Ketron Audya "Riff" Examples

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv_sparfyQQ

Should be live in about 10 minutes,

BTW my daughter might pop in the picture, she's 4 and trying to help

sorry

Frank

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www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

Thank you Frank great job...sounds great.
some very useful stuff there for sure!!

Frank, looks like you're having some fun with the Audya. The Latin styles are sounding good. BTW, it's never too young to get your children started on the arranger.

The first time you hear these, you might go 'wow, that's cool'... Trouble is, of course, there's ONE for the style. FOREVER. Every time you use this feature, this is what you will get. FOREVER. No different chords, changes, rhythms, variations, anything....

I'm sorry, but allowing the user to program the changes in themselves would have been a MUCH more useful feature, pick the variation, that sort of thing. Heck, why stop there? Just let the user PLAY the changes one time and hit 'Loop'...

BTW, can you mute Parts out of JUST the Riff? Some of those sounded awfully busy to solo over the top of...

I'm sorry, but this feature comes tantalizingly close to being useful, but falls flat on it's face just before the finish line, IMO. Perhaps it could be made more useful by allowing you (once the style editing functions ever arrive) to create your OWN Riffs, but I never heard that was possible on the SD-1 (am I wrong?).

To be honest, you could do the same thing on any arranger by programming one of the Intros and just keep tapping the button to repeat it. I just don't get it. Roland have dropped the Chord Sequencer, so there's no 'me too' factor or patent to worry about. Why not just copy what Roland did, and call it 'Super Riff' or whatever?

And turn a gimmick that will tire quickly into a useful live tool?

I love the feature, when I need to take another drink of my vino, I hit riff and get my drink on

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www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

I love the feature, when I need to take another drink of my vino, I hit riff and get my drink on

------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

I love the feature, when I need to take another drink of my vino, I hit riff and get my drink on

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www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

I just hate getting drunk to the same tune every night (and hitting 'submit reply' over and over cos of this damn shtupid compluter, hic!)

oooops, just noticed, that homemade stuff has some kick

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www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

Hi Frank,
I get LOUSY playback because of my inferior wireless internet connection, so had to give up trying to play the demo.

Can I ask a couple of questions, as I haven't got a clue what a riff is, my SD1+ didn't have that function. I beleive it was introduced on the sd5.

Firstly does riff play instead of a variation?? ie is it a complete style part, not just a single style track?

Are they designed for you to play along with, or is it more of a solo feature, to give the player a break. ie some of my very old Technics Americana styles ( I think it was) had solo style parts that were designed to play a solo while the player sat back & twiddled their thumbs ( I luved them as they were better than I could have played haahaa)

I just found Diki's comment on maybe being able to do something similar with an intro , interesting. Always looking for new style ideas to try out on my Korg.

best wishes
Rikki

Riffs, to be honest, are VERY like looped Intros, the kind where you play the initial chord, and then it plays changes.

For me, it would be the perfect way to play a solo that uses a lot of bender, or (if you switch off the chord recognition) a really outside piano solo (that didn't send the chord recognition bananas) or pick up another instrument and solo, or go out front and mug with the audience, or anything you'd like (including that well deserved drink ), but there's no reason it couldn't have a nice solo in it for you to sit back and listen to...

Thing is, Ketron's Riff is ONE preset set of changes per style, and so far, no idea if you can add your own (I don't think the SD-1 could). Me, I'd rather have control over the changes....

On your Korg, you could import an SMF to one of the Intros, and loop it (can you loop intros like you can fills, with a double-tap?) to get pretty much the same thing, only at least YOU can program them (make an SMF of the arranger playing what changes you want, save it and import to an Intro). Sure, you lose an Intro... but who uses all four, anyway?

If you can't loop Intros, just either keep hitting it in the bar before it finishes, or put Intro on a pedal and hit that...

Four Intros and Endings on most arrangers, and who uses maybe more than one of each? That's six patterns you can put in... Intros for jam loops and break/fills or longer fills, and Endings for pauses (use autostart to come back in). There's a lot you can use these unused sections for. If you like Ketron's Riff feature, you can do it on your arranger even if it isn't in the basic feature set...

Hi Diki,
SD1+ didn't have riff function, that's why I wasn't sure of what it was.
Thank you for the detailed explanation.

Got my mind racing with possibilities.
I could sacrifice an Intro which would give me a solo for cv1 & cv2 to play with,
( the double tap works for looping the intro's, endings, as well as fills.)

Or I could sacrifice a variation, in which case I could end up with 6 solo's, one for each of the 6 cv's. A variation can be set to No Transposition same setting as used in an Intro that contains chord changes.

I split my keyboard as low as possible, ie only enough notes so that I can change from maj to min to 7ths etc ( ie assign a different chord type per cv).
The low split gives me the opportunity to solo using the rest of the keys without changing chords.
Split can be set independantly for each of the 4 variations, so the other 3 variations could be split for normal style play mode.

In " No transpose" setting the chord type is irrelavent, it's only used to trigger the various cv's. The actual setting for each of vthe tracks is done independantly.

All the cv's in the variation have to use the same instrumentation & the only time I'd have to do detailed editing would be for a Guitar Mode track Style. (Chord changes are done via velocity & a certain range of notes, so may cause a couple of problems.)

Don't know if it's unique to the Korg, but I beleive I could literally have a mix of midifile based variations( chord changes in the variation) along with normal style variations.
Don't know if there's any benefit musically, just find it interesting what can be done. haahaa

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]Riffs, to be honest, are VERY like looped Intros,

The Riff feature is not on the SD1. It was first introduced on the SD5. IMO, it's a great feature when playing live... I use it all the time. Makes for a nice segway between songs if you're playing a medley.

Glenn

Rikki, fwiw and going on my memory, what Diki is talking about is ONLY available for intro 1 on the PA series, where you can use a smf as the intro instead.

I could be wrong, but check it out..

Dennis

Hi Dennis,
for PA800
no,
"No Transpose" which is the setting
Intro 1 & Ending 1 uses ( by default)for Intro/Endings for onboard styles with chord changes, is actually a setting available on all the style parts. Don't know if you happen to remember, but all the style parts incl fills can be up to 32 bars long.

Only difference as far as I can tell between Intro's/Endings/Fills and Variations is
2 Cv's for I/E/F
6 CV's for Variations
and the way these parts are handled

ie variations automatically loop

Intro's go to a variation
Endings stop
fills play thru once & go to a variation
unless you tap any of the above twice & they'll also keep looping like a variation does.

What possibly made you beleive that Intro1/Ending1 were the only ones that could handle a chord progression was because of what's in the manual.

Manual has stuck to the basics. Users probably find the style structure confusing enough with it's 6cv's & 48 tracks & ntt settings etc without telling them, btw you can put a chord progression in a variation, or guess what , you can have a different time signature & tempo in each of your variations( not in the manual either).

Some of the stuff that can be done would only be suitable as a user style that the user has created for themself, if shared, you'd have to give instructions on how the style is to be played
ie btw only the bottom octave notes useable for chord changes as variation 4 contains 6 riffs.
c triggers cv1, cm :cv2, c7 cv3, cm7:cv4, c6:cv5 , cm6 cv6.
etc etc
I must admit I haven't tried it with 6 cv's , I've only tried it with 2 so far.

Only thing that may get in my way, is if there's a limit to the size of the style file.

Anyway I'm off to give it a go, just for the heck of it.

best wishes
Rikki

Okay Rikki, cool, thanks for the correction. Yeah I always thought it was possible to just import your 32 bar mini-midi file with all the tracks in place and then just recycle with a double tap, but clearly not.

Good luck, would be another "feather" for Korg if you figure it.

Dennis

I'm not saying the 'Riff' feature is useless. Simply that it is ROM only, hence the same every time. It would simply be MUCH more useful if you could program your own changes... which basically you can if you'll go to the bother of reprogramming your styles.

Me, with the Chord Sequencer, I used to be able to do it on the fly. Different every time. Sure, it's a great feature (feel better?), but doesn't it just cry out to be just a little BIT better..?

If you like 'Riffs', you'd LOVE the Chord Sequencer...

Yeah I have not used it Diki, but from your descriptions I reckon I would like it.

I have asked Dom a couple of times about it, but he thinks its more in the realm of the developers of the Qtractor...But maybe one day

Dennis

Yeah... a really cool thing I miss from my old G1000.... I really don't know why programmers removed it from G70, I think it's not to save RAM because saving chord progressions take only a few bytes (just the MIDI events of chord progressions have to be saved), nor Flash space for program code, since a chord sequencer routine could be only a few lines of code, it's really simple and the sequencer routines that can be used are already there, so I can only figure they removed it to save.... the space took by the two buttons!!!!

[This message has been edited by mrdave (edited 06-02-2009).]

Hi Diki,
I possibly had the Chord sequencer on the G800??? You're making me wish I'd tried it.
If it did have it, I know I never used used it.

The SD5/Audya riff function, does sound interesting though. Be easier to have dedicated buttons rather than using one of the style parts.

Still it's given me great food for thought, & something new to try on my Korg.

best wishes
Rikki

The chord sequencer was present in the G1000, G800, and other arrangers way back to the PRO-E and E-20 I think...(I had the PRO-E and if my memory is still good, I remember it had that feature....)

The difference between the VA and E series , compared to the G800 and G1000...The G series functioned in true realtime..

You know... I've got a sneaky feeling that if Roland had put the controls for the CS right next to the keyboard, instead of up in the top left corner, people would have used it a lot more... Generally, the further away from the keys, the less attention people pay to things

I lobbied Roland long and hard for the return of the CS. I even pointed out that there were four perfectly placed buttons closer to the keys than the G1000's were that would have done the job perfectly. In style Mode, you have ABSOLUTELY no need for the 'Mark/Jump' buttons, an SMF feature. They could have easily retasked those... I even had an article about ways it could be even BETTER. First was, you could save the Chord Sequence on a G1000, but you had to load it up separately. So I thought a CS, 'Linked' to automatically load when you loaded the Registration (UPG). Now, you have Ketron's Riff feature, but your own changes already pre-loaded (in case you didn't play them during the song)...

And, with a touch screen, there's no reason why multiple CS's couldn't either be pre-recorded or grabbed on the fly, and allow you to switch between them. One for the head, one for a vamp, one for a solo... Maybe it starts to sound a bit like using SMF's, but you have to remember, you could STILL change variations, fill where you felt like, heck, even change the style completely...

Last was some kind of 'Auto Quantize' at it's simplest, or a sequencer NTA track, where you could tidy the timing of the CS, so any timing 'glitches' from being fractionally late or early could get edited out. Particularly handy when you are making an SMF from style play, and you don't want to get overloaded with all those 'false' notes with portamento of zero to the correct ones (ever look at a piano roll of arranger play in a DAW sequencer?). Roland's resolution on it's chord recognition is to the 1/16th. Handy if you DO need a chord change that syncopated, but bad if your chord input is a hair sloppy. This would have tidied things up great...

Roland ought to, by this time, at least realize they tossed out the baby with the bathwater. Just about everyone who DID use the CS has complained about it's loss, and many that never used it are starting to realize how great a tool for helping get the best out of arranger Mode it can be. Even Ketron's Riff Mode (sorry I forgot they only put it on the SD-5, you would have though they could have rolled it into an SD-1 OS update) helps raise awareness that there IS a good reason to have something that can take over chord duties for a while, while you concentrate on something else...

But until it grabs YOUR chord changes, for me at least, it doesn't quite capture the spirit of the Roland Chord Sequencer.

Thanks Mr Dave.

Guys, maybe we all should start complaining,
maybe one of the companies will add it.
( won't hold my breath, haahaa)

My memory is less than brilliant nowadays, but, somewhere in the back of my mind, I vaguely remember being able to put a chord progression into a KN7 multipad.( been 5 years since I sold it) Can't remember if it controlled only the pad or the style as well
( if it's not the case, I've finally gone totally loopy).

If it was the case that would be a handy function to be able to assign to a multipad.
Have the pad dictate a chord progression rather than follow.

best wishes
Rikki

Well, you've got a Chord Sequencer in your Korg, don't you, Rikki? Don't Korg's still have that Chord Track thing from the PA80?

Difference, of course, was that Roland allowed on the fly input of chords, and the ability to go in and out of it without interrupting normal play, but anything that allows us to stay in style mode and yet still hand off the chord input at least for a while is a good thing...

You know, I don't feel as resigned as some of you. Yamaha's SA technology created such a stir, was such a hit even with non-owners, that Korg went ahead and basically copied it, and Roland are working on it. If enough buzz is created by a certain feature, you can be sure that your manufacturer will at least LOOK at it to see if it can be added...

One MORE thing the CS allowed you to do (as if you needed more!)... want to solo AND walk a bass around at the same time? Can't do that if in style mode. Play the head the first time through with chords, record the changes, then switch off ABASS and keyboard recognition. Now the CS changes play the ACC, while you walk and solo... Cool!

Hi Diki,
never owned a PA80, could there be a function I'm not aware of on my PA800??
There is a lot of stuff I haven't totally worked out.

What I've been doing is just recording midifile of a "variation with a chord progression" , then replacing an existing variation or Intro with one that has the chord progression in it. ( my version of a riff).

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]Well, you've got a Chord Sequencer in your Korg, don't you, Rikki? Don't Korg's still have that Chord Track thing from the PA80?

Hi Rikki and Diki,

I am a new Pa800 owner and would love to grab a live chord seq, is that possible ???

Best Regards
Paul

You see what I reckon you could do is this:

We all know you can load up a complete midi file as intro 1..Why not record that midi file from the PA800 using the style you have chosen, record the chord progression, it might be 8 bars 16 bars or even 32 bars, and then save that as a midi, save it to the style. Granted it will be in a specific key but it would give you a pseudo CS???? And I THINK intro one is also governed by the transpose function...

Just an idea and it may not work...but it was something I thought of when I had the PA, just never got around to trying..

Dennis

Nothing currently will grab a chord sequence live, on the fly. They all need setting up in advance. We are currently discussing ways to do this. Only way to get it 'live' is to buy an older G1000 and earlier) Roland arranger.

I have heard from one of Roland's top European demonstrators that STILL (or at least, last time I heard from him) uses a G1000 in preference to a newer G70 (for his own, private gigs), then he MIDI's it to a TD drum module, VK organ and Fantom rack to get basically the G70 'sound', but you can still use the Chord Sequencer.

Roland need BADLY to revive this feature... at least they would have ONE feature that they could claim absolutely no-one else has (OK, there's quite a few, but this one relates to live play! ) that is as revolutionary as SA and Mega guitars.

What makes you think everyone wants or needs this Cs feature ...I for one wouldn't use it....never did on my G1000 either I think I'm a majority, as I never used a sampler either for my style of playing an arranger...there is a reason Roland dumped the chord Sequencer...they know what their doing for the future & the companies needs to make a profit..will they bring back the CS I highly doubt it, will they design new technology in their new units of course they will.Time to move on its 2009.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-04-2009).]

Hi Paul,
live no.

What Dennis has suggested is basically something I've been doing, except I tried it with a variation.

In sequencer mode, I used the steptime function. Chose the style & put in an 8 bar chord progression. Saved ( as a mmidifile).

Next I chose the style,
pressed record mode
chose Existing
In Edit chose IMPORT function
Chose the style part to replace
( whether it be one of the intro's or one of the variations) made sure initialize was Not checked. Imported it.

Next you have to make sure settings for each tracks are at "No Transpose" ( not fifth or root).

If you've recored your riff in the key it's going to be played in, just leave setting at cmaj. This means when you play c maj key in style play mode, your riff will play back exactly as recorded.

Save user style.

In style play mode when you play chord for that variation or intro, your riff will playback as recorded.

I can go into further detail, for other scenerio's, just depends what you're trying to do.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by miden:
[B]


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best wishes
Rikki

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/PA800_StyleMaking/

Thanks, Donny... Apparently, no-one at Yamaha thinks you need a decent harmonizer either. Time to move on, quit asking for it. Or ANYTHING, for that matter.

For me, at least, the CS allowed you to remain in style mode, fully interactive, and still gain a certain degree of freedom from inputting the chords when you didn't want to. Imagine you are in the middle of a style mode piece (you DO use that still, don't you? ) when the urge to go out front and sing hits you. With a CS, it's doable. Without it, forget it.

And trust me, the fact that YOU didn't use it while you had it is hardly proof of any kind that it isn't usable. Just that you couldn't recognize or use what it CAN do for you. Admittedly, the CS is a feature that rewards the better player. If you don't really NEED your LH for some other task, or play any other instrument well enough to gig with it, I can see the lack of need for it. And if your show revolves around commercial SMF's and karaoke MP3 tracks, well, yes, not much point.

Saying that "I didn't need it, so NO-ONE needs it" is arrogance only you can fail to see. But thanks for chiming once again in on a thread that you have no interest in at all. Other than, of course, to contradict anything I post. I should start a thread that says 'Black is black' just to read how you argue the opposite!

BTW, am I going to have to start quoting everything you post, so you can't snipe away and then remove your posts like over at the Jam thread? A MAN stands by what he writes, for better or worse.