

Ya gotta give it to Diki...he's articulate and passionate about what he does, musically.

I am in a place right now where I have to play arrangers. They're OK, but never even close to replacing real musicians for the style I want to play.

They're great tools, and right now, I wouldn't be working without them. And, even before my accident, they're an economic necessity for some of my jobs.

Again, I believe that a person who's primary focus is entertainment would prefer an arranger. A person who primarily is a musician would prefer to play with other musicians.

The unspoken interplay in a free form mode between musicians of equal skill and creativity is the highest of highs. Trading fours, modulations on the fly, medlies...playing off of each other...brief allusions to other tunes is amaising, but only works in certain situations.

I guess if you put a big "FOR ME" in front of the opposing posts, it's easy to see both are right for the individual.

I see Jim's points, and his approach works for him. That's not the way I do it, but that doesn't mean I'm right and he's wrong. And, if he and I or Diki and I have a chance to play together, I believe we'd have a BALL!

The key is to find a way to play in a manner that brings you and your audience joy.

After all, isn't that why we're all here?

Play on, however you choose to do it.

Russ



[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 07-23-2009).]

It would be my honor to play with just about any of you out there on SZ... But that's my thing. I always look forward to playing with other musicians (of all abilities). Playing with other musicians' MACHINES, though, that's a different thing!

If I ever get in your neighborhood, Russ, you can count on it that I will be dropping in... And you ever make it down to my neck of the woods, I am going to expect a call

Diki, you can count on it! You'd certainly be welcome! I need to get to Florida later this year on some family business. Be great if I could coax Chas to come along.


Russ

Diki, I'm in the Clearwater area for the last week of Feb and the first two weeks of March. Unfortunately, that's still a pretty long drive up to you.

Yep.... sometimes I think I live in 'a galaxy far, far away...'