New Video Added by Lionstracs

Posted by: AFG Music

New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/28/09 10:40 AM

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/28/09 01:15 PM

Yawn...

Oh, and MORE stable?

You mean, it didn't used to be? And that now it isn't COMPLETELY stable, either?

If I'm on a gig, it has to be ROCK solid. Period.

BTW, is it still completely outside Lionstracs' budget to hire someone that can demonstrate these features in a way that makes sense to MUSICIANS (you know, your target market ) rather than to computer geeks..? Someone that can play, someone that can speak well, someone that can communicate WHY this stuff is so important?

Oh, and maybe someone that can make it sound MUSICAL, too... You know, just in case someone wanted to do more than widdle around on random presets.

If Lionstracs were hiring an outside marketing consulting firm, you would have probable cause for a lawsuit, but this is you doing it to yourselves If I didn't think the product had potential, I wouldn't care, but it saddens me to see such promise whizzed away with such lackluster marketing. Do you for one minute think that Korg or Yamaha would demonstrate a feature like this so amateurishly?

You want to run with the big dogs, you want to BE a big dog, you have to bark and howl like a big dog. Not whimper and moan like this. For Pete's sake, hire someone that knows how to market and promote a product...
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/28/09 01:59 PM

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/28/09 02:20 PM

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/28/09 02:34 PM

My G70 was bomb-proof from day one. Bugs were not dealbreakers like instability and out of sync waves.

My styles played perfectly, and I was able to gig with it from the day I got it.

There are bugs, and there are BUGS...
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/28/09 02:50 PM

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/28/09 04:06 PM

AFG give up...there only 2 rules with Diki..

1: Diki is ALWAYS right

2: When Diki is wrong, refer to rule 1

Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/28/09 10:18 PM

Maybe the difference is, I don't post about something unless I do feel right? Is there any POINT posting if you aren't? I know you are CONVINCED about your point... You want to explain the difference, Dennis?

I don't know about the VA76... missed that whole generation. Variphrase always felt like a gimmick, of little use for the live, gigging player (too long to load), not enough like a sample, not enough like a loop player, some half assed version of both.

I simply believe that first and foremost, an arranger is a LIVE tool. OK, you CAN use it in the studio, but that's not what it is styled or voiced for. Playing live is it's main reason. Instability is OUT. Sorry about the wave sync thing, I'm just lumping this together with the Audya as products that aren't ready to gig when you buy them. The MS has been out how long? And it has still stability issues?

Anyone who uses computers to power VSTi's knows about the issue of CPU overload, stability issues and the like. So a 'live' product must go out of it's way IF it is based on a CPU/PC architecture. Sure, that adds some considerable benefits, but the other side of the coin is the dynamic nature of CPU load when triggering VSTi's. Plus the CPU is running the entire arranger/live loop/audio file playback...

Closed systems have their drawbacks. But stability is not one of them. If it says it will play 128 voices, it will play 128 voices. No matter WHAT else you are doing. Perfect for live play. In the studio, you can afford to bring your computer to its' knees. Simply render one or two VSTi's and the problem goes away. An ALL live, ALL VSTi system has none of those protections. It HAS to play those voices. No matter WHAT.

Answer me this, Dennis. Are you pushing your MS hard? Running multiple VSTi's all at the same time? Demanding ones like Pianoteq3, etc.? Until you bump the ceiling, how do you know?

You know, I might NOT be right all the time. But I AM willing to talk about issues like this, from a perspective of having used PC/CPU based instruments since they basically were first invented. Is my opinion invalid since I don't own an MS? I own a bunch of VSTi's... that doesn't count?

Anyway, back OT... what do YOU think of those videos, Dennis? Would you buy an arranger based on those? Oh, my bad... you already DID. But answer me this... Do they make a compelling argument to buy an MS to the non-MS owner?
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/28/09 10:55 PM

Hey Diki,

I hope you got the wink at the end of my post...

As for the vids, nah I wouldn't buy off them directly, but they would give me pause for thought as to what the hell this keyboard was all about...To be fair to Dom I do not think they were designed for marketing purposes, I think they are more designed as instructional vids.. Well at at least I HOPE they are not for marketing purposes .

The MS is a GREAT VST and media player...and I have had 10 VST's running at the same time. It handles this part of the operation with ease. I suspect it could run a couple more small ones as well.

I have had to look further afield now though, as I have now been waiting 4 months for operational functions that SHOULD have been working when I bought it but to this day still don't. In its present state it is not a really a live keyboard for a OMB. If I was in a band, it would be perfect.

As I have always said this is a Muse Receptor on steroids. But as for the other stuff, it has not lived up to expectations I'm afraid. It is way too awkward to use in any live situation (OMB wise I mean).
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/28/09 10:59 PM

Oh yeah, I forgot, as for stability its not too bad. Its a long way from rock solid and this I suspect has more to do with teh fatc it is primarily software driven (vst's etc etc).

Like one really annoying thing is sometimes you ahve to turn it on an off about three times before you actually get sound. This is down to what they call in Linux the JACK output configuration tool. Sometimes it just doesn't wanna play .. BUT when it does fire up it is usually okay, although I have to say, the slightest software issue can send it into a tailspin requireing a restart/reboot.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/28/09 11:56 PM

No, sorry... I get this crap so often, I didn't see the wink (it's rarely actually meant, anyway!)...

The thing is, Dennis, as tough as it is to post such a brutal assessment, this is the VERY thing that needs to be aired on SZ, lest someone only gets to read the positive posts. I feel like a lone wolf howling at the moon sometimes, for all the help I get...

Stability in an arranger is job 1. Job 2 AND job 3...

And ease of live use is Job 4. No-one CARES how many VSTi ASIO host can run simultaneously, if it can't run stably and operate live, easily...

And the styles are Job 5... Strike that. Styles are Jobs 1, 2 AND 3... One assumes that stability and ease of use are there from the git go... no arranger should ship without them. I am sorry to hear of your troubles, all stereotypes of me to the contrary, I wanted this thing to work out for you, really I did

BTW if Lionstracs intend these as instructional videos only, where ARE the videos supposed to SELL the darn thing?
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/29/09 04:07 AM

My friend DIKI,

You need to test better MS.

MS is stabile. I play with 8 ASIO VST at same time and I'm using style player + player for MP3 with tempo changing.

When you will understand that you will not blame yourself.

Sorry for my english next time I will use google translate.

BR

MAGICA ALFA
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/29/09 12:13 PM

Hi Dennis. I really wish you would provide a full report on the MS as was the original idea a few months ago . I dont know what happened to kill that thread but as Dikki said we need honest and thorough feedback from a musician that bought the MS based upon the claims of the manufacturer and what they found was great and what they found was not. I dont know if you want to try again but you have already aluded to its strength as a VST host . What about its claims as an arranger ? What about the ability to take yamaha styles and make them sound as good on the MS ? What about the stock sounds it came with ? Have you managed to create any styles on the instrument that rivaled the Korg or yamaha ? What were the problems in terms of live play in a OMB situation that you aluded to ?

Its clear that all we are going to get from Dom is an ever lengthening list of functions that get him excited but what got you excited about the MS and are you still excited ?
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/29/09 01:37 PM

Magica... Fascinating that you respond to me (who doesn't have an MS) but you completely ignore Dennis (who DOES) when it comes to talking about stability.

Where's your explanation to HIM for his problems?

That's right... nowhere.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/29/09 01:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
I have had to look further afield now though, as I have now been waiting 4 months for operational functions that SHOULD have been working when I bought it but to this day still don't. In its present state it is not a really a live keyboard for a OMB. If I was in a band, it would be perfect.

As I have always said this is a Muse Receptor on steroids. But as for the other stuff, it has not lived up to expectations I'm afraid. It is way too awkward to use in any live situation (OMB wise I mean).



Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
Oh yeah, I forgot, as for stability its not too bad. Its a long way from rock solid and this I suspect has more to do with teh fatc it is primarily software driven (vst's etc etc).

Like one really annoying thing is sometimes you ahve to turn it on an off about three times before you actually get sound. This is down to what they call in Linux the JACK output configuration tool. Sometimes it just doesn't wanna play .. BUT when it does fire up it is usually okay, although I have to say, the slightest software issue can send it into a tailspin requiring a restart/reboot.


Comments, Magica?
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/29/09 04:36 PM

Very good AFG Music.

Superwave P8 running inside there also
Sweet man, that's one fantastic VSTi.

Jean Michel Jarre heaven.
Posted by: mr9000

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 05/29/09 05:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
"...Like one really annoying thing is sometimes you have to turn it on an off about three times before you actually get sound. This is down to what they call in Linux the JACK output configuration tool. Sometimes it just doesn't wanna play .. BUT when it does fire up it is usually okay, although I have to say, the slightest software issue can send it into a tailspin requireing a restart/reboot.

Are you talking about the MS here??This is a most horrible of 'Bugs' if so!I would take a PSR1000 hands down if i had to purchase one or the other,if 3 re-boots are sometimes necessary..
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 08:20 AM

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: squeak_D

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 08:43 AM

Geez.., bugs or not.., ANY keyboard that requires the user to reboot several times is a SERIOUS issue. It may not be a bug per say.., but sure as hell an issue that could cause problems for the live musician.

Styles.., sounds, software and UI are always going to be subjective.., but having a SOLID BOOT UP/POWER UP is a MUST.
Posted by: Dnj

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 08:48 AM

MS is a work in progress.....Domenic will work things out as they go along.He will also listen to users & try to implement corrections from feedback which is nice that you can talk to the designer one on one.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-01-2009).]
Posted by: squeak_D

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 09:00 AM

I'm confident Dom will work it out.., but that's not one of those issues you normally see as a "requested OS fix". Usually you find little annoying bugs here and there in the OS.., but the "possibility" that the user may need to reboot several times is a big issue. It's not just a hinder for live use.., but an annoying issue for studio use as well.

I know Dom will get it fixed.., but that issue would def raise some eyebrows.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 06-01-2009).]
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 09:23 AM

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 09:27 AM

You want an honest report on the MS...just ask!!!

The reboot problem that Dennis mentioned, originated from a update of Linus programs and a combination of incorporating a quad core CPU...The culprit was the kernel..Dom recently released a beta test kernel that seems to fix the problem of the "Jack" connection..

The Mediastation's ability to play Yamaha styles via LiveStyler/Lionstracs...solved the problems of yesteryear...The arranger play runs as smooth as most top arrangers, with dedicated buttons and sliders to handle "live play"..

What is missing currently, even with the Qranger...the possibility to edit live ..styles and sequence parts....in real time while performing...but you Yammie guys are use to that..

Roland users are spoiled..

What is unmatched...VST use..loading , playing...and the volume of quality Giga library sounds..

The dual player is also unmatched...It will play audio/ and midi files..with transpose of any file..smoothly..It has an easy search dial or type index..

CDG support is forth coming...And the lyric screen can be as large as you need in the 8" screen..

The Internet connection works great..uses Firefox..

The video play is also excellent...you can watch a video on break..

The assortment of patch capabilities is SUPER..allows you to work without the need of any mixer....The 2 mic inputs (low impedance), have their own effects , eq, and volumes...and there are a pair of audio inputs too (although you won't need a laptop to plug in)..Another keyboard can be plugged in..if you are with another band member...


Diki, you are right, I have not gigged with the MS, but use it all the time in the studio...Yes the few bugs that come up with the changing of OS and Linux updates can be disappointing....but as DNJ said....Dom is right there and solves the problem..even our own individual problem...either immediately..or within a short period of time..


Recap:

The Mediastation is decently stable...as of 2 days ago the new kernel has corrected some of the issues.. Initial boot up is perfect 9 out of 10 times..

The sounds are unsurpassed...For those of us that are lucky to have the boards to A/B them..it is evident the MS shines here...

The style play stands on it's own...with Livestyler..and the Qranger is the master at creating styles...

VST use is simply the best..

The combi mode is great..allowing the use of 8 patches to create the perfect user program...


I hope this enlightens some folks here..that mat be considering the MS...

Support..is simply unmatched by any company...Dom Rules...


Now maybe Dom will send me a check..
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 09:33 AM

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 09:57 AM

Well..I will also explain better about this serial bug caused from the kernel and not from the MS OS...
The big work here is contine update the Linux kernel for a better performance.
here you can see the last kernel 2.6.29-9 at work: http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/xrunsOS32.jpg
0 xruns during play for more than 2 hours and now we are about close at the 0 latency ( by setup normally is only 2.6ms)

The BIG issue is the F....g Dream chip SAM9708, because is SO SLOW to receive midi data and don't have enough midi buffer for the high speed CPU. ( 10+ years dated chipset..and full of digital noise for the new PC generation system)
For make working this ROM chipset, we must reduce at 80Hz the all serial hardware device and the all virtual midi/Network device at full speed, like the Gigasampler and Winealsa.
After this, we have now the new JACK MP ( multi processor)and the new kernel now work with quad core too ( but still some xruns on Winealsa only)

I gave to dennis the link for download the new kernel too ( is also available on GFTP server) for resolve this midi ROM startup issue.
Now this is fixed and in some days is available the new OS 3.2 with many OS updates.

This week we are working on the Multiple external display setups, right now are working up to 6 external display with the all resolution. We have payed Tiago from Xorg for fix again this feature NOT availabe on Ubuntu and now is released: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzI3MQ

When the automatic script is fixed, you can connect up to 6 external VGA/DVI display/TV/HDMI, for make some like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhMErNsEoZw

Of course the MS will be the Master with the 8.4" display, for a total of 7 independent display. ( remember than now one 22" display cost less than 160 USD... )

After the new OS 3.3 with multiple display is released, finally we will add the MP3 CDG Karaoke on the all available displays/TV.

( Then I make a big vacation...I wil stop the developement for some months)
cheers
Posted by: Bachus

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 12:34 PM

@LIONSTRACKS

If you stop development for some time and go on vacation....

Does this mean that you also will not be able to give any support ?

I just hope that you're not on the verge of closing down the project due to the crisis?
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 02:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:

The Mediastation's ability to play Yamaha styles via LiveStyler/Lionstracs...solved the problems of yesteryear...The arranger play runs as smooth as most top arrangers, with dedicated buttons and sliders to handle "live play"..

What is missing currently, even with the Qranger...the possibility to edit live ..styles and sequence parts....in real time while performing...

CDG support is forth coming...And the lyric screen can be as large as you need in the 8" screen..

The assortment of patch capabilities is SUPER..allows you to work without the need of any mixer....

Diki, you are right, I have not gigged with the MS, but use it all the time in the studio...Yes the few bugs that come up with the changing of OS and Linux updates can be disappointing....but as DNJ said....Dom is right there and solves the problem..even our own individual problem...either immediately..or within a short period of time..

The style play stands on it's own...with Livestyler..and the Qranger is the master at creating styles...

VST use is simply the best..

The combi mode is great..allowing the use of 8 patches to create the perfect user program...

Support..is simply unmatched by any company...Dom Rules.



1. Style play is NOT as smooth as top arrangers. No where near it. Ever try the manual bass button Fran, (doesn't work) try the one key button (it doesn't work) try the break button (doesn't work).....And this is even on the native styles..The "dedicated" sliders have to be re-arranged for every Yamaha style loaded. Want a pre-set setup of vol levels for your Yammie styles, forget it, can't be done. And the yamaha styles cannot be edited (on-board) to even just simply delete a part. No edits can be saved to the Yamaha styles.

2. Yep, agree here, absolutley NO editing of Yamaha styles at all. You would need to load up the various editors available for the yamaha and do this on your PC. And then transfer them back to the MS.

3. Yes you do seem to be keen on pushing for the CDG support, for someone who thinks we all use too many crutches, I cannot see why you would need lyric support.. and that is ALL CDG files do..add lyric support to MP3 files.

3.The bug in the Peformance function (this is the tool that takes a snapshot of the panel INCLUDING what data file you are using - be it MP3, Style or midi-) and then saves this to a performance slot for later recall. what happens at present is you can save it, but the second you select any performance..It crashes the MS totally. You HAVE to re-boot. A tad embarrassing in the middle of a set .

4.Because certain people have been pushing for the inclusion of CDG support, I think Dom has decided to fix them both at the same time, but the Performance should have been fixed MONTHS ago. It is a vital " live" tool. It's quite clear Fran has never used this live, and in fact has NO confidence in doing so. Try it Fran then you can talk from experience like I am.

5. Live style play does NOT stand on its own in fact it is far from it. Again from soemone who has not used it "live" and only in your studio, you should not really comment on anything to do with this keyboard in a live situation.

6. Agree 100% - VST use and play is superb and second to none!!!

7.Combi mode is good, I even have some combis using 4 and 5 VSTs (at the same time ) BUT it will not save other data in use, IE mp3 file, midi file or style. So again I say if one is playing in a band and has NO need for using any of those, the MS is perfect as it is.

8.Support is exceptional, so again I agree fully.


There are other things but more of a minor nature, but I just thought I had better clear up the "overly rosy" picture being painted here.

That the MS is a super synth for use in a band or solo keyboard situation is un-challenged.

It is as a style player and total tool for a OMB that it has issues. Whether these things will be addressed remains to be seen. Native style editing with midis is a big issue as a user cannot access vital style creation data, so everything does need to be played live to get the correct bass wraps, get the right transpositions on chordal modes etc etc.

On audio style creation it does fare better. As long as you have patience to find JUST the right loop, beat match them all and lay it all out in a coherent and cohesive manner.

I would say audio creation of styles is the easier of the two and I suspect this is the main focus of it, audio.

BUT I have to caution people who want to try and create styles from a complete audio "song"...In theory this can be done simply by using the markers, but in real terms, the use of these does not work. Quite glitchy and noticeable where the divisions are.

No, the user needs to construct styles from audio loops, of which there are millions, so the styles are inherently better as they are using live instruments for the most part, played by real players. This function alone, in my view, "kills" the Audya.

For this task I believe the MS will be SUPERB, I only say believe as I have, at this stage, only tinkered "around the edges", but having this experience and listened to the excellent audio styles created by another user, Magica Alfa, I am very confident this is the way to go.

I have been busy creating "work-arounds" for the other issues on the MS, but this is settled now and I can start creating audio styles.. I have several thousand loops and samples so it should be fun .

To be honest I was looking at selling the MS, and indeed found a buyer, but this person has been hesitant to go forward and it has given me pause, pause to re-consider selling it at all.. And to perhaps give it one more go.

If the ONLY thing that gets fixed is the Performance function, then for me the MS would be complete..........Oh and the external screen...that'd be cool too

I am not going to do any other sort of review, but if anyone has follow up questions for me, or Fran or Dom...As Fran said you just got to ask....

Dennis
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 02:28 PM

Thanks for your honesty Dennis Warts and all. I am horrified that a fellow musician would allow individuals to spend thousands of pounds on an instrument that they know is intended to be used in a OMB live play situation and cover up its glaring deficiencies. No musician i know would deliberately purchase an arranger that habitually crashed on them in live play. That would be professional suicide. My comments are not aimed at you Dennis.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 03:29 PM

Personally, I think there is FAR too much 'covering up' done on SZ, to better justify one's arranger being 'the best'.

I still am horrified at how much never gets mentioned (even Dennis is only JUST 'fessing up to these live dealbreakers, yet others here have had the MS MUCH longer). I truly thought a place like this should be to HELP each other make informed decisions about gear, not simply act as some kind of unpaid 'keyboard salesman' for companies that see little point in fixing issues no-one will talk about and negatively effect sales (which is what they REALLY care about).

A lot of the time, the FIRST time anyone without a certain arranger hears about any problems is when the factory issues a bugfix update (like T3's new one). Seems the owners don't want to lose face by admitting there ARE issues... This is utter bullsh*t! What does it hurt to inform our members here about these issues? There are STILL compelling reasons why we think what we picked is a great choice (at least for US ), so why try to hide these issues..? These AREN'T our kids or grandkids... so why so reticent to admit they have problems?

If it saves ONE member here from buying something that may not work for him or her, surely it will have served its' purpose... And the more we TALK about bugs, the more likely the factory will address them. Hide the truth, what's their incentive? Every new arranger that comes out, and the excitement that accompanies it, only goes to show that nearly ALL of us are interested in a better arranger... why not try to get the factory to make it the one we already HAVE?
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 03:48 PM

But you see Diki, again here is the difference with Dom and the MS. Things DO get fixed, sometimes without ANY prompting on the part of end-users.

The issues with the MS I have made known for some time, I just chose NOT to make them at SZ.

MS users have their own network (and not just the Lionstracs forum) which is very efficient at identifying issues and having Dom address them and fix them.

My only "beef" is the order in which things are getting fixed/changed. They ALL get fixed in the end.

This divergence of the timeline of updates/fixes is to be expected as we are all different and have different pressures placed upon us.

I am certain Dom is in the same situation, no, MORE SO, than us, as he also has heavy financial pressures to deal with as well which MUST dictate his course of action.

If he had unlimited funds the Media station would already be outselling the major WS's by 2 to 1.

I am by nature, impatient and it is only this that has me at odds with the MS update schedule.

So I am merely disagreeing with the path, NOT the end result.

To give what I consider a good example and one that you will relate to....Had the MS had a chord sequencer that for whatever reason was removed from the OS, because you can speak with not only the creative designer, BUT the CEO of the company you would get it re-instated, with sustained requests. This will NEVER happen with the majors. Where ONE user can effect a change on a total OS.

It is perhaps the greatest of all the Media Station features, and one that does not get enough recognition.

Dennis
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 04:41 PM

Wow... that's some serious problems there Miden.

Lol... it's a classic Lionstrac story though. While Dom is working on adding support for 7 monitors, the keyboard can't even run a Style properly.

Refund and run. Buy yourself a Neko, they work perfectly.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 04:42 PM

My Chord Sequencer was never removed from the OS of an arranger that had it...

It was merely removed from subsequent models (that had quite different OS's). A hardware arranger does what it does from the day you buy it. Bugs are fixed, to a certain extent, but one of the drawbacks, that I consider that 'open' arrangers suffer from is a certain degree of acceptance by customers of issues that may or may not (or may at some indeterminate time in the future) get fixed, but definitely impact it's usefulness at the time of purchase.

Add to that the issue that, as newer CPU OS's and hardware gradually get added, there is the problem of new problems getting ADDED as new kernels, drivers, OS's and the like get updated. Even in the studio this is an inconvenience (or more, depending on the level of client you work for), but live it is a catastrophe waiting to happen.

While Dom's customer service is second to none, his very lack of size also has it's dark side... that revenues are not sufficient to do the style and soundset development that other arranger companies can afford. One step forward, one step back.

Me, I think I prefer the more 'closed' approach... give me an arranger ALREADY voiced and styled well, with NO dealbreaker bugs at all, and if it gets around to fixing some of the smaller niggles, cool... but if it doesn't, I've still got something bombproof for live use. If an 'open' arranger provides this, so much the better But trading flexibility for reliability for the live musician seems a poor choice.
Posted by: John DiLeo

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 04:54 PM

Why does this diki guy continue to bash the mediastation? .....it should be praised with the wonderful technology it is showing on the market. I wish I understood more of it, but all this negativity all the time is getting tired & boring & doesn't help anyone. People have spent their hard earned money on this unit and don't want to hear it get knocked by someone who doesn't even have one. Good luck to all you MS owners its exciting to see what Dom will do next.

Take Care
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 05:13 PM

I spent my hard earned money on a G70... big deal! I am the FIRST to want to let anyone know if there are problems with it.

For Pete's sake, are you so insecure in your purchase of this product that you don't want to HEAR any drawbacks to it...? Oh, that's right... you don't even HAVE one! Why don't YOU buy one, and then praise the instability and poor operation as an OMB arranger? Even though they exist, as owned up by an actual OWNER? Jeez... why yank MY chain? Surely Dennis is the culprit, for letting the cat out of the bag that the MS is neither stable, nor ready for OMB usage live? When these are fixed, THEN it deserves praise for being a great arranger. That is, if you discount the styles Me, I don't buy something for what technology is inside. I buy it because of how well it WORKS.

But it's just so much more FUN to bait me, isn't it?

Enlighten us... tell us how you use YOUR MS live. Tell us there are no issues. Tell us that it works perfectly every time. Tell us it's the best arranger you ever bought... Tell Dennis that he is WRONG, not me...!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 06-01-2009).]
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 05:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
You want an honest report on the MS...just ask!!!

The reboot problem that Dennis mentioned, originated from a update of Linus programs and a combination of incorporating a quad core CPU...The culprit was the kernel..Dom recently released a beta test kernel that seems to fix the problem of the "Jack" connection..

The Mediastation's ability to play Yamaha styles via LiveStyler/Lionstracs...solved the problems of yesteryear...The arranger play runs as smooth as most top arrangers, with dedicated buttons and sliders to handle "live play"..

What is missing currently, even with the Qranger...the possibility to edit live ..styles and sequence parts....in real time while performing...but you Yammie guys are use to that..

Roland users are spoiled..

What is unmatched...VST use..loading , playing...and the volume of quality Giga library sounds..

The dual player is also unmatched...It will play audio/ and midi files..with transpose of any file..smoothly..It has an easy search dial or type index..

CDG support is forth coming...And the lyric screen can be as large as you need in the 8" screen..

The Internet connection works great..uses Firefox..

The video play is also excellent...you can watch a video on break..

The assortment of patch capabilities is SUPER..allows you to work without the need of any mixer....The 2 mic inputs (low impedance), have their own effects , eq, and volumes...and there are a pair of audio inputs too (although you won't need a laptop to plug in)..Another keyboard can be plugged in..if you are with another band member...


Diki, you are right, I have not gigged with the MS, but use it all the time in the studio...Yes the few bugs that come up with the changing of OS and Linux updates can be disappointing....but as DNJ said....Dom is right there and solves the problem..even our own individual problem...either immediately..or within a short period of time..


Recap:

The Mediastation is decently stable...as of 2 days ago the new kernel has corrected some of the issues.. Initial boot up is perfect 9 out of 10 times..

The sounds are unsurpassed...For those of us that are lucky to have the boards to A/B them..it is evident the MS shines here...

The style play stands on it's own...with Livestyler..and the Qranger is the master at creating styles...

VST use is simply the best..

The combi mode is great..allowing the use of 8 patches to create the perfect user program...


I hope this enlightens some folks here..that mat be considering the MS...

Support..is simply unmatched by any company...Dom Rules...


Now maybe Dom will send me a check..


Some clatification, although I don't think it is necessary..

My statement that the MS arranger stands on it's own...stands!!!

It has the meat and potato features..Key start, intros, endings, fills and velocity activated fills...That is enough to stand on it's own..

My friend Dennis must be having a bad day..

Getting on my case because I use lyrics.. I already mentioned a while back that was my crutch...so what..

And Dennis , i was just passing the CDG info on..in fact it was not "my gotta have." features at all...
In fact I never use MP3's when I perform as a solo...only for break tunes...

With the band, we rely on MP3's..

As you may be aware the CDG feature had to be completed before the "new" performance feature could be completed...to save Dom extra work..

I stand behind all my comments mentioned...and the comments I am expressing now....

Spalding if your remark is for my behalf...speak up.. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img]

I have not painted a rosy color on the MS, but you can bet there will be a rosy color in it's future...

James we have MS owners that also have a Neko...I am sure you can buy it from them...they prefer the better keyboard (in their opinion)..the MS...

Any questions that need to be asked...just ask, but don't beat around the bush... [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 06:20 PM

Yes Fran, it was my bad as far as the lyrics go...It ws someone else I was thinking of, and I recalled it incorrectly, so apologies on that one.

And yes I DO know about the Performance/CDG synergy..I knew it about 5 weeks ago or earlier. And I DO understand the reasoning behind it. I just happen to disagree because I think the performance function is VITAL to live play, I do not have the same conviction for CDG files.

In all my posts you will find I have not wavered from that, I UNDERSTAND but disagree (very respectfully) with the update path. As I said in my post we are all different and have different pressures and constraints. I fully empathise with Dom in that he has a mountain of these, and people clamouring for this and that, to deal with everyday.

All we have to do is enjoy the keyboard!!

To reiterate, I am only stating my disagreement (not argument) with the path, not the end result.

And yes we are on the same page as far as the future of the MS goes 100%.

As for the Neko and the new toy from Roland, imho they are not only NOT in the same ballpark but in a different town.

Although I THINK there may be a bigger brother to the one posted by James, I am not sure, so maybe it will have a few more bells and whistles.

But to you Fran it was NOTHING personal at all...Please don't read it as such. I just say what I think in the best way I can. At times it CAN be construed as a direct criticism, but it is not meant that way.

Believe me if I wanted to criticise someone that person would be left in NO DOUBT

Now for OS 3.3.......
Dennis
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 06:44 PM

Quote:
James we have MS owners that also have a Neko...I am sure you can buy it from them...they prefer the better keyboard (in their opinion)..the MS...

Any questions that need to be asked...just ask, but don't beat around the bush.


I'm not beating around the bush, I'm actually happy now that I finally “Get It” after years following the developments of this keyboard.

I always wondered why there was such secrecy surrounding this keyboard and a complete lack of Audio Demo's worthy of even being heard.

The answer is it's a Lemon and nobody likes admitting that they got caught out.

So my final words on the subject of the Mediastation “ever” will be, shame on anyone who knew of all these problems and ever reported them on the forum. If the keyboard is not playable live and reliable it should have been reported long long ago..

The End.
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 07:10 PM

James ..why the ruffled feathers..

I just reported another MS owners' opinion...
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 07:12 PM

. wrong post

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 08-01-2009).]
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 07:13 PM

BTW: report on this forum?

The only potential SZ buyer, would be the S900 replacement..Audya and Mediastation are out of reach for most financially and patience wise..
Posted by: Dnj

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/01/09 07:17 PM

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum29/HTML/002604.html
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 12:00 AM

Look, we've actually got Dom, the developer, here by simply TALKING about the issues... He's talking about the issue (at least, one of them), when he SURE wasn't here talking about it before (while it was happening).

This is what happens simply being willing to discuss things here... enough manufacturer attention they come back and talk to us about it. Not to JUST those that own them, but to those who are keeping a weather eye out for how this 'work in progress' is coming along...

And all it took was someone making public the problem. It didn't really hurt, now did it? Just imagine... a place on the web where people could go to not just hear about the GOOD things in a potential arranger purchase, but all of the drawbacks, too... Then let the chips fall where they may. I've got no problem with anybody buying anything... just with potential problems being 'hush-hush' on a cross manufacturer public forum, and those potential buyers being ill-informed.

"Cause I might be one of those buyers one day...
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 12:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Wow... that's some serious problems there Miden.

Lol... it's a classic Lionstrac story though. While Dom is working on adding support for 7 monitors, the keyboard can't even run a Style properly.

Refund and run. Buy yourself a Neko, they work perfectly.


Yes, buy a OL and work always perfect.. http://forum.openlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=1133

Then when someone will post there one big issue, OL will move it from the pubblic forum.
register and login and then you can find TON of basic shame issue too.
If they can not make stable working standard Windows OS and application, what can happen if they develope some propietary tools?

All this features you can make in one simple 400 USD laptop + M-Audio midi controller keyb too...
Let me see if you are able to running the Livestyler + Forte + Kontakt...and then let me see in Live gig if you are able to use it ( without crash of course)

Like Fran said..maybe just someone there have the money for replace to one S900 or a used keyb...

You have waiting 4 years for the Audya and still you have to wait xxxx for the styles editor or sampler upgrade.
T3 cost a lot of money and still can not play one poor Mp3 or loading 1Gb RAM sampler in about 1 hour..they just fixed the sustain pedal for the sampler...OMG...I tough Yamaha was perfect...

About the MS performace tool, I told a lot of time.
This feature was good working before.
we have now integrated the 8 multiple asio patch, new players engine with playlist, Qranger 4.1, livestyler and many new others features.
Untill the Mp3 CDG karaoke on multiple display is added, we will not update and fix the performance system.
When the all new engines are running and full working, we can update the Performance system that BURN the all application in one key preset.

@BACHUS
I have also a family and I make the vacation when I like and where I like.
My software developer make the same too, july and august is NOT the time for develope software, thats all.
remember also that the all company in Italy from midle july to end august are totally closed too, so...where is the problem?

I'm always online with my Apple Iphone and Asus EEPC and I can support online everywhere.
Do you have a MS?? No...then where is your problem?
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 05:18 AM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 05:45 AM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: squeak_D

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 06:32 AM

AFG.., I would say the biggest hold back for the MS in the arranger community (and def within the arranger community in the United States).., is OUT OF BOX appeal.

Yes.., there has been a lot of MS bashing here over the years.., and even Dom has been very upfront IMO on some of the issues with the MS too. However.., arranger players 99.99% of the time are looking for that OUT OF BOX unit. Any reasonable person here can clearly see the MS has some serious capabilities (there's no question about that considering the MS is a computer with an amazing custom built midi controller surrounding it).

Where the MS is really hurting is in its PRESET STYLES. Most arranger players ARE NOT looking for a keyboard that OUT OF THE BOX requires a great deal of CONVERTING STYLES from other makers. More work on the MS is placed on CONVERTING STYLES from other makers (using the work that has already been done by another companies style developers, whos blood and sweat went into creating those great styles) rather than Lionstracs actually creating THEIR OWN styles that are at the same quality level of the major brands out there.

The average arranger player (without offending anyone) isn't a style writer. They're looking for an arranger to have strong presets out of the box that require minimal editing (should there be a need to edit a style).

I've always said that given the POWER of the MS and where it currently sits with its features, that the MS is being MARKETED WRONG.

The MS is an AMAZING open source SYNTH/WORKSTATION with the ability to run multiple VST software programs that "soncially" allows the MS as a SYNTH/WORKSTATION to go places where a hardware unit cannot take you.

Because of the quality of the MS's PRESET styles and how much work it takes from the USER in having to CONVERT STYLES FROM OTHER MAKERS the MS as an ARRANGER is SECONDARY. I say it's secondary because for the MS to function using its arranger capabilites as the units PRIMARY then OUT OF THE BOX it MUST without question have PRESET STYLES that compete with the big makers. At this point the MS does not have this.., and requires YOU the USER to do a great deal of work in converting styles from other companies

Until Dom gets a "style development" team together that is capable of producing high quality PRESET styles that sound as good or better than the competition.., then the MS as an arranger will ALWAYS be seen as SECONDARY to the arranger community.

ARRANGERS ARE ABOUT STYLES. A TOP END ARRANGER OUT OF THE BOX MUST HAVE TOP QUALITY STYLES "WRITTEN AND DEVELOPED" BY THE COMPANY WHO MAKES THE KEYBOARD. The MS relies heavily on the work already done by others.

If Dom changed his marketing of the MS and pushed it for what its OBVIOUS strong points are (and that's a killer open source synth/workstation) then the MS would get a lot of attention. If Dom got a good style development team together that could produce styles of the same quality you find on other TOTL arrangers that sound good OUT OF THE BOX then the arranger community would be looking at it with BOTH eyes open rather then looking at the MS with one eye open and the other shut.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 06-02-2009).]
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 08:39 AM

Squeak, Out of the box arranger has been answered on the MS.

The combined effort of Livestyler/Lionstracs has given a style play that will make most folks content..

It is designed to play any Yamaha style...so choice of styles is answered with the vast collection available..It gives us the intros, endings, fills..that the Yamaha are capable of playing...It also has the keystart, and velocity switch to fill..Variations can be selected with or without a fill....Volume levels of the style parts can be adjusted in live play...I have found the Yamaha styles with the XG VST to be balanced with no need to change volume levels of the style parts..

I also use a Yamaha xg VST for sound source..so you have the Yamaha style play and a quality VST sound source...

For those that desire to "roll their own"..Qranger is the master editor..with little limitations....

Arranger needs are provided now with the 2009 MS...and they work..well..


What remains to be finished...as Dom , Dennis, Alfa and myself have mentioned...The CDG feature and the Performance features....There is no need to do any further development with arranger section..You can keep it as basic ..or develop your own elaborate styles..

The Livestyler addition is more than enough for me..and I am sure others..too..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 06-02-2009).]
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 09:16 AM

Correct Fran!
The missing feature always request are only the CDG Mp3 on multiple display and then update the Preformance system that burn as Presets the whole MS pannel.
After this last two features, I think that the MS have the all tools that you need.

About the arranger:
Now on MS are available 2 arranger engines:
1) livestyler: integrated on MS OS and full controlled the arranger section.
IF there need some updates and features, just stress Norber and NOT Lionstracs, this because we use the native binary windows version and we can NOT edit/update NOTHING.
IF you don't like the YXG-50 VST, just open the midi I/O and remap the Livestyler to another sounds device or just load another VST, where is the problem?

2) Qranger: is already full integrated API on MS side pannel, we don't have to develope nothing more.
Qranger is based on Qtractor engine: http://qtractor.sourceforge.net/qtractor-index.html
Qtractor is still in progress developement and now is also full controlled by the Bheringer BCF2000.
When Rui Capella update the Qtractor, automatically is updated the qranger too and a new package will be released.

I will spend my time now for complete the 3 new totally GIGA products....
In october you will see some nice....
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 09:46 AM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 01:11 PM

Look, I'm sorry, but anyone who has struggled to make a converted style sound as good on their 'closed' arranger as it did on the native one it came from already knows...

It is a frustrating, difficult, and often impossible task. After MUCH work, I have few conversions that really compete with the best of the ROM styles in my G70... Some get close, some still get used because I don't have anything close to that style, but it is rare that a conversion (unless it is some bog stupidly simple legacy style from years ago) satisfies the way the good ROM ones do. There is simply too great a connection between the data for the Part, and the sound/s it is played on. Velocity responses, sample crossover points, timbral content, envelope response, all of these things have a VERY pronounced way of affecting how you play a sound. Now take that playing, and use a different (but similar) sound, on a different synth, with different characteristics, and you end up with a totally different sounding performance. Now multiply that by ALL the tracks in the style, and multiply it MUCH more by the drumkit, where each and every sound in the kit has all the above problems...

That is the task you are faced with when getting an MS. Only way around it is to use either it's ROM styles (not exactly stellar, by comparison to T3, etc.) or Live Styler, in which case, you are using only legacy PSR styles from a decade ago, into a soundfont of legacy Yamaha sounds. In other words, you are using a TOTL arranger to sound like a MOTL PSR from over ten years ago... And if you want to route those into better sounding VSTi's, you are faced with the 'translation dilemma' that you have doing ANY conversion on ANY arranger.

The proof of the pudding, for me, comes via the complete lack of much user music that uses these tools. You would think, by now, that IF it was possible to use Live-Styler and connect easily to quality VSTi's for a better than PSR experience playing Yamaha styles, the web would have EXPLODED with happy owners going 'LOOK! It finally works!'. To my mind, I haven't even seen the FACTORY manage this trick, yet. The Live-Styler demos up there certainly didn't make me want to sell my G70 and go out and buy one of these... If I wanted to sound like a 10 year old PSR, I can go buy a used one for about $100

I already KNOW you can get great RH sounds using VSTi's. But primarily, I buy an arranger for how good the STYLE parts sound. The thought of playing a GIGAsampler piano part on an emulation of a PSR doing the styles doesn't make any SENSE.

Yamaha doesn't sell the T3 devoid of great styles and go 'use PA2Xpro conversions (and do them yourselves)'. Ketron doesn't try to sell the Audya by going 'program your OWN audio styles'... They know the market all too well. In what, four years or more of coming here, Dom has STILL to recognize this aspect of his customers. He wants US to change, not HIM...

Ketron users are apparently happily snapping up a new, very expensive arranger that can't edit ANYTHING AT ALL, yet... But the styles sound AMAZING! That is what arranger owners want. Do THAT, and then add all the other stuff, people will plow over you in the rush to buy one! Don't, and you have to start pretending it is a WS and sell to a totally different market...
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 03:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:
AFG.., I would say the biggest hold back for the MS in the arranger community (and def within the arranger community in the United States).., is OUT OF BOX appeal.

Yes.., there has been a lot of MS bashing here over the years.., and even Dom has been very upfront IMO on some of the issues with the MS too. However.., arranger players 99.99% of the time are looking for that OUT OF BOX unit. Any reasonable person here can clearly see the MS has some serious capabilities (there's no question about that considering the MS is a computer with an amazing custom built midi controller surrounding it).

Where the MS is really hurting is in its PRESET STYLES. Most arranger players ARE NOT looking for a keyboard that OUT OF THE BOX requires a great deal of CONVERTING STYLES from other makers. More work on the MS is placed on CONVERTING STYLES from other makers (using the work that has already been done by another companies style developers, whos blood and sweat went into creating those great styles) rather than Lionstracs actually creating THEIR OWN styles that are at the same quality level of the major brands out there.

The average arranger player (without offending anyone) isn't a style writer. They're looking for an arranger to have strong presets out of the box that require minimal editing (should there be a need to edit a style).

I've always said that given the POWER of the MS and where it currently sits with its features, that the MS is being MARKETED WRONG.

The MS is an AMAZING open source SYNTH/WORKSTATION with the ability to run multiple VST software programs that "soncially" allows the MS as a SYNTH/WORKSTATION to go places where a hardware unit cannot take you.

Because of the quality of the MS's PRESET styles and how much work it takes from the USER in having to CONVERT STYLES FROM OTHER MAKERS the MS as an ARRANGER is SECONDARY. I say it's secondary because for the MS to function using its arranger capabilites as the units PRIMARY then OUT OF THE BOX it MUST without question have PRESET STYLES that compete with the big makers. At this point the MS does not have this.., and requires YOU the USER to do a great deal of work in converting styles from other companies

Until Dom gets a "style development" team together that is capable of producing high quality PRESET styles that sound as good or better than the competition.., then the MS as an arranger will ALWAYS be seen as SECONDARY to the arranger community.

ARRANGERS ARE ABOUT STYLES. A TOP END ARRANGER OUT OF THE BOX MUST HAVE TOP QUALITY STYLES "WRITTEN AND DEVELOPED" BY THE COMPANY WHO MAKES THE KEYBOARD. The MS relies heavily on the work already done by others.

If Dom changed his marketing of the MS and pushed it for what its OBVIOUS strong points are (and that's a killer open source synth/workstation) then the MS would get a lot of attention. If Dom got a good style development team together that could produce styles of the same quality you find on other TOTL arrangers that sound good OUT OF THE BOX then the arranger community would be looking at it with BOTH eyes open rather then looking at the MS with one eye open and the other shut.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 06-02-2009).]


Actually the opposite is true. Just follow all the Audya discussions and you hear the cry for detail editing of styles.
And the lack of detail editing is a deal breaker and that should cause the price of the Audya to be less.
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 03:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Squeak, Out of the box arranger has been answered on the MS.

The combined effort of Livestyler/Lionstracs has given a style play that will make most folks content..

It is designed to play any Yamaha style...so choice of styles is answered with the vast collection available..It gives us the intros, endings, fills..that the Yamaha are capable of playing...It also has the keystart, and velocity switch to fill..Variations can be selected with or without a fill....Volume levels of the style parts can be adjusted in live play...I have found the Yamaha styles with the XG VST to be balanced with no need to change volume levels of the style parts..

I also use a Yamaha xg VST for sound source..so you have the Yamaha style play and a quality VST sound source...

For those that desire to "roll their own"..Qranger is the master editor..with little limitations....

Arranger needs are provided now with the 2009 MS...and they work..well..


What remains to be finished...as Dom , Dennis, Alfa and myself have mentioned...The CDG feature and the Performance features....There is no need to do any further development with arranger section..You can keep it as basic ..or develop your own elaborate styles..

The Livestyler addition is more than enough for me..and I am sure others..too..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 06-02-2009).]


From an actual user of an MS.

If I was going to buy an MS, I would more listen to you than to others who bad talk the MS. Because the ones who have very little positive things to say about the MS do not even own one and have never played one in person.
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 03:38 PM

As a Media Station owner who DOES use it live, not just as a hobby keyboard in a studio, I can honestly say what Fran says is sorta kinda true.

You can do those things he said, BUT everytime you re-load that style you have to do the same tweaks everytime.

They cannot be saved, so not really for live use. At home where you can have 5 minutes between songs to set up the LS "just right" to set up the vol sliders "just right" it is okay.

Let me stress ...THIS IS NOT THE FAULT OF DOM OR THE MEDIA STATION... this is as Dom says an issue with Live Styler itself and as such needs to be taken up with Norbert.

Fran seems to think people are laying the blame at Doms door (which they are not), so thinks he needs to defend Dom instead of laying it out as it is, rather than glossing it.

You see I will praise the Media Station where it deserves it , and as readers will know I have done this many times. But I will not skip over any shortcomings I see.

Fran if everything is so good and great, WHY do you not use the MS live as I do and as other owners do? You have expressed a strong lack of confidence in using the MS live, why not admit it?

The Media Station I will say time and time again is a great instrument, its VST handling and audio handling via the dual player and the Qranger/Qtractor is superb.

Using Giga instruments is great. Being able to create your own GM soundbank of ANY giga instrument is great. Be able to combine multi VST's in one patch (combi), great.

Having a superb keybed, just "made" for piano samples, great.

Having three way eq on audio output in REAL TIME, great.

Having a great audio elastique engine for pitch shifting audio, great...

Being able to create superb AUDIO based styles is great.

And I could go on an on......

The ONE thing that is average is the midi style department. Thats it.

The sound boot issue has been fixed, Dom has indicated the other one issue (perf) is to be fixed in the near future. Including external display support which will allow all editing to be done using a 19" (or whatever size you like), monitor.

Once this final 3.3 OS is here, I have got to say the Media Station will have "arrived".

Dennis

PS: @ Fran...Fran when someone makes an apology it is courteous to at least acknowledge it. That you didn't says a lot.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 04:10 PM

That's a pretty good summary, Dennis. Great VSTi WS, lousy arranger.

I am sorry, but those there calling me a 'basher' simply are being hyperbolic, or haven't really READ what they half remember from my prior posts. I have ALWAYS said the MS is a revolutionary keyboard. I have always praised it's VSTi capabilities. I have always acknowledged that the MS (or at least, its' concept) is the 'future' of arrangers (and keyboards in general). I have said many, many times that, were the MS to be a great ARRANGER as we currently know them, and added it's VSTi capabilities, I would have had one LONG ago.

But I already have a VSTi rig at my studio for recordings, have an arranger that does most meat and potatoes sounds more than well enough for live use, and operates as an ARRANGER infinitely better than the MS. The only reason I've been so vocal about the MS is in the apparently vain hope that one day, maybe next year in Jerusalem, whenever, Dom might start to realize what arranger players (in the vast majority) actually NEED (not just want) in an arranger that we take out and gig live on...

BTW, I don't want to hear another word attacking me for keeping focused on operational aspects of the MS, when actual OWNERS have now public issues. I am NOT making this stuff up. Don't need to. Never have. Never would. Dennis has finally brought to the light of day several issues that on a Yamaha or Roland, would be cause for a recall or outright rebellion by its' users. Fran admits he CAN'T use his MS live. What more do you guys want? Blood?

The MS is a four year 'work in progress' that STILL cannot compete with the 'closed' arrangers that Dom so prominently used to bash... Forgive me for being skeptical about how long this is going to take before you can FINALLY take it to the gig with as much confidence as a PSR...

Imagine this, if you will. Take your current arranger, and cover up the ROM styles section. Empty out ALL your favorite user styles. Go and get a bunch of styles for another arranger. Use conversion software so that will sort of play on your arranger. Now edit them ALL so they sound as good as your (now unavailable) ROM styles if you can. Now go and gig (but you can't edit any of the Parts at the gig, even mute them).

Doesn't sound like much FUN, does it?
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 04:47 PM

Actually in a way Diki, I am not the one to ask about styles, as I only use them for about 25% of what I do.

BUT I am about to embark upon audio style creation from real player audio loops, guitars, basses, drums etc etc, so hopefully in the near future I can post some examples of where I think the arranger part of the MS does truly shine....

Midi styles are dead as far as I am concerned. Audio is the way to go and the Media Station is the ONLY keyboard I know of that can do this.

BTW I DIDN'T say Fran wouldn't use it live, just that he wasn't confident about it.....

Dennis
Posted by: Dnj

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 04:56 PM

At least with the MS years from now it will still be up to date & you dont have to buy other KB's as it's a constantly changing platform which is a great idea in itself IMO...as technology changes so will your unit.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 05:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
At least with the MS years from now it will still be up to date & you dont have to buy other KB's as it's a constantly changing platform which is a great idea in itself IMO...as technology changes so will your unit.


True enough... it wasn't ready for prime time when it came out what, four years ago, it isn't ready now, and with Dom's shift in emphasis over to it's WS strengths, maybe it won't be ready in another four years too... So, in a way, it has ALWAYS been up-to-date

There isn't ONE person using this thing as primarily an arranger on this forum, despite a few actually owning them. The day it finally DOES manage to be ready for prime time, that will be the day it deserves our attention as ARRANGER players. Until then, it primarily serves as a cautionary tale for those who's enthusiasm for new technology exceeds their ability to discern whether it will do the job they WANT it to...

BTW, can anyone link me to any user music using the new Qranger audio features that you would consider 'jaw-dropping'? I'm still trying to find out if anyone (including the factory players) has managed to coax something useful out of this, yet...

Sorry Dennis, but for arranger use (in other words, styles that are usable for a multitude of songs, not just the one specific one) I see a lot of problems with using audio instead of MIDI... for starters, how do you deal with the issue of 'wrap-around'? All MIDI arranger parts can be pitch limited (just like a real instrument is) into a preset range. How do you get an audio loop to do that? How do you get a sampled bassline to deal with slash chords? And where exactly do you find a good selection of playing loops that cover all possible chord types and inversions?

You see, at the same time that GIGA sized MIDI instruments get pretty close to indistinguishable from real ones, and GB sized drum kit libraries (with MIDI files of real drummers triggering them) become very hard to tell they are not loops (before anyone starts arguing these points again, can I suggest you actually GO to some of these sites and listen to the demos), and Guitar Modes that get closer and closer to the real thing, arranger manufacturers start moving away from them, and embrace a technology that offers NO customizability or flexibility, and reduce us once again to preset ROMpler arrangers like we had fifteen, twenty years ago...

Sure, importing a drum loop library is pretty easy, if one can find one that a) provides enough variations and fills to compete with a MIDI arranger (doable, to a certain degree) and b) has a selection of playing conducive to an Intro or Ending (MUCH harder), but where do you find matching bass grooves, string lines, horn lines, not to mention guitar parts, in the myriad of chord types you might need. Sure, if you KNOW in advance (a songstyle, e.g.) what chords you need, you MIGHT be good to go. But a style needs the ability to play any chord if it is to be anything more than a jumped up song specific SMF...

Look at the hoops that Ketron have had to jump thorough, to make their guitar loop library useful. Basically, they HAD to use MIDI (at least in a half-assed way) to cover the holes, and failed miserably (IMO) to integrate the two well. Now, extrapolate that to basslines, piano parts, whatever you DO want to do with audio, your task gets pretty tough...

And, if you are using an audio loop for everything, where do you find libraries of these in all needed chords, modes and transpositions. Remember, you transpose a loop, you've transposed EVERYTHING within that loop. MIDI allows the guitar chord to transpose differently to the bassline, and have the horn line transpose differently to THAT... Far more musical, IMO.

I'm looking forward to hearing some of your Qranger stuff in action, but feel a little skeptical for it's general usefulness, not to mention the time it must be taking...
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 05:45 PM

Dennis, fortunately for me..I am using the original Tyros2 styles with the YXG50 VST..the style balance is good and I have no need to tweak them..so no need to re-save them...Possibly the other Yamaha group styles may not fair as well..Have you tried the Yamaha Tyros styles I sent you?

As for not using the MS "live"...I prefer my G70, because it offers me more for my solo work..Mostly because all my sequences are "Make up" ready and transpose via system exclusive...and the G70 harmonizer is a must in my solo work too..

With the trio, I could use the MS...now..We use primarily MP3/wave tracks, that I recorded with my Roland boards..
We also use a handful of sequences , that I will also record as MP3's ..soon...

Arranger..I have no need for with the band..and the worst scenario..would be a special request for a guest singer that I need to back up...and I can always scratch that...I do what I want..
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 06:02 PM

If you sent some I don't think I ever got them..In any case I have used a Tyros and a Tyros II and I did not like the style balances on either of them either.

I suppose, again, its down to personal choices. I really do not like a lot of the mixes preset by the Yamaha factory on factory styles, same goes for Korg and Ketron too, so tweaking a style even just to mute a track is vital to me.

Good to see you are to adopt the MP3 method. I did so ages ago because I got tired of having to re-set all my midis whenever I got a new keyboard. You see I NEVER use Gm. Soudns are way too boring as are GS and XG.

So I recorded my midis using the Motif ES and XS racks.

I am now moving on to recording new mp3 tracks using my new VST guitars, basses and drums, so its the same but the VST's sound even better than the motif, and thats saying something.

Dennis
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 06:10 PM

Thing is, Dennis, what's the POINT of changing to a new keyboard, if all your backing tracks remain the same? If you think 'Drum part, Bass part, Guitar part, pad part, string line, horn line, etc.' and then you play one part, maybe two in realtime, you have changed at most 20-30% of your show... And have missed out on whatever better and newer the new keyboard could add to the backing parts (one presumes its' drums and basses etc. are better than your legacy gear)...

Sure, it's a boatload of work to do every time, but every time you do it, ALL your show gets better, not just your RH sounds...
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 06:21 PM

I have been recording and using MP's with the band for 8 years..nothing new to me..
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 06:43 PM

I didn't realize the Military Police were so involved in your show, Fran...

You get time off for good behavior?
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 06:49 PM

That's because "3" is a crowd
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 07:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Thing is, Dennis, what's the POINT of changing to a new keyboard, if all your backing tracks remain the same? If you think 'Drum part, Bass part, Guitar part, pad part, string line, horn line, etc.' and then you play one part, maybe two in realtime, you have changed at most 20-30% of your show... And have missed out on whatever better and newer the new keyboard could add to the backing parts (one presumes its' drums and basses etc. are better than your legacy gear)...

Sure, it's a boatload of work to do every time, but every time you do it, ALL your show gets better, not just your RH sounds...


Diki I have found nothing to beat the Motif ES/XS, especially guitars and basses, on ANYTHING - WS or arranger. Apart from a few VST's and even then not many of them.

My only reason for changing keyboards is for a few muck around styles and operational aspects. IE anything that will improve the ease (and gear) with which I can do things.

Still have not found that Nirvana yet, but the MS is getting really close. PA2x was also very close, operationally, but the guitars (electric) and particularly the basses totally suck. Plus some other things were lacking as well, for me.

Dennis
Posted by: vagro

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/02/09 09:48 PM

C'mon Domenico! You've been taking your time to write in this thread instead of answering my mails at least to let me know you received them. You offer me a Mediastation, I show my interest and you don't take care of a potential customer.
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/03/09 06:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by vagro:
C'mon Domenico! You've been taking your time to write in this thread instead of answering my mails at least to let me know you received them. You offer me a Mediastation, I show my interest and you don't take care of a potential customer.


I never get a reply from you.
I have now edited my server spam filter, try to resend me the email, i wrote you today too.

I get also some emails request from others, they asked me why I made a offer to Vagro..

for your know..give 2 MS developement in buenos Aries, from my first starting developers.
All the OS now is developed here, around Europe, so this 2 MS are there waiting someone that will buy for a special price, that's all.
wil cost me to much to shipping back, shipment the MS to argentinia cost around 900USD + the all TAX!
Posted by: vagro

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/03/09 09:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
I never get a reply from you.
I have now edited my server spam filter, try to resend me the email, i wrote you today too.

I get also some emails request from others, they asked me why I made a offer to Vagro..

for your know..give 2 MS developement in buenos Aries, from my first starting developers.
All the OS now is developed here, around Europe, so this 2 MS are there waiting someone that will buy for a special price, that's all.
wil cost me to much to shipping back, shipment the MS to argentinia cost around 900USD + the all TAX!


My public apologies then. I was getting quite anxious to know the conditions of the unit available here. I already sent you a mail to your accounts from my two accounts. Sorry again.
Victor
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/03/09 10:39 AM

You want nirvana, Dennis? If you are going to use MP3's, why not simply get a REAL guitarist and bass player (and drummer too!) to come in and PLAY the tunes. Talk about realism! It'll blow your XS away

If your chops are decent, maybe you could even TRADE recording time with them and it not cost you that much. And if they are decently prepared, you ought to get ten tunes or more out of an hour session. I know you can't program that many tunes in that time!

I think, were I to go the MP3 route, that I would want to use something that a machine COULDN'T better...
Posted by: squeak_D

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/03/09 12:47 PM

I still think the MS is a great keyboard.., and always have been behind Dom on this unit.., I still feel it's not marketed to the right group of keyboard players.

Just out of curiousity though..., Fran mentions (unless I read it wrong) using an XG VST to drive those styles. Curious about something......, on a "state of the art TOTL arranger" such as this, are you going forward or backwards using that type of sound set to drive these styles?

The Media-Station is a step or two forward.., but you take 5 steps backwards when you use that old dated XG soundset to drive styles. If that's the sound you're after.., save yourself the time and money and just buy a bloody PSR.

If Dom had the bills to hire a very experienced group of style writers the MS would be catching a lot more attention. The preset styles themselves are quite poor.., so the whole concept now rests on using the styles made by other companies....????? Sorry.., but I think that's a little shotty to have to rely on the work already done by the major three because the presets themselves provided by Lionstracs are not up to par with the rest.

Dom IMO should be reaching out to WS owners. Dom has created the ultimate workstation. The MS is a WS powerhouse.., and it doesn't run on Windows! Dom has created a TRUE fully integrated SYNTH/WORKSTATION/ARRANGER that runs VST appliations and more. All the WS junkies out there (not to offend anyone here either) are probably way more likely to take advantage of creating USER STYLES..., as they're already used to scratching out the majority of the work they're doing now on the WS's.

It's clear that Yamaha has even rubbed a little of the line away as the Motif XS's new arps have been noted by users AND YAMAHA as having an ARRANGER LIKE FEEL with the chord recognition. Dom's MS's takes it all the way where Yammie and the others won't go! I can't tell you how many times I've seen WS owners flat out say they'd love to have arranger features on their synths and the ability to jump back and forth between BOTH recording platforms. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE MS IS!!!!!

Regardless.., MOST arranger players are looking for OUT OF THE BOX PRESET STYLES PROVIDED BY THE KEYBOARD MAKER AND NOT WANTING TO DEAL WITH CONVERTING THE WORK OF SOMEONE ELSE TO GET GOOD STYLES.

Converting tons of Yamaha styles on a TOTL MS that utilize an EXTREMELY OLD AND DATED XG sound IMO is pointless and is not groud breaking in sound by any means. It's just using a very expensive TOTL workstation to sound like a much cheaper PSR (Even TYROS styles will sound MUCH CHEAPER using an XG format)

All the MS owners are saying these converted styles are great..., well PLEASE POST them. Many of us would love to hear these..., you don't even have to play anything yourself. Just show how well the converted style sounds on the MS. Hell.., Lion's track for damn sure ain't doing this.

I'm sorry if some of you MS owners feel a little overwhelmed by demo requests.., but what are Dom's potential customers supposed to rely on.., HIS online demos.. need I say more on that one.


[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 06-03-2009).]
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/03/09 01:48 PM

Squeak I agree with all you have said, and indeed its essentially what I have been saying all long

The bit I DONT agree with is "....All the MS owners are saying these converted styles are great..., Just show how well the converted style sounds on the MS...."

I have NEVER said that or even thought that!!

I have always said the styles and MIDI arranger side of the MS is average.

And to then have some users say , as you quite correctly pointed out, that the XG VST is more than enough and sounds wonderful!!!! Just makes it more absurd.

HOWEVER the Audio arranger side is quite brilliant..No demos yet but soon enough.

Just getting my loop libraries sorted. I haven't touched them for some time, and I am sure some will need updating...

The MS with the Elastique audio engine can change pitch of samples on the fly in real time, with no "chipmunks" either.

In fact a SZ member Magica Alfa has done some demos using partly audio style creation and utilising the many great Giga/Linux sampler sounds...
http://www.esnips.com/doc/c775b069-a794-4bc0-afa7-2e28dab983cd/Pop-1
http://www.esnips.com/doc/152919db-7637-4bb9-a7ea-30ea7a55f470/Style-Funky
http://www.esnips.com/doc/dd35fe8c-73d7-42ab-bbee-ed444edd229e/HOUSE-STYLE

There are some who say the midi styles and arranger are good enough for most people, but these same people are not actually using the MS to play gigs with...maybe just a tad of hypocrisy there I think.

There are some Media Station users happy to admit it does have some issues and to not do so is, hmmmmm , shall I say rather like sticking ones head in the sand.

My ONLY criticism is of the on board MIDI styles and MIDI arranger operation. I suspect being able to edit on a larger screen will make a big difference. But as I have said before I am no longer interested in MIDI styles. Its AUDIO styles for me from now on.

The other two software problems I had are to be fixed.

But in fairness to me the Performance function was advertised to me and TOLD to me BEFORE I bought the MS to be working fully, so maybe people can understand why I get frustrated with the time its taking to fix it!!!!

But Squeak you hit it on the head with your post. Lionstracs should forget about arranger users per se, and concentrate on the WS aspects of this. I would even go so far as to say remove the arranger all together, but leave the Audio Elastique engine and maybe get more into arps instead.

Dennis
Posted by: squeak_D

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/03/09 02:32 PM

Dennis I apologize for putting you in that group then. You're the exception to this
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/03/09 02:43 PM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/03/09 03:27 PM

I guess now people can understand why most of the post hear on synthzone can not be taken seriously.

In this thread, you have persons saying that arranger players are musical dummies and can not use a fully loaded arranger to its potential.


But in other threads about the Audya (that does not have style editing), you have the same persons complaining about the lack of style editing and saying arranger players want that.

So there is an absolute contradiction in their statements and they only suggest that persons are just criticizing for criticizing sake.

It is also worthy to note that the ones making the contradicting statements, do not own neither an Audya nor a mediastation.
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/03/09 04:14 PM

Dennis..a bad day again?..

I didn't see an apology, or did I see a need for one...I apologize, I didn't see your apology, or why an apology was even necessary...I thought it was just "down under" expressing of one's opinions...

Besides , I was to busy re booting this dang MediaStation...)
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/03/09 04:18 PM

Dennis quote: "PS: @ Fran...Fran when someone makes an apology it is courteous to at least acknowledge it. That you didn't says a lot."

Dennis what it says...I don't read "all" the post....I try not to, when I am not interested in contents...I overlooked your statement..I did not ignore you...Why would I....as I said I didn't even think there was a problem.....Now back to this MS..
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/03/09 04:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Dennis quote: "PS: @ Fran...Fran when someone makes an apology it is courteous to at least acknowledge it. That you didn't says a lot."

Dennis what it says...I don't read "all" the post....I try not to, when I am not interested in contents...I overlooked your statement..I did not ignore you...Why would I....as I said I didn't even think there was a problem.....Now back to this MS..



What an interesting co-incidence you make this post at this time....very interesting....And your comments there sum up your attitude in a nutshell. ..YOU DONT READ ALL THE POST...wow!

I wonder if others on this forum follow the same practice? Maybe thats why there is so much ill-informed comment, because people do not read an entire post, and more importantly do not bother to try and comprehend what the posts are about.

And you then have the front to make comments on a post you have nto read fully. Well that explains a lot.
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/03/09 05:03 PM

Just to clarify I WRONGLY said that you were the one who criticised others for using charts.

That was an erroneous statement and the one I apologised for.

Nothing to do with any "down-under" way of anything.

I was wrong I apologised. Whether you accepted the apology or not is not relevant, what was relevant and to me showed a lack of respect, was the total dissing of said apology.
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/03/09 05:22 PM

Dennis, you need a good nights rest..There are no problems, and you didn't owe me an apology...

You read too much into comments on a chat site....

I know what I know and am content...

Chat again..another day...
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/03/09 05:29 PM

Guys to be honest, I am not reading SZ as much, if DNJ wasn't Skyping me links to SZ post...days would go by before I catch up on SZ reading...

Now let me reboot this MS again..
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/04/09 11:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
patience will be a good thing....... give domenico time and let hem make true his plans....... if he can make the good stuf what we have already in MS he can finish it also. ........ only he need time to make it finish and believe me he is 90% near finish line.


Most of us have been reading exactly the same thing for the past four years. Many have been TRYING to use the MS live for that long, and it STILL can't do it well. It sits at home, as a VSTi player, and they all have other arrangers. We've been told it is "90%" there since day one... Forgive our skepticism.

And genesys, just in case you are referring to me, I have never shied away from admitting that AT INITIAL PURCHASE, I need an arranger that is good to go out of the box. And THEN, I need an arranger that is capable of being edited to be even better. NOT an arranger that will take months or years before it is ready for the gig, nor an arranger that sounds pretty good the day I buy it, but cannot be advanced easily past that state.

If this concept is difficult for you to understand and sympathize with, perhaps you could start posting examples of your 'all original' styles, and perhaps give us a description of how long you took to create them, whether you play live with your arranger, whether you use SMF's or styles exclusively, and whether you create styles from 'scratch' or use parts of others... let us walk a mile in your shoes, and see if YOUR workflow works for US.

There is a HUGE difference between minor style editing and total style creation. Few have the skills or the time for the latter (at the top ROM style level), but most of us need the former. Perhaps you are right though. How DOES one take this forum seriously? Those that champion the 'open' arrangers and 'rolling your own' and try to put down those of us with a practical approach to what we need in an arranger are also the same people that virtually NEVER demonstrate that they aren't talking theoretically, that what they preach is what they practice. I see a lot of TALK, but little WALK....

IF the MS was a great arranger AS WELL as it's other qualities, I would already have one. And no, I'm afraid that you can't call an empty shell where you do ALL the work an 'arranger', no more than you can call a completely disassembled 'kit car' an actual vehicle. It's a POTENTIAL vehicle. IF.... you have the time and skills to assemble it. I bet you bought YOUR car assembled, didn't you?

And my criticism of the Audya has existed on several levels, but to boil it down, an arranger that is $1500 more expensive than others should AT LEAST have the same editing tools on it that the cheaper ones do. And it's revolutionary features should work fully, not partially.

If you use your arranger as a VSTi WS, then no, perhaps it doesn't NEED to be a good arranger. If you use your arranger as a coffeemaker, it doesn't need to be a good arranger. But if you use your arranger like 99% of ALL people use an arranger, then yes, perhaps it DOES need to be a good arranger

If these don't sound like legitimate points, yes, perhaps this forum IS a joke...
Posted by: mr9000

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/04/09 11:54 AM

When i buy a MS, i'll buy a hummer along with it..although it should be stated,neither make much sense or really any use.

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 06-04-2009).]
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/04/09 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mr9000:
When i buy a MS, i'll buy a hummer along with it..although it should be stated,neither make much sense or really any use.

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 06-04-2009).]



Now you guys are knocking my Hummer too...
Posted by: squeak_D

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/04/09 12:28 PM

Hell you could replace the Hummer dash with the panel of the MS! This way you get a cool looking cockpit.., AND a nice color touch screen with DVD, and more! You could wire up a bluetooth device and use a wireless midi keyboard or get someone to trick out an Iphone and use a virtual keyboard to control the MS.., and you can use the controls on your Hummer's steering wheel to switch songs on the MP3 players


[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 06-04-2009).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/04/09 01:08 PM

I buy an MS, I expect to get a hummer from the saleswoman!

She just made a commission for something that doesn't work... (yet... but it's 90% there, trust me, I wouldn't **** in your mouth, checks in the mail, sure, that's a REAL Rolex )
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/04/09 01:47 PM

Genesys . There is no contradiction in people wanting the ability to edit a style or create a style even if they cant do it very well. They simply dont want to be locked into an instrument that dictates the tight limitations of what can be done with it. You may wish to make patchwork music by copying one piece of audio into a track (once the Audya developes ability in a future OS or using the MS Qranger technology). But try making music other than 1 or 2 chord dance music with tasty chord changes and see what you get? The Audya basically gives you a set of styles and thats all you have got at this point.Noone is calling anyone a Dummy if they cant make styles very well. The whole argument is that it takes skill to make great styles. The Media station gives you mediocre styles that you can completely recreate , however most people would completely re creat more mediocre styles :-)If you had the skill this instrument would be an incredible creative tool. But it takes great skill. However as an arranger , something used live and probably used as an instrument that a musicians livelihood depends upon, it seems to have major limitations in live play and if it locked up in a live performance and needed to be rebooted ,could cost a musician their job. (Thats what i meant about being horified that a fellow musician would knowingly let/encourage working musicians to invest their hard earned money in a product that could lose them work Fran). This is an arranger forum and the people interested in the product for the most part are arranger musicians. The product is promoted as an arranger workstation but the thing it does not do well is work as efficiently as any $600 entry level arranger would.
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/04/09 06:13 PM

Seems like persons are finding it very hard to tap dance around the contradiction.

The midiastation has styles and the ability to import lots and lots of third party styles. It also allows for those styles to be completely and with detail, edited by replacement of sounds (even VST sounds), copying of style parts or you can even create your own style from scratch. However, persons on this forum contend that arranger players do not have the skills to use a TOTL arranger the way they are meant to be use. Those same persons then go on to criticize another TOTL arranger (Audya) for not having detail style editing (the very same thing they say arranger players do not have the skill to do). If they can not see those statements as being contradicting statements, then ….

And persons seem to get confused with the difference between something being an “arranger” (objective) and something being a “good arranger” (subjective).

When I posted a topic on what is an arranger, it was very difficult for person to identify what is an arranger.
Posted by: squeak_D

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/04/09 06:41 PM

Sounds to me like you're taking something a little too personally man. First off all.., if memory serves me correctly..., last time I saw a post here regarding how people use their styles the MAJORITY responded by saying they do MINOR tweeking and don't dig into the deep style editing and many did not create them from scratch.

Perhaps we should throw up another topic AGAIN on how members use their styles and once again see how many dig DEEP into the style editing BEYOND simple part revoicing, part swapping, and effects editing. How many here have enough practice on keyboard drums too (which is one of the BIGGEST obsticles) for MANY when it comes to creating styles. Keyboard drumming is very hard for some people.
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/04/09 07:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:
Sounds to me like you're taking something a little too personally man. First off all.., if memory serves me correctly..., last time I saw a post here regarding how people use their styles the MAJORITY responded by saying they do MINOR tweeking and don't dig into the deep style editing and many did not create them from scratch.

Perhaps we should throw up another topic AGAIN on how members use their styles and once again see how many dig DEEP into the style editing BEYOND simple part revoicing, part swapping, and effects editing. How many here have enough practice on keyboard drums too (which is one of the BIGGEST obsticles) for MANY when it comes to creating styles. Keyboard drumming is very hard for some people.


Nothing personal here.

BTW your point above is exactly my point with people’s criticism for the Audya for lack of style creation and detail style editing.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/04/09 09:35 PM

Sorry, genesys, but before we go much further, perhaps you could play us some of YOUR 'conversions' from third party styles...

You see, there is a huge gap between a machine having the POTENTIAL to do a task, and users' actual skill to do the task. Personally, as I have said earlier, I believe it is a VERY hard task to take a style for one arranger, and turn it into something at least as good on another. Whether closed or open. If you feel otherwise, respectfully, I would like to hear some examples of you doing this.

Otherwise, you are arguing a point you cannot support. I believe there is a VAST difference between merely moving a note here, a note there to edit an already pretty good style to fit a tune you want to do, to taking something that sounds bloody horrible on its' new arranger, and turning it into something as good as from whence it came. Let alone BETTER.

I would like to see some proof that this is as easy as you make out. Because, in my experience of mining the web for conversions, I haven't found anyone reliably succeeding at this. Who knows? Perhaps, if you feel this is easy (and can show proof of the quality of your work), there is good money to be made providing this service? Lord knows, there are enough MS users out there clamoring for good non-PSR styles that use VSTi's and all the capabilities that the MS has.
Posted by: rikkisbears

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/04/09 10:15 PM

Hi Genesys,
I'm probabably an example of the type of user Spalding is referring to.

I know the style creation/editing features of my Korg pretty much inside out. The same as I have over the years with my Technics, Yamaha , Roland & Ketron.
I heavily rely on editing functions, the styles I put together are from various sources including, track copying of internal styles, intro's & endings from song based midifiles, BIAB conversions, EMC conversions. A lot of these styles require more than just the changing of instruments or panning, they require note editing. THat's why my SD1+ didn't work out for me.

With decent editing functions, it doesn't matter if a keyboard has the type of styles I use, I can find one that closely resembles & alter it, or fix up an EMC conversion that contains wrong notes, whatever.

The styles I put together don't come up to Rom style quality, but they are useable.
If I was a bit more musically inclinded, I'd probably be able to tweak them up just that tiny bit better, but unfortunately my brain leans more towards the "How To" rather than the perfect musical result.

I sort of find it a bit odd, the number of musician's that appear to be content just using onboard styles.

best wishes
Rikki

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
Genesys . There is no contradiction in people wanting the ability to edit a style or create a style even if they cant do it very well. They simply dont want to be locked into an instrument that dictates the tight limitations of what can be done with it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by to the genesys:
[B] Nothing personal here.

BTW your point above is exactly my point with people’s criticism for the Audya for lack of style creation and detail style editing.
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 02:33 AM

Rikki, you are the type of user I also am referring to.

That is exactly the beauty of an arranger --- to be able to use it in multiple ways.

The test is not whether you have your styles sounding “as good as” a factory style )which is subjective and up to personal taste), but whether you can tweak the style so that you can make it work for you and for your show and performances.


I don’t make/recreate/edit my styles to sound like the factory ones (that would be pointless). If I wanted to use factory styles, I would not have anything to do with user styles. I make/recreate/edit styles to suit my style of playing, to sound different from others and to my own satisfaction. And posting styles that I have edited/created would also be pointless and would not prove anything because what I may like you may not like and what you may like I may not like so you would not get anything from me showing example of user styles.
It is not the style that needs to sound good but the end result of a person playing a style. I could have a “good” PA2x pro style and sound bad playing with that style but I could have one of my edited/recreated styles and sound good. Ultimately it is all about the person using and playing the arranger from setting-up and editing to playing on a gig.



BTW Diki statements like “something that sounds bloody horrible on its' new arranger,” are very subjective.
Posted by: squeak_D

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 05:05 AM

I don't see the contradiction Genesys. The Zone's arranger forum makes up such a small part of the arranger community. I don't think arranger players lack the skills to create their own styles. I'm saying BASED ON THIS FORUM and based on posts from the past regarding how styles are used..., it would appear that MOST (on this forum) are happy with the preset styles as they are and any editing is often minute. Rikki is an exception as yourself.., (when looking at THIS forum).

However.., this forum is a SMALL very very very SMALL part of the arranger playing community. The complaints regarding Ketron not adding these style recording features applies as a "whole". Ketron has greatly limited this area (even for those who do not dig too deep into style editing and may want to change a few things yet to find that those tools are not there.., at least NOT YET). For the person (and the best example I can give) or the region that you OFTEN find people writing their own styles (which is MIDDLE EASTERN music). These individuals who would commonly utilize these features are currently left in the dark if they want to buy and Audya.

Based on what I've seen over the years Genesys.., these TOTL arrangers do a very good job at covering tradtional western styles.., but MANY (stock units) do not fair well for other region's unless you spend MORE money and buy a region specific arranger (such as an oriental model).

Hell.., just talk to Nedim regarding availability of middle eastern styles on some brands of arrangers.

Again.., looking at THIS forum Genesys.., the majority here have reported they're content with the preset styles and don't feel the need to deeply edit them. It's not saying arranger players lack the skills to create them.., it's just saying that (at least here) you find owners content with 95% of what's already in the board. Not just in styles.., but even in patches.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 06-05-2009).]
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 05:40 AM

After re reading this thread, I made changes in my post that needed correction....NONE!!!!...

My posts reflect, the use of "my MS", and "My opinions" and "My results...

I played only "my MS"..not Dennis's , not Zmago's, not Richard's, Not John's etc..

and.... none of those folks have played "my" MS...

As for misleading anyone to spend their "hard earned money" on a MediaStation...I did not, and the only reference I made to potential people inquiring about the MS....." enlighten folks that may be considering the MS"...

Also .. 2 other MS owners posted they agreed with my comments, the 3rd MS owner {Dennis), agreed with most of what I said, with the exception of negative experiences that he had on "his" MS..


My posts remain as stated...both facts about "my" MS and "my" opinions..

Hopefully, for you folks that think I sold you a false bill of goods, can read my comments again, and come away with an understanding....that I can only speak of "My" experiences on "my" MS...as the other MS owners can only state facts about "Their own MS".....

As for "potential buyers ", I can only think of one, maybe two other folks on SZ that would be a candidate to purchase a MS, with the need of patience and skill level(and desire) to make it a personal instrument...
Posted by: squeak_D

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 05:59 AM

Fran.., I still say the MS is a great keyboard. It's abilities as a workstation are top notch. It's ability to satisfy the needs of arranger players is a little touch and go.

If you enjoy writing your own styles.., and like the ability to use sounds for these styles that are in no way possible on the typical arranger..., the MS will bring a huge smile to your face as the result can be very rewarding.

For the arranger player who's looking for the out of box experience that doesn't want to convert styles or record their own, but want the same preset style quality of the big three.., well their needs may not be met on this level (out of the box using presets provided by the company).

Again.., it's not to say the MS isn't a great instrument.., because it clearly is and has capabilities that put it above many arrangers on the market. Potential buyers have to ask themselves what group they fall under. Are you a style writer.., do you enjoy tweeking and converting styles.., or do you prefer good quality presets that require little to no editing. Nothing wrong with either group you're in too.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 06-05-2009).]
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 02:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:

Now let me reboot this MS again..


Yes I see what you mean...mine just started playing up again requiring re-boot. This is AFTER the patch was applied.

I am at 7 re-boots now and STILL no sound...might have to send a message to Dom, although he will probably not reply...It will be like Vagro and I will be on some silly some spam filter that apparently does not allow even MS owners in....Anyway we will see.

Not Happy Jan!!!!!
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 02:27 PM

i wonder how many other musicians trust their MS to gig with ?
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 02:45 PM

Good grief, genesys...! What a load of tapdancing to get around the fact that it is obvious that you cannot make styles as good as the closed ROM ones. NO-ONE said to make them the same. Of course that is bloody stupid. As, in all fairness, that is just thinking that's what anyone would do. No-one wants to make them the same. They simply want them to sound AS GOOD. Whatever they DO make.

The point is, the factory styles, if you use them AT ALL, set a standard for excellence. The drums sound like drummers played them, the guitars sound like guitarists played them, the basslines sound like bass players played them, etc., etc.. Perform a song on one of those, and then go to a style you have made, and if your drums sound like a keyboard player programmed them, your guitars sound like a keyboard player programmed them, everything sounds a bit half-assed compared to your previous song. Now, I don't know about you, but most people I know care about not sucking every time they go to a user created style.

And, with all respect, I am afraid I cannot really take what you say seriously if you refuse to illustrate your point. You see, if I were castigating the forum for NOT using conversions much or creating their own styles, while everyone was telling me how difficult they are to do, if someone asked me to show how well I was succeeding at the task they fail at, if I thought what I had done was any good at all, I would post it. Because. if I didn't post it, I would expect everybody to assume I am secretly aware that, in comparison to what most people use, they SUCK...

Now, maybe your styles DON'T suck... but you have hardly given us any reason to think otherwise. Maybe your sense of creativity allows you to consider that a style that you created, no matter how bad, is better than a great ROM style that someone else created. Fair enough, but don't expect many to follow your example. I would be interested to hear HOW you use your styles... Do you, for instance, play in public..? Do you hold down a gig playing as an OMB or small combo where the arranger does much of the backing? Do you play Western music, or are you one of those players from smaller ethnic markets that don't HAVE good ROM styles to set a standard for?

Or, are you simply one of the myriad that has decided to champion the MS, but only in the theoretical sense? For three or four years now, countless posters have pointed out the MS's 'potential' advantage over closed arrangers, while posting absolutely nothing to show they have managed to unlock it whatsoever. Little has been posted that even rivals a MOTL closed arranger, let alone something that lives up to the hype that is bestowed on it.

I am sorry, but until you can SHOW that what you do is up to the standards that most of us here EXPECT to use in a style that is backing us, you have no right to lecture us on whether we NEED the style editing tools or not. Even polishing a conversion from something else takes all of them they can provide. There is no contradiction between saying on the one hand that doing the task is hard, and creating your own styles so they don't sound like amateurish messes is even harder, and saying that, for what little we DO use them for, they should be there.

I am sorry, but every time I hear such lame excuses as to why someone CAN'T post something to illustrate their points,
Quote:
posting styles that I have edited/created would also be pointless and would not prove anything because what I may like you may not like and what you may like I may not like so you would not get anything from me showing example of user styles.
merely shows you are ALREADY aware that what you have managed to create is not to the standards that we prefer. And me, I don't want to have to go to using lame styles, just so I can say I created them! That's like playing with BAD musicians, just so you can say you prefer to play live!

Most people NEED editing tools to make their conversions and assembled styles sound a bit better. But few if any (no-one has posted ANY totally user created styles here that I consider very good) need them for ground up creation. But the same tools are needed for BOTH tasks.

So forgive us when we bitch when they aren't there...
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 02:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
Yes I see what you mean...mine just started playing up again requiring re-boot. This is AFTER the patch was applied.

I am at 7 re-boots now and STILL no sound...might have to send a message to Dom, although he will probably not reply...It will be like Vagro and I will be on some silly some spam filter that apparently does not allow even MS owners in....Anyway we will see.

Not Happy Jan!!!!!



Dennis, I re installed 3.2 with the update kernel and all seems well again..I think my problem originated with me editing "Jack" connection..
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 03:10 PM

Thanks Fran...I had already checked JACK and the preset was on and active after reboot, but it will not hurt to check again.... I will also re-run the patch as well to see if that makes a difference.

D

PS: DIKI did you NOT see the links I posted in a previous post to demos by Magica? A couple of the intros are a bit spacy, but get into the body of the demo and the underlying styles are pretty decent I think.

Dennis
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 03:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:
I don't see the contradiction Genesys. The Zone's arranger forum makes up such a small part of the arranger community. I don't think arranger players lack the skills to create their own styles. I'm saying BASED ON THIS FORUM and based on posts from the past regarding how styles are used..., it would appear that MOST (on this forum) are happy with the preset styles as they are and any editing is often minute. Rikki is an exception as yourself.., (when looking at THIS forum).

However.., this forum is a SMALL very very very SMALL part of the arranger playing community. The complaints regarding Ketron not adding these style recording features applies as a "whole". Ketron has greatly limited this area (even for those who do not dig too deep into style editing and may want to change a few things yet to find that those tools are not there.., at least NOT YET). For the person (and the best example I can give) or the region that you OFTEN find people writing their own styles (which is MIDDLE EASTERN music). These individuals who would commonly utilize these features are currently left in the dark if they want to buy and Audya.

Based on what I've seen over the years Genesys.., these TOTL arrangers do a very good job at covering tradtional western styles.., but MANY (stock units) do not fair well for other region's unless you spend MORE money and buy a region specific arranger (such as an oriental model).

Hell.., just talk to Nedim regarding availability of middle eastern styles on some brands of arrangers.

Again.., looking at THIS forum Genesys.., the majority here have reported they're content with the preset styles and don't feel the need to deeply edit them. It's not saying arranger players lack the skills to create them.., it's just saying that (at least here) you find owners content with 95% of what's already in the board. Not just in styles.., but even in patches.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 06-05-2009).]


I agree with the above except for one thing.

You can make small edits on the Audya you just can not make detail edits.
It is this synthzone market that the Audya is made for. That is why it is surprising to hear persons on this forum say that they want detail style edits on the Audya when on threads on the MS they say that they are incapable of editing styles.


For the record I would want detail style editing on the Audya and midijay. And it would be better if there is a PC program to do that.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 03:52 PM

I prefer onboard editing. Without a sophisticated player in the software, you have to tweak, port back to the arranger to try a full song with it, rinse and repeat ad infinitum. Not to mention, many arranger players tend to be on the elderly side and a bit computer phobic. And some of us use Macs (bet you no Mac software!).

The thing is, genesys, if arrangers boil their feature sets down to what the lowest common denominator wants (basically, nothing but good styles), most features on any arranger would disappear. Few edit their sequences. Few use multiple Intros. Few use the Songbooks, hardly anyone ever uses the samplers, many don't use the harmonizers, many stick to just the OTS (no need for live patch selection ), no need for a chord sequencer or track, no need for looping fills, the list goes on and on... Heck, I bet well over half of ALL arrangers dial up a Free Panel setting and never change it... Who needs registrations, anyway!

The point is, while many don't use style editing MUCH, a lot of people use it a LITTLE. But you never know which editing tool you are going to need. Without style event editing, so many simple things that can ruin a conversion or making your own fills are impossible to fix. And those of us that DO do a little style editing need these, even if we don't completely roll our own.

If I were you, to be honest, I would be VERY cautious about broadcasting, for WHATEVER point you want to make, that virtually no-one uses the style editing on their arrangers. Because if the manufacturers start to take that seriously (as you seem to do ), you can be sure they will drop them completely. And then, where will YOU be?

YOU need detail style editing, we ALL need detail style editing, no matter how seldom we use it, or what we use it for. That's ALL they need to know. Trying to cut the rug out from under those of us willing to make some noise over their non-inclusion on the Audya could come back to bite you in the ass. Just be grateful SOMEONE is willing to fight for what you use daily.

Or be prepared to be like me, howling in the wilderness for the return of my Chord Sequencer... Another feature few used, despite it's it's essential nature to those who DID.
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 04:04 PM

I never claimed When I edit/create styles my benchmark was to be “as good as the closed ROM ones” because that statement does not have any meaning, is very subjective and is irrelevant to me. That does not mean my edits are not “good” but my edits are done to fit my style of playing.

I am not saying that the styles from the factory are not good but just that I want something that would work for my style of playing and show.

It is just like taking a commercial midi file. The commercial midi file is not bad but I am sure most of us make changes to the file to fit out particular style of playing. Remember some arrangers even allow you to replace the midi drum track with style drums.

It is the same concept I have with styles.

And yes I do play western and ethnic music.

I am not castigating persons for admitting to not having the skills to edit or create styles to their particular playing style.

One of the things I like to do with my styles is that I have a set of styles that uses the same drum kits and bass guitar so that for a 1/1.5 set it sounds like the same band playing. And yes that is the sound I go for when editing or creating styles. I want to sound like a 4/5 member live band.

I am not saying that everyone should start to create or edit styles (for obvious reasons I would want everyone else to sound like a generic keyboard being played OTB). I am simply saying that just because you can not does not mean other persons can and will.
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 04:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
Yes I see what you mean...mine just started playing up again requiring re-boot. This is AFTER the patch was applied.

I am at 7 re-boots now and STILL no sound...might have to send a message to Dom, although he will probably not reply...It will be like Vagro and I will be on some silly some spam filter that apparently does not allow even MS owners in....Anyway we will see.

Not Happy Jan!!!!!


yes, I will not respond you asap because I already told you that this week and the next week I'm lways ouside my office for demostrate the MS to some new Italian and germany store.

You sent me offline this messages:
dennis dennis (02/06/2009 22.23.34): Dom, a question for when you are back on-line..Can I access the VST's from an external sequencer via MIDI? If so, how is this done?

dennis dennis (02/06/2009 22.54.28): sorry Dom was away from PC...thanks...But I actually want to play several VST's at once like from a midi file.I cannot access them from within the Qranger, so I am trying a different approach..What channels are used? Will these correspond to channels 1-16 on the MS? Can I just assign GM patch numbers from the external sequencer?

dennis dennis (02/06/2009 22.56.18): IE WHAT are the CC 0/32 and patch # to send form teh ext sequencer to select the VST (not the patch within the VST) OR are teh VST's already allocated by the MS to preset midi channels? Like VST host 1 = midi channel 1 VST host 6 = midi channel 6 etc etc ??

and much more old messages that we know..

Dennis, i told you a lot of time, Untill you can not understand well the Jack system and how to work the all ASIO host, make the all experiments that you like BUT at your risk!

If you continue change some configuration or connection or I don't know what, for sure you will also fill of bugs the Jack system too, same can happen on windows OS too.

The new kernel that you get, fixed the all serial dream chip issue too and the MS play perfect without any xruns too: http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/xrunsOS32.jpg

Till yesterday your MS was working and now will not booting the sounds...smell some strange, are you sure that is the MS OS the issue and not some your setups??

Fran told you the same, reinstall the OS 3.2+new kernel and the MS will start to work as before, simple.

this video demo shown tha the MS is working fine with a ton of connections: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FyARYMHX6o

This simple demo also shown that the MS is able to play the all night without crash, it mean stable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-6Mo2Gbk64

Booting the MS and use ONLY the MS OS and you can play hours without stop and restart system.
At home make the all experiments that you like and if you brocken the system, just CD>KEEP DATA...
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 04:20 PM

Woh! I have always supported style editing on arrangers. I would always support advances that manufacturers would make in that respect. That is why I think the MS is leading in that area Unlike some persons who would keep criticizing the MS for having detail style editing. When persons tell the MS to not have these wonderful tools, other manufacturers like Yamaha, Roland and Korg would say “we do not have to have editing tools on our arrangers because arranger players can not and will not use them” and they would reference threads on synthzone on the MS.


That is the contradiction I was referring to. Criticizing the MS for having detail style editing while at the same time castigating the Audya for not having detail style editing.
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 04:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
yes, I will not respond you asap because I already told you that this week and the next week I'm lways ouside my office for demostrate the MS to some new Italian and germany store.

You sent me offline this messages:
dennis dennis (02/06/2009 22.23.34): Dom, a question for when you are back on-line..Can I access the VST's from an external sequencer via MIDI? If so, how is this done?

dennis dennis (02/06/2009 22.54.28): sorry Dom was away from PC...thanks...But I actually want to play several VST's at once like from a midi file.I cannot access them from within the Qranger, so I am trying a different approach..What channels are used? Will these correspond to channels 1-16 on the MS? Can I just assign GM patch numbers from the external sequencer?

dennis dennis (02/06/2009 22.56.18): IE WHAT are the CC 0/32 and patch # to send form teh ext sequencer to select the VST (not the patch within the VST) OR are teh VST's already allocated by the MS to preset midi channels? Like VST host 1 = midi channel 1 VST host 6 = midi channel 6 etc etc ??

and much more old messages that we know..

Dennis, i told you a lot of time, Untill you can not understand well the Jack system and how to work the all ASIO host, make the all experiments that you like BUT at your risk!

If you continue change some configuration or connection or I don't know what, for sure you will also fill of bugs the Jack system too, same can happen on windows OS too.

The new kernel that you get, fixed the all serial dream chip issue too and the MS play perfect without any xruns too: http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/xrunsOS32.jpg

Till yesterday your MS was working and now will not booting the sounds...smell some strange, are you sure that is the MS OS the issue and not some your setups??

Fran told you the same, reinstall the OS 3.2+new kernel and the MS will start to work as before, simple.

this video demo shown tha the MS is working fine with a ton of connections: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FyARYMHX6o

This simple demo also shown that the MS is able to play the all night without crash, it mean stable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-6Mo2Gbk64

Booting the MS and use ONLY the MS OS and you can play hours without stop and restart system.
At home make the all experiments that you like and if you brocken the system, just CD>KEEP DATA...



1. The configuration is EXACTLY as you have it from the OS 3.2 PLUS the patch installed.

2. The MS form day one has had software issues that youi refuse to see, alwasy saying its someone else fault. This is NOT alwasy the case. You should perhaps give people the benefit of the doubt instead of accusing them of doing things.

3. You are always saying how connected you are wiht your Iphone and other communication devices, so why shouldn't someone expect some sort of response, even if its to say youar busy and will get back to it, within sya 24 hours.

4. As you well know and we have discussed at length you use a TCP protocol for most of the operations on the MS, it certainly is NOT usual MIDI..This is why we ask as we do not want to be accused of changing things without knowing about them. ITs why I ask you plenty of times about the MIDI/TCP mapping. God know there is NONE of this stuff available apart form in your head.

Its also what makes creating GOOD midi styles so difficult when you give us no access to NTT tables, or midi note wrap points. THey are but 2 issues withe the lack of midi specifications provided by Lionstracs.

There are no printed (or PDF) documents relating to Patch lists, and MIDI control data, any Remapping from TCP to mid, so you wonder why people have questions.
5. I repeat I have not changed ANYTHING to do with JACK...You told me very early to leave it alone and I have done so.

6. I have re-applied the patch and it is now working again, however it dose not fill me with confidence for the next job. I have been lucky to now that I have had no serious breaches when using it live, but the evidence points to it happening sometime.


Finally, that is the longest response I ahve got form you ever Dom, why does it take this sort of action to get assistance from you.

Vagro had the same, no replies to emails.
You see had you replied we would not be here. Are you sure YOU have not got it stuffed up and heve my address on a spam list??

You know Dom, I have been very patient and undertsanding of your situation and that you are pretty much running everything over there. But there comes a point when it does become overwhelming.

I have been one of the Media Stations biggest fans on SZ, I have many positive comments and overall its a good keyboard, but methinks you are listening too much to people giving you their interpretation of exactly what I am saying.

Anyway, at least you responded so thank you.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 05:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Woh! I have always supported style editing on arrangers. I would always support advances that manufacturers would make in that respect. That is why I think the MS is leading in that area Unlike some persons who would keep criticizing the MS for having detail style editing. When persons tell the MS to not have these wonderful tools, other manufacturers like Yamaha, Roland and Korg would say “we do not have to have editing tools on our arrangers because arranger players can not and will not use them” and they would reference threads on synthzone on the MS.


That is the contradiction I was referring to. Criticizing the MS for having detail style editing while at the same time castigating the Audya for not having detail style editing.



I must have missed something... who criticized the MS for HAVING great editing tools? Plenty of people criticizing it for NOT having great styles. Different thing, there... As of yet, I still haven't heard anyone manage to convert styles from other manufacturers to be better sounding that the closed arranger thay came for. Heck, half of the excitement comes from FINALLY, the MS can play Live-Styler software and an wanky XG soundfont, and sound better than it already does. Despite the MS having the great editing tools, I fail to find anyone that has managed to convert styles for disparate VSTi's and make them work. Putting together a collection of VSTi's that all work and sound together as a whole soundset (as closed arrangers' soundsets are) is a formidable task (if it isn't, where are all the examples of it?).

Next, I am sorry, but editing a style so that it uses the same drumkit and bass player is NOT detail style editing. This is simple header stuff that even the Audya can do (or will, because SD-1 could do that) already. We are talking about tools that allow you to change ONE NOTE. Say a conversion ends up with a major variation that plays a minor chord (it happens! ). You can't do anything to the header to fix this. But, if you have event editing, you can go in and change all the minor thirds to major ones.

The MS does not allow you to have great conversions with one small mistake in it. Every conversion has to be built up from the ground up, especially drumkits. And the whole nature of 'open'-ness means that no-one can DESIGN a converter for it, because everyone's MS has a different selection of VSTi's in it. Sound mapping, velocity mapping, EQ mapping, volume and effects mapping. All these things vary dramatically depending on which VSTi's are installed.

No-one at all, from what I've read here, has criticized the MS for having great tools to edit styles (mind you, no-one has praised the ease of their use, compared to the Roland Makeup Tools and Style Composer). They are absolutely indispensable given it's open nature. But PLENTY of people have an issue with the basic style selection and soundset that comes with it. And given that most of us don't create styles from scratch, but edit existing styles and composite them together, having a great selection of styles especially developed for the best of the MS's ROM soundset (not wanky PSR XG soundset) is pretty important.

I'm sorry if English is not your native tongue, but somehow I think you have got your wires crossed if this whole thing has been about you thinking people thought the MS did NOT need editing tools...
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 05:07 PM

Deleted this, as I thought I have probably said enough on this thread and I do not wnat this to go on forever.

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 06-05-2009).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 06:25 PM

I guess you did miss something.
First, when I gave the example of creating multiple styles with the same drum and bass sound, I was saying that to give a reason for creating/editing styles and not to say whether I do that with minor or detail editing.


Second, if you go back to a lot of the threads on the MS you would see the call for Dom to put more content on the MS and stop developing all the advance style editing tools.


And again you are still talking in the very abstract language of “Good”, “better,” “best”. All subjective and don’t have any meaning.

And converted styles? That is one of the selling points for Yamaha arrangers that there are lots and lots of converted and third party styles for Yamaha. So there is no problem there at least for most arranger players.

And when you say most of us do not create styles from scratch you should qualify that with here on synthzone.


And I am sorry, but if a style is near perfect OTB for a user, then why would you need detail style editing?

If a manufacturer is going to put all of its RandD in to style content that they know would work near perfect OTB for the synthzone arranger club, then what would be the incentive to develop advance style creation tools?

If manufacturers see that arranger users say that they do not have the skill to use advance features of an arranger, then why should they spend money on those advance features? That is probably why Roland did not put the CS on the G 70.

If you still do not get it let me use another analogy.

Yamaha users are showing that they are content with a cheap plastic 61 key arranger.
Do you think there is any incentive for Yamaha to make a well-built 76 key arranger? No. It is not worth Yamaha’s time and money to do that. They no people would buy the cheap 61 key arranger and a well-built 76 key arranger would not bring them any returns.

Likewise, if manufacturers see that users of arrangers are showing that they do not have the skill to create styles, and edit styles in detail, then why should manufacturers have those features. All they would do is concentrate on subjective additions i.e. making the most perfect styles OTB that they think those same persons want.
Posted by: rikkisbears

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 06:38 PM

Hi
I tend to think it's not the playing skills that people lack ( for style creation), and that it's maybe it's more to do with how to go about it. Manuals are not very clear. Unfortunately a certain amount of initial studying of the manual does have to be done when recording or even editing, ie to work out what notes are allowable, what chord type should be used, figuring out setting of note transposition tables etc. Can be confusing if using a different brand of keyboard. A guitar phrase recorded for a psr wouldn't wouldn't work with a Ketron style, but could be used in a Korg style.

If some of this stuff is not correct, the style is never going to sound right no matter how well a style phrase was recorded.

Over at Korg, there's a number of users that create their own styles using various methods.

best wishes
Rikki
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 07:17 PM

Most manuals aren't too good about style editing....most people learn by trial and error, or have someone show them how to do it.

A lot of my clients want to learn basic style editing...re-voicing, swapping parts around, how to make intros that respond to chords...nothing really hard, but again, the manual isn't always clear....I am kept pretty busy with clinics regarding style editing.

Some people still only use their laptops and PC's for email, Facebook and Twitter, and perhaps a bit of photo editing, but we still have plenty of new features/programs that keep being added, so it will be no different for arrangers,,,new features sell, regardless if everyone uses them.

Yamaha is making style editing available on their lower end arrangers, rather than dropping it...I can't see them dumping a feature whose R&D has been paid for many times over...and one that is still used quite often...I don't think Roland will do anything like that, either.

I suspect the chord sequencer was made redundant for a lot of users when SMF and markers became available on arrangers.

Ian
Posted by: squeak_D

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 07:34 PM

From the info I got over the years.., (as I said in a previous post) a very big obsticle for some when recording user styles from scratch is recording the drum parts. This is very difficult for some people. I've talked to several here who have tried to record their own user styles.., yet find they just end up using the preset drum parts already there and replacing everything else. Getting those drum fills down can also be a pain in the ass for some too.

I've always thought (in general) manuals have been pretty decent in the area. They give you the basics.., but creating good stlyles is something you just have to learn hands on and get in a lot of practice time
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/05/09 08:03 PM

Strange, but I find the bass and drum parts the easiest when doing a style from scratch, but I play drums and bass so I know what I want.

The chords and phrases require setting note limits, and they have to be played in over one chord, which is unnatural for most of us keyboardists, as we naturally want to do progressions.

Most arranger players are content to learn how to swap parts, or change voices, and effects...that's been my experience, and I've been doing clinics for quite some time.

The next important things users want to know (at least my clients) is how to re-voice and edit and/or transpose a commercial SMF.

Luckily there are forums like PSR Tutorial, and YPKO to help with other aspects of the instrument, but in my experience, my clinics are usually about style and SMF editing and sometimes a bit about making user registrations or adding tunes to the Music Finder.

Ian
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/06/09 12:23 AM

Dom ,are you saying that you have had no other reports from any of your customers that the MS has crashed in normal use as an arranger or stand alone keyboard ? Is Dennis just one exception ? If so just send him another keyboard and take the old one back. It cant be worth your time having to continually resolve problems that are associated with just one user.

Or is it more than Dennis that is having problems with the MS ?

And did the guy in this clip just play midi files or MP3's all night ?

'This simple demo also shown that the MS is able to play the all night without crash, it mean stable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-6Mo2Gbk64'

I guess thats one way of using an MS but thats one hell of an expensive MP3 player.....



[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-06-2009).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/06/09 12:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
I if you go back to a lot of the threads on the MS you would see the call for Dom to put more content on the MS and stop developing all the advance style editing tools.


There hasn't been a SINGLE thread anywhere on SZ that anyone has ever called for Dom to stop developing style editing tools, and concentrate on styles. NOT ONE.

What there HAVE been (I should know, I posted them ) are threads asking for Dom to slow down the OS development, and concentrate on styles. He's been so focused on just basically getting the monster to work, and to add audio loop tools, multiple VSTi addressing form the styles and SMF's, and a plethora of other things, but has spent little time or money (compared to the big 3, at least) on coherent soundset design (which you need for great style creation) and then the styles themselves. OK, maybe this would slow down style editing tools (but I didn't know they were as basic as Dennis points out), but only as a process of slowing EVERYTHING down... to develop great styles.

Most of us use the already existing great styles as jumping off points for our own creation. But when there aren't many great styles to start with, something needs fixing.

But I assure you, wherever you have got the impression that anyone has asked Dom to slow down style editing tools, you are wrong....

I also have a basic difference with you. You make it out like there is NO difference between what you create yourself and what exists in great ROM styles, there's no way to judge, yada yada yada... Sorry to burst your bubble, but where I come from, audiences tend to like that which sounds great, and not like that which sucks... So I prefer styles that don't suck. Sorry. Even if I've created them myself, edited them myself, whatever. If they suck, they suck. It isn't a matter of taste. Unless you can find me an audience that DOES like styles that suck...
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/06/09 03:41 AM

I suggest you reread a lot of the post that called for more content on the MS and less style editing. Rather than trying to rewrite history after the fact. I don't know why you now want to change your tone regarding development of the MS.

I am sure users can do a search for topics on the MS and see a constant theme for DOM to stop/slowdown (what ever term you want to use), the technology development on the MS.
But I guess all this discussion comes from members not understanding the concept of the MS.


Because when you do not recognize that “to add audio loop tools, multiple VSTi addressing form the styles and SMF's, and a plethora of other things,” is style editing and creation and not just OS development, and an ecentual selling point of the MS then I could somewhat understand the confusion and contradictions in most members postings hear on Synthzone regarding the MS and Audya.

You see, audio loop integration is and essential part of style editing and creation on the MS. VST integration is an essential part of style editing and creation on the MS.

Its all about understanding the concept.


And, if you think I am making these things up regarding understanding the concept of the MS, observe the following two statements in the same prier post by Diki:

“What there HAVE been (I should know, I posted them ) are threads asking for Dom to slow down the OS development, and concentrate on styles.”

And later down in that same post,

“But I assure you, wherever you have got the impression that anyone has asked Dom to slow down style editing tools, you are wrong....”


I never once said that user styles = suck. So I don’t know where you got that misconception from.

Oh and if you can not see that whether a style is useable for one but not useable for another is subjective, then……

I never compared user styles and factory styles in terms of “good” “better” “best”

So whether a style “suck” (what ever that means) is not the discussion I am having about user edited and created styles. To me, it is getting out of the arranger what works most comfortably for the user so that the user can satisfy their audience with the inclusions of styles.
You see, styles is just one part of the equation. What you do with them on stage is another important factor. What you are suggesting is that most persons on this forum have to have the styles doing every thing for them OOTB. That’s fine. It is just not how I work. To each his/her own.

I like to make it look and sound as if I am controlling the band not the band controlling me.


[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 06-06-2009).]
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/06/09 05:32 AM

I will be short.

First if you want tool like MS you need to understand that :

1 This keyboard is not out of box.

2. Dom is every time developing new things That's good. I know him long time i can say all what he done in past he made good. But each ISO need some time to be tested. And because some users like me want to test them he is giving at web all.
MS first when you buy is working well if you know to use like ordinary keyboard. You can play sounds, VSTs, styles, midi files, mp3 . ... That will somebody admit but on end if you can see first replays from midden you will see that all works. Of course more you investigate on it more you find inside more you want to test. That is trouble of open kbd. You want more and more and more ....

3. When you want to investigate at new ISO you need to know that NEW ISO IS only for advanced users. That same thing says all manufactures. You are responsible for your decision.

4. When you use MS at live gig you need to know how is working. If you will test it before for all use it will not stop or you will not need to restart never. Believe me. I use it at live performances and I never had troubles there and also not at home.


If you understand that than MS will play long long time

I'm not sticking my head in the sand I really know what I said.


And finally my friend DIKI I know what I'm having as you know what your are having with G70. Your instrument is really good in your hand. IF you are so good as I see, than MS in your hands will be fantastic dream keyboard that nobody will not forget ever.

I can only say that I'm satisfied user of MY LIONSTRACS MEDIASTATION, if you like that or not.

All what you only dream on other keyboards here is possible. But you must know how to use that for your own good.

ENJOY WHAT EVER YOU PLAY.
Magica ALFA

[This message has been edited by Magica Alfa (edited 06-06-2009).]
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/06/09 06:16 AM

Genesys i am not sure yiou have qouted Diki in the correct context

'And, if you think I am making these things up regarding understanding the concept of the MS, observe the following two statements in the same prier post by Diki:

“What there HAVE been (I should know, I posted them ) are threads asking for Dom to slow down the OS development, and concentrate on styles.”

And later down in that same post,

“But I assure you, wherever you have got the impression that anyone has asked Dom to slow down style editing tools, you are wrong....”

I am sure diki will respond himself but clearly the context that diki and even i have commented about the MS in regards to Doms focus, is on making better styles, styles at least up to the standard of the main manufacturers and to reduce his focus on adding more and more functionalilty in the Operating System. Adding more functions on the MS does not make it have better styles or sound better!! I understand that if you twist Dikis words (your not some kind of Lawyer i hope :-)) and the context that by adding Qranger and the ability to cut and paste audio loops, you are adding functionality to editing styles and that is a further developement of the operating system , BUT that clearly is not within the same context as the first qoute as that was about the OS generally and not specific aspects of its developement.

Clearly (at least to me) you are misqouting diki and its not necessary. I am not defending diki. He is an adult man and can look after himself but all this BS is not necessary at all.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-06-2009).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/06/09 07:18 AM

Spalding I don’t believe I was misquoting Diki out of context. If I am or if he feels that way, let me apologized in advance.

But, I do believe that Diki was making the point that there is a difference between OS enhancements and style creation and editing tools. Remember I was not the one to start making that distinction it was Diki who chose to make that technical distinction.


The point I have been always trying to get across is that with the MS it is not that cut and dry that the lines between a OS enhancement and style editing/creation tools is blurred.


Remember Dom was always making enhancements to the OS/style editing creation tools on the MS. The cry was for Dom to put that on hold and get more content because arranger users are not skilled in using technology on arrangers. That was the general gist of prier post regarding the MS. I don’t think any one can deny that.

The contradiction I was pointing out is that discussions with the Audya saw a change in those person’s positions. They are criticizing Ketron for not having on the Audya more detail and complex style editing/creation tools on the Audya (the same tools they say arranger users are incapable of using).
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/06/09 07:36 AM

You are right that styles creating only for MS is good and needed thing.

But I thing here is next step: If i use this style with one VST inside od i use style with other VST inside at same place.

And here need to made some line. I made my styles with my setup of keyboard. Somebody else will not use same setup as I'm doing that. Here is use of keyboard really endless. I understand Diki when he said that keyboard with converted styles is totaly different sounded. You can imagine how is than if I have in one keyboard 20 VSTs or modules. (That means 20 keyboards).

With LIVE STYLER We got good tool for keyboard players that have some emotion to their previous keyboards and that want only to convert style to new keyboard and play with XG or with some other VST or GM GIGA.
I can make my keyboard in really fast way same as other keyboard (from box). But i don't want that - I will not be happy.
Posted by: keybplayer

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/06/09 10:57 AM

Fascinating! The MS is truly a work in progress eh? I wonder if we can get a video of Fran having to reboot his MS several times in a span of a few minutes? It should be a relatively easy task to accomplish I would think. Just turn the Video Cam on and start filming for 5 minutes or so.

Man, oh Man! am I glad I listened to my gut instinct and held off getting the MS! Irish Acts was right too. These things should have been pointed out LOOONNNNNNGGGGGGG ago!

If a keyboard i.e. "ANY KEYBOARD" is not ready to be fully utilized OOTB then that particular keyboard is NOT ready for prime time period! It is BETA and should be viewed as such in my opinion.

Although, I think it is admirable that Domenico i.e. Dom, is venturing out in new ways and avenues to bring us his revolutionary product(s). The only thing that really compares to the MS is OpenLabs with its Neko and/or the ultra expensive and ultra heavy Wersi's. Dom has a vision because he really believes that Arrangers and even Workstations are headed in this direction i.e. for an ALL IN ONE hardware/software solution where the sky is the limit - depending, of course, on how well the software seamlessly integrates with the on-board hardware and also how technically advanced the hardware actually is that the software needs to run on.

I think Workstations and Arrangers are going in that direction eventually too, and Domenico sould be considered a front runner and a visionary for his efforts and insight into the path and ultimate future of keyboards. There is still a lot of work that needs to be done (as evidenced by the MS ) but all revolutionary ideas with their subsequent product(s) will always have a multitude of problems that require solutions to and bugs that need ironing out. That's a given. For an expample, just look at the MS for your proof...

But I commend Dom for his determination and continued hard work on the MS and his other products. His persistence amid all the naysayers and negativity surrounding the MS really speaks volumes of him as a person in general. That is, "when the going gets tough the tough get going". In other words, they work even harder with the eventual prospect and hopeful outcome of accomplishing all their goals - in this case, the epitome of what a top notch and superior Workstation/Arranger could theoretically be - all rolled into one i.e. a VSTi software/hardware Arranger/Workstation solution like no other. Only, "like no other" in a 'good' way right? It takes time... Hopefully the MS will come through in the end. If it does then I will be the first in line giving my support and monetary resources to the cause. As it stands now though I'm not yet fully convinced. As indeed most others on this forum seem to agree also.

All the best,
Mike
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/06/09 11:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magica Alfa:
I can only say that I'm satisfied user of [b]MY LIONSTRACS MEDIASTATION, if you like that or not.

All what you only dream on other keyboards here is possible. But you must know how to use that for your own good.

ENJOY WHAT EVER YOU PLAY.
Magica ALFA

[This message has been edited by Magica Alfa (edited 06-06-2009).][/B]


As am I Magica...I AM a satisfied user. I point out just 2 things and all of a sudden its implied the MS is not good. IT IS.

It must be a language thing because Dom does not seem to understand the concept that a person can fully understand something but disagree.

I disagreed with the time frame of ONE fix on the MS. BUT I understood the argument why Dom is waiting to fix it.

In other words if I were in Dom's position I would probably do the same thing.

All along I have said this was the ONLY thing that really bugged me. The styles are not the best feature and even Dom admits that.

I have never criticised the overall operation of the MS, in fact I have praised it many times, but all people want to focus on is the .05% negative comment instead of the 99.5% positive comment.

I have my MS working like a dream. I have many multi-VST combis working, the player works well, I have setup all my own giga banks etc etc...Does that sound like a person who does NOT know the instrument?

And yes I did let myself get so frustrated with some things I even got to the point of trying to sell it, and to that end I even had a buyer, but something, I dont know what, made me pull back at the end and decide to keep it.

That was the correct decision. I would have missed all the great things about the MS that I really enjoyed.

My usual method is to study manuals and push buttons and play around but as there is a distinct lack of documentation, and I do not mean generic demos/manuals of basic operations, I mean in-depth tech data, I have asked for other details, some are simple some are not, but does this not show that I want to get deeper into this system?

As for the re-booting thing, it was indeed Fran who raised that by adding to a few posts, that he had to go an re-boot his MS again. All I did was to concur that I had a problem, that came up suddenly and without warning. But I do not see Fran being pilloried for making those comments. No I am being charged with creating all this fuss.

When its all boiled down there are but 2 things I have done,

1. said the native styles are average and that the LS is handy but in no way a proper editor (and to this end I AGREED with Dom that concerns on this needed to be sent to Norbert at LS NOT him)

2.Said I would have preferred the Performance function to be fixed earlier (BUT I have said repeatedly I UNDERSTAND why there is a delay so Dom can do both the CDG AND the performance fix at the same time)

Thats about it, I have made no other disparaging remarks and to be honest I think others have blown these comments into something not intended when I originally posted.

A friend said that my mistake here was NOT in what I posted, it was in not anticipating the audience for those comments.

I think he may be right.

As far as I know, this will be my last comment on this subject. Unless someone asks a direct question.

Thankyou
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/06/09 01:02 PM

Simple fix, genesys. Find ANY post where the editing tools for the MS are mentioned AT ALL. You can use the search engine as well as I can. Find it, quote it, then come back to this thread. Until then, stop putting words into anyone's mouth. I have NEVER asked for a slowdown in editing tools. My main point has always been that Dom is constantly adding NEW features (I expected the editing tools to be good right from the start). That's ALL he ever posts about. In fact, Dom has never mentioned the style editing at all. But he HAS waffled on endlessly about Jack this, Dreamchip that, audio style loops, blah blah blah...

All the time with his product languishing because it sounds, out of the box (where one normally expects something to sound GREAT) worse than a PSR. I merely tried to point out that if he quit adding NEW features, and concentrated on making what he already HAD sound good, he might sell a LOT more arrangers.

But Genesys, you will NEVER find me asking anyone to NOT develop style editing tools. That is absurd. Take your 'agenda' and support it with actual FACTS. When you have to make stuff completely up to bolster your position, you look like a fool. You won't back up any of your assertions with any demos, and you are reduced to inventing other peoples' posts to support your claims. Your entire presence on this thread has been based on imaginary dialog.

We have a pretty good search engine here at SZ. The next time you THINK you read something, somewhere else, try using it. Your memory appears to not be that good...
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/06/09 02:03 PM

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/014616.html

OK Diki, you asked me to find an example of you telling Dom to hold off on features, well here it is in your own words.
“Domenik, give the new 'features' a rest. Spend EVERYTHING you have on style and sound development for a year, THEN go back and start adding OS improvements.”

Not only does this show you said what you are saying you did not say but it shows again the lack of understanding of the concept of the MS.

The style creation and editing tools (those were the “features” Dom was adding) were to enhance the arranger mode on the MS.

They were not general OS enhancements like color display, button usage and so on.

The next time you want to prove your self right, I think you should do the research first to make sure you did not make the statements you are now saying you did not make.


But I suppose in order to get your self out of this one you would probably say that when you were talking about features and OS, you did not know that those were directly related to style creation/editing tools on the MS.
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/06/09 10:34 PM

How strange was this?

Tonight, I had an outdoor gig, on the deck near the bay...

The keyboard used........DRUM ROLL!!!!!!!!!

The MediaStation,X76 expanded...

Traveled 116 miles to the gig...Booted up, first time and all features/sounds worked...


PS: It is no longer for sale..

Used VST's , Giga sounds, player sequences/MP3's, Live Styler, Mic with effects, .......It worked all 4 hours..The only time the lights went off, was when I shut down for the night....

Traveled home another 116 miles....Set up the MS..booted up first try, and everything still works...

Maybe, she just wanted to get out of the house, and was on her good behavior...
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/06/09 11:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
How strange was this?

Tonight, I had an outdoor gig, on the deck near the bay...

The keyboard used........DRUM ROLL!!!!!!!!!

The MediaStation,X76 expanded...

Traveled 116 miles to the gig...Booted up, first time and all features/sounds worked...


PS: It is no longer for sale..

Used VST's , Giga sounds, player sequences/MP3's, Live Styler, Mic with effects, .......It worked all 4 hours..The only time the lights went off, was when I shut down for the night....

Traveled home another 116 miles....Set up the MS..booted up first try, and everything still works...

Maybe, she just wanted to get out of the house, and was on her good behavior...



So how did your audience react to you having the MS on a gig?

Did they come up to you and say the styles “suck”?
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/06/09 11:05 PM

Bravo Fran...Good to see.. See it does work okay . As I said before I have not had any issues using it live...Just at home, LOL, maybe I am the opposite to you, mucks up a little bit at home, perfect little angel when out

Dennis
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 12:02 AM

so i guess everythings alright then.....or maybe not....

Fran and Miden are you both now saying that you have every confidence that 99% of the time the MS works without any problems and you will use this instruement as your main instrument for the forseeable future? I have a 6 year old PA1X . Its the only keyboard i use. I use it at home , i use it at church , i use it at gigs. I play everyday of the week and it has been banged about a bit over the years.left it in the car overnight in winter when i was too tired to lift the beast out the boot in sub-zero temperatures :-) Never once have i swicthed the thing on and it did not work in exactly the way it was designed to the day i got it. I have never been in a position where switching on the PA1X would fill me with trepidation.

I know Miden has had his issues with booting up his MS. But i am interested in Frans use of the MS as he has had his longer than Miden.

Are you saying that Midens MS is simply an exception and that you have not had any knoweldge at all of problems with the MS ?
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 12:29 AM

Genesys find a better qoute because you are misqouting again !!!

"OK Diki, you asked me to find an example of you telling Dom to hold off on features, well here it is in your own words.
“Domenik, give the new 'features' a rest. Spend EVERYTHING you have on style and sound development for a year, THEN go back and start adding OS improvements.”

Not only does this show you said what you are saying you did not say but it shows again the lack of understanding of the concept of the MS.

The style creation and editing tools (those were the “features” Dom was adding) were to enhance the arranger mode on the MS. "

Do you know what a misqoute is Genesys ?

You have substituted the word "Features" for "Style creation and editing tools" . If you read the last line of your qoute from Diki you will see tyhe context of the qoute in that he says "THEN go back and start adding OS improvements.”

What you have done is taken a qoute that had one meaning i.e stop adding additional functions generally and focus on sound and style development, and implied that it meant something else specifically , Stop adding editing and style creating and focus on styles and sounds. Its clear that this is a misqoute by the last line of the qoute !!!

Its genius Genesys except that there are laws preventing this kind of creativity.

Qranger and live styler are not style or sound developemnt. They are simply additional features that come under the general heading of "features" that an MS owner can use. Neither of them enhance the MS onboard styles or sounds which is clearly the point that diki was making. Unfortunately , that is still left for the MS owner to attempt to fix.

Find another qoute. This one does not work either.



[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-07-2009).]
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 12:30 AM

The boot issue has been well and truly fixed..

I have been using mine for acouple of months now for gigs. As I said before NO problems at a gig, jsut at home, and then rarely. the issue yesterday was rare, in fact the first time it has taken more than 3 reboots, again AT HOME.

I think the difference is I do lots of tweaking this and that and changing this and that and maybe its my fault in that I push buttons too quick.

But on the job , NO issues at all. Same as Frans first experience as noted above, I turn on at a gig and then turn off at the end.

Dennis
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 12:34 AM

Spalding, also, Dom has been quite upfront in saying there WAS an issue with the kernel (LINUX not MS) and the JACK load-up. He only got it confirmed about two weeks ago I think. But his latest patch has fixed that totally.
I betcha Yamaha/Korg/Roland dont provide a fix that quick, it take them weeks just to acknowledge there IS a problem in the first place, let alone provide a patch.



[This message has been edited by miden (edited 06-07-2009).]
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 12:35 AM

Thanks Dennis but i am confused. Are you taking responsibility for the failure of the MS to boot up (on the rare occasion) because you tweaked an instrument that is designed to be tweaked, i mean thats what the MS is all about isnt it ?

and you are correct. Yamaha , korg and roland would take months to fix an OS problem !

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-07-2009).]
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 12:40 AM

No no no...I have about 8 VST's running at the same time amongst other stuff, midis mp3's and the like.
Sometimes I get impatient and if a function doesn't immediately engage I keep pressing the button or just change my mind and go to another button for another task..

This action I think did the damage the other day. I was just too quick to blame someone else instead of me

Same as windows on my laptop.. I can freeze that pretty good too

The OTHER bootup problem I think I have answered well enough above. As has Fran.
Posted by: rikkisbears

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 12:53 AM

deleted

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 06-07-2009).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 12:54 AM

Actually Spalding that is not a misquote those were Diki’s words and no one else’s.

If you took the time to go back and read a lot of the post where Dom was adding “features” you would see that a lot of them were relating to style creation/editing. So substituting style creation/editing for “features” was not a misquote.

So if you and Diki want to play semantics with words or show that you don’t understand the MS go right ahead. But don’t accuse me of misquoting someone when it is clear that we have a difference of opinion whether the “features” that Dom were enhancing were general or whether they were for style creation/editing.


And if you read the past post you would see that Dom was making enhancements to help with style creation/editing (after all he was posting on an arranger forum). And that has been my point all along. Where as others seem to change their story and blaim others when their inconsistencies are brought to light.

Take for example when Dom was first releasing Qranger.

I would agree that it was a change to the OS. But it was also a way to enhance style creation/editing.

So Qranger was a “feature” (per Diki) but it was also a style creation/editing enhancement tool.

But I guess Diki and others are not able to understand that.

The over all theme of the detractors post on the MS were for Dom to give the technology a rest (technology they say arranger players are incapable of using) and concentrate on Content.

I was only pointing out now they have changed their story with respect to the Audya. The over all theme with respect to the Audya is for Ketron to give us more technology (the same technology they say arranger players are incapable of using).




[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 06-07-2009).]
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 02:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:

The over all theme of the detractors post on the MS were for Dom to give the technology a rest (technology they say arranger players are incapable of using) and concentrate on Content.

I was only pointing out now they have changed their story with respect to the Audya. The over all theme with respect to the Audya is for Ketron to give us more technology (the same technology they say arranger players are incapable of using).


genesys well said.

Qranger is totaly new concept with more future and simple editing tool.

Miden I'm sorry if you understand me wrong.
I know that you are really good user and fast student on MS. You find many inside things really fast and that is good.


And finally:

I played with my MS this weekend. MS was on stage for totally 16 hours. MS works 100% without any interruption. Voltage is usual 230 V. But at one place was 170 V. So if somebody says that MS can not play in any place is wrong. In three years was in winter at ( -15°C / +5 °F (Fahrenheit) ) at see cost where is big humidity and temperature +45°C / 113 °F (Fahrenheit). I played with MEDIASTATION at this temperature without problems.

So what I can say to DOMENICO is thank you for really good instrument. But I thing this is not enough.
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 05:25 AM

its not semantics Genesys. Its twisting words to mean one thing when they mean something else.

In Dikis last post he said

"Simple fix, genesys. Find ANY post where the editing tools for the MS are mentioned AT ALL. You can use the search engine as well as I can. Find it, quote it, then come back to this thread. Until then, stop putting words into anyone's mouth."


Here is the entire qoute of diki's post that you used to demonstrate this.

Read that again and tell me how you can interpret it to mean specifically that Diki is saying stop developing Style Editing features or style creation features .

"So much self-contradiction by the Mediastation users!
Is it 'unusable' or does it 'sound great'?

I believe that the Mediastation, in trying to be BOTH arranger and workstation, is still succeeding primarily in the workstation end, and has a long way to go as an arranger (at least from what I hear in the demos). As has been said many times on this forum, the vast majority of arranger users want two things..... tons of really good styles, and no need for extensive 'tweaking' OOTB.

Despite it's many stellar features, in these two categories the Mediastation still seems to fall flat. Far better to think of this keyboard as a workstation with a potentially good arranger section than to commit a lot of money on it in the hope that it will immediately be your primary arranger. From all accounts, you've got a fairly uphill road to travel before it is going to wow a T2 user with just it's arranger capabilities OOTB.....

As always, everyone says something is just around the corner that will fix everything, but they've been saying this since it came out. I don't buy an arranger for what it might potentially do, I'm interested in what I get for my money the day I take it out of the box. And I am afraid that is probably the attitude of most buyers.

Domenik, give the new 'features' a rest. Spend EVERYTHING you have on style and sound development for a year, THEN go back and start adding OS improvements. Your bottom line will thank you for this..."

Using your logic Genesys if Dom came up with a 'feature' that could make the onboard styles sound better than they are,(which was the context and objective of Diki's post) according to you Diki is telling Dom NOT TO DO THAT, which is completely opposite to what he is saying!!!

Thats what a misqoute is.Its to do with context and meaning. You have tried to imply specific meaning that is not within the context.

I cant make it more plain than that.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-07-2009).]
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 05:48 AM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 06:13 AM

Wrong again Spalding.

Spalding said: “Using your logic Genesys if Dom came up with a 'feature' that could make the onboard styles sound better than they are,(which was the context and objective of Diki's post) according to you Diki is telling Dom NOT TO DO THAT, which is completely opposite to what he is saying!!!”

And what do you think the development of qranger is?
What do you think developing certain types of VST integration on the MS would do for styles?

Again what you are failing to understand is that when Dom was posting about his developments, they were geared to enhancing onboard styles and to enhance style creation/editing.

If you can add audio tracks to an existing style, that would go towards style editing.

Now You may not agree with Dom’s method but most of Dom’s post were for style play and style creation/editing enhancements.

I just don’t know how else to make you understand that.
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 09:20 AM

so you think integrating VST into styles would make them sound better ??? Genesys,please provide just one example of a style on the MS and then the same style using VST's. Just one...... I will wait....

Whilst you are doing that let me make this point and then i will wait for your demo. Integrating VST sounds into poorly programmed styles , unbalanced styles, poorly EQ'd styles (which is the context of the critism of the MS arranger side) will simply produce poorly programmed styles, unbalanced styles poorly EQ'd styles oh yes ...with VST's........oops and i forgot audio.

The one thing that makes the difference is the programmer who programmes has to reprogramme the style. And thats the issue in terms of having editing features on either the Audya or Ms. With the Audya if you have the skill you are restricted by the tools available to edit the styles on the Audya. With the MS you have to have the skill to programme great styles because there are too few great ones onboard. I haven't heard a great one yet.

Its been over 4 years.. but maybe you can finally show what can be done on the MS.......... Thanks for debating with me Genesys :-)

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-07-2009).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 10:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
so you think integrating VST into styles would make them sound better ??? Genesys,please provide just one example of a style on the MS and then the same style using VST's. Just one...... I will wait....

Whilst you are doing that let me make this point and then i will wait for your demo. Integrating VST sounds into poorly programmed styles , unbalanced styles, poorly EQ'd styles (which is the context of the critism of the MS arranger side) will simply produce poorly programmed styles, unbalanced styles poorly EQ'd styles oh yes ...with VST's........oops and i forgot audio.

The one thing that makes the difference is the programmer who programmes has to reprogramme the style. And thats the issue in terms of having editing features on either the Audya or Ms. With the Audya if you have the skill you are restricted by the tools available to edit the styles on the Audya. With the MS you have to have the skill to programme great styles because there are too few great ones onboard. I haven't heard a great one yet.

Its been over 4 years.. but maybe you can finally show what can be done on the MS.......... Thanks for debating with me Genesys :-)

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-07-2009).]


Well obviously I can not provide that demo because I do not have a MS.

And yes you do have to have skill when working with VSTs.
If some one bought the MS because of the fact that it could use VSTs, then presumably they would have use VST before and they would have known that there is some skills required in using them.

And yes if you have a style on the MS that you want to change more to your liking, you could do that with VSTs and with detailed editing if the MS allow for detailed editing. Detail editing like adjusting velocity, shifting a note, basically event editing.

Whether you doing style creation/editing on the G70, T3, MS, PA2x or Audya, you have to have the skills; no getting around that.


Good debating with you.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 11:04 AM

There was no debate here... You have to have a point that is valid before there IS an actual debate. Here is the original post on the thread you quoted, genesys.
Quote:

In about 10 days, we wil release the new Linuxsampler 4.0, with 128 Midi channels integrated in the MS OS.

Now I'm working to create/edit the big Soundbank: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/images/LSampler4.jpg
and then I'm ready to release the new ISO 1.4.
Just some days more patience...


Please tell me where any of that refers to sound and style editing?

The thing is, just about ANY feature, if you take as broad a definition as you have taken, no matter WHAT it does, COULD, if you were maniacally one-tracked minded about it, be taken as tangentially pertaining to style editing. Even turning on the machine and booting up has to do with style editing (because you can't edit styles while it is switched off! ). So, I guess by YOUR broad definition of the term, then yes, I asked for style development to go on hiatus while he worked on the styles. As absurd as that premise is, have it your way...

Mind you, there appears to be sufficient absurdity to go around. Here you are, championing the MS, telling those of us that are MORE than cognizant exactly what you can and can't do with an MS (for Pete's sake... if you have actually READ my posts once again, you would have read that I have an extensive VSTi collection based round my computer, and have been using them since the very start of the protocol). Trouble is, apparently, you don't actually HAVE an MS! So, what's the deal? Where's your major malfunction? Why don't you have one? If it is THAT superior, why are you using that piece of s**t whatever you DO have? By your own admission, you understand the MS no better than anyone else who hasn't got one!

What is this, Debating 101 at high school? Pick ANY position, and argue it no matter how little you actually know? I am sorry, but I'm done with you. This wasn't a debate, it was a debacle. And I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 06-07-2009).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
There was no debate here... You have to have a point that is valid before there IS an actual debate. Here is the original post on the thread you quoted, genesys.
Please tell me where any of that refers to sound and style editing?

The thing is, just about ANY feature, if you take as broad a definition as you have taken, no matter WHAT it does, COULD, if you were maniacally one-tracked minded about it, be taken as tangentially pertaining to style editing. Even turning on the machine and booting up has to do with style editing (because you can't edit styles while it is switched off! ). So, I guess by YOUR broad definition of the term, then yes, I asked for style development to go on hiatus while he worked on the styles. As absurd as that premise is, have it your way...

Mind you, there appears to be sufficient absurdity to go around. Here you are, championing the MS, telling those of us that are MORE than cognizant exactly what you can and can't do with an MS (for Pete's sake... if you have actually READ my posts once again, you would have read that I have an extensive VSTi collection based round my computer, and have been using them since the very start of the protocol). Trouble is, apparently, you don't actually HAVE an MS! So, what's the deal? Where's your major malfunction? Why don't you have one? If it is THAT superior, why are you using that piece of s**t whatever you DO have? By your own admission, you understand the MS no better than anyone else who hasn't got one!

What is this, Debating 101 at high school? Pick ANY position, and argue it no matter how little you actually know? I am sorry, but I'm done with you. This wasn't a debate, it was a debacle. And I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 06-07-2009).]


Remember that the cry was that the sounds that the MS use for styles and the styles themselves did not sound good so Dom was in his own way trying to fix that problem.

Any intelligent person would have gotten from past post on the MS that there was a call for DOM to stop technology development and concentrate on content. Now after the fact some people want to play semantics in order to avoid sounding contradictory.


Whether or not you agree with his approach is a different story. You would have preferred Dom getting musicians to program the styles. However, Dom’s approach is he will give the user the technical tools to create new styles and edit existing styles best suited for them.

I never said you don’t use VSTs. So I don’t know where you got that from. While I do not have an MS, like you, I use VSTs to on a computer to help in production. On my arranger, I also include sample sounds in my user styles. That is another feature that Dom was developing for the MS. VSTs on the MS is just but one of many features on the MS.
So know one is saying you do not know how to use VSTs, computer and musical instruments. Actually I think your vast knowledge and experience could be what is preventing you from understanding the concept of the MS.

The concern is whether persons actually understand the concept of the MS.

You can not say the MS should be like a T2 OTB and say you understand the concept of the MS. They are two completely different things. Comparing both and trying to make one like the other only demonstrates a lack of understanding of one.

When I said good debating with you I was referring to Spalding.
Interesting you should use the word “debacle” because that is how I would characterize the unraveling of your prier post on the MS and the apparent need to now step away from them by subtle technicalities and definition of terms.


[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 06-07-2009).]
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 12:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Well obviously I can not provide that demo because I do not have a MS.



Please answer me these questions.

What kind(s) of arranger(s) do you own, genesys? Do you you play "live" and do you use an arranger when you do?

Are you using VST's "live" or is it just for studio work?

Why do you not have a Mediastation? It seems to be the ideal VST player.

Thanks in advance.

Ian
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 01:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Please answer me these questions.

What kind(s) of arranger(s) do you own, genesys? Do you you play "live" and do you use an arranger when you do?

Are you using VST's "live" or is it just for studio work?

Why do you not have a Mediastation? It seems to be the ideal VST player.

Thanks in advance.

Ian


I use the Gem Genesys.
I play live.
I do use the arranger feature.

I do not use VSTs live )I do not carry a computer to a gig). Right now I just use them in the studio.

I don’t have a MS because I am not ready to buy another arranger at this time. When I am actually ready to buy another arranger the MS would be on my list.


BTW the ability to play VSTs would only be one consideration for me. At the time I am ready to buy another arranger I will evaluate what’s on the market and make my decision from there.
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 01:39 PM

Genesys you said

"Well obviously I can not provide that demo because I do not have a MS."

And yes you do have to have skill when working with VSTs.
If some one bought the MS because of the fact that it could use VSTs, then presumably they would have use VST before and they would have known that there is some skills required in using them."

This is the crux of the matter Genesys. Making great styles has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your ability to work with VSt's or Qranger or Livestyler or any other feature on the MS OR ANY OTHER KEYBOARD. Understanding how to use VSTs or any other feature requires ZERO MUSICAL ABILITY/SKILL. Let me use a practical non music example. I can coach you in all the technical steps involved in making a jumpshot in basketball but to actually score takes skill ! Similarly i can theorise about how the Qranger, or live styler features or the use of VST's can help you make great styles however non of those things will help you make great styles beacuse great music is 100% SKILL DEPENDANT.

And i am sorry that you cant provide an example of a great style made from the MS with all these style enhancing features . I really wish you did own one because after 4-5 years i am still waiting for an MS owner or the manufacturer to do it.After so long somebody somewhere must be close to doing it surely ?......Surely !



[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-07-2009).]
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 01:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
I use the Gem Genesys.
I play live.
I do use the arranger feature.



Thanks for your reply, Genesys.

Do you use the on-board CD burner and recorder, or do use a software sequencer like Sonar or Cakewalk?

In other words, is the CD burner and on-board sequencer of any use to you?

Looks and sounds like a nice keyboard (I listened to the demos)...do you mind the 5 octave keybed, or do you use a controller along with the Genesys?

Ian
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 03:48 PM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/07/09 05:17 PM

The CD burner is just that you can make a data CD to back up data or you can make an Audio CD to play on a regular CD player. You can also play music CDs on the Genesys.

The Genesys is no substitute for an audio sequencer (you can only record one take of audio). However it can come in handy when you are not near a computer and you need to get a quick CD with your music to some one.
(I have had productions played and recorded on the Genesys play on local radio stations).

The CD burner is useful but not essential. I wish the Genesys had USB.


I have to use the 61 key Genesys since they did not offer a 76 key one (they have an 88 key but you can not travel with that.)
I don’t use it with a 76 key controller as that is too much gear to carry around.

Just to be sure, I use the Genesys pro S and not the original genesys.
I know I have been saying Genesys as that is what I am accustom to call it but there are differences between the Genesys, Genesys pro, Genesys S, Genesys pro S, Genesys pro or, Genesys xp and Genesys ensemble.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/08/09 01:00 PM

What list, genesys? You say if you get a new arranger, the MS is on the list? With as rabid a 'defense' of the MS as you have just shown (sputter all you want, you HAVE misquoted me and put words into my mouth I have NEVER said), and the obvious awe you hold for this keyboard, what other arranger could possibly be on the list? Nothing else has it's capabilities, not even Wersi.

You would only be contradicting your own statements (and joining the ranks of those who 'obviously don't understand' the MS) if you chose anything else.

Come to think of it, I REALLY look forward to you getting one. Upon which, we probably won't hear word one from you ever again, while you struggle with the problems that are so obvious to most everyone else While POTENTIALLY being very 'open', the skill to turn an essentially empty shell into a gig ready machine has yet to be demonstrated by any MS owner to my knowledge (Serbian players excepted, who basically have no CHOICE when it comes to getting styles for their market), unless they are content to play PSR styles into a PSR sound set.

If THAT is your definition of gig ready, why not just buy a PSR and a V-Machine?

You are completely unwilling to demonstrate what you already DO use, which leads anyone but the most gullible into believing that it compares poorly to what is currently available, and also leads us to believe that, should you ever get an MS (as if there should be any choice, given your worship of it), you will also join the ranks of all those who have castigated us for 'not getting it', while at the same time, completely incapable of posting any music that proves that THEY do....

In FOUR YEARS of waiting, you can count on the fingers of ONE HAND the music that has been made on an MS that wasn't a complete joke (including the factory demos) that got posted here. Given your unwillingness to show that you even can do what you claim on your current arranger, no-one in their right minds is expecting you to show that you 'get it' on the MS. No-one else that owns one here 'gets it' AND posts music to back it up. Why would you be any different?

I am utterly fed up with all these 'theoretical' defenses of a piece of gear that no-one is proud enough of their music to POST IT. Korg owners, Yamaha owners, Ketron owners, Roland owners... None of these make excuses for why they don't post. They are HAPPY to post what they do.

Only MS users (and you) got some kind of reason. We wouldn't 'get it', we 'don't understand the capabilities', there's no one standard for 'good' (if that's not bullshit, what is?! )... All I am hearing is 'It sucks, and we don't want to get caught proving we don't know what we are talking about'.

And only great style driven music, posted by owners, will make me think otherwise.
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/08/09 01:38 PM

Diki I refer you to these...I actually posted them much earlier in this thread but you gyts have been so intent on chipping at each other you may have missed them...They are from magica alfa and in my view they are not the "joke" you seem to think all the demos are...Here is the paste in of the links:
_________________________________________
In fact a SZ member Magica Alfa has done some demos using partly audio style creation and utilising the many great Giga/Linux sampler sounds... http://www.esnips.com/doc/c775b069-a794-4bc0-afa7-2e28dab983cd/Pop-1 http://www.esnips.com/doc/152919db-7637-4bb9-a7ea-30ea7a55f470/Style-Funky http://www.esnips.com/doc/dd35fe8c-73d7-42ab-bbee-ed444edd229e/HOUSE-STYLE
_____________________________________________

Dennis
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/08/09 04:56 PM

1. Pop 1

it was ok. Dont know what effect Magic Alfa had on the rythm guitar but it didnt sound right to me but thats just personal taste.
It was a solid basic style but clearly a home made style (and i mean no disrespect to Magic)

2.Style funky

Liked the accoustic guitar initially. The style is fine but a couple of the chord changes showed that the wrong NTT had been used. Listen to bass line move in the style. This was a good start and a basic style but i liked it but again , not a yamaha or korg killer and I did not expect it to be . However these two styles could have been made on practically any arranger and sounded just as good.

3. House style

This one was my favourite . I can tell Magic had a ball putting it together. sounded great and was well balnaced but i doubt you could play this style with more than two chords. This is a great example of the Qranger (correct me if i am wrong Magic) however its patchwork music. Cutting and pasting grooves from a sound library into a pattern . cant play complex chiors with it . Same problem with the Audy. it is just a step up from plugging in an ipod and making your own mix tape (now i am showing my age) :-)

These are good user demos and Magic is clearly having fun with his instrument and i cant and wont knock that. all i would say is that all the tools, features and gimmicks that are being stuffed into the MS simply underline the point that what it really needs is goods styles and there is no running away from it.
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/08/09 05:49 PM

Actually Spalding you are wrong about
"Cutting and pasting grooves from a sound library into a pattern . cant play complex chiors with it"

If the loop is a C13 for example, the Audio Elastique engine changes the pitch whilst the style is running...Play G and it transposes to a G13, play a D and it transposes to a D13...ALL in realtime.

Magica is far FAR more experienced in this than I am so he may be able to explain it better, but it is nowhere near an Audya in its complexity and how it works.

It is way AHEAD of the Audya when it comes to dealing with audio samples and loops.

Dennis
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/09/09 07:33 AM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/09/09 12:08 PM

maybe i have got it wrong then Miden . My understanding was that the Qranger could stretch the range of the note but not alter the chord so for instance, if i past a guitar riff that is playing say a Dminor 9th chord and i play an F Major 7th chord the Qranger would stretch the chord to Fminor 9th but could not morph or mimick the F major 7th ??? is my understanding correct ?

Thats why i said that the style could not play complex chords meaning the chords i play not the chords the original audio was recorded as playing. Sorry if the statement was inaccurate.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/09/09 01:14 PM

Can anyone email these to me. For some reason (probably that I have a somewhat older computer and not the latest OSX) my browser won't play esnips content.

However, I have always been aware that you can do loop construction with the MS. But, as spalding points out, that is a LONG way from being an 'arranger'. In fact, it is much more like WS's currently are. For trance styles, and hiphop, with their limited chord needs, this is cool. But try to play Desafinado on ANY of these types of things...! OK, that's an extreme example, but really... the whole POINT of an arranger and styles is to be able to play any music you want to on a style that you pick. Not have the style as the song itself, and IT picks what you can and can't play on it.

One of the HUGE drawbacks with transposing a loop, as opposed to a MIDI arranger playing a different chord, is that, with the loop, EVERYTHING gets transposed identically. There are no 'wraparound' points for different sounds, there are no different NTT's for guitar chords, there are no rules to prevent a bassline (or any instrument) from going outside it's natural range... As long as you stick to synth sounds, this is not such a big deal. But real instruments, playing real music ( ), don't behave at all like this.

Modern MIDI arrangers have all kinds of sophisticated algorithms to stop the 'parallel chords' problem, and keep getting better and better at programming realistic playing techniques such as voice leading and inversion following, some guitar modes recognize where in the chord recognition area you are playing your trigger chord, and adjust the chord's inversion on the virtual guitar neck. Loops can't do ANY of this stuff. But it merely takes better and better sampled instruments to take these into near totally convincing country, and you get all the advantages of a loop (realism... that's about it!) with none of it's disadvantages (which are legion).

A loop is a loop is a loop. You can change it's pitch (globally) and you can speed it up or down. But you can't do a FRACTION of what you can do to a MIDI loop...

For people that play synth music, trance, techno, hiphop, rap, the MS looper tools seem great. But at real music played on real instruments, it still, IMO has a LONG way to go to beat MIDI.falls short
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/09/09 02:43 PM

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/09/09 03:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
maybe i have got it wrong then Miden . My understanding was that the Qranger could stretch the range of the note but not alter the chord so for instance, if i past a guitar riff that is playing say a Dminor 9th chord and i play an F Major 7th chord the Qranger would stretch the chord to Fminor 9th but could not morph or mimick the F major 7th ??? is my understanding correct ?

Thats why i said that the style could not play complex chords meaning the chords i play not the chords the original audio was recorded as playing. Sorry if the statement was inaccurate.


Sorry Spalding I did misunderstand, yes what you say there is accuarate it will stretch the chord, but it will still be the same chord type and inversion.

But I suppose if someone is willing to put in a chord (remember its all in C usually) that covers the major and minor forms, prob 5 would be enough for most songs, you could get more complex chordal recognition using audio.

I am just starting to experiment with audio styles now, so I may have some results in a couple of weeks.

Dennis

Edited to add: Yes Magicas explanation there is perfect. Shoudl make it a lot clearer. Better than I could

So to add to mine, if you dont want to stretch chords you can save WITH the style every realtime guitar chord you want to use.

I think basslines are nto as important to use audio for as you can get very realistic and genuine bass lines using midi to drive the sampler.

For me the ability to have REAL guitars happening in styles is what I really want.

I can play enough in the keys area to cover all of that as I can have several VST's layered and playing at the same time on the MS using the Combi mode. These I can play along wiht the style.

No note limitations yet Diki and NO dropouts audio OR note...my max Combi layer so far is 4 instruments.

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 06-09-2009).]
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/09/09 03:11 PM

Thanks for that Miden. So what Magic Alpha is saying if i undersatnd him correctly is that for each style in the Qranger that you create you will have to paste in very conceviable chord lets say for the rythm guitar and the same again for lets say your horn section and then the same again for your organ and then repeat the whole excersise again for each style variation if you want the style to recognise every chord ????? So you would need to find a guitar loop for every chord using the same to make the sound seem audibly seamless ?
How is that different to what the Audya has done or is trying to do ???? It has taken the Audya 3 or more years to get here with a whole production team behind it. How long would it take one musician to just make 50 good styles that would work no matter what chord type you threw at it ??????? Or have i completely misunderstood you magic Alpha ?

I have the PA1X. If i wanted to i could create the 1st style variation by recording each instrument into one Chord Variation (CV) and have different chord recognistion types per instrument in that one CV. So for example i can programme a guitar riff in CV1 that only triggers when i play a dimished chord. in CV2 I can programme a different guitar riff that only triggers when i play a Minor 9th chord. I can have horn stabbs that only trigger when i paly any 13th chord . I can keep doing this for up to 6 CV and thats only for the 1st style Variation (i can have up to 4 complete style variations for each complete style excluding fillins,breaks endings and intro's. Thats the level of depth i could go into in making a style. But for most styles i only use 2 CVs because the keyboard will play quite happily most chord types correctly.But by programming this way i can creat a feeling of liveness in a style by simply playing different chords to trigger a different feel to the music. It takes skill but thats why i dont change keyboard often so i can really dig into its features. Lots of style making is intuitive and a great deal of trial and error but for the most part the skill needed to creat great styles is hugely underestimated.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-09-2009).]
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/09/09 03:26 PM

I think Spalding that once the guitar chords were recorded you would store them on the hard drive and simply paste them in for whatever future style you were creating.

For close chords where the pitch change is minor (read small) you could use a fixed chord and let the Elastique engine transpose for you, for bigger jumps wehere we know audio gets to "chipmunky" and faster, you could paste in your specific chord.

So yes it would take some time to get the chords recorded tweaked and saved to the hard drive, but after that placing them in styles would be relatively easy....

By the way I have to be honest and say that is supposition at this stage by me based on my knowledge at this time.. Maybe Magica can provide some more REAL experience to the discussion.

But I will say that as we all know some styles are very simple and will only require maybe 4 chord variations, others are more complex.

The beauty of the MS system is you can set up whatever you want in whatever style you want.

I actually mucked around with an MP3 song in the Qranger and inserted markers at the change points and named them variation 1,2 etc..and I was able to recall this "style" via the style engine playing the song live as it were.

Now it it was a bit glitchy between parts but that was because I did not slice the MP3 at all, I just loaded it up raw and assigned markers. But it does show what can be done.

I reckon you could record audio parts of a specific song, as seperate audio samples and then assign these to parts and I think you would get a pretty good result.

The thing with the MS is there is so much a user CAN do.. A users imagination is pretty much the limit really. And their willingness for a bit of work will help too

Dennis
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/09/09 03:54 PM

yes Miden i am sure what you are saying is true but the whole point of an arranger is that i can use the same style for pretty much ANY SONG and not just specifically for one song.

For example i work with a few choirs at my church. We might sing a particular song in a slow balad style . Some madness might take me (its been known to happen :-)) and i decide to speed the song up and use a funk groove style , i can do that instantly with my PAX. Now lets say the choir are really feeling the style and we jump to a completely different song same key but with completely different chord changes, how would i do this with the Qranger and using markers ????? I can understand how i could use that in a studio where i have ample time to decide what fits where but not live . Do you see my point ?
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/09/09 03:54 PM

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/09/09 04:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
yes Miden i am sure what you are saying is true but the whole point of an arranger is that i can use the same style for pretty much ANY SONG and not just specifically for one song.

For example i work with a few choirs at my church. We might sing a particular song in a slow balad style . Some madness might take me (its been known to happen :-)) and i decide to speed the song up and use a funk groove style , i can do that instantly with my PAX. Now lets say the choir are really feeling the style and we jump to a completely different song same key but with completely different chord changes, how would i do this with the Qranger and using markers ????? I can understand how i could use that in a studio where i have ample time to decide what fits where but not live . Do you see my point ?


Yes I do see your point, and I also understand where you are coming from on it

Unfortunately my knowledge is now exhausted and you may have to wait for Magica or Dom to should some more light on it. Sorry.

As I said I am now starting to muck around withe the audio/ midi style system, so maybe in a few weeks I will have some more hands-on info to pass on.
Up to now I have been setting up, tweaking setups as I go along after live shows, and generally getting all the basics covered so I can then have more time for experimenting.

Dennis
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/09/09 04:16 PM

it sounds great but thats not the same as the PA1X. The pax already recognises most of the chord types including rootless chords. Not just 6. The CV on the korg allows in effect 6 different sounding patterns for every instrument in one style variation depending on the chord you play. So its the chords that triggers the mini style variation within each major variation. I probably am not explaining this very well....

The problem with the Qranger as i understand it is that if you wish to have Audio in a style that will recognise most of the chords that any other arranger automatically recognises you have to paste into the style all chord variations of that sampled piece of audio . Is that correct or not ?

Which is the same premise for the Audya isnt it ? Which is why for certain chords the Audio drops out and midi notes kick in because Ketron realised the mamoth task of recording all the audio sounds in every chord variation ????

.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-09-2009).]
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/09/09 04:24 PM

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/09/09 05:09 PM

I am talking about the Audio element Magic Alfa. not the midi.Are you saying that if you recorda real audio guitar riff in Dminor, it will recognise and play correctly 36 different chord types from this single piece of Audio ? Are you sure ??
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/09/09 10:01 PM

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/10/09 05:12 AM

I thing AFG Music and Spalding1968 you thing maybe on that:

You can play audio file for major and it MS will recognized all tones 13. But that will not be possible for all 36 chords. So If you will use that in audio is harder way But is possible. If will be used chords in VST like REAL GUITAR 2L than you can change all 36 chords because this VST is really good for recognitions of chords.

If you want you can have one style for major one for minor etc in other hand: that means in same time also that minor is different variation than major. Here is no more limited creativity.

But also if you want you can make same thing with only one major style and minor… etc is played on this base.

Good thing is that you can use for each channel different VST or AUDIO file. Qranger is simple for use but is having so many advantages that nobody can use all.

GOOD LINK AFG Music:
http://www.easy-share.com/1905619130/QrangerManualOS3.pdf]http://www.easy-share.com/1905619130/QrangerManualOS3.pdf


BR Magica Alfa
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/10/09 11:59 AM

sorry to sound stupid. I read through the manual but did not really understand what i was reading. Please qoute the part of the manual where it explains that any audio you stream from the hard drive will be transposed or stretched into either 13 or 36 different chord shapes.

If the manual doesnt say this explicitly then please explain so i can understand how one audio loop of for example a guitar track where in an up stroke several differnt notes are played in say a Dminor and a down stroke a D7 can all be stretched/transposed differently to sound like accurate or even acceptable when you hold down a Bminor9 chord?

I undertand the concept of stretching the entire audio up or down but how does it alter one piece of audio into different elements that each have to be altered lowered or hightened differently ?

Magic Alfa if you are comfortable in doing this can you post up an example of an audio guitar riff that you have imported into a style and show us a few chord changes. Not just straight major and minor chords but some 13ths 9ths and 7ths. Thanks so much for helping me undestand this new technology.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-10-2009).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/10/09 12:45 PM

I'm sorry, but these numbers are just staggering. Over 1000 separate elements to make one style?

Can we just step back a bit here, and pretend we are in the real world? You know, the one where the vast majority of arranger PLAYERS can't even put a simple MIDI style together that rivals the ROM styles... You see, this is a forum for arranger PLAYERS. I don't know if there is one for the professionals that design the styles for the manufacturers and TOTL style houses, but it ain't here! (wish it was, mind you )

Most of us have lives... most of us have families... most of us have JOBS. Where is the time supposed to come from to make ONE of these styles, let alone the hundreds that you need to gig?

When the Audya was first released, I posted a fair bit about their claim that the guitar section was going to to be all audio. I felt at the time (and have since been proven right) that the sheer quantity of loops necessary to make even ONE style that covered sufficient chords to be usable for any song was daunting to make. Even with time stretching and pitch shifting (which introduce artifacts easily noticeable when taken past a certain point - to the point that even Ketron had to have TWO completely different sets of loops to cover a decent tempo range), you are looking at hundreds of different loops to cover just the main chord types and their popular extensions.

Unfortunately, the MS has no special way to add MIDI guitar notes to basic chords to extend the range they can (albeit halfassedly ), so you are back to HAVING to find these chord loops. Let's just look at the major chord, shall we?

Maj, Maj(no 3rd), Maj(add2), Maj(b5), Maj6, Dom7th, Maj(maj7), Maj(6,9), Maj b9, Maj7#9, Maj 11, Maj 13, and so on and so forth.

Now lets think about the minors. And then the diminished. And then the augmented. And then the sus. Half diminished.

Where does one even GET a well recorded library of ALL those chords, let alone in four or so variations and several fills (and someone explain to me how Intros and Endings can have whatever you want on a real guitar in them), and hundreds of different styles in just about any genre you can think of?

It is the sheer scale of the work involved to do this task that many don't take into account. Ketron sure couldn't manage it, and they have gobs of money, talented players and recording facilities that none of us do. They ended up with a system that does maj, min and some (but not all) 7ths. It's all very well to say you COULD do something. Heck, we all COULD be astronauts If only... we were astronaut material, and dedicated our whole lives to it..!

But back in the REAL WORLD, most of us haven't the time, skill, patience, chops, creativity, technical skills, recording skills, and sheer bloodymindedness to actually do this. Not for the quantity we actually NEED, if even for ONE style. What got our juices flowing (and then dried them up ) was Ketron's announcement that THEY WERE GOING TO DO IT FOR US (and subsequent inability to do so).

Look, IF you had ALL the skills necessary to style up an MS to it's potential, I'm sorry, but you would already BE a top player and recording artist, engineer, whatever... and you wouldn't in the slightest be interested in wasting your time on a bloody arranger! You'd be playing with the best people in the business, making more money than the arranger industry can afford. How do I know this? Because this is EXACTLY what has happened..! Dom can't afford to hire people to do this task for us, Ketron couldn't afford to hire people to do this task (in it's entirety) for us, and nobody, including ALL the MS cheerleaders on this forum can't do it for us. What on earth make anyone think we could all do it for ourselves?

Sure, make little half-assed audio styles that don't play many chords, and take forever making them (not to mention the cost of purchasing the loop libraries they use), and you can CLAIM it can be done. Now, go away and come back when you have a couple of hundred styles, all capable of playing ANY chord the user wants, in any style the user wants, at any tempo the user wants. And then tell us how much it costs...

If Dom can't afford it, if Ketron couldn't afford to do it, how are WE supposed to...???
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/10/09 04:04 PM

I have library with all chords. This is use of giga sounds and ordinary midi.

That type is good, but i rely like other way: VST of REAL GUITARIST is playing chords and you are having with that possibility to make your own riff in major and that one is playing for all chords. Also complex. Same thing I made in past with VIRTUAL GUITARIST That is one simple midi part. you can make style like song in C major on your qranger in same way as cubase or sonor etc or you can import midi file in qranger.

Exapmle of complex use: Major is as one part, minor different bass or different other instruments but in maj7 it will play style from MAJOR converted to the 7 if you will not make your own. It is hard to understand that, but it is logical calculaction. You can not be afraid that you need to do all chords. All chord that will not be done will be taken from major.

And audio part. I use for drums, some effects and back live singer audio recorded. Here is elastique really perfect. for all chords and any transpose.

I hope that this answer will help you.
I'm sorry also in this days i have not at home MS, because we are playing each day. I will make some demo in next days, when I will be at home with MS.

BR Magica ALFA
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/10/09 05:29 PM

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: rikkisbears

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/10/09 05:37 PM

Hi Magica,
I read the manual also, & without a ms in front of me, couldn't make any sense out of it either.

Are you saying it adds the missing notes
ie c maj chord c e g
for cmaj7th chord (cegb) it automatically adds the b note, or does it transpose one of the existing notes ( c, or e, or g )to a b note.
best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Magica Alfa:
[B]

Exapmle of complex use: Major is as one part, minor different bass or different other instruments but in maj7 it will play style from MAJOR converted to the 7 if you will not make your own.
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/10/09 05:50 PM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/10/09 06:10 PM

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/11/09 10:45 AM

AFG Music tell me from the technical data or show me from the data you have just copied and pasted where it indicates that the AUDIO can play all the chords you have mentioned. NOT THE MIDI.

I read this

"The MAJ chord is the default MANDATARY chord, IF any other Chords TAB are NOT present on the session, the Virtual Chords table will
processing the all midi events found on the MAJ Chord TAB to the new chords pressed
on the keyboard. Example: you can have ONLY the MAJ chord TAB and you press the
chord 7th, the Virtual Chords table will processing the all midi event from MAJ chord to
7th Chord automatically."

Where is a similar statement for the Audio element ?

I know that Audio can be played with the midi but thats not the same as the audio will play the same chords as the midi.

To play 36 guitar chords you would need to record 36 guitar strums one for each chord type then map them to the Qranger so that when you play C minor 9 it streams that piece of audio ie the strum that was done in C minor 9. and it will transpose that to d minor or f minor if thats the chord you are playing on the keyboard and so on... Have i understood that correctly because the manual doesnt help at all :-)

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-11-2009).]
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/11/09 11:49 AM

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/11/09 03:54 PM

maybe we are just not speaking the same language.

The melodyne clip showed single audio notes being analysed and strecthed which i know the qranger can do .The difference to what i want to see demonstrated is that the audio is monophonic. The entire audio is one note to the melodyme. and the Melodyme can play chords from that one note. There is no confusion there . What i want is proof that the Qranger can transpose audio chords into different audio chords correctly. The Melodyme cannot do that.

I saw the you tube clip. Can you tell me what chords you were playing because it looked to me like you were playing basic major and maybe minor triads. Although i heard the pitch change i could not tell if you had changed chord type or what chords you played in terms of their complexity. I know the Qranger was following the bottom note on the keyboard but i could not tell if it followed the chord.

For example you moved from a c major to an E flat major so the pitch moved from the C to E but i could not tell from the clip if you played a different chord type. In the example the audio clip where they sang the phrase " go waste no time following you no more" when you changed chord the harmonies shifted but the entire harmony stretched in unison. Meaning the intervals or the notes were the same distance apart. I could not tell if the voices reflected the chord type because all you used were (from what i could see ) were basic triads which i know the Qranger can do.

But i asked about complex chords.

What would have been a good example is if you kept the same key say C but played a minor chord and then a major chord and then say an 9th or 13th or diminished or flattened 6th all in the same key to the same piece of audio,(not the entire track, just an 8 bar loop because the entire track had changed some chords itself and it got confusing) )to see how that affected the harmonies and whether they moved uniformly or in accordance with the actual chord type.

That popular Guitar riff that you punched in from time to time before you started the next piece of music was not in the same key as the main body of the music. What was going on there ? You need to demonstrate the different types of chord IN THE SAME KEY. That would show clearly whether the audio could adapt to the type of chord NOT THE PITCH OF THE CHORD.

I hope i havent confused you. I am not trying to be dificult. I just want to understand and be clear what this thing can do because if it is actually able to do what you say it can then we really do have t
an amazing additional feature on an arranger that should be the main selling point of the MS. The whole problem with Styles would be redundant.




[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-11-2009).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/11/09 04:52 PM

Did anyone notice that Melodyne is NOT a realtime operation? You can't integrate this into the style engine and have it change maj7 into min7 in realtime. It's an offline process. Sure, it will help you change a loop that doesn't have the chord you need into one that you do (albeit I haven't seen anything other than those easy to edit patterns they use in the demo), but you are STILL faced with the daunting task of hand editing every guitar loop so that it covers all possible needs. For every style, for every variation, for every fill.

Once again, where is the time for this? Would you care to comment about whether you HAVE actually made a style that uses audio only for the guitar chords, and can play ANY chord, and at ANY tempo (withing reason). How many loops did you use, and how long did it take you to make it? An audio example of it might help...

All I'm saying is... If it is THAT easy, and that quick to do, you are going to make a FORTUNE selling these styles to those of us that DON'T have the time, patience and skill to do it for ourselves. Or quickly find out that they take too long to do to make it worth your time. That is, if they even impress us enough. Oh, and don't forget... if you use a commercial loop library, you will have to get a licensing deal with the original producer of the content. Oops! There goes the profit!

I really CAN see how this stuff is great for trance, electronica, hiphop, etc.. No-one expects to be able to play a Min(maj7) in that style. But for the kind of music that most people DO use arrangers for, jazz, oldies, schlager, party music etc., complete guitar libraries are going to be essential.

Dom brought the MS out as essentially a MIDI based arranger with VSTi capabilities. Even back then he couldn't afford to hire good people to pack it with cutting edge TOTL styles. Now he has added all this complex audio loop technology, and all of a sudden things are going to get BETTER? I don't think so.
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/11/09 05:56 PM

spalding1968 you are confused to becouse the keyboard player on yutobe video is not me but domenico from lionstracs italy
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/11/09 08:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
lool at this site:
http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=plugin1

you can also use this plugin with Qranger.

but about pitch shifting qranger use zplane elasteque pro plugin. the zplane can hande polyphonic picth shifting. qranger is so devolped that the pitch shifting can happend by pressing chords on keyboard. you can do more like play a mp3 song and press chords on keyboards and the mp3 song wil play in the same pitch as the pressed chord. for this option you can use audio songplayer.


"To play 36 guitar chords you would need to record 36 guitar strums one for each chord type then map them to the Qranger so that when you play C minor 9 it streams that piece of audio ie the strum that was done in C minor 9. and it will transpose that to d minor or f minor if thats the chord you are playing on the keyboard and so on... Have i understood that correctly because the manual doesnt help at all" correct you can do this to

one more demo video from first qranger release
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63S5PCbR8ro&feature=channel_page

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-11-2009).]

Glad to see that the MS is answering the call to appeal to younger players.
Their use of audio in styles is just what this younger market wants. This way the MS plays audio with styles as we would probably all agree is good for modern styles like hiphop, trans R and B and so on.


So the call has been answered by the MS for a manufacturer to make a keyboard geared to the modern player and not just the traditional player.
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/11/09 10:41 PM

But the question still remains unanswered...... Can the Audio playback on the MS Qranger play complex chords from ONE PIECE OF AUDIO simply through stretching or does the user have to use 36 separate streams of audio in the correct chord type like a guitar playing Maj 6th, Maj 7th, Maj 7th -5, Maj 7th
#11, add9, Maj 7th 9, 6 9, -5, Aug, Aug 7th, Aug Maj 7th, Min, Min 6th, Min 7th, Min add9, Min 7th 9th, Min 7th 11th, Min Maj 7th -5, Min Maj
7th, Min Maj 7th 9th, Dim, Dim 7th, 7th, 7th Sus4, 7th 9th, 7th #11th, 7th 13th, 7th -5, 7th -9, 7th -13, 7th #9th, Sus4, Sus2, Maj 7th Sus4,
Dim Maj 7th .
Before the Qranger will ACCURATLEY play back that chord.

Please there needs to be an answer to this question or people will be buying an instrument thinking they can use it just like an arranger but with real audio when the practicalities are that they simply cant.

Sorry Magic Alpha , i thought it was you. My mistake :-)

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-11-2009).]
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/12/09 03:17 AM

spalding1968 no problem.

I see that here is really good tread.
I can say only that this will be supersonic keyboard if that will do like you say.

Qranger is doing a lot of things. Also you can put inside plugins as AFG Music said.

I can tell you that I'm not so inside in qranger that I can say that this is possible or not in the way as you said.

Because of that I use chords in giga and is working on same struming like virutal guitaris. I can use riffs from it without problems. And that can be really fantastic tool. For guitar, same can be with brass riffs of orchestral.

For solo instrument you have answer from AFG Music. But I need to say that are some limits.

First is RAM and CPU and HD transfer. This limit is high but you must also respect that is not endelss.

Maybe only Dom can answer direct on question.

BR.

Magica Alfa
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/12/09 12:35 PM

Because the MS does not have the Ketron's hybrid audio/Midi system for eking out more chords than are actually recorded, every single chord type you want will need to have probably six to twelve recordings for it Why so many? Because the pitch shifting only works so far without noticeable artifacts, so you probably need three to cover all twelve scale steps, and then you need two recordings at different speeds (and actually PLAYED at two different tempos, because the same strumming pattern at 140bpm sounds completely different to the same strumming pattern at 90bpm).

So, take every chord in the book, and multiply it by six Now have them ALL instantly available, streamable from HD, and try not to max out the data buss...

I think that Magica may be referring to Real Guitar, or Virtual Guitarist, or any of the guitar 'strum' VSTi's available, rather than doing it all yourself (absurd amount of effort to make even ONE style). The only problem with these is that they are NOT really designed to be realtime tools. They can play, after a fashion, in realtime, but they are glitchy and have latency issues. But none of this matters when their true purpose is to create a control track in a DAW, edit that, and THEN have it play back sample accurate because the DAW is doing the latency compensation.

The only demo I ever heard of someone attempting this on an arranger was for Wersi, and I could hear latency all over it. Before anyone proposes these things as the answer to our dilemma, I would like to hear a 'proof of concept' and have someone trigger these in a real style, and throw some challenging changes at it. I would not be surprised to hear it glitching and 'dragging' just a hair when trying to go realtime...

I have used all of Steinberg's Guitarist series since they came out. They are NOT good at realtime, do NOT have a comprehensive selection of strummed chords, and have a limited selection of styles. And are fairly expensive. Imagine what a COMPREHENSIVE set of rhythms and chords would cost! In acoustic AND electric versions!

What is absurd is that we are even contemplating this, when superb MIDI guitar emulations are already in those poor 'closed' arrangers, and only need a bit more refinement and improvement to be even MORE convincing. Tie what we already HAVE to a bit better sample sets, and you have what the audio loop boys are struggling to achieve, with NO missing chords, no problems with pitch stretching, no problems with weird chords or 'late' chord entry, streaming audio issues ar ANYTHING. Oh, and a HUGE selection of style types already recorded for you.

I just don't see the point...
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/12/09 01:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Glad to see that the MS is answering the call to appeal to younger players.
Their use of audio in styles is just what this younger market wants. This way the MS plays audio with styles as we would probably all agree is good for modern styles like hiphop, trans R and B and so on.


So the call has been answered by the MS for a manufacturer to make a keyboard geared to the modern player and not just the traditional player.



Sadly, I feel that this is ONLY geared to the younger player. If it was geared to the traditional player, it would come, like the Audya does (in part) with the guitar strum work done for you, and a huge selection of styles that employ it. No 'traditional' arranger user is going to sit down and spend weeks making the guitar audio (and bass audio, and keys audio, etc.) for ONE style, just so he can cover any chord he feels like.

What seems to be missing is an arranger that CAN appeal to both segments of the market.

The MS has to compete with WS's like the MoXS, M3 and FantomG, NOT arrangers, when it comes to getting the younger player on board. And sadly, all of these have FAR better onboard content that the MS comes with, and are quite capable of doing loop slicing and playback, too.

I believe there are VERY few players of ANY age that audition a keyboard in a store, and select the worse sounding one because it MIGHT have better capabilities (but can't show it)... We might like to THINK that they are all about creativity, but I've seen them in the stores, and what floats their boat are great sounding arps and loops OOTB. Call it a 'proof of concept' if you will.

It doesn't seem to matter... arranger OR WS, what gets it SOLD is the on board content OOTB.
Posted by: rikkisbears

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/12/09 04:34 PM

Hi,
not sure I totally understand what Diki was saying, about the vitual guitarist etc, but I hear the word latency & glitches.
Sounds to me like the MS may be better suited as an arranger's tool rather than used as a realtime arranger keyboard?? ie
pre recorded songs in the studio, using styles & whatever other great tools are available on it.
Maybe for the player who only plays styles in realtime, a traditional arranger keyboard would be better suited.

best wishes
Rikki
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/12/09 06:11 PM

Rikki, I am only speaking from what I have experienced with computers running strum libraries. perhaps you CAN get these to run smoothly on the MS. I really don't know.

But I would like to HEAR it before I am willing to concede that it can work well. In sync with the MIDI section, and lots of cord changes at odd times. Worst case scenario, and all that...

There are some pretty sophisticated things hidden under the hood on MIDI arrangers to fool you into hearing things that haven't happened. What I mean is, say you play a chord fractionally late... On a MIDI arranger, the arranger section basically 'bends' or portamento's all the incorrect notes from the earlier chord into the correct notes from the 'late' chord, so you don't hear any retriggered transients.

An audio loop can't do this (can't pitch shift a minor chord into a diminished, for instance). This tends to make imprecise chord entry FAR glitchier than it's MIDI equivalent...
Posted by: rikkisbears

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/12/09 07:13 PM

Hi Diki,
I've really had no experience with strum libraries etc
the only audio I've had anything to do with, is the BIAB real track audio loops. The drum loops I could actually make use of for my korg as a groove file, bit of fiddling round , but does work. The rest of the audio loop instruments ie guitars, strings etc I haven't tried . Too many gigabytes involved, can't use them for my korg except for maybe as a groove wav file intro. Transposition would be a problem hence only an intro or ending might work.
64 mb's ram on pa800 would be my main problem haahaa
best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]Rikki



[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 06-12-2009).]
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/13/09 12:36 AM

diki you forget one thing about linux. with linux realtime kernel you have very low latency what is impossible at the moment with windows. and you forget that lionstracs have a very good arranger soundcard. about chords if you can make sliced oneshot wave and save it from 36 Chords and save it as giga drumkit you do not need VST or what else.
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/13/09 04:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
diki you forget one thing about linux. with linux realtime kernel you have very low latency what is impossible at the moment with windows. and you forget that lionstracs have a very good arranger soundcard. about chords if you can make sliced oneshot wave and save it from 36 Chords and save it as giga drumkit you do not need VST or what else.


Diki wants something what is very hard to explain. To make from WAV to MIDI and back to WAV. That as AFG said it is possible.

But Diki what are you doing usual in studio? Playing VSTs and loops and than record voice or other instrumet that is easier to record than programed on PC.

On this also you are have answer from AFG.

Can you do that on other keyboards?
Can you play VST+loops in other arrangers? And where are here now limits?

With all respect on all arranger you are right each arranger is having something that nobody else is having.

But if you want tool that can handle with so many things inside and is good master keyboard than please show me it.

LINUX is really low latency OS and more stable than windows.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/13/09 04:50 PM

I am always open to having someone SHOW ME that these things are possible...

If Linux brings latency down, and the VSTi itself responds fast enough, streams the strums fast enough, etc., etc. (latency is more than the kernel, it comes from streaming issues, program response issues, MIDI issues, many things more than simple audio latency), then it should be a piece of cake for someone to actually demo this, shouldn't it? This is the thing that gives me pause... if it so easy, why hasn't anyone done it yet? Why isn't the best strum VSTi loaded at sale? Why aren't styles developed that leverage the strumming engine? Why is it up to US to make this work? If it IS that easy, surely Dom can get it to work and start making styles that use it?

Ketron managed it... to the extent that their hardware was capable of it. To the extent that the MS's hardware is capable of doing it, how come Lionstrac HASN'T?

I am still waiting for an actual audio proof of concept, rather than the constant litany of 'it OUGHT to be able to do it'. I am NOT saying it can't... don't get me wrong. But those of you telling me this can, should have DONE IT to be able to tell me this.

So.... let's hear it.
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/14/09 06:27 AM

Diki ,

As agreed in other forum I'm waiting your demo.

I'm next week from Tuesday on tour. So please if you can send it before this date or I will make my part at end of next week.

BR

Magica Alfa
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 06/16/09 10:27 AM

That will answer the question of style conversion, but it still doesn't answer what I just asked...

Guitar strumming VSTi's... do they work well in realtime?

Please remember, to be able to say YES to this question, you should have already DONE IT, and it should be easily demoed.

Sorry, Magica, I had a very busy week, only just getting back home myself... I am on it as fast as I can!
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/01/09 06:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
I'm not beating around the bush, I'm actually happy now that I finally “Get It” after years following the developments of this keyboard.

I always wondered why there was such secrecy surrounding this keyboard and a complete lack of Audio Demo's worthy of even being heard.

The answer is it's a Lemon and nobody likes admitting that they got caught out.

So my final words on the subject of the Mediastation “ever” will be, shame on anyone who knew of all these problems and ever reported them on the forum. If the keyboard is not playable live and reliable it should have been reported long long ago..

The End.


To Irishacts, (James) I am sorry for any harsh words I may have had towards you and your view of the MS.

All of what you say I now agree with.

Although what I will say is, speaking for myself, I never hid anything, it just took some time to work out what the issues were.

There are other owners who have owned a Media Station much MUCH longer than me who still attempt to "gloss over" the deficiencies.

For me the MS WAS a lemon, a giant leap of faith that proved to be a waste of time and money.

An idea and concept ahead of its time and yes, brilliant in its way, but without nearly enough of the resources to implement it properly so it could be a fully live instrument. Although even at a studio level it has issues.

I have now moved on (or slightly backward, not in quality though) and I will not be visiting software based keyboards for a long, LONG time, maybe never again.

Dennis
Posted by: abacus

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/02/09 01:18 AM

Hi Dennis
Don’t dismiss all software boards because of one bad experience.
Wersi have been making software keyboards/organs for about 10 years, and there are no problems with live use. (You will find they are played on TV, in Clubs, Concert Halls and Stadiums, as well as at home and in the studio, plus Wersi has been making keyboards/organs for the last 40 years so are not new to the business)
TIP: If you want a Wersi Arranger, make sure you add or it already has the OAA (Open Art Arranger) software, as otherwise you will find it is more Organ then Arranger.
NOTE: Contrary to what has been said on some sites (Not Wersi) the OAA will not as yet directly play Tyros 3 styles, only up to Tyros 2 styles (They are a different format to the T2) and so they have to be converted to Tyros 2 Format first. (The same applies to all Yamaha Arrangers)
Used Wersi’s do come on the market every so often, and are easy to upgrade to the latest software/hardware, so there is no need to pay full whack for one. (The longer you keep it (You don’t need to change the whole board to get the latest technology) the cheaper it gets)
The new Pegasus Wing comes with OAA as standard.
Regards

Bill
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/02/09 06:03 AM

Quote:
To Irishacts, (James) I am sorry for any harsh words I may have had towards you and your view of the MS.
All of what you say I now agree with.


Thank you very much, that sincerely means a lot to me. I was only trying to be helpful as nobody likes to get caught up in buying something expensive that simply won't do what it supposed to, nor will it every work as expected regardless of how much time you give Lionstracks to fix it. They completely lack the ability and resources. Not to mention Dom's inability to communicate with people respectfully.

Quote:
I have now moved on (or slightly backward, not in quality though) and I will not be visiting software based keyboards for a long, LONG time, maybe never again.


I really hope this doesn't put you off buying software based keyboards in the future because soon they will be the only thing in the future of all top end keyboards. When they are built by companies with the money and resources to make the product work, they really do work. For example, I'm a proud owner of the KORG OASYS which is entirely software based and that works like a dream. KORG even made all the technology transparent. At no point do you feel your working with a PC, it just feels like a musical instrument. You can't see the operating system at all actually.

Kind Regards
James
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/02/09 09:12 AM

is sad to see read about your experience with the MS Dennis.i thenk domenico need more time to fenish this product, and he is verry close to.

but as a musician i understand you!
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/02/09 10:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
is sad to see read about your experience with the MS Dennis.i thenk domenico need more time to fenish this product, and he is verry close to.

but as a musician i understand you!



The mediastation has been available to purchase for 5 years now and it still doesn't even function right.

Your only kidding yourself.
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/02/09 11:03 PM

James, it hasn't put me off the software concept fully, but I will certainly be much more wary in the future.

Dennis
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/03/09 12:04 AM

I know I'm flogging a dead horse, here, but I have been saying for as long as this thing has been out...

If the factory can't make great music on it, if virtually none of it's users can make great music on (Lord knows, no-one has posted much that use them on this forum that didn't suck), then the odds are, you CAN'T make great music on it. For whatever reason, if there's bugger all out there that doesn't suck, chances are, you can't do any better...

Put it this way... if you can make GREAT music on an arranger that everybody else hates, then POSSIBLY, you've got a slim chance. Maybe you've got a BOTL Casio, and can make music on it that makes a T3 sound like a toy... You are the PERFECT demographic for the MS.

The rest of us are mere mortals. Just like everybody Dom has ever hired, to make factory demos for the MS.

It's not the CONCEPT that is flawed. It's just the implementation of the concept. Something that already sounded and worked GREAT as an arranger would be perfect to have the 'open' concept added to. But let's be realistic.... If it doesn't start out sounding great and working great, who here has the skill to make it that way? No-one I've heard, yet...
Posted by: Nigel

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/03/09 12:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
AFG give up...there only 2 rules with Diki..

1: Diki is ALWAYS right

2: When Diki is wrong, refer to rule 1



So Dennis, I guess you are saying that both these rules are correct then???
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/03/09 12:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nigel:
So Dennis, I guess you are saying that both these rules are correct then???


Touche
Posted by: rikkisbears

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/03/09 12:43 AM

Hi Dennis,
sorry to hear that the MS didn't work out as you'd hoped.

Welcome back to KORGieland.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by miden:
[B]

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 08-03-2009).]
Posted by: abacus

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/03/09 07:00 AM

In spite of the reported problems, (Although from the posts it seems only a minority has them) sales of the MS are continuing unabated, so much so that Nigel (The Administrator) has set up a specific forum just for Lionstracs. (They wouldn’t sell if they didn’t provide what users wanted)

The main problem it seems is that people are treating it like a T3, G70, PA1x etc whereas in reality it’s designed to provide an integrated base for the user to set it up as they want.

If you want everything done for you, buy a T3.G70,PA1x etc, as the Mediastation is most definitely not for you, however if you want an instrument to make your own, then Mediastation comes into its own, while the T3,G70.PA1x etc do not.

In the Final analysis:
You pay your money and make YOUR choice. (That others think differently has little relevance, as their not buying it)
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/03/09 07:40 AM

The fact that only a minority reported the problems honestly has nothing to do with whether they exist or not. Everybody is playing the same MS OS...

It's a lot more to do with how defensive they feel about admitting that there are enough flaws in the MS to make gigging out live a PITA compared to a regular arranger. To my knowledge, Dennis was the only one here actually TRYING to make the MS work as an arranger. Seems like everybody else is using it for a mere VSTi playback keyboard, and using mp3/wav backing, or just using them to tinkle around at home.

To be honest, I really AM disappointed that Dennis had so little success getting the MS to work. When he got his, I thought to myself 'finally, we've got someone with one of these who is more concerned with actually USING it than telling everyone else how wrong their opinions are!' and I had high hopes that he would actually start posting some music to show us how wrong we had all been (rather than just tell us, but provide no proof, like everybody else with one! ). I am afraid I need a little more than the word of someone who is ashamed to post their own music to persuade me that all the obstacles I foresee in using this are not there...

But for those who wish to still 'defend' the MS, or point out that it isn't REALLY an arranger, or a live use keyboard or whatever any sane person would actually WANT to use a keyboard for... at this point, we are WAY beyond words. Dennis's are probably the first honest, unvarnished opinion so far from an actual owner. Anyone that wants to refute them had better do it by posting MUSIC. Because, in the end, the MS is a tool for making music. Show us you can do that well on the MS. We've heard all these tired arguments ad nauseam (including mine ). Just once, show us how we don't 'get it' by posting some MUSIC...

Oh, and Nigel... now even the moderator is out to stir things up? ROFLMAO Truth is, I'm wrong often... just see Rule #2....
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/03/09 03:06 PM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: vagro

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/03/09 03:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

Seems like everybody else is using it for a mere VSTi playback keyboard, and using mp3/wav backing, or just using them to tinkle around at home.


tin-kle
   Spelled Pronunciation [ting-kuh l]
verb, -kled, -kling, noun

–verb (used without object)

1)to give forth or make a succession of short, light, ringing sounds, as a small bell.
2)to run one's fingers lightly over a keyboard instrument or to play such an instrument simply or badly.
3)Baby Talk. to urinate.

Just for curiosity, being a home user of the MS, what meaning should I take?
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/04/09 03:27 AM

To put this in context, T3 G70 and Pa2x pro users have also returned their keyboards because they were not able to operate the keyboard as they were accustomed to with prier boards they have owned.
Yet we still have users of the T3 G70 and Pa 2x pro. And we still have happy users of the Mediastation.

So a situation where a user who does away with the mediastation, T3, Pa 2x pro or G70 does not really say much about the product but says more about the user.
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/04/09 04:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
The fact that only a minority reported the problems honestly has nothing to do with whether they exist or not. Everybody is playing the same MS OS...

....



I'm really disappointed that Dennis have bad filing on MS. I have totally different opinion about MS. I can say that if it is use with MS properly than is working 100% every time. Yes only thing is that you need your time to set up it well. Also Live Styler implementation is great. And if you use with Livestyler some VST than you win against all arrangers. This keyboard is not for guys from box. But really I do not thing that DENNIS is not guy who can use styles from box. He is more new age player.

AND FINALY HI DIKI FRIEND. WILL YOU TELL ME WHEN YOU WILL BE READY FOR TESTING ORIGINAL G70 WITH MEDIASTATION.
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/04/09 11:23 AM

yes please !!!!!!
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/04/09 12:01 PM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/04/09 12:27 PM

I guess first things first... sorry, Alfa, but my G70 is seldom home at the moment (my gig schedule has it remain in the band van most of the time)....

The definition of 'tinkle'... well, whatever makes it sound the best. Your choice, there

And, to all the so-called 'happy' MS owners.... where's your 'happy' music? Happy Yamaha users post theirs, happy Roland users post their, but all we ever get from 'happy' MS users is them TELLING us they are happy. Me, if I was happy, I'd post a bunch of stuff.

A long time ago, when I first got my G70, there was a lot of posts saying that the G70 did not sound very good OOTB (out of the box). So I sat down, called up a factory style, hit the One Touch buttons, and ripped this off in a cople of minutes, No editing, no nothing. http://www.roland-arranger.com/smf/index.php?topic=150.0
BTW, it is a repost of something from the old G70 forum, I didn't do it in '07!

The OOTB comments pretty much dried up after that... If you want to refute something about someone's comment on YOUR keyboard, THAT'S the way to do it. You sure can't WRITE your way out of a general impression!
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/04/09 12:33 PM

Damn...! I just had a thought. Magica, I'm sending you the ROM style that that bossa demo was made from. If you download that song, that should be enough for you to work on, shouldn't it?

Sometimes I think I'm so dumb... the rest of the time, I KNOW it!

PS... Done! Magica, you have mail.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-04-2009).]
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/04/09 03:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
Dennis can you please tell us what did not work you with the MS?

Did you sell your MS?

i ask this becouse whit the old O.S the MS was different then now.

the new O.S from http://www.64studio.com is now in beta stage. and they are verry fast with devolpment the linuxsampler devopment is also verry vast.that is what i waiting for
becouse some day the smal problems will be gone.

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 08-03-2009).]


Hi AFG,

I was not really going to get into this, but as I note you asked again in a later post I will.

Firstly to To The Genesys, your comment about it says more about the user is total twaddle.

I have been using VST's on a PC for years as well as programming (in a limited way) sounds. I really know my way around most of the keyboard operating systems. ALL of them.

The issues with the Media Station were NOT of a programming nature, or of a "how to use" nature. I had that pretty much sorted out (with some help from Magica) within about 2 weeks. LOL, some owners had it for more than 2 years and STILL did not figure out as much as I did in that first few weeks.

Many of the questions asked of Dom were of a rhetorical nature, meaning I had basically figured out how something should go, I was more asking him for clarification JUST in case anything I did was going to stuff up the OS.

Now to AFG,

The issues with the MS were several. First and foremost were two glaring deficiencies that were told to me to work BEFORE I bought it.

These were the ability to use an external screen for programming (the screen on the MS is pathetically small for any REAL programming) and the Performance function.

This is the one that saves a "snapshot" of all the settings including the resource (style, mp3, smf) to a slot for later instant recall. Except every time you used it it crashed the whole keyboard.

And I KNOW Dom says its to be fixed with the CDG function, but who the hell wants CDG function (except his DJ market in Europe). Like the KAOSS pad, cute idea and a nice toy, and it looks good on the resume, but not an everyday tool really.

All I wanted was a vital live play tool fixed.

Apparently both the external display and the Performance tools both worked on an earlier OS (2.8 I think). So, I thought to myself , simple, I will just revert back to that OS.

BUT that OS ONLY works with the previous motherboard.

The motherboard was changed to allow for faster processors. Good idea in theory!!But at the cost of losing those two vital functions, in my view, was not worth it.

But as with other changes, they seem to be done without any thought for users, without any real testing BEFORE making the change and certainly without any real documentation about the change other than its going to happen.

The point is is was SUPPOSED to work when I got the keyboard, not that it was coming "one day". The Performance function is a vital live play tool.

There is a distinct lack of ANY serious documentation, and as this is a serious keyboard from a set-up and NOT OOTB point of view, this lack of proper manual was glaring.

I think the Oasys manual is huge by comparison. And using it one could pretty much get around learning the Oasys from it.
I use the Oasys example, as it is also a fully software based keyboard. But I also suspect the Open Labs manuals are pretty thorough as well.

Oh and the MP3 player, ONLY plays bog standard MP3's. If you have MP3's with tags, it refuses to play them. Just jams up the player, although this glitch thankfully does not jam the keyboard.

So the only way is to load a 3rd party program to play these tagged MP3's, BUT this cannot be recalled using a Performance (if that ever gets fixed).

I actually sent a couple of MP3 examples to Dom so he could sort it, but I never got any response.

On the subject of the external screen, (again another thing I was told worked BEFORE I bought it), I now see it is going to cost owners to buy an update to now have an external screen operation, for something that was SUPPOSED to be already on it!!

This one I can understand as Dom did spend a LOT of money to have an external Linux programmer fix. But out of principle I was not prepared to pay it.

There are several buttons marked on the panel that do not work at all. Mainly to do with arranger functions that I consider basic.

These are manual bass, and break. Oh and there is NO way to have slash chords (or "On Bass" or whatever terminology you want to use) on the MS in any way. APART from programming your own bass lines in a style, and even then its not very musical.

Regardless of Doms' fix, the JACK still refuses to load properly on occasion which of course means a re-boot. Again this is not Doms fault but a fault with the Linux OS and the JACK setup. BUT it still is an issue.

There are still issues with the correct saving and re-display of MIDI patch changes in creating/editing MIDI files.

The LS works, just okay in my view. You cannot save any editing changes to any of the Yamaha styles, so EVERY TIME you want to recall a Yamaha style you have to go through the edit process again. And this is ONLY volume data I am talking about, not micro editing of the style itself.

So in reality unless you are happy with the OLD yamaha styles (with all their preset levels), and the even OLDER XG patches (these are really even worse than standard GM) then the LS with Yamaha XG is pretty useless.

Even Dom admits the native MS styles are absolutely awful. And they are...REALLY!! I don't know who the "gun" style programmers were, but they were a waste of money. Most fo the styles sound like hashed up conversions by EMC!!!

Interesting to note elsewhere that another MS user who was not too long ago spruiking the ease and great sound of the MS/Yamaha styles, the Live Styler operation and the XG sounds, has now bought an E80 to go with the G70.

Actions are louder than words, truly!!

The screen has NO contrast controls and is really quite difficult to see, even in low-light conditions, unless you are almost directly above it. You CAN read it but it is with some degree of difficulty.

As all the volume sliders operate on the MS within the digital world, you get artefacts when sliding the sliders up or down. Even with the output levels set low. (These are sort of like digital limiters on all of the digital audio outs).

There is no quick and easy way to balance sound between the keyboard and a playing resource. If you go to the screen to adjust the keyboard volume, you lose the immediate control of the volume/EQ contols for the playing resource.

The expression pedal assignments do not always operate correctly.

Its almost impossible to program a midi pedal(FCB 1010, the Yamaha ones for example) using MIDI as the controls all have to be re-mapped via the TCP's that are in wide use on the MS.

SO.....with all of this you must be thinking "well what is it good for??"

It is BRILLIANT at running VST's. With the COMBI tool, the Media Station blitzes everything else on this.

BUT I needed more than just a VST player.

That's probably more than enough space, and enough info I think AFG...If you have anything more specific, just ask.

Oh and I did sell it, and I now have a PA2xPro again.

Dennis
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/04/09 04:03 PM

The fact that ONLY Dennis is willing to point out some of these glaring issues (no Bass inversions in style mode? How eighties! ) says a lot more about the basic evasiveness of most of our MS using members than anything about the MS. The glaring difference between their unfailing praise for this, and the actual experiences of someone who, finally, seemed more interested in the MS as a tool for making music than a tool for lording it over less technologically 'bleeding edge' keyboard users, is, IMO, the final nail in the coffin of these wannabes who can't ever seem to back up their assertion that it works for THEM.

Well, apparently, it DOES work well enough for them They switch it on, the pretty lights blink, they load up a few VSTi's, and that seems sufficient. Wow! The future...! Can't wait for those flying cars. That, of course, won't actually take you anywhere, simply hover for a minute or two before crashing!
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/04/09 05:18 PM

This is only converted part of STYLE from G70 to MS. I did not something special only some sounds changing. In next days I will do more with style.

I hope that you will enjoy in that what I done.
http://plac.siol.net/index.php?m=c9ae77e8&a=dc18f91e&share=LNK64234a78d0b1160b8

Enjoy what ever you play.

MAGICA ALFA

[This message has been edited by Magica Alfa (edited 08-04-2009).]
Posted by: mr9000

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 12:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
"..A long time ago, when I first got my G70, there was a lot of posts saying that the G70 did not sound very good OOTB (out of the box). So I sat down, called up a factory style, hit the One Touch buttons, and ripped this off in a cople of minutes, No editing, no nothing. http://www.roland-arranger.com/smf/index.php?topic=150.0


I liked that!
Can you tell me how exactly you put that from keyboard to mp3 like that? My wav recordings turned to MP3's are always much lower in volume than that.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 01:34 AM

To be honest, though, I'd rather hear what the style came out as WITHOUT the changing sounds around. That is, if you are going for at least some kind of comparison... Guitar went VERY strange, IMO, and I'm not sure if it was the pretty aggressive mastering compression, but there were some weird volume swells that might be a result of pumping and breathing that were a bit disconcerting. Not bad, but not great...

I'd still like to hear basically how the style came out without much RH stuff added. I'd also like to hear more changes, rather than the long section where the one chord played. How the style engine handles changes, is JUST as important as how well just the basic sounds translate, IMO... Oh, and what happened to the ride cymbal?

But thank you, Zmago, for taking the time to do this... I hope you can find a use for the style, too..! I really appreciate someone finally willing to step up to the plate, and illustrate their opinion with real music. For good or bad, this is the only way we can communicate the nuances of sound quality, style quality, etc., without leaving it to conjecture and opinion only...

A sound, a song, a style... is worth a thousand words.
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 01:51 AM

woww Dennis, good post...are you sure that you don't have forget some more features? IF I remember well you asked me also to integrate on the OS the Melodyne, Cubase, NI Komplete...all for Free cost of course...

Anyway, I will try to reply your post...

Quote:
Firstly to To The Genesys, your comment about it says more about the user is total twaddle.

I have been using VST's on a PC for years as well as programming (in a limited way) sounds. I really know my way around most of the keyboard operating systems. ALL of them.

The issues with the Media Station were NOT of a programming nature, or of a "how to use" nature. I had that pretty much sorted out (with some help from Magica) within about 2 weeks. LOL, some owners had it for more than 2 years and STILL did not figure out as much as I did in that first few weeks.

Many of the questions asked of Dom were of a rhetorical nature, meaning I had basically figured out how something should go, I was more asking him for clarification JUST in case anything I did was going to stuff up the OS.

mmm..I agree with Genesys...are you sure Dennis that you are able to USE this all standard PC features? IF you can use the Logic 5 and Reaper for example, the you can use it on MS too...IF you can not use on MS, mean that you can not use on PC windows too.

Quote:
Now to AFG,

The issues with the MS were several. First and foremost were two glaring deficiencies that were told to me to work BEFORE I bought it.

These were the ability to use an external screen for programming (the screen on the MS is pathetically small for any REAL programming) and the Performance function.

The MS 800x600 display is pathetically small? Ouch...and then the al others Keyb that have ONLY 320x240 or LESS what they are?? On the PAX2/Audya do you have maybe 1280x1024 resolution for editing the styles/midifiles??
On MS really soon will be available the multiple display outs ( NOT mirrow, like the OL at max 1024x768) but the all resolution of the displays connected at the TWO independent VGA/DVI.
This features we had before on OS 2.8 but on Ubuntu was NOT included, because of the new PCIexpress GPU bus issue.

Quote:
This is the one that saves a "snapshot" of all the settings including the resource (style, mp3, smf) to a slot for later instant recall. Except every time you used it it crashed the whole keyboard.

Yes this I know, not working well from OS 2.8, because we have added a lot of new ASIO host features, on COMBI too and need to update the whole system for reconize the Wine ASIO code. I told a lot of time, this will be fixed after the multiple display and CDG are integrated.

Quote:
And I KNOW Dom says its to be fixed with the CDG function, but who the hell wants CDG function (except his DJ market in Europe). Like the KAOSS pad, cute idea and a nice toy, and it looks good on the resume, but not an everyday tool really.

All I wanted was a vital live play tool fixed.

The CDG feature is just implemented on some keyboards and the CDG is MORE request as the arranger engine, new generation people can NOT play the arranger, they will only Playback! This is the reason that also Roland Europe will NOT develope more new TOP arranger, the market is valued less at 1%, musician want ONLY workstation, Synths and simple playback system ( you can also see on roland products line..) Anyway, CDG will be integrated on MS too.

Quote:
Apparently both the external display and the Performance tools both worked on an earlier OS (2.8 I think). So, I thought to myself , simple, I will just revert back to that OS.

BUT that OS ONLY works with the previous motherboard.

The motherboard was changed to allow for faster processors. Good idea in theory!!But at the cost of losing those two vital functions, in my view, was not worth it.

But as with other changes, they seem to be done without any thought for users, without any real testing BEFORE making the change and certainly without any real documentation about the change other than its going to happen.

WRONG! Do you think that I have so much FUN to continue updating the mainboards and the Linux OS kernel??
Do you know what mean this words?:
OASYS= DISCONTINUED
G70=DISCONTINUED
E-80=DISCONTINUED
Korg I30=DISCONTINUED
Neko GEN1, GEN2, GEN3, GEN4= DISCONTINUED
and now on MS:
Mainboard Chaintech= DISCONTINUED ( bankrupt)
Asrock NF3= DISCONTINUED ( the last mainboard that support the multiple display)

So..do you prefer that the MS will be DISCONTINUED (like the OASYS) or continue survive this project?
We change and update the Mainboard/OS and we continue

Quote:
The point is is was SUPPOSED to work when I got the keyboard, not that it was coming "one day". The Performance function is a vital live play tool.

agree...depend also wich features you are looking for...take a example on Audya or just read the korgforums how much bugs they have too and are fixed after months ( IF they fix)

Quote:
There is a distinct lack of ANY serious documentation, and as this is a serious keyboard from a set-up and NOT OOTB point of view, this lack of proper manual was glaring.

I think the Oasys manual is huge by comparison. And using it one could pretty much get around learning the Oasys from it.
I use the Oasys example, as it is also a fully software based keyboard. But I also suspect the Open Labs manuals are pretty thorough as well.

Here I agree, manual have to big update for the all new features.
Do NOT compare with the OpenLabs manual, they only copy/paste features on 3th paty software...Just take the example how to burn the CD with NERO, or install one AntiVirus...is a OL feature?

Quote:
Oh and the MP3 player, ONLY plays bog standard MP3's. If you have MP3's with tags, it refuses to play them. Just jams up the player, although this glitch thankfully does not jam the keyboard.

So the only way is to load a 3rd party program to play these tagged MP3's, BUT this cannot be recalled using a Performance (if that ever gets fixed).

I actually sent a couple of MP3 examples to Dom so he could sort it, but I never got any response.

Of course, IF is not integrated the CDG feature how can the MS play this media??
I already told that will be integrated after the multiple displays.
For now, is really so bad to use a 3th paty software for running the CDG? I know.. you will all merged on MS and not pay nothing..understand...

Quote:
On the subject of the external screen, (again another thing I was told worked BEFORE I bought it), I now see it is going to cost owners to buy an update to now have an external screen operation, for something that was SUPPOSED to be already on it!!

This one I can understand as Dom did spend a LOT of money to have an external Linux programmer fix. But out of principle I was not prepared to pay it.

This is a good point..
ALL the MS OS developed from our lionstracs developer is totally FREE and will be forever FREE.
Elastique from Zplane is commercial, we have to pay the license.
Qranger is developed from 3th paty developer, we have to pay for the new features and NOT always they will ADD special features, because are NOT interested.

Xorg is the same, we have to pay this work for get this special display OS feature.

Try to Update your software, NI, Logic, Steinberg, Wersi and much others and let me know IF they give you some for FREE!
What you mean, because the MS can running windows application we MUST inclde the all commercial software application and library??
Example: why give a Neko that cost 3400 USD and the XXL cost 6900USD? just for one more usb controller? the difference is because the BUY the software and install on the keyboard.

HOW MUCH you have payed the DEMO MS X-76? ONLY 1000 Euro, BUT you want have inside all the software possible for FREE! Buy it and then you will see that you need more than 10.000 USD, ONLY for the software.
PAY me 8000 euro of the MS ( like Oasys) then I wil install for you the al software for the 5000 euro Value too.

Quote:
There are several buttons marked on the panel that do not work at all. Mainly to do with arranger functions that I consider basic.

These are manual bass, and break. Oh and there is NO way to have slash chords (or "On Bass" or whatever terminology you want to use) on the MS in any way. APART from programming your own bass lines in a style, and even then its not very musical.

The MS keys are working all, are just renamed on the PRO pannel with different features.
Bass line inversion and some other features are NOT possible, because we use the Timeline features and NOT RAM patterns like the others brands.

Quote:
Regardless of Doms' fix, the JACK still refuses to load properly on occasion which of course means a re-boot. Again this is not Doms fault but a fault with the Linux OS and the JACK setup. BUT it still is an issue.

right, this is not a MS OS bugs BUT from the kernel.
NOTE: we can full fix this kernel serial issue, BUT then for sure will NOT work on MS that have different mainboards.When the kernel is compiled in one mainboard chipset type, is NOT full warraty that will work to others mainboards too, we have to choose a compromise OR all must be BUY the Asrock K10N78-1396!

continue....
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 02:12 AM

Diki thanks for post.

As I try to explain, I was only reconverting style. It is my base set-up that I use on MS but in next days I will try to do more with style.

My GM is different than usual but I also put some new sounds on style.

I know that guitars are not good. Because I hear at other styles different strumming of guitar and also sound is different.

I will use in next compare more true sounds and not synthetic because this is advantage that I see on MS IMO.

I hope yo will get global overview on new concept of maybe future keyboards with that I do not MS but i want to show you concept that you are dreaming from PC on and now is on hand and connected with all this lights (buttons).

I thing that in some years will be made only this type of keyboards. Now they are similar but far away from this concept.

I also understand Dennis. Linux it different than Windows and in Windows are a lot of users in Linux not so much but it is good alternative.


Best regards.

Magica Alfa
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 02:21 AM

Quote:
There are still issues with the correct saving and re-display of MIDI patch changes in creating/editing MIDI files.

If you can stil not use the qranger for editing your midifiles is not my fault.
You can still use: rosengarden, MUSE, ardour, Reaper, Energy XT, Logic 5 PC, LMMS...
maybe the problem is that you are not able to use this tools...

Quote:
The LS works, just okay in my view. You cannot save any editing changes to any of the Yamaha styles, so EVERY TIME you want to recall a Yamaha style you have to go through the edit process again. And this is ONLY volume data I am talking about, not micro editing of the style itself.

So in reality unless you are happy with the OLD yamaha styles (with all their preset levels), and the even OLDER XG patches (these are really even worse than standard GM) then the LS with Yamaha XG is pretty useless.


hey....what have to do the Commercial Livestyler editing with the MS???
Is NOT my fault if Norbert NOT include the editor, JUST BUY it and you can full edit the yamaha styles too.
remeber that LS is ONLY a module that the MS contol the realtime features on TCP network.
I really NOT care if the LS is able for editing or not, is NOT our problems.

Quote:
Even Dom admits the native MS styles are absolutely awful. And they are...REALLY!! I don't know who the "gun" style programmers were, but they were a waste of money. Most fo the styles sound like hashed up conversions by EMC!!!

Interesting to note elsewhere that another MS user who was not too long ago spruiking the ease and great sound of the MS/Yamaha styles, the Live Styler operation and the XG sounds, has now bought an E80 to go with the G70.

Actions are louder than words, truly!!


resolved also this MS audya styles too.
After the release the multiple display, my old friend Pieradis Rossini will start to develope amazing native audio styles for the MS and sell online on his webstore.

Pieradis is one of the more famous House producer, from mediarecords, read here who is Pier or just google it: http://www.xsongx.com/pieradis/
49ers, capella....
Pier will also record Video demos HOW to use a Audio/midi sequencer and record Audio styles...not just a simple bossanova out the box...

Quote:
The screen has NO contrast controls and is really quite difficult to see, even in low-light conditions, unless you are almost directly above it. You CAN read it but it is with some degree of difficulty.

The MS display is a LVDS TFT display, NOT exist the contrast, like the all PC desktop display. All the others have only a LCD STN, totally a different display, you can not running mpeg video or website....

Quote:
As all the volume sliders operate on the MS within the digital world, you get artefacts when sliding the sliders up or down. Even with the output levels set low. (These are sort of like digital limiters on all of the digital audio outs).


the MS have the Digital Volume control, that work from range: -90dB to +35dB @ 0.5 dB step.
the MS main volume slider work on range from 0 to 127 and when you have to jump dB step more than 1db, you can get this click audio.
Just go in setup, Volume control and reduce the master ot to 20-30%, then the click are LEFT, simple. We need +35Db range for drive the Mayersound UP-X system.

Quote:
There is no quick and easy way to balance sound between the keyboard and a playing resource. If you go to the screen to adjust the keyboard volume, you lose the immediate control of the volume/EQ contols for the playing resource.

Normally...the MS is multi task pannel and will totally remapped when a new engine is running. If you open 10 ASIO Host, sampler, players, arranger...then how many keys/slider we need? 10.000??

Quote:
The expression pedal assignments do not always operate correctly.

Its almost impossible to program a midi pedal(FCB 1010, the Yamaha ones for example) using MIDI as the controls all have to be re-mapped via the TCP's that are in wide use on the MS.

This is another features request and must be developed by code. Let me see if you can use the FCB 1010 on your PAX, T3, G7...if there work, then I add this feature in some days.

Quote:
Oh and I did sell it, and I now have a PA2xPro again.

good deal! from 1000 Euro MS to 3000 euroo PAX2pro.
You have always cry that dont have money and for that I gave you the demo MS for only 1000 euro...
Now is the probe that if you need some/update, you have to PAY and who will the multiple display on MS have to pay the ridicolus 120 euro too, OR they can just enjoy the all new features without the external display...simple.

I really like to see now on PAX2pro with 320x240 display what are you able to editing..midifiles, styles...ouch...


anyway..enjoy what you play..
Posted by: Nedim

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 02:41 AM

Can the MS do this???:
http://www5.speedyshare.com/data/178157926/17901821/34865005/06%20Jambalaya.mp3
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 02:43 AM

Quote:
:The LS works, just okay in my view. You cannot save any editing changes to any of the Yamaha styles, so EVERY TIME you want to recall a Yamaha style you have to go through the edit process again. And this is ONLY volume data I am talking about, not micro editing of the style itself.

So in reality unless you are happy with the OLD yamaha styles (with all their preset levels), and the even OLDER XG patches (these are really even worse than standard GM) then the LS with Yamaha XG is pretty useless.

hey....what have to do the Commercial Livestyler editing with the MS???
Is NOT my fault if Norbert NOT include the editor, JUST BUY it and you can full edit the yamaha styles too.
remember that LS is ONLY a module that the MS control the realtime features on TCP network.
I really NOT care if the LS is able for editing or not, is NOT our problems.


Actually, due to the appalling built in styles, MS arranger users find themselves HAVING to use LiveStyler, so personally, I would say that DOES make it your problem, Dom. If the MS had good styles and plenty of them in the first place, Dennis wouldn't have needed LiveStyle at all
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 03:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mr9000:
I liked that!
Can you tell me how exactly you put that from keyboard to mp3 like that? My wav recordings turned to MP3's are always much lower in volume than that.


I usually use some mastering software on recordings before I encode them as MP3's. I do professional mastering work, so it's pretty easy for me to do this, but, truth be told, some nice, easy to use software exists (Ozone4, T-Racks, etc.) that make it fairly simple for the audio novice to get pretty decent results.

The main thing is to try any alter your original recording as little as possible during the compression and limiting stages, if you already have a good balance. Generally, most of those softwares will have a 'Gentle Master' preset, or something with a similar name, and these are often all you need to bring your arranger recording up to close to commercial levels (personally, I think many commercial recordings are WAY too hot for their own good, and I prefer to lose a little volume for the sake of keeping the mix honest)...

The thing is, although there are tools for editing MP3's, most of them convert the MP3 to a .wav, process it, and convert it back to the MP3 again (every encoding stage degrades the audio a little more), so to keep your audio as pristine as possible, always record as a .wav file if you can, and master THAT, then do the MP3 encoding last...

Hope this helps...
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 03:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Actually, due to the appalling built in styles, MS arranger users find themselves HAVING to use LiveStyler, so personally, I would say that DOES make it your problem, Dom. If the MS had good styles and plenty of them in the first place, Dennis wouldn't have needed LiveStyle at all


Diki... are you stupid or just ignorance stupid??
Do you want that I drive to germany to the Norbert and cry on the door for asking Norbert to include the editor on MS license? for pay only ridiculous 30 euro???
so...I can running the Melodyne on MS it mean that I have ask the manufacure to full edit it because we need integrated on qranger and you will pay NOTHING?

Diki...before you continue blame..show first if you can decent PLAY one keyboard and show if you are able to use the audio-midi seq...
your demo bossanova out of the box make me really laugh...
Please, no offense at all, in some point for talk you are really so smart but then when get the time from blame, just a ignorant..
IF you really can develope some better, just shown and then blame us...
IF the big Microsoft is NOT able to release a stable Win OS why you continue blame the others?
IF the OASYS was so good and perfect working ( here we have to discuss...just read the korgforums how many bugs still there) why then have DISCONTINUED?
maybe they are not able to updating the linux OS for fit a new powered mainboard and CPU?

please..next time before you open your mouth and blame, try to use first your head and then before posting think really well again...

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 08-05-2009).]
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 03:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Actually, due to the appalling built in styles, MS arranger users find themselves HAVING to use LiveStyler, so personally, I would say that DOES make it your problem, Dom. If the MS had good styles and plenty of them in the first place, Dennis wouldn't have needed LiveStyle at all


Take then lesson from this guy how to recording audio styles and songs: http://www.xsongx.com/pieradis/

Pier is really famouse worldwide, but I see that you are famous too...: http://www.dikilingerie.com/ http://www.dikirecords.com/
Ouch...
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 03:27 AM

Quote:


are you kidding or what??
this simple song you can recond on qranger too with the full 32 patterns too.
You can use on MS also: ardour, MUSE, Rosengarde, Reaper...the problem is NOT the MS, the problem is the USER if is able to recod on audio-midi seq, simple.

Pier will remix the all 49era, cappella...songs to Qranger styles format and then we talk again..
Posted by: Nedim

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 03:37 AM

Diki, i want one of those girls, forget MS or Korg...
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 03:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
Take then lesson from this guy how to recording audio styles and songs: http://www.xsongx.com/pieradis/

Pier is really famouse worldwide, but I see that you are famous too...: http://www.dikilingerie.com/ http://www.dikirecords.com/
Ouch...


Once again, Dom, you prove that you haven't got the slightest clue how to talk to your customers and critics. Do you think for one minute that anybody from Yamaha or Korg would respond in the same way you do?

Fortunately, I don't need to respond to your idiotic URL references. The MS and your entire correspondence is enough of a bad joke that making fun of you would be redundant... You already ARE a joke
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 03:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Once again, Dom, you prove that you haven't got the slightest clue how to talk to your customers and critics. Do you think for one minute that anybody from Yamaha or Korg would respond in the same way you do?

Fortunately, I don't need to respond to your idiotic URL references. The MS and your entire correspondence is enough of a bad joke that making fun of you would be redundant... You already ARE a joke


I just reply with teh al same words as you use with me...arrogance at all.
Just look IF I have sometime reply to others with the same words...
the problem is only you, arrogance and offensive at all, IF remember well, Nigel warning you a LOT of time..but seem that also you ignore...
chance your attitude with everybody and I will be polite with you too.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 04:35 AM

I don't remember posting any URL's that poked fun at you, Dom... And your appalling English simply leads me to believe you don't even understand the word 'arrogance', let alone half of what else you write. Most of your correspondence here at SZ with anyone that questions your boondoggle has shown such a tone that makes my poor efforts seem the hight of politeness...

If it is arrogant to question the ridiculous claims (all entirely without a shred of decent music to back them up) that you have made in the past four or five years, Dom, then guilty as charged. Your inability to remain polite to well warranted criticism makes you quite the MOST arrogant person on this forum. You are here as a vendor of a product. A product, I might add, that has shown little ability to fulfill the claims that you have made for it. Perhaps, where YOU come from, insulting, belittling and ridiculing your customers IS considered acceptable. Where I come from, it is considered commercial suicide.

But as customers or potential customers of a product that so far has failed to meet it's manufacturer's inflated claims, it is our DUTY to call you to task, seeing as how you want to walk into the lion's den. Your customers deserve better than pathetic excuses for why your product does not work the way you say it does, and jibes and insults when they have to sell your product and buy something else, just to get something that WORKS...

Arrogance is selling something to someone, claiming it does something, then insulting him when he points out that it does not work properly. It is obvious you don't give a sh*t about your customers, past or future. Now, as it is obvious from other users, and even your own posts, that the MS is NOT really an 'arranger', but more of a loopstation workstation VSTi player... why don't you go and insult somebody on a forum dedicated to what it really IS, and leave the arranger forum to people that actually WANT to play an arranger...?

And just in case this seems a bit arrogant (Lord knows, I'd hate the two of us to be confused!), let me use a popular Italian expression that apparently IS considered acceptable... vaffanculo!
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1644337,00.html
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 05:04 AM

This is hilarious.

Dom your complete lack of all self control is unmeasurable and you shouldn't be even allowed to talk to people on behalf of Lionstracks.

You have had your keyboard on the market for 5 years and it won't even bootup each time correctly. That's YOUR fault regardless of what way you try twist it.

It simply shouldn't even be on sale in it's current state.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 08-05-2009).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 05:14 AM

“Firstly to To The Genesys, your comment about it says more about the user is total twaddle.
I have been using VST's on a PC for years as well as programming (in a limited way) sounds. I really know my way around most of the keyboard operating systems.”

Did I say you did not know your way around VSTs?

If Diki bought a PA2x pro and did not like it, does that mean he does not know his way around an arranger?
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 05:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
This is hilarious.

Dom your complete lack of all self control is unmeasurable and you shouldn't be even allowed to talk to people on behalf of Lionstracks.

You have had your keyboard on the market for 5 years and it won't even bootup each time correctly. That's YOUR fault regardless of what way you try twist it.

It simply shouldn't even be on sale in it's current state.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 08-05-2009).]


I can say the same on Korg OASYS:
10 years of developent, about 4 years of life..
All the nice promise for a Open system, still full of bugs, crash on Live stages and can not run up again( look in youtube, someone then have removed the oasys on live stage because will not start at all..)
no possibility to use large samples or streaming, 16 tracks Seq, no external display for editing nothing, no connection Network to PC for share/edit..

They try to sell the max possible and then..DISCONTINUED.
Is this the nice support that Korg promise you after you had invest 8000 euro? ( 11.000 USD) + the all extra cost of expansion/updates?
The MS is in continue production and will continue grown in software/features updates.

For that also we choose to take another way, to produce LOW cost keyboards/module with the ONE application at time, like Gigasampler OR ASIO host.
No more open KDE interface and arranger! All closed system like the Oasys: Kernel + 1 application, ( you can NOT change nothing on OS) run UP and ready to play in 10/15 second!
Simple user interface OS with just some keys and small display for recall the basic functions.

Ebony stage 88 with ONLY GIGA sounds ( Bosendorfer 290 and so on..) will finally cover the all Piano sounds that you like, without any size limitation.

Vasio-Synth keyboards 49/61 will play UP to 4 ASIO host with your desidered VSTi or ASIO, for less 1000 euro! ( end user price)
All the software is ready ( copied just some parts from the MS code) need only the time that arrival the all new case production.

Maybe we will see there at NAMM 2010 and then we will see what the other big offer..

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 08-05-2009).]
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 05:55 AM

domenico, but the MS as arranger wil you stop or devolp it? becouse you are verry close to make to fenish the jup!

i ask becouse there are people like me who like the MS as a totall arranger.

and everyone calm down please we are talking en not Fighting Each Other.

i hope the topic that i started did not means to Fighting Each Other


thanks for all

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 08-05-2009).]
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 06:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
domenico, but the MS as arranger wil you stop or devolp it? becouse you are verry close to make to fenish the jup!

i ask becouse there are people like me who like the MS as a totall arranger.

and everyone calm down please we are talking en not Fighting Each Other.

i hope the topic that i started did not means to Fighting Each Other


thanks for all

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 08-05-2009).]


Untill Rui continue Update the Qtractor, you will get automatically the all updates on MS and Qranger too. http://www.rncbc.org/drupal/
Qranger is only one advanced version of Qtractor with the addon of the 32 markers/patterns pointer and chords layers.
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 06:22 AM

and domenico the 61 key verion with the new layout is cool to.

myebe you can send some pictures here

and do not give up.
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 06:53 AM

Quote:
I can say the same on Korg OASYS:
10 years of developent, about 4 years of life..
All the nice promise for a Open system, still full of bugs, no possibility to use large samples or streaming, 16 tracks Seq, no external display for editing nothing, no connection Network to PC for share/edit..


lol.... Wrong. There is not one single known bug that needs to be fixed on the OASYS. It's nothing short of flawless. You would also be wise to pay attention to your own problems and stop trying to find fault in other manufactures products. Stop being so childish and do something worth while like fixing the problem where your own keyboards won't even bootup correctly each time.

Quote:
Maybe we will see there at NAMM 2010 and then we will see what the other big offer..


You certainly have the fire and passion to keep on building, but I only hope you have the sense to drop this Mediastation on it's ass and move on. You failed and it's a lemon.

Now take what you have learned and get serious. You have everything you need in front of you to take a big chunk of the Receptor / V-RACK market. All you need to do is make it work.

Forget arranger keyboards or any product that requires you to develop styles or sounds. This is something you cannot do as you simply don't have the resources to do it right and legally.

Hope you see this as constructive criticism. For a man that puts in as much as you do, you deserve to succeed, but to do that you need to dump the mediastation and forget about the arranger market.

Regards
James


[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 08-05-2009).]
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 09:50 AM

I thing that from start to here all the time same story. Somebody do not want to make one step forwerd and second one step back.

I hope you will find common language and we will see that new things are not so bad.

I will stay user of MS as other will stay user of other instruments. But I can change only part that will not feet my needs. You need to change all instrument and after some time you need to buy totaly new instrument. That I hate nothing else.

Lionstracs is LINUX instrument on which were not involvet so many people as in WINDOWS. But also in windows are bugs.

I hope in future you will see advantage of instrument that is offerening DOM. I can say you that is only software + hardware arranger in this moment. Nobudy else is not offering so many things at one keyboard.

I hope you understand me but that I want to tell.

As ABACUS said some years ago ENJOY WHAT EVER YOU PLAY.

I like that.

BR MAGICA ALFA
Posted by: Nedim

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 11:08 AM

I dont mean to interupt here but i'll thro my few cents in since i've done things for few manufacturers
and i know how certain things go, i have nothing against Dom or anyone else in here... Building a
synth is a lot of money, the project can go up to few Millions $ as in the case of Tyros. Today, a Style
to be created and completed costs from 400$ up to even 700$ per single style, deppending on the
creator. Once i talked to Dom, on the phone and in private messengers, his offer was for me to create
50 styles and for that he would sell me the MS for Hardware price only (Sell it to me) which at the time
was around 1700EU. He asked me for 50 styles and after i create them he will buy them back from me
for the same ammount i paid for the MS, 1700EU. I offered only 5 Styles and not to pay for the MS when
i get itbut i get the synth, i create 5 styles and done deal...something similar to the Audya deal. To create
50 styles i dont think the whole LionTrack is worth that much. On the other hand to also pay someone
to show off that instrument and presented to a certain crowd live or in a video (which i am no good at)
also costs a lot of money and lots of it. You have to pay the person showing and also video editing.
And...forget about the other things that have to be done.

[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 08-05-2009).]
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 12:11 PM

Wow..it "ain't no fun" when "thought to be friends"..backdoor..or try to make show you in a different light....So I may as well comment...

First off ..if I am one of the 2 year old MS users...that didn't know anything about the MS....."total BS"....After I upgraded to the current MS..I moved forward just as fast as the other MS users..including Dennis....We conversed together to figure out some things ..called "user errors"..

We worked out issues like ..the correct way to load VST's..and also to make Live Styler function...For some reason I achieved success..and Dennis had an on going problem...

Now back to the 2 year user of the MS remark...After learning a bit about the "old" model demo unit I received from Dom, via Lee...There were too many improved updates that this old hardware did not and was not going to support...Several months later..The MS solved this problem..."It died"....Most likely a power supply..
Since I already seen enough about the MS..to know, I wanted to ride it into the future...I decided to wait till the newly designed hardware was ready....I was not pressed..I had plenty of other options to play...Last spring, Dom gave me a deal I couldn't refuse...

My MS has been working fine for me...I use MP3/wave play..also seq play...Live Styler for the few times I need arranger....Combi play , B4, and a Giga piano..the vocal mic and effects too..all mixing is done on the MS..What I just described is how I used it with the band...

Now "actions speak louder than words"..come on Dennis.....I just purchased an E-80.....so what..I buy a lot..I can afford it....I also passed on a PA800 and a S900..both below dealer cost...I just didn't like them..

History lesson:..Since I upgraded the MS.. I have purchased an E60, E50, Juno Stage, Tyros3,....(all gone)....The E-80 ..I do like..it is a clone of my G70..with MP3 player, and text screen....Guess what is still here in my studio...nope not the Juno Stage..not the Tyros.......It is the MS..See Action does speak louder than words"
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 01:39 PM

The thing is, Fran... you aren't really using the MS as an arranger. I can go out, get just about any keyboard on the market, and do exactly what you are doing. Doesn't make them an arranger...

Would you honestly go and do a styles only gig with the MS as your sole keyboard? No On Bass Inversions, no Breaks, no way to easily balance live play vs. style? No decent styles without running a legacy Yamaha style (no Mega voices, no SA, pretty wanky XG soundfont unless you do hours of conversion)...

The truth is, when you use MP3's, you AREN'T playing with the MS. You are playing with every other keyboard you used to make the track (presuming you aren't merely using commercial karaoke tracks) and merely using the MS for a few VSTi sounds. The fact that it stays home the majority of the time only proves OUR case, not yours! This thing has been sold to us since Day 1 as an ARRANGER. The fact that you don't use yours as one speaks volumes.

I'll admit, from all indications, the MS has a lot going for it as a kind of Neko competitor. But the Neko isn't an arranger, and doesn't pretend to be, even though I'm sure with a bit of finagling, you might get LS to run on that too...

When you use the MS in arranger mode to make all your MP3 tracks, and you take some other, nice light keyboard out on the gig, THAT will be the day that you CAN say you 'play live with an MS', but while you leave it at home and play to tracks that are primarily made on other keyboards, I'm afraid that doesn't really count. If I made MP3 tracks of all my G70 backings, then went out and gigged on a GW-8L, would I be doing the gig on the GW-8, or would people be listening primarily to the G70...?

If you can't gig on an MS in style mode, then it's NOT an arranger. Period.
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 02:16 PM

Lets sort a few facts from crap...

The Media Station COST me over $3200 AUD...When I received it it did not work as stated by the company.

4 months after I bought it these things that I originally bought it to do still did not work.

Always the promise "it is coming,it is coming" but it never came. I got tired of having to do workarounds for live playing. Simple as that.

The Korg did not cost me 3000 Euro, nothing like it. If you have to know it was around 2200 euro. So Dom you do need to check first before you make leaps.

Fran, it was me (along with a few others) who walked YOU through setting up your VST's and a couple of other aspects. This after you had owned it for two years.

Just because it sits in your studio (and there-in lies the real truth of it, it STAYS in your studio, still not brave enough to use it on an on-going basis live) does not mean one thing.

If I had your money I would have kept it as a VST tool in the studio.

I need a keyboard that can do styles, can play (properly) MP3 files, can load keyboard settings for instant recall (without crashing the system), a keyboard that has instantly accessible on-stage controls, without having to jump through different screens first, I need a keyboard that has on-bass functions, look I could go on and on.

The Media Station cannot do any of the above, either at all (in its present state) or in a poor way that does not lend itself to live performance.

Fran you really do try to gloss over stuff. And as for, what was it you said, "backdoor" nope not at all. I am the only MS user, as far as I know to actually bring these matters to light.

The Live Styler was a debacle. You cannot use it to edit and save the style as even when you did the Media Station did not overwrite the original style, nor create a user style because the software as far as editing is not linked.

SO when you cam back to that style (edited with Live Styler) it just loaded the original one back.

To say its all Norberts' problem is just wrong. YOU included it on your OS so therefore it is incumbent upon YOU to make sure it works.

When I sold it, apart from some changes like a KAOSS pad, and updates to the underlying Linux OS, it was essentially the same as when it arrived. With all the faults still there. And you wonder why I got so annoyed with it and frustrated at the end.

I just got tired. And I got tired of people refusing to acknowledge these issues. I got tired of waiting for functions becasue teh designers were too busy trying to add too many "toys" to it. Trying to add junk that was really quite useless in the live play world.

The Live Styler is just like the player function, it is a PLAYER only. And no matter how many times I tried, following Norberts instruction to the letter, and Dom's as well, it would never go out of demo mode. Even though I paid the subscription price.

But, that's the usual response, if it does not work then then user is ALWAYS wrong, the OS is perfect don't you know

And Dom the buttons DO NOT WORK....Try pressing the manual bass button, or the solo button, there are a couple more on that section but I cannot remember the tags now.

And if they work under some other function because you have changed the software so many times...give some bloody documentation to tell people!!!!

And as for the mother board issue it was YOU who told me the OS 2.8 was linked to the different motherboard. It was you who said there was this select group of programmers who DID have an OS that allowed external monitors. I even asked if I could buy the older motherboard if you remember so I COULD have these tools, and not all the new toys.

YOU even said the display on the MS was terrible for editing on!!! It is not that good visibly but it is awful for editing as it is way too small for the amount of data you are trying to fit on it.

Look as I said at the start I was not going to get into this because I knew this is where it would lead. But AFG insisted on an answer, so I gave him an honest assessment of my experience.

If users and the owner of the company continue to say the "Emperor Has New Clothes" even when naked, well that's an issue for them.

James nailed it when he suggested this be totally reconfigured to be a VST power machine. Forget the CDG, forget the arranger, forget the KAOSS pad, forget ALL the toys and gimmicks. Make this a solid reliable live/studio VST controller and player (keep the COMBI its great too ) and musicians will beat a path to your door.

The Muse Receptor sells thousands of units, and its more expensive than the MS, and it has none of the capabilities that are in this unit, so there IS a big market. Just tap into it.
Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 02:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Wow..it "ain't no fun" when "thought to be friends"..backdoor..or try to make show you in a different light....So I may as well comment...

First off ..if I am one of the 2 year old MS users...that didn't know anything about the MS....."total BS"....After I upgraded to the current MS..I moved forward just as fast as the other MS users..including Dennis....We conversed together to figure out some things ..called "user errors"..

We worked out issues like ..the correct way to load VST's..and also to make Live Styler function...For some reason I achieved success..and Dennis had an on going problem...

Now back to the 2 year user of the MS remark...After learning a bit about the "old" model demo unit I received from Dom, via Lee...There were too many improved updates that this old hardware did not and was not going to support...Several months later..The MS solved this problem..."It died"....Most likely a power supply..
Since I already seen enough about the MS..to know, I wanted to ride it into the future...I decided to wait till the newly designed hardware was ready....I was not pressed..I had plenty of other options to play...Last spring, Dom gave me a deal I couldn't refuse...

My MS has been working fine for me...I use MP3/wave play..also seq play...Live Styler for the few times I need arranger....Combi play , B4, and a Giga piano..the vocal mic and effects too..all mixing is done on the MS..What I just described is how I used it with the band...

Now "actions speak louder than words"..come on Dennis.....I just purchased an E-80.....so what..I buy a lot..I can afford it....I also passed on a PA800 and a S900..both below dealer cost...I just didn't like them..

History lesson:..Since I upgraded the MS.. I have purchased an E60, E50, Juno Stage, Tyros3,....(all gone)....The E-80 ..I do like..it is a clone of my G70..with MP3 player, and text screen....Guess what is still here in my studio...nope not the Juno Stage..not the Tyros.......It is the MS..See Action does speak louder than words"


Fran I did nothing of the sort. If you want to try and vindicate yourself by attempting to cast aspersions on me, well thats your problem.

"WE" did not do anything. It was me who walked you through your VSTs and getting the XG to work with your LS.

I have not had any problems with the LS?? Where did you get that from????? The issue is that those old and tired Yamaha styles cannot be edited and those edits saved. And god knows they need some SERIOUS editing.

And I tried with the native styles to edit, but on that screen its hopeless. And the MIDI issues really need to be sorted.

You should have had the MS sorted way before..Come on I mean are you serious TWO YEARS!!!! And you still had no idea??

Sheesh it should have been you leading the charge, instead of still requiring assistance.

As you said it was hardware changes...the software all still worked pretty much the same, although some areas WERE simplified.

And to repeat if I had your frivolous spending habits and had all your money you constantly brag about, I would have kept my MS as a really superb VST tool in the studio.

But perhaps you should try something that, judging by your posts, (and not just on this subject) you seem to know nothing about......

EMPATHY.

Try walking in someone else's shoes and then coma back and see if your attitude changes.
Posted by: spalding

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 04:10 PM

i said once before that i was shocked that a fellow musician would allow someone to spend their hard earned cash on an instrument such as the MS knowing its limitations in live use......Yes that comment was aimed at you Fran.

Dom I am shocked that you could have the cheek to come on here and blast one of your customers and blame him for not being able to use your keyboard when you have already admitted that it doesnt even have a fully documented manual !!! Are you crazy ???

Dennis. Thank you for your honesty. Its a shame that others hear are too busy getting side deal discounts on the MS from Dom rather than give an honest report warts an all.

Yes that was aimed at you too Fran. No need to Ban me Nigel i will take some time off myself.
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 10:39 PM

Posted by: miden

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/05/09 11:28 PM

I did make a comment but decided it was not worth it. I think I will just let this rest now.
Perhaps Nigel can put us all out of our misery and just close the thread?

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 08-06-2009).]
Posted by: mr9000

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 01:07 AM

W..o..w!

As every month passes by the M-station just keeps getting it's ass 'beat'..perhaps it may just go down in history as this was the only kind of beat it was successful at?

I would like "very" much to have a Mediastation forum to have a looksey at on what everyone had to say about it.The very few here enlightening me,must represent a boat load of others that have no channel for such ventings/rantings on the 2000$ going down the pipes.
Posted by: mr9000

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 01:07 AM

(dbl post)

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 08-06-2009).]
Posted by: abacus

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 01:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mr9000:
W..o..w!

As every month passes by the M-station just keeps getting it's ass 'beat'..perhaps it may just go down in history as this was the only kind of beat it was successful at?

I would like "very" much to have a Mediastation forum to have a looksey at on what everyone had to say about it.The very few here enlightening me,must represent a boat load of others that have no channel for such ventings/rantings on the 2000$ going down the pipes.


Nigel has already provided it http://www.synthzone.com/cgi-bin/forumdi...=100&LastLogin=

Enjoy
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 01:27 AM

HOT HOT SUMMER WITH MEDIASTATION

I thing even now you do not know all about MS.

Anyway it is great instrument. And 10000 words are nothing regard what this instrument offer. Also Dennis find good points from MS.

So here is big fire but we are have also a lot of fireman and this forum is growing.

Everytime is great to discouse with you.
Posted by: abacus

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 01:59 AM

Have a look on the Lionstracs website and find out what the Mediastation is, (Hint, It is in the title) then see if it does what it says on the tin.
Complaining because it doesn’t operate like something it isn’t is a bit pointless.
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 08:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
Have a look on the Lionstracs website and find out what the Mediastation is, (Hint, It is in the title) then see if it does what it says on the tin.
Complaining because it doesn’t operate like something it isn’t is a bit pointless.


Huh ?
Have you even read what was posted ?

The keyboard "DOES NOT FUNCTION" correctly or at all at times. As in it crashes completely, and the damn thing can't even bootup right each time and that's just for starters.
Posted by: Nedim

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 09:55 AM

James, just out of nowhere, you gonna get rid of M3 and keep OASYS?
Posted by: mr9000

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 10:09 AM

phhwaa..what a boatload of information over yonder at the mediastation section!!(not)
All posters over there said was "thanks for the forum and this:
-------------------
AFG MusicWrote:"

vagro mybe is beter to wait some weeks for see
the o.s devolpment for quad.
i have the same problem i have mainboard astrock NF3 VSTA with AMD Athlon 3500+ one core and 4.5 GB DDR2

but for me is my MS slow becouse O.S 3.2 rev 1676 dual or quadcore uptimaized.

the big problem start whean i load VST


Note: the problem is not the MS O.S but only my CPU if i upgrade my CPU i change also the mainboard. domenico offerd me the mainboard some months ago whean i had buyed the micboard but he was testing differnts mainboard at that timee.i asked if is possible to have more 2 inputs with the micboard and he changed the bothem case design for more 2 inputs from that time. and domenico did you resived my last E-mail before your holidays?"
-----------------------
woohoo..real discusion on the power failures there!!is mediastaion made by politicians..?
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 11:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magica Alfa:

[b]HOT HOT SUMMER WITH MEDIASTATION


I thing even now you do not know all about MS.

Anyway it is great instrument. And 10000 words are nothing regard what this instrument offer. Also Dennis find good points from MS.

So here is big fire but we are have also a lot of fireman and this forum is growing.

Everytime is great to discouse with you.
[/B]


We've already HAD the ten thousand words (and more!) from all you MS fanboys. What we DON'T get is ten posts of any music, let alone ten thousand. Do you guys actually PLAY music with them, or do you sit at home and just drool over the motherboard...?

I am sick to death of all this talk. If you can't provide music that sounds better than a T3 (let alone my lowly G70 ), go home and MAKE SOME... then tell us how great your MS is. By playing the music to us. Not one of us believes a word any of you say, at this point. Most of the factory demos are embarrassing, most of the user music posted has been embarrassing, we've heard all the excuses a million times.

Time for some music, my friends. Don't even BOTHER posting another pathetic post with only words in them. It isn't going to prove anything, or change anyone's opinion. Shut up and play your MS (if you can get it to boot!)
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 11:50 AM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: mr9000

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 11:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
mr9000 you are wrong why?

did i write that the MS is slow with
O.S 2.08? answer no

with that O.S you can use MS without problems.
en you can run B4 VST and 1 Asio VST in realtime.
but with O.S 3.2 you have qranger and 8 Asio in realtime and B4 VST,
i have only to upgrade the CPU and that is what i have write here before.
i like the new mainboard becouse of HDMI


I don't know what i am supposed to say...i didn't say anything about me being "wrong"(confused)

All i merely did was copy&paste the single converstion that really went on over there.Was not attacking you at all,just pointing out that,no one was even talking about real world issues with said mediastation/boot issues,buttons fritzy etc.Sure there's a forum over there,no gold over there in themz hills though..
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 12:01 PM

diki read what you have writing and then tel domenico that he is arrogant!

please calm down!

a topic is about writing and reading your opinion. for demo you most be at the door of factory
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 12:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nedim:
James, just out of nowhere, you gonna get rid of M3 and keep OASYS?


It's been on my mind a while to be honest for a number of reasons. Recession and all that. I also can't justify keeping when I have the OASYS.

James
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 12:33 PM

I am just curious, but is there a single MS in the hands of someone that does consider that they play pretty well?

I know I've heard quite a bit from owners that say they don't want to post their music, because they don't really play that well, but what does that say about the MS? That only inexperienced players are willing to put up a big chunk of money in the hope that a technological tour de force will compensate for a lack of playing skills? I know this might sound a bit harsh, but given the dearth of example from the same people that constantly tout how good it is, what else are we to think?

When one finally lands in the hands of someone that DOES make his living playing music live, all of a sudden, we finally get to hear about the REAL problems that arise from this kind of use.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 12:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
diki read what you have writing and then tel domenico that he is arrogant!

please calm down!

a topic is about writing and reading your opinion. for demo you most be at the door of factory


I think something is getting lost in translation, here...

I AM writing my opinion! Thing is, if I have an opinion about the G70, I am willing to back up said opinion with some friggin' MUSIC. I don't expect ANYBODY to believe what I say, when I am completely unwilling to show that I actually know a damn thing about what I am posting.

Trouble is, no-one with an MS is willing to do this. They talk, and they talk, and they talk about how great the MS is. No-one seems to ever make any MUSIC... To busy talking, perhaps?

Talk with your fingers. Talk with your MS. Stop TELLING us how great the MS is, and SHOW us.

If you consider that arrogance, that anyone should have the nerve to ask you to prove that your words are correct, please excuse me. Feel free to be arrogant to me, any time you like

I can tell you how great my G70 is until your are blue in the face. I won't expect you to believe a word unless am capable of posting some music that illustrates my opinion. How about extending us the same consideration? I made postings of my G70 almost as soon as I got it. Some of you have had yours for YEARS now, and still haven't posted a damn thing. What are you ashamed of?
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 01:11 PM

diki you forget things very easy!

you was the one asked me to send MS style without chords playing. and you get what you asked.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 01:28 PM

And, no offense, but it failed to demonstrate any clear superiority (or in fact, any superiority at all). The translation was flawed, and was obscured by some synth washes that weren't really idiomatic to a bossa... not to mention, it did little in the way of changes (surely you know more than the one chord!) to illustrate how well it handles bass inversion (oops! forgot... it won't even do that, will it?), late chord entry, fills etc..

And, I'm sorry, but posting a translation of a Roland style with few chords isn't exactly playing us YOUR music, is it? That's all we have ever wanted. Many of us here post our own stuff, whether to illustrate points or for something like the SZ eJam (didn't notice a single MS entry), or just to go 'Look at what my arranger and I did!' for the sheer joy of it. Where is the joy of the MS user? For the most part, silent...

Unless you count interminable posting about how much better THEIR keyboard is to anything else. Sorry, but that doesn't count. Music counts. I don't care about HDMI, or motherboards, or I/O specs. I care about MUSIC. Sometimes, I wonder whether MS users do, at all...
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 01:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
diki you forget things very easy!

you was the one asked me to send MS style without chords playing. and you get what you asked.


I never asked for no chord changes. I might have asked for no RH sounds, so I could hear the translation better... But I would definitely want to hear chords changing, as that would be the only way to find out if the different patterns for different chord TYPES got translated well, along with instrument ranges, that sort of thing.
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 04:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
And, no offense, but it failed to demonstrate any clear superiority (or in fact, any superiority at all). The translation was flawed, and was obscured by some synth washes that weren't really idiomatic to a bossa... not to mention, it did little in the way of changes (surely you know more than the one chord!) to illustrate how well it handles bass inversion (oops! forgot... it won't even do that, will it?), late chord entry, fills etc..

And, I'm sorry, but posting a translation of a Roland style with few chords isn't exactly playing us YOUR music, is it? That's all we have ever wanted. Many of us here post our own stuff, whether to illustrate points or for something like the SZ eJam (didn't notice a single MS entry), or just to go 'Look at what my arranger and I did!' for the sheer joy of it. Where is the joy of the MS user? For the most part, silent...

Unless you count interminable posting about how much better THEIR keyboard is to anything else. Sorry, but that doesn't count. Music counts. I don't care about HDMI, or motherboards, or I/O specs. I care about MUSIC. Sometimes, I wonder whether MS users do, at all...


With post like that no wonder MS users are not posting any more examples. That is why I always strongly dissuade persons from posting on this forum.


1. There is a cry for MS users to post music. There is a claim that MS users do not post there music. When the facts show otherwise )users contradicting them selves again). MS users have actually posted music as admitted in the quoted post above. In fact, there have been several post where some persons could not believe that there was such a good sound coming from the MS. One of them was a Spanish style.

2. As is demonstrated in this thread, whether a style or a sound is good is VERRY subjective. Another reason why posting here is pointless and proves nothing.

3. One thing that is certain is that no matter what Good demo gets posted from the MS it would not be greeted with approval by the MS haters. That is an absolute. If I am wrong, 3 years from now tell me if there is any post to the contrary.

4. The MS haters (who actually don’t have an MS), want to tell happy gigging MS users how to use their keyboard and what works for them. What may work for some may not work for others.


5. If I were a new MS user, even if I had the “best” styles and playing technique, I would never post a demo on this forum after reading these post on the MS.
It is too controversial and too too much hate.
Posted by: mr9000

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 05:16 PM

Perhaps..Would some kind soul lend/borrow Diki a Mediastation?
SO much would be permanantly settled!
Also i would be willing to bet $1000 he would'nt give a rats ass if anybody talked trashed about his freshly released MS's uploaded songs!!!!
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 07:16 PM

I don't give a rats ass if anyone trashes my G70 postings, either...! I don't put them up in the expectation that everybody will like them, and if some don't, it's not going to stop me from posting ever again. I put them up so everyone knows what I'm talking about, rather than having to guess. I put them up because I AM happy with my sound and operation. And, if I'm happy with it, that's good enough for me! Lord knows, there's enough people on this forum that didn't like the G70. Am I supposed to run away like a baby, just because some don't agree with me about everything? (fat chance them ever doing that, anyway! )

I've got issues with the OS and operation of the Audya... doesn't stop me from praising it when I hear something that sounds good. Which I have. When I hear something good on the MS, I praise that, too. Trouble is, that has been few and far between. If you are unwilling to post something on the MS because you MIGHT get a negative reaction, what does that say about your self confidence in your opinion..? You sure don't mind posting words to the effect of it's superiority, over, and over and over again. A MAN is willing to provide example. The rest hide behind excuses.

Just ask yourself this.... You put up your best MS work, and say no-one likes it. Has the world stopped turning? Has the End of Days arrived? Are you going to go home and never turn it on again? Hell no! Of course that won't happen.

So just, exactly, what have you got to lose?
Posted by: mr9000

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/06/09 07:38 PM

Well there you have it.
A most perfect situation for a keyboard company to offer a totally non biased keyboard player.What a way to promote a keyboard and let a common folk dabble with it for say 3-6weeks,it would be a most remarkable,mezmorizing read here for me & others here on the great synthzone..i plead with the makers of MS to manifest such a reality of seasonal usage for Diki!
What a way to promote a product in the meanwhile to!I cannot for the life of me see why such a thing would fail to manifest unless shipping a keyboard is to expensive for a company as MS to do. I suspect a tax break for shipping even as a business expense..imagine if a good report on it was the end result!..that would probably mean at least 2 would be sold immediatly.What's to loose except eternal text on how good it is.

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 08-06-2009).]
Posted by: abacus

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/07/09 01:09 AM

Mediastation using Qranger Arranger program and VST Solo voices

Mediastation Qranger arranger.flv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63S5PCbR8ro

Maybe not everyones style of music, but thats down to the user to make the Mediastaion what they want.

Personally the Mediastaion is not for me, but it is very flexible.

[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 08-07-2009).]
Posted by: abacus

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/07/09 01:19 AM

Mediastaion Live

Mediastation on Live Stage Preconcert.flv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avo7V6H5VWY
Posted by: abacus

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/07/09 01:27 AM

VST in style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE-cCt4-caE
Posted by: abacus

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/07/09 01:29 AM

Mediastation in a band
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cSMigJJS24
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/07/09 01:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
Mediastaion Live

Mediastation on Live Stage Preconcert.flv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avo7V6H5VWY



wrong..MS is only for HOME use..can not booting and crash always...better not use on live stage... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoXipszvY7Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cSMigJJS24
Posted by: Nedim

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/07/09 01:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
[B]I also can't justify keeping when I have the OASYS.


That would be the only reason if i was to get rid of, i cant justify it either.
Posted by: Nedim

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/07/09 02:00 AM

FAWK...i grew up listening to this dammnnn... Zeljko Bebek and Belo Dugme...E TO JE MALA MOJA
ROCK AND ROLL...lolz...Zmago, jesil ti ovo???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avo7V6H5VWY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cSMigJJS24

[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 08-07-2009).]
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/07/09 04:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nedim:
FAWK...i grew up listening to this dammnnn... Zeljko Bebek and Belo Dugme...E TO JE MALA MOJA
ROCK AND ROLL...lolz...Zmago, jesil ti ovo???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avo7V6H5VWY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cSMigJJS24

[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 08-07-2009).]


Nedim yes that me.


I play in one man band, duo and band for 3 years now even more with MEDIASTATION.

In next days I will be for 14 days at Croatian see side with MS and I will play there with my friend on some places. I will make some photo and live video for SZ. I do not have time for making video and demo otherwise I will do that also. But I use it in studio as keyboard with good sounds.
Posted by: Nedim

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/07/09 10:48 AM

Odsviraj i Tiblju Corbu malo...ehehehehe...
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/07/09 11:49 AM

Well, given that NONE of these videos show anybody using an arranger in the way that probably 99% of us here at SZ do, let's simply say the issue is still open. Other than the loopstation video (which isn't really style play, but manipulating audio loops like Live can) I have to sadly say I didn't hear a darn thing that I couldn't easily do with a closed arranger. The Addictive drums demo had audible pops all the way through it, some of which were happening during drum sound selection, some of which were NOT...

But, let's be honest. In the four of five years the MS has been out, this is honestly the BEST you can come up with? REALLY?

Trust me, guys, when I hear great music performed on an arranger, I say it, whether the arranger is one I admire or not. Other than the loopstation video, I am afraid I can't say it about this stuff. And the loopstation work is good for what it is, but those loop techniques can't really be applied to regular, standard music like, once again, most of us play.

Could I make something decent on the MS if I were given one for free? Possibly, but I'm just not sure I would want to put the hours (days, weeks, months!) of work into it before it would make something that any Big 3 arranger could do out of the box. So check with me before you send me that MS, Dom

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-07-2009).]

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-07-2009).]
Posted by: Magica Alfa

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/07/09 03:36 PM

Hi Diki

Do you have video with your G70 on stage?
Do you really use all the time styles?

Thnaks.


Nedim I can give you Corba no problem. If you know GREEN GREEN GRASS OF HOME. That is really good presentation of them.
Posted by: Nedim

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/07/09 08:52 PM

...Hoce da mi rikne moja Chuka, hoce da me trefi Shlog...shto nemogu da vidim Zelenu Travu Doma MOOOOOOOOGGGGG.....
I have all of their albums, lol, i met Bora 2 times, its my Idols.
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/07/09 11:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magica Alfa:
Hi Diki

Do you have video with your G70 on stage?
Do you really use all the time styles?

Thnaks.


Nedim I can give you Corba no problem. If you know GREEN GREEN GRASS OF HOME. That is really good presentation of them.



I think you have hit the nail on the head.

With all the cry for styles, his gigs does not really consist of lots and lots of style play.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/07/09 11:48 PM

The thing WAS being sold as an arranger. Ergo, it should work well as an arranger. Should you, once that point is reached, chose to use it other ways does not STOP it from being an arranger. But if it never WAS a good arranger, live use of it doesn't make it so.

I use my G70 every way it can be used. Full styles, Drum only, LH bass and RH, minimal SMF (D&B) fuller SMF, live play with a band, studio work, whatever it needs to do. My work, in a variety of types of play, is up (and has always been) at Roland-Arranger.com. Fell free to comment once you have heard it...

If it can be bettered with an MS, I would love to hear it (and always have). No matter how you want to label (or libel!) me, I have always WANTED the MS to be all it could be. But technology only impresses me AFTER the sound has... Impress me with great music, and great sound, and tell me about the HDMI later, OK?
Posted by: abacus

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/08/09 12:38 AM

Hi Diki
8 pages so far, consequently you may have missed one of my earlier posts, so I have popped it in again.
“Have a look on the Lionstracs website and find out what the Mediastation is, (Hint, It is in the title) then see if it does what it says on the tin.
Complaining because it doesn’t operate like something it isn’t is a bit pointless.”

Regards

Bill
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/08/09 04:59 PM

Eight pages, and four (or is it five?) years of Dom coming here and telling us that all our 'closed' arrangers were obsolete... not to mention, up until this year, every other MS owner saying the same thing (but unable to provide good music).

Sorry if I haven't adjusted to the new reality as quickly as some...

But call it a loopstation, call it a workstation, call it a lunar friggin' lander, I don't care.! Where's the good music being made on it, whatever it is?
Posted by: Nedim

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/08/09 07:03 PM

No Closed arranger will ever be absolete...
No Audya and no MS can come even close to
a 3000$ PA2X, will eat them both in the morning.
Posted by: abacus

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/09/09 01:04 AM

Nedim
Of the Hardware Arrangers that were in production 5 years ago, how many are still in production.
If some of them are no longer made, and no updates are being produced, then they are obsolete.
Unless of course the definition of obsolete has changed while I wasn’t looking

You will find many Yamaha, Roland, Ketron etc owners that would disagree with your comment about the PA2x. (In the end it is down to personal preference)

Diki
There is plenty of music out there on the MS which is high quality; the problem is your perception, See below
The type of music YOU play is the only type of music others should play, (IT ISNT)
Because of the above the rest of the worlds music doesn’t count, (IT DOES)
Look outside of Florida and its beach party’s, and you will find it is YOU that is the niche market, NOT the rest of the world.
The fact that users around the world enjoy the MS, and it does what THEY want, proves the above point.

Regards

Bill
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/09/09 03:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
Nedim
Of the Hardware Arrangers that were in production 5 years ago, how many are still in production.
If some of them are no longer made, and no updates are being produced, then they are obsolete.
Unless of course the definition of obsolete has changed while I wasn’t looking

You will find many Yamaha, Roland, Ketron etc owners that would disagree with your comment about the PA2x. (In the end it is down to personal preference)

Diki
There is plenty of music out there on the MS which is high quality; the problem is your perception, See below
The type of music YOU play is the only type of music others should play, (IT ISNT)
Because of the above the rest of the worlds music doesn’t count, (IT DOES)
Look outside of Florida and its beach party’s, and you will find it is YOU that is the niche market, NOT the rest of the world.
The fact that users around the world enjoy the MS, and it does what THEY want, proves the above point.

Regards

Bill


WELL SAID!!!
Posted by: Nedim

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/09/09 04:17 AM

Bill, you are right, i expressed my self wrong, what i mean is absolete cuz of Abacus,
Audya or MS will never happen but absolete on
theor own cuz of higher model then yes, of course.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/09/09 08:11 AM

Well, I would be willing to bet that my beach songlist is played by a large number of people all over the world, and that Serbian music remains mainly confined to Serbia...

OK, I play Buffett, but he's played in most countries. But I play the Eagles, James Taylor, America, Bob Marley, the Beatles, UB40. Bob Dylan, Van Morrison... the list goes on. All of whom are international stars and played in just about every country in the world (don't know about Serbia, though ).

When there's an international Serbian star, let me know...

But, bottom line... my obsolete G70 STILL sounds better than most of the stuff ever posted on an MS. You see, MY definition of 'obsolete' is something that cannot do the job it is needed for better than something newer. In my opinion, the MS was 'obsolete' the day it came out...

Look, you can't have it both ways. If the MS is NOT an arranger, then by definition, any other arranger out there MUST be better than it. I have never claimed the MS was a bad VSTi player, or loopstation, workstation, whatever definition you want to use to hide it's abject failure to be a good arranger... All I'm saying is, most 'obsolete' arrangers sound FAR better than it does. So why come on to an ARRANGER forum, and defend the MS as a 'VSTi Workstation' or whatever definition you want to call it..? Take that argument to the workstation forums, and let THEM decide. You don't take a lemon to a gathering of apples, and then act indignant if someone says it's not a very good apple... (even if you have spent the last four years trying to persuade us that, forget the color and the taste, it REALLY is an apple!)

Take your lemon to the lemon forum...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-09-2009).]
Posted by: abacus

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/10/09 01:18 AM

Diki
The fact that you came out with the statement that gives the impression of what everyone else plays is similar to you, proves you need to get out in the world more. (Because they most certainly don’t)

Don’t know were Serbia came from? (Unless to you that is the rest of the world, which in that case means you really do need to get out more)

One of the capabilities of MS is the arranger software (Qarranger, Livestyler) that is available on it, therefore it is quite legitimate to post on an arranger forum, and the fact that you have to program your own styles has no relevance, as its all part of the self customisation that the MS is designed for. (If you want everything done for you, then there are plenty of other boards out there that will better suit you)

Regards

Bill
Posted by: vagro

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/10/09 02:46 PM

Considering the worldwide population: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_population_pie_chart.PNG I suppose the music western people like is not what most people listen to worldwide. However the western world rules the business.
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/10/09 03:30 PM

The fact that the MS may not have styles OOTB that some persons on this forum approve of, and thus those persons say that the MS is no arranger, clearly demonstrates that they just do not understand the concept of the MS.


And, those persons can not even articulate what is an arranger.
If you ask them their answer would be a subjective meaning of an arranger and not an objective one.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/10/09 05:28 PM

I honestly don't care WHAT style of music is posted, Bill. I think I'm reasonably familiar with most music around the world to judge whether the MS is doing a good job at representing it. House music, using manipulated loops, sure, it's got that down. Serbian, Romanian, Baltic music (which constitutes the large percentage of what IS posted on the MS, hence my reference to it), a tougher call for me to make, but given that no major manufacturers' arrangers honestly address music in this form, once again, I can say that, quite possibly, the MS does this type of music no worse than any other, and maybe, because of some of the styles written for it, quite likely better.

But let us address the styles of music that ALL major manufacturers' products include.... Jazz, Latin, Ballroom, Rock, Dance... simply look at the categories on the front panel of whatever YOU chose to use. Are you honestly trying to tell me that THOSE are 'niche' music styles, unrepresentative of what the majority of arranger users use, daily? Because, THOSE are the styles that so far, I have failed to hear the MS better compared to the usual suspects.

These are not 'beach music' styles. They are the bread and butter of just about every arranger user the world over (otherwise, they would not constitute the majority of the ROM styles), with the exception of the Oriental models the Big 3 produce. They are the styles that have consistently failed to impress just about every MS user that has had the honesty to say anything more than empty rhetoric about the MS.

If you believe the MS is a better arranger than any out there, list what types of music it IS better than the rest at, and most importantly, provide links to people making music in those styles. Then let us judge it on it's own merits, not just YOUR opinion. I simply come to my conclusions based on what I have heard. Show me people making better music on their MS's than I can make on my G70, and I will be at the head of the line waiting to buy one (as I have since its' inception)...
Posted by: Nedim

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/11/09 11:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by vagro:
However the western world rules the business.


About the first point you are completely right but the second, considering the
official statistics of the product makers them selfs you are wrong, especially
the arranger world...also deppends what do you think as West...
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/11/09 12:54 PM

It's simple, Nedim. Look at the ROM styles in any arranger... THAT is what the majority of its' users want, or they would buy another arranger that DID provide what they need. In the Far East, the manufacturers provide specialized Oriental models. In the Middle East, Korg do a grand job at providing styles and sounds for that market. But look at the rest of the world...

The G70 I use has the same ROM styles in it that they sell in London, Paris, Berlin, Oslo, Stockholm, Moscow, Sydney, Rio de Janeiro, Mexico City... Those styles are the 'common denominator' that players all over the world NEED in an arranger. Of course, in addition, they would like stuff for their OWN local market... My playlist needs styles that are little represented by ROM selections as much as anyone else. How many authentic New Orleans beats come with most arrangers? How much Zydeco? How much authentic US Alternative?

We all need styles in addition to the ROM, but those ROM categories have been market researched up the wazoo THOSE styles are not 'niche' no matter WHERE you come from...
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/13/09 04:31 AM

This topic is started about the videos..

here some video update:
Finally back working on Kubuntu OS 3.3X the multiple Displays outs with DVI/HDMI + VGA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayN7nil1OPE

One small example how to add Loopmasters audio loop with Qranger editor, on original G-70 HOUSE1 midi style: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX1bROy3NKQ
( pity for the youtube time limiation...)

And here then load and play the G-70 midi+audio style under the MS Qranger engine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_n3L56ZQk4

Hope you will understand how simple is develope audio styles with the MS...


Enjoy what you play..


[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 08-14-2009).]
Posted by: Nedim

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/13/09 09:39 AM

Everything is good but i dont understand the shitty quality of the Audio, cant you get a
500$ soundcard that will rock?
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/13/09 09:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nedim:
Everything is good but i dont understand the shitty quality of the Audio, cant you get a
500$ soundcard that will rock?


I try to record by Pinnacle studio 12, with the USB vide dazzle, Composite IN connected to the camera and Audio IN to MS...
No one available feature for try to fix the audio Gain inputs on setups, I made 20 video test untill found some acceptable.
I have also the delta 1010, BUT you can NOT use, Pinnacle NOT allow to use it and USB dazzle video IN.
Also, the PC will record the all shitty noise of the PC system.

I will see if i can find some better audio+Video IN solution...anyway, is always better than the MIC camera.
Note: with direct camera+mic= record and Upload the MP4 file.
Witch pinnacle: need 40 minute rendering before the file is ready...Boring...
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/13/09 04:40 PM

Look, Dom... A local arranger dealer here in the US already figured out the solution to your problem. Didn't need no fancy video cards, high end audio cards, and certainly none of that techno-babble you just said...

He simply ran a Zoom pocket recorder at the same time as his camcorder, hooked up to the arranger's main outs (or a simple mixer so you can do VO), then replaced out the camcorder audio with the Zoom's audio tracks in a simple video editor.

Simple, effective (listen to Frankieve's Audya demos, which sound better than anything Lionstracs has ever released), oh, did I say simple? You know, when you design the world's most complex arranger (or should I call it something else, now? ), perhaps you tend to look for the most technical solution to a problem. When you PLAY arrangers, you tend to look for the simplest solution that WORKS...!

Perhaps something to remember about your potential customers..?
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/14/09 02:47 PM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/15/09 06:03 AM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/15/09 07:29 AM

The link works, but I cringe with each file uploaded because there's always something wrong. Either a shite mic off a camera is used, or there is some technical reason why audio doesn't sound right.

In this case you make the following an excuse.

Quote:
if you hear some latency is becouse of a old 1 core CPU.recorded 1 chord only


In all fairness, what you uploaded was ridiculously simple beyond all reason and the keyboard couldn't even do that right. I'd hate to hear what it would sound like if someone was actually playing a performance.

This is all an unimaginable joke.

James
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/15/09 07:57 AM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/15/09 08:13 AM

James I know you are "outspoken" and that is fine...What I don't understand is how you call Dom "disrespectful"...and fail to see it ...in your own post...

I know you believe the Korg Oasis is the finest machinery in the music world...Usually those that purchase expensive gear always feel that way..

But to others that have played and passed over the Korg Oasis...we have a different view...and ..apparently Korg did too..dropping another failure for the company..

To me..the Oasis is a composite of the Korg line..including the ultimate failure for me.."Karma"....Sure some folks liked the novelty of it..I do not recall a single performer using one "live" ..in my area...

As for the Oasis being "Open"..not even close...A Wersi, MS, or Open labs line up..they are "open"...

After reading several of your comments , I felt I should mention..how things appear to me...So now we have 2 viewpoints..
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/15/09 08:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
james if you do not like the demo do not listen to it. then go to other topics,

the style was a example of midi+ drum audio loops and a example how easy it is to put sample loops to style in qranger. if you sai it is a joke good for you. but for keyboard style makers like me, this is the only arranger with this unlimated option.

i told here before that my cpu is to slow for new O.S but i used O.S becouse of qranger

if i like i can upgrade the cpu and then is my problem resolved.


So, because you HAVEN'T already upgraded, can we infer that you DON'T like?

Tiny snippets of 'proof of concept' aren't music. How long have you had your MS? Surely, by this time, you will have produced SOMETHING you don't have to make excuses for... or have you?

You see, we don't want much... except to listen to what YOU consider the best produced music you have made with an MS. The trouble is, of course, that you have to put it up without any guarantee that we'll like it. And I'm sorry, my friend, but if you are going to get huffy if no-one agrees with you, who's fault is that?

You put them up, we listen to them. But who says we HAVE to like it? It is YOU (and the MS) that HAVE to be good enough for us to like. And, trust me, my current opinion about the MS will have NO bearing on whether I post in favor or against any music posted. It simply has to be good, and of high quality.

Tell me you HAVE made at least SOME good, high quality recordings by now? Or, what's the POINT of it all?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-15-2009).]
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/15/09 08:25 AM

Quote:
james if you do not like the demo do not listen to it. then go to other topics,


Huh ?... At no point did I express my opinion weather I liked what you played or not.

Quote:
the style was a example of midi+ drum audio loops and a example how easy it is to put sample loops to style in qranger. if you sai it is a joke good for you. but for keyboard style makers like me, this is the only arranger with this unlimated option.


It's a freaking joke because it was the most ridiculously simple pattern beyond all reason and the Mediastation screwed that up.

There is always an excuse with you guys and this time your saying the CPU couldn't handle the load. For crying out loud man wake up and stop kidding yourself. What was play was as basic as hell and the Mediastation couldn't play that back right.

It's the ultimate arranger alright, the ultimate joke and your even worse for uploading what was a totally unacceptable representation of what the keyboard can do. Or in this case what it can not do.

James
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/15/09 08:43 AM

And Fran, sorry, but if you cannot see the difference between disrespecting Dom, and disrespecting the MS, perhaps you too are just a little bit sensitive. I for one have never put up insulting URL's ridiculing someone's name as a response to legitimate criticism of my playing, for instance! Dom is a hothead without the slightest regard for how crazy he comes off as. You certainly don't see anyone coming to SZ from RolandEurope, and personally insulting those that criticize the G70, do you? Of course not... THEY ARE NOT THAT CRAZY!

But, here's the telling point, Fran. EIGHT PAGES on this topic, and NOT ONE posting of good music to refute any detractor's point. Not one... Nary a single song to say 'You guys are all wrong. You CAN make great arranger music on the MS.... AND HERE IT IS"

You've had your MS two, three YEARS now, haven't you? C'mon, then. Post ONE piece you have done on it that is better than what you can do on the G70... Just one...

I have listened to everything you have ever posted on the MS. None of them even comes CLOSE to the G70 (what few there were ). You see, few of us here consider playing a VSTi or two over an mp3 of some other arranger actually getting the backing parts RIGHT to be 'using an arranger'. You could as easily do this with any other keyboard you own. Play me something 100% MS without embarrassment, just for once, eh?

To be honest, I've got NO IDEA why you even like the MS... For live, do you even NEED a better piano that the G70's? Have you such a burning need for B4 on the gig you are willing to truck around this behemoth ('cos you ought to look into the V-Machine, in that case! )..?

Two to three YEARS of ownership... what's the BEST it can do?
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/15/09 09:43 AM

Fran, I'm all for discussing any topic with you, but I'm not going to get into a pissing contest between KORG and Lionstracs products because the notion of it is completely ridiculously and there is simply no point.

The topic here is the Meidastation and not the OASYS. The OASYS does everything advertised with no compromises and is free from “””ALL””” known bugs. It's flawless in it's operation and all function.

Look, seriously I don't want to bring this down to the level of a petty fight. I will debate with you on the subject of the Mediastation, but only if there is a certain amount of positivity to this. Bickering will get us nowhere.

With respect
James.
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/15/09 09:52 AM

AFG Music.

Just to prove that I'm open minded when it comes to different styles of music. Here is an original tune I wrote and played on the KORG Pa1X Arranger using a Factory style and some AKAI Samples. Remember all this is played and recorded on the Pa1X... no computers or anything else used.

Remember, I'm Irish and yet I'm open minded enough to write an perform this.
http://www.irishacts.com/leanbh-mo-chroi/Track%2013%20-%20Cleopatra.mp3

So the next time you see me commenting on your demos, don't accuse me ever of making it personal. I was only commenting on the lack of the Meidastations ability to even tie a basic pattern together.

Regards
James.


[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 08-15-2009).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/15/09 10:09 AM

Now, THAT'S what I'm talking about!

An obsolete (by MS users' definition, not mine!) arranger making anything posted on this thread seem amateur by comparison. Remember, that's a FACTORY style, with a bit of loopage added. Not even a poor Roland conversion..!

It simply astounds me that year after year, time after time, MS users (including Dom himself) post incredibly amateurish music to try and persuade people that CAN recognize good music when they hear it (no matter the genre) that somehow, this pile of (well, you know!) really IS better than those arrangers that HAVE proved themselves capable of great music in the hands of their users, let alone factory demonstrators.

Are they simply so dazzled by all the blinking lights and large LCD screen that they fail to actually LISTEN to what they have made before they go ahead and post it, and in doing so, merely reinforce what we have all been saying for years?

So, listen up, all you MS users... BEFORE you hit 'Submit' on your next 'piece de resistance', have a listen to it and ask yourself, if anyone else submitted this as being from another arranger, would you call it a 'piece de merde'?
Posted by: mr9000

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/15/09 03:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
[B]here a intern style of MS edited with qranger and aded some tabla loops.
http://www.filesavr.com/tabla-pop-beauty

Oh meh gorsh..anything smaller than 60MB's?..not excited in the least about having a 8+hr D-load session.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/15/09 03:45 PM

Trust me on this one, Mr9000... You wouldn't want to download this even if it were a 96kbps MP3...

I'll save you the trouble. Think of the worst, most stripped down style with barely anything going on in it, holding the ONE chord for the duration of the piece. Now add some out of sync (slightly late, due to the latency issues) tabla loops that firstly, didn't compliment the style in the first place, and secondly did not match the EQ of the initial style.

Basically, imagine James' piece (you SHOULD download that!) and then imagine something as far away from it as it is possible to get, quality and playing-wise...
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/15/09 05:35 PM

Lionstracs should give me one and I will write all their demo's for them. That is if the OS issues are resolved.

How on earth they can make this keyboard sound so bad is beyond me when it loads VSTi's.

A product specialist is badly needed here, one who can actually play and is technically minded.

James
Posted by: vagro

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 06:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:


A product specialist is badly needed here

James


Completely agree. I have a MS and I am amazed by its sounds. I am using the old Edirol Orchestra and the sounds are great as well as the powerful sounds from some Vst synth engine. I don't use it as an arranger because I use an older Os (2.8) which has no Live Styler installed and I don't have the time and patiente to edit styles. I use it as a sound source for Vst, Mp3 player and the wonderful fatar keyboard and I'm very happy with the Ms fulfilling what I expected to do with it. But I really don't understand why Dom has not made a good demo by an expert to promote this keyboard. On the other hand I don't think he should offer a Ms to any of you to try it. He should have an official player (who knows what he has to say and show) like any other brand promotes their products.

Victor

[This message has been edited by vagro (edited 08-16-2009).]
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 06:40 AM

Again, what that demo shows is the MS is all about the user.

As the last demonstrator stated he was using the MS to do a demo with the wrong OS.


The thing with the MS is what you put in is what you get out.
And, I have been saying this for a long time, Dom need not post here on SZ and he needs a person who can produce good sounding demos. All he has to do for startes, is find a style, change all the sounds to VSTs, play a song using that style, mix it and do what ever to make it sound good and put it up as an MP3 demo. Once he has done that, then he would be on his way to also getting the attention of the arranger market.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 10:22 AM

If it is as simple as that, why has no-one succeeded?

Demo after demo of music that only painfully demonstrates that NO-ONE has the skill to do what you just said. Look at this seriously. A whole team of the most highly qualified professionals is what is needed to voice and style the Big 3's arrangers. Guys with amazing musical chops AND technical chops...

And now, we are supposed to do this all by ourselves? The thing that drives me crazy is, after years of producing absolutely terrible demos for his product, and proving quite conclusively that he (and all the people he HAS hired) completely lack the skill to do this, Dom STILL expect us to be able to do it...! I swear, if the factory can't get it right, how does he expect his customers to get it right?
Posted by: mr9000

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 10:49 AM

Since i am aware of my woeful grammer skills,i might have to add dyslexia to that also.Seems Media station and Delorian are the same exact words of symilies to me..
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 10:58 AM

No, actually, normal people could drive the Delorian...

I have said this before, but I think it is an apt simile. If you are looking for a car analogy, imagine a T3 to be a Ferrari. In that case, the MS is a 'kit car'. It is a highly powerful, incredibly technical car (let's say a Bugatti Veyron, for example) that arrives at your door COMPLETELY DISASSEMBLED!

YOU have to put it together. YOU have to test it. YOU have to troubleshoot any problems. All without a manual!

How many of us would be capable of building a Bugatti from the ground up by ourselves? All we want to do is DRIVE...

Dom has a Corvette (or used to, at least). HE didn't buy it in pieces and put it together himself. Why does he expect us to be able to do what he can't do himself?
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 11:10 AM

The problem with Dom is that he does not have a good demonstrator in-house or someone on contract.

And he has not learned the art of simplicity (look at how difficult he makes getting good video and audio for a demo seems).

Look, the fact that the MS has styles that some of us may not like is not the issue. The question is how simple is it to change it to our liking. That is what Dom should be concentrating on.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 11:17 AM

But that's the whole point... IF it were that simple to change it all to the way we like it, surely SOMEONE would have done it by now..?

There are plenty of user demos up that come close to the factory demos for most of the 'closed' arrangers. But, after four or more YEARS of the MS being out in the hands of users, what have we to show for it?

Dom doesn't need to demonstrate how EASY it is. He needs to show that it is even POSSIBLE
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 12:06 PM

Agree. and that is what a good demonstrator would do is show that it is possible.
Dom’s job is to make the possibility as easy as can be.


And lets face it, we have not had any live hardcore arranger player post on this forum who uses the MS.
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 12:27 PM

Quote:
But that's the whole point... IF it were that simple to change it all to the way we like it, surely SOMEONE would have done it by now..?


Whiles it is astonishing that this hasn't happened yet, I think that because of the poor quality official demo's you now have a situation where the level of feedback is almost completely negative and end users don't want to even get involved with uploading examples of their own work.

Then on the other hand there will always be the few who make things worse like Magica Alfa & AFG Music. You can find examples of this on any forum for any product.

James
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Agree. and that is what a good demonstrator would do is show that it is possible.
Dom’s job is to make the possibility as easy as can be.


And lets face it, we have not had any live hardcore arranger player post on this forum who uses the MS.



Dom... you know my email address if your looking for someone

I'm actually serious too. I'm extremely curious as to why the official demo's fail when it shouldn't be possible to make VSTi's sound so bad.

Mapping styles to a VSTi like Bandstand should technically = success. Yet, every demo fails.

James
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 01:02 PM

Sorry, James, but most players don't need to hear something sound amazing to make their Big 3 arrangers sound good... They simply switch them on, select a style, and just PLAY. And it DOES sound good.

All this is demonstrating is that, unless you ARE a professional demonstrator, skilled in all aspects of playing AND voicing a complex arranger, you shouldn't even BOTHER with the MS unless all you want to do is play a few VSTi live.

Dom doesn't need to hire you (or any professional demonstrator) to merely make a 'proof of concept' demo. He needs to hire you (or a whole TEAM of great professionals) to do all the voicing and styling so that you can switch the MS on, and have the same experience that any normal arranger player does with a Big 3 product. If the MS did this, and THEN had all the advantages that it does over a 'closed' arranger, the world would be beating a path to his door.

But he's too cheap, too lazy, too arrogant, too blind to see that, without this, only the most experienced, best programmers in the world are going to be able to make anything sonically better than the dross we have so far heard. And, let's face it, the best, most experienced player/programmers in the world got better things to do than waste their time voicing and styling a product like this, when there are already PLENTY of products out there that sound great without having to waste all that time.

I have said, for the longest time, that unless Dom licenses quality VSTi like Colossus, Bandstand, GPO etc., and then develops styles specifically for them, all you are ever going to get is poor translations played by unbalanced soundsets. Who wants that?
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 01:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
And lets face it, we have not had any live hardcore arranger player post on this forum who uses the MS.



Excuse me? Were you absent during Dennis's (Miden) odyssey through MS-land? Here's one of the MOST hardcore arranger users on our forum, a professional, who found the MS completely unusable as a live arranger...

Sadly, I think that the reason we haven't had any hardcore arrangers post great music on the MS is that hardcore users don't NEED to buy one to prove to themselves that the whole thing is pointless. Me, I can tell from the factory demos that, firstly, the ROM sounds and styles are a joke (and Dennis said this too), and that this thing is NOT set up OS-wise as a serious arranger... No Bass Inversions, for instance! A feature on some of the cheapest arrangers out there, and one essential to performing music well. This thing is a cobbled together mishmash of computer parts and Linux programming by a techno-geek that CAN'T PLAY MUSIC WELL How on earth are you supposed to design an arranger, if you don't even know what arranger players NEED?

And, the FIRST thing we need is for it to work well OOTB. Because the number of people qualified to turn it into something that doesn't sound like the POS we have all heard for the last few years wouldn't be enough to keep Dom in gas money, let alone keep the company afloat. It becomes all too apparent that the only people buying and trying to use an MS are those too unskilled and inexperienced to know how hard this thing is going to be to work. Or those, like Dennis, that continue to listen to the legion of MS fanboys that either CAN'T make good music on it themselves (but continue to support it rather than admit they have been duped), or don't even HAVE one, but continue to argue for it because, IN THEORY, it OUGHT to work well...

How is YOUR MS coming along, to the genesys?

Yep, that's what I thought...

It is WAY past time that the only recommendation and support for the MS should come from owners who can actually DEMONSTRATE that it is all they claim.
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 02:56 PM

How is YOUR MS coming along, Diki?
Yep, that's what I thought...
It is WAY past time that the only naysayers and detractors for the MS should come from owners who can actually DEMONSTRATE that they have the patients and skill it takes to use a board like the MS.

By that I mean if you put a person who is accustom to play a Casio, and put them on a Motif XS they would be lost and may say it is virtually impossible to make music on the XS the way they were accustomed to using a Casio.

Now before you say it, I know the Motif and the Casio are two different beast. But that is exactly the point. The MS and the other TOTL arrangers are different beast.
While the Motif XS is an arranger, it is not your traditional arranger and while you can accomplish the same thing on the XS as you can a Casio, your approach may have to be different.

Same thing with the MS.

Dom has from the very beginning said that this arranger is not a OOTB content arranger. It is for the user to make it their own. The concept is much different from your traditional arranger. Some one who gets the MS is aware that it is a different arranger and not the same concept as a traditional arranger.


And demos? Absolutely, Dom needs to have demos that can wow people. You know the same type of demos that the big 3 have. The ones that no ordinary arranger user can duplicate.


I really did not want to get Dennis's times with the MS involved in this discussion, but lets just say he had different peculiar desires for the MS.

And we have all read reviews of some arrangers where the user absolutely trashed the sounds, styles and OS of one arranger and went to another brand.

In fact I remember one user trashing the G70 and the SD1; could not believe that manufacturers could make such lousy arrangers. That user is now playing a PA 800 and swears it is the best thing since sliced bread.
So a negative review does not say much about the arranger but says more about the user and the user’s needs and priorities.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 04:18 PM

Sorry, but once again, a pretty poor analogy with the MotifXS, there...

There are PLENTY of user demos that demonstrate how good the XS is. Quite obviously, despite being a fairly complex beast, its' owners somehow manage to tame it (at least, SOME of them). And that, my friend, is the point (which you constantly ignore)... SOME XS users manage to make great music with the XS. But NONE of the MS users so far have managed to achieve this. In fact, you can take just about ANYTHING out there, and find quite excellent user produced music. Nothing, in my experience, has managed to stymie its' users needs as effectively as the MS has (if making good music IS your goal ). It appears quite unique.

Theoretically, you would THINK this 'open' stuff should make BETTER music than its' closed brethren. But, post all you want, talk all you want, argue all you want. You simply CANNOT argue with the utter dearth of user music that succeeds in living up to the 'potential'. They have had FOUR YEARS to achieve this, and, IMO, virtually no-one has succeeded. Everyone is either using these for playing VSTi's live, or they are sitting at home, virtually unused, while their owners go out and gig on more capable, more usable keyboards.

Before you make any more comparisons to other keyboards, go out and listen to the BEST that their users have managed. Then listen to the best that MS users have managed. And ask yourself 'is Dom DELIBERATELY only selling to people incapable of making good music?'

No, I am sorry, my friend. If no-one has got this beast tamed after four years of trying, it is pretty reasonable (more than reasonable, IMO) to say that it CAN'T be tamed. And, if you don't believe this, I suggest you go and BUY ONE, and prove us wrong (or right!) for yourself...

You are probably as tired as I am waiting for someone ELSE to do it...
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 07:43 PM

Except there have been great MS demos posted. I can remember a Merengue style demo. I can also remember a demo where some persons could not have believed that such good sounds were coming from the MS.

And if a lot of the Demos were playing VSTs well, that is the hold point of the MS. Again, the MS does not boast that it has great on board sounds or styles.

And, my analogy was not whether users can make great demos on the XS, but whether a entry level Casio player can make great user demos on the XS.
Posted by: hellboy44

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/16/09 08:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Except there have been great MS demos posted. I can remember a Merengue style demo. I can also remember a demo where some persons could not have believed that such good sounds were coming from the MS.


Link(s) please.

(I'm genuinely interested)
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 12:36 AM

Not sure if this download link is good. http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/015348.html

and here is the other one with the wow I can not believe it is the MS. http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/018156.html
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 04:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
and here is the other one with the wow I can not believe it is the MS. http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/018156.html


I love the opening comments of that thread.

Quote:
Since Dom obviously can't do it, I got a friend in Israel to send me a short demo he did with his MS.

Dom, you better give me a good price when this thing comes out


That was a great performance for sure but its not suited to serve as a product demonstration at all because you don't get to hear much of the Mediastation other than a little brass and a lead guitar.

That said, I'm not knocking it by any stretch of the imagination. That performance is by far the best sound I've heard coming from the Mediastation in the 5 years it's been available. Bloody excellent, and well done.

Great performance, but Dom needs actual product demonstrations that push the Mediastation and give the public a real idea of the flexability of the product.

Regards
James
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 05:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
That was a great performance for sure but its not suited to serve as a product demonstration at all because you don't get to hear much of the Mediastation other than a little brass and a lead guitar.

That said, I'm not knocking it by any stretch of the imagination. That performance is by far the best sound I've heard coming from the Mediastation in the 5 years it's been available. Bloody excellent, and well done.

Great performance, but Dom needs actual product demonstrations that push the Mediastation and give the public a real idea of the flexability of the product.

Regards
James



Remember it was all done on the MS including the drums. That is the point of the MS. You can get sounds and loops from other places and include it in your MS work.
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 06:02 AM

Yep... I don't think my reply takes anything away from the Mediastation in that regard either. If you feel it does, then that was not my intention. I did try to make it clear that I liked what I heard and was very impressed form the point of view that it was a great performance and the mediastation did not let it down. Two thumbs up here all the way...!!!!

What it doesn't serve as is a product demonstration, but it does give a clear indication that the Mediastation is capable of sounding a million times better than the shite that Dom has been uploading.

He just needs to realise that now and hire a professional musician. A proper product specialist would make the world of a difference here.

Kind Regards
James
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 09:16 AM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 09:26 AM

Here the MS Audio demos updates: http://www.lionstracs.com/flash/audiodemo.html

I have recorder all today with whmedit on MS.
I make a present...the first song is played from Diki.
I think you will hear the sounds difference from G70 and the MS....
the big work is to remap the sounds on qranger but then you can listen the BIG difference.

The same songs are played direct on roland Hypercanvas VSTi and then on GIGA Soundbank, just for listen the sounds difference.
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 10:20 AM

verry verry good demo's domenico

mybe is time to build a site for MS demo's

thanks




[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 08-17-2009).]
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 10:42 AM

Mel finally is uploading the new qranger styles and songs on my server, just refresh the page in some hours.
This is the guy from Miami with the MS too. http://midimel.com/
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 11:03 AM

Hi Dom.

I'm almost at the stage where I pity you because you just don't know when your doing wrong. I have both good and bad things to say about these demo's and I want to you really take what I'm saying on board because I really mean this and I feel it will greatly help you in the future if you listen to me.

I'll start with the bad which is as official demo's these are amateur and lack all signs of any serious effort and taste. Official demo's must be of a certain quality and blow the socks off the listener. You must push the limitations of the product and your simply not doing this at all here. Your actually the cause of the problems here.

Seriously, what on earth are you doing allowing us to even hear a comparison between an old VSTi and good quality Giga files. Are you crazy ? An official product demonstration should ALWAYS show your products off at its best so I strongly suggest you instantly take down those Roland VSTi demos. If it makes your keyboard sound shit, don't post them. I do not understand why you cant see this and why you always post crap that has people questioning this keyboard. At all times you MUST show it in it's best light.

The good... well this is the first time ever you have uploaded something that gives us a clean sound to listen to and a small idea of what the medaistation can actually do. Forgetting all the negative things I mentioned above, generally speaking the Giga files sound wonderful and I can get a good idea of what the keyboard might sound like if someone qualified actually had their hands on it.

So for that I say good work, and well done. I am impressed and I will let up on questioning the sound quality of the Medaistation since it's clear from listening to the demo's that it will run Giga files of good quality and that the keyboard should be viewed as a blank page where anything can be loaded up and made to make this keyboard sing like an angel.

You just need audio & video demo's to prove that to everyone and it all works.

Regards
James


[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 08-17-2009).]
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 11:18 AM

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 12:01 PM

Hi AFG Music.

You especially are wasting your time talking to me about your Ultimate keyboard when you couldn't even demonstrate it playing back a basic style without choking and overloading the CPU.

You upgraded your keyboard to the latest OS to make use of this very function and I have to ask that if your overloading the CPU when playing back a basic style, what sort of machine are you left with to get any work done.

All those fancy features mean nothing if your overloading the CPU doing basic functions.

James.
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 12:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
Here the MS Audio demos updates: http://www.lionstracs.com/flash/audiodemo.html

I have recorder all today with whmedit on MS.
I make a present...the first song is played from Diki.
I think you will hear the sounds difference from G70 and the MS....
the big work is to remap the sounds on qranger but then you can listen the BIG difference.

The same songs are played direct on roland Hypercanvas VSTi and then on GIGA Soundbank, just for listen the sounds difference.


Dom, I did not give you permission to use my file. You are welcome to link to it at the Roland-arranger.com site, but it is NOT your right to simply lift it and use it on your own website. You'd be in big trouble if you lifted any of the great Roland factory demos, or any of the T3 demos, but somehow you feel MY work is fair game?

And, in the spirit of fair comparison, you included NO information about how the demo was done. This was OOTB. Factory ROM style, factory ROM OTS's, no tweaks of any kind whatsoever. I even randomly picked the style! You want to make a comparison, have someone sit down at the MS and randomly pick ANY style, and simply record what comes out without any tweaking or substitution. THAT was what that demo was about.

Given plenty of time, I could no doubt do MUCH better.But the point is, you DON'T NEED 'big work is to remap the sounds on qranger'.

It already sounds great... Doesn't need a fortune in VSTi's, doesn't need months of work tweaking styles or loops.

Yes, some of those demos sounded very good. And some of them sounded very bad. And there isn't the slightest information up there to tell you HOW any of them were made. With a 'closed' arranger, you KNOW how a demo was made. Whether sequenced or style play, it was made 100% on the internal sounds of the arranger. Without more information, there's simply no way to tell WHAT was doing what on most of these demos.

You see, if an arranger (say the PSR S900) has an MP3 or .wav player built in, you could play a recording of the London Symphony Orchestra, and 'technically', it WAS 'played on an S900' But, of course, you don't see Yamaha stooping to that. For a keyboard as 'open' as the MS is, informing your customers HOW something was produced (in real English, too - sorry, but your halting mixture of techno speak and bad English loses a LOT in translation!) will help them decide if what the MS does is right for them.

It appears you have found some good players with MS's (whether you lifted THEIR work or they did these for you is open to question, though ). But if these WERE produced for you, NOW is the time to ''open the box' have them sit down at an MS, and record something without tweaking. Let's hear, finally, what we are going to get if we buy an MS, and let's hear what we are going to have to do for ourselves afterwards.

We all knew all along what you can do with a bunch of VSTi's. Let's face it, listen to the radio, you can hear that every day, by talented producers working in studios with big computer systems. But for the MS to be anything more than a VSTi player, we have needed to hear ARRANGER produced music. And, sadly, these demos still leave a LOT of unanswered questions...
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 12:44 PM

Quote:
You'd be in big trouble if you lifted any of the great Roland factory demos, or any of the T3 demos, but somehow you feel MY work is fair game?


Well he has already lifted the factory sounds and styles from the Tyros, so I don't think he cares what anyone thinks.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 08-17-2009).]
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 01:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Except there have been great MS demos posted. I can remember a Merengue style demo. I can also remember a demo where some persons could not have believed that such good sounds were coming from the MS.

And if a lot of the Demos were playing VSTs well, that is the hold point of the MS. Again, the MS does not boast that it has great on board sounds or styles.

And, my analogy was not whether users can make great demos on the XS, but whether a entry level Casio player can make great user demos on the XS.


This is the true point!

James...I posted this demos NOT for make comparation BUT because the MS is able to running and play simple and complex VST/ASIO and also the Gigalibrary.
Roland Hypercanvas is the last version 1.6.0 available from march 2009 and is not so old.
I hav used it because is full GM/GS 16 tracks, simple to use with the double midiplayer, load the file and play.
The Gigasounbank GM2, is only 1200Mb of data and are not included the full Roland GM/GS program change, so..for some midifiles will be played the first available sounds.

Same happen with the Livestyler with the YXG-50 VST, is NOT a T3 sounfounts and are missing the SA sounds and for that you get some strange sounds.

Now back to the Genesis post:
On the MS the problem is who will play it and not what the MS is able to produce.
Take for example the "Romance giga" demo, for sure you like the strings...but you know how much cost the complete Vienna giga library? are around 900 euro now...

The example is really simple: give one G-70/Tyros 3 to Diki and then you know how will sounds...
Then give the same G-70/Tyros 3 to Michel Voncken...for sure will not sounds the same..

Now about the styles/qranger:
The Qranger is a standard Audio-Midi SEQ with the addons of Chords layers TAB's and patterns system.

IF someone there DO NOT have years of experience to use one SEQ, like Cubase, logic, for sure under qranger is NOT able to develope nothing...we already listened some demos..

Give the MS with qranger to people ( like you James, or Mel or Pieradis Rossini.. ) that you guys have worked around for years on this Sequencer, you wil be able to compose the all stuff that you like.

Just take the example of Mel demos, simple tracks with the right VST and Giga sounds, one simple Audio-midi editor and the game is done.
Qranger is unlimited of audio-midi tracks, midi Outs for each chords layers, depend ONLY who will compose the style/song.

Anyway James, I will contact you by email and maybe we can find some agreement demos with the new GROOVE X6...
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 02:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Well he has already lifted the factory sounds and styles from the Tyros, so I don't think he cares what anyone thinks.




is years that we are waiting some nice legals letters..still waiting...maybe now I get one from Diki?
Are you scared that I resell your demo song?
Honestly...I get ONE legal fax letter from Roland,many years ago...
I was posting online the word: we design the future"
the next day I get the Fax from Roland Italy, to remove asap or they will proceed legally...
Changed to: " We create the future"...no more problems.

Now...after this all chaos about the Qranger..finally I get a nice call conversation from one of the big 3..Qranger and Linuxsampler license and porting engine...
we will see...
Posted by: Irishacts

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 03:05 PM

Quote:
James...I posted this demos NOT for make comparation BUT because the MS is able to running and play simple and complex VST/ASIO and also the Gigalibrary.
Roland Hypercanvas is the last version 1.6.0 available from march 2009 and is not so old.
I hav used it because is full GM/GS 16 tracks, simple to use with the double midiplayer, load the file and play.
The Gigasounbank GM2, is only 1200Mb of data and are not included the full Roland GM/GS program change, so..for some midifiles will be played the first available sounds.


Fair enough, I understand your reasons and it's great that you can run Hypercanvas, I just believe that you should always put your best foot forward and in this case your Giga files are superior to the Hypercanvas. If you give people both versions of the same tune human nature is to question why one sounds better than the other. They are not going to automatically look at in the same way you explained it to me.

Quote:
Anyway James, I will contact you by email and maybe we can find some agreement demos with the new GROOVE X6...


Sounds interesting and I'd certainly be up for that. I assume this is a new product as I don't know the name Groove X6 ?

Have you made any of the detail on that public yet ?

Quote:
is years that we are waiting some nice legals letters..still waiting...


lol.... Your a hilarious. I know it's a gray area because your not reproducing the Yamaha Tyros technology that produces the sound, but it's a risk your taking. I think the fact that you have a non-profit price tag on the library helps you greatly as the copyright on styles allows you to legally do the same and get away with it.

James.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 08-17-2009).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/17/09 04:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
[BThe example is really simple: give one G-70/Tyros 3 to Diki and then you know how will sounds...
Then give the same G-70/Tyros 3 to Michel Voncken...for sure will not sounds the same.. [/B]


Let's put it this way, there's probably a lot LESS difference between what Michael and I can do on a T3/G70, and what an experienced VSTi/style programmer/sound designer and I can do on an MS...

As is so apparent from most of the MS user posts, the skill set to use and create great music on the MS is FAR greater than that needed to create great music on most closed arrangers. No offense to Micheal Voncken, but somehow, I doubt that even HE could pull a masterpiece out of his hat on the MS without CONSIDERABLY more work than it takes to get one out of the T3. Bottom line is, he CAN switch on his T3 and make it sound amazing OOTB. I defy ANYONE to do that on an MS...

So, fair enough... As I've been saying forever, you SHOULD be able to make great music on the MS. But what your customers REALLY need to ask themselves (before they buy one for the 'potential' ) is, do they REALLY have all the skills necessary to turn what is essentially a blank canvas into a masterpiece..? Because I think you'll find the majority of the arranger market (and, to be honest, a fair proportion of the WS market, that certainly wouldn't buy a MotifXS if it came with NO arps already programmed and a soundset that needs the majority of it replaced with other samples) are more a 'paint by numbers' crowd.

In other words, few of us start with pretty much NOTHING, and manage to create great music out of thin air. That's the whole PURPOSE for arranger styles and WS arps... To give us a leg up on creating professional sounding music. Sure, we want to put our own touch on things, but the whole point of an arranger is to help provide the backing tracks as a jumping off point for our own creativity.

NOT have to learn programming styles, loop manipulation and DAW skills just to get a bloody tune out to our friends and families (let's face it, arrangers are still mostly home keyboards, as are a large percentage of even WS's like M3 and MoXS).

I USED to use WS's, samplers, all that stuff, back in the day when arrangers basically sucked, and had to create all my music by hand, slowly, laboriously, tediously (and expensively, like when I had to hire drummers to come in and play my Hart Dynamics kit so my drum tracks didn't sound stiff ). But those days are over. I can use arrangers like G70, T3, PA2Xpro to make superb backing tracks, and use their MIDI data to drive VSTi's at home for recording purposes. All in a FRACTION of the time it used to take.

And I can take that same arranger out on a gig, and it just WORKS. Very little setup, no drama, and all the arranger features (like OnBass, fer Chis' sake ) that a gigging pro needs. Not to be TOO modest, but I think that I AM your 'top end' demographic. I am a pretty technical, computer savvy arranger user. And even I don't want to mess with this. There's a diminishing return with technology. And it diminishes more, every year. To make something noticeably better than a 80's model arranger didn't take that much work But to make something that is significantly better than you can make on a PA2/T3/G70/M3/MoXS takes a LOT of work.

And, lest we forget, the arranger is primarily a LIVE music tool. Most people that NEED to work with VSTi's and loops are already doing it with GIGA, Ableton Live, ProTools, etc., in a studio. But, out on stage, doing what we do for a living, the stability, ease of use and ease of setup is what marks what MOST arranger players need. You can continue to go the course you have chosen, and ignore 99% of the entire arranger/WS market, or you can pay SOME attention to what would make the MS sell in huge numbers, make you a rich man, and make our jobs easier. You have the hardware to do it.

Or, you can continue selling to a tiny handful of people that ARE capable of taming the MS, and quite a few more that simply don't realize how impossible the task is, and think that magically, the MOST technologically advanced arranger will automatically equate to advanced music. Which is VERY apparent (to those not self-delusional) that it doesn't...

Your choice.

BTW, no, you won't be getting a cease and desist letter from me. But it would have been POLITE to ask first. Oh, whoops...! WTF was I thinking? Forgot who I was talking to!
Posted by: cgiles

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/18/09 09:37 AM

Not jumping on any bandwagon to bash the MS, but to emphasize Diki's point about having usable styles instantly available right out of the box, I stumbled across a 'secondary' (as indicate by the 2) style on my PA1x called Acid Jazz 2. It sounded kinda hip so I decided to play an approximation of the tune 'Summertime' over it (probably the wrong tune for the style). Ten minutes later, this was the result. 'Rhodes' in the beginning and piano solo (such as it is) is Roland Fantom G7. Unmixed, unedited, and lots of clunkers, so ignore 'me' and evaluate the style compared to something similar from the MS. Remember, this is a second tier style that I hadn't even checked out before now (and I've had the PA1x Pro for about three years now. Still a great sounding box even though the Roland pianos are better (to my ears). Recorded volume is kinda low so you may have to download it and play through something other than computer speakers.
http://www.box.net/shared/u861xryr6k

chas
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/18/09 11:42 AM

That's pretty cool, chas...

Did you overdub the sax solo? Me, I'd take a crack at hanging a bit of bending and scooping on it to get it a hair more realistic. You know you can't find a sax player anywhere that's going to play dead 'straight' even if you wanted it! But that's a pretty good style. I'll have to see if I've got a translation for that one...
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/18/09 12:00 PM

I use the Acid jazz styles (korg)..on "all" my keyboards..
http://www.yousendit.com/download/YkxMRFFYTmFvQnRFQlE9PQ

This is a converted Korg style from PA series...I filtered out the annoying sax and brass..I like it more basic..just a show off bass player and drummer...It uses a combination 808 kit and new rock...So Diki ..is that a "Hip Hop"??

It was the default E80 sounds...less the sax and acc brass...

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 08-18-2009).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/18/09 12:14 PM

I'd take another crack at that one in the Makeup Tools, Fran... The whole POINT of 'acid jazz' is the acid!

Playing the same rhythms on conventional drums kind of loses the whole point. Try working on this one with one of the Hiphop kits, and you might end up with something more along the lines of chas's sound...

(You are going to have to shed to get up there with chas's PLAYING, though! )
Posted by: cgiles

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/18/09 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
That's pretty cool, chas...

Did you overdub the sax solo? Me, I'd take a crack at hanging a bit of bending and scooping on it to get it a hair more realistic. You know you can't find a sax player anywhere that's going to play dead 'straight' even if you wanted it! But that's a pretty good style. I'll have to see if I've got a translation for that one...


Nope. I didn't overdub the sax. The only overdub is the electric guitar stabs towards the end (outro?). I have the G7 on the tier just above the PA1x. That's why there are no bends. Personally, I kind of like that Korg sax (bathed in 'verb) for certain types of songs. I don't go out of my way to try to emulate real (non-keyboard) instruments; it never works. I just think of it as a unique voice that's somewhat reminicient of a (fill in the blank). In any case, I was just trying to demonstrate a OOTB style vs. same from MS.

Fran (and this has nothing to do with performance), on a side-by-side style comparison, I frankly like the Korg style better, just sounds a little more 'hip' to me ((subjective thing, of course). Was that the G70 or the Mediastation? The sounds were pretty darn good.

chas
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/18/09 01:13 PM

Chas, i guess you and I have to motor down to Diki land...and hear how he does it..."live".. .. .. .. ..:P... .. .. ..
Posted by: cgiles

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/18/09 01:21 PM

Fran, you edited your post after I asked my question (makes my question seem strange - and me too ). Those E80 sounds are pretty darn good. I'm always chasing Diki's (G70) piano sound but never seem to quite get there. He swears it's straight OOTB but I don't know if I believe him .

IMO, the G7 pianos are NOT any better than the SonicCell's (but I like the keybed on the G7 better than the A70 that I use to drive the SonicCell).

chas
Posted by: cgiles

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/18/09 01:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Chas, i guess you and I have to motor down to Diki land...



Not until after hurricane season is over .

chas
Posted by: cgiles

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/19/09 07:39 AM

Fran, this is not a criticism of your performance (Canadian sunset - done, no doubt, as a tribute to Ian ), but it does sort of bring up one of my problems with arranger keyboards (or at least, the way they're used). That involves Intros and Endings. The fact that the average user cannot play at the level of the professionally done Intros and Endings (especially the most complex ones which seem to be the ones most people choose). This makes for a very glaring disconnect with the rest of the song and BTW, doesn't fool anyone. If I ever used an arranger live (I never have), I would use either the simplest ending or, more likely, just the drums (and MAYBE bass) from an ending, and that, just to bring it to a 'tidy' close.

The other thing is to use appropriate lead voices for the particular style. For instance, theatre organ with hip-hop style just sounds bizarre. Lastly, with arrangers, I think we need to try to 'get in touch with' or 'feel' the style and then try to play within that style (as opposed to forcing our style of play onto it).

Just some thoughts (which clearly should be on another thread ). In fact, I think someone should start a thread ie. "Tips on using arranger keyboards 'live' (professionally)".

chas
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/19/09 06:08 PM

Chas that was excellent ! If you were to focus on using the PA1Xpro alone you for the next 3-4 weeks you would be a very dangerous man !!

When an instrument like that is in the hands of someone that is a musician first and a gadget freak after that amazing things happen. Thanks for posting.
Posted by: cgiles

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/20/09 04:50 AM

Thanks, but that was truly just a ten minute exercise trying to demonstrate the importance of good (as in usable, professionally done) styles in an arranger keyboard. I think Diki and some of the others are correct about the MS, in that too much emphasis is placed on (ever changing, rarely finished) technology and not enough on style development and making it sound fantastic OOTB. Frankly, I'd love to have one but I know deep down that I'd never use it as anything other than a sample player (and there are much cheaper ones to be had).

BTW, is that you that works with the kids choirs and all. If so, I think that's great. I'd like to do something like that but with adults (I don't have the patience to deal with kids). I'm not religious but I love Gospel music.

chas
Posted by: mr9000

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/20/09 08:58 AM

You know would be neat,if Cgiles & Diki uploaded more..
Posted by: spalding1968

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/20/09 05:27 PM

yes chas i work with both adult and childrens choirs. Gospel music is wonderful even if you are not religious but it moves up a gear if you are !
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/20/09 07:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
So Diki ..is that a "Hip Hop"??

It was the default E80 sounds...less the sax and acc brass...


Sorry, not even close. You can't use default kits on translations. About the only way to get close is to listen to the original style, then Makeup Tool your brains out to try and match it (and fail miserably most times ). The Korg's have some seriously hip drum kits (derived from the SERIOUSLY radio ready Triton series) and you have to work like crazy to get anything close to them from a Roland. If you could build up User Kits from the available sounds spread over different kits, you might stand a better chance, but Roland don't let you do this.

A few years ago, I tried to get members here interested in making a database of recordings of ROM styles from each major arranger, for the purpose of providing a reference when it comes to translations, but no-one seemed interested. IMO, it's the only way, especially with complicated modern rhythms, to get anywhere near the original feel and sound.

In the meantime, maybe you could force yourself to listen to some hiphop, on the jazz tip, and maybe get a better idea of what you should shoot for? Maybe some Mary J Blige, John Legend, Jill Scott Heron, things like that? Nothing too gangsta...
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/23/09 12:57 PM

Quote:
The Korg's have some seriously hip drum kits (derived from the SERIOUSLY radio ready Triton series) and you have to work like crazy to get anything close to them from a Roland. If you could build up User Kits from the available sounds spread over different kits, you might stand a better chance, but Roland don't let you do this.

Diki you are wrong about roland! you can use more then one drumkit in a style, i used this in roland Va-76 with Micro Edit and program change in microedit. i have a some styles where i used 5 drum kits in one pattern. you can also use different drumkits for intro-fill-variation and endings

micro edit option from roland is the best that i have ever seen, but ths possible in MS in differents way. if roland some day take the variphrase back in arrangers and allow to add variphrase loops in styles then roland wil win from korg and yamaha. mybe they can add sampling options from fantom synths to the arranger


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 08-23-2009).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/23/09 01:50 PM

You can put different kits into different style divisions, but you can't combine elements from two different kits at the same time. There is only the one drum track. If a sound is only available in the one kit, you can't have it sound while a second kit does the main rhythm.

Every Roland kit contains quite a few 'alternate' sounds, primarily kicks and snares, and the Makeup Tools section allows you to easily change out these rather than the pre-programmed sound. But is by no means comprehensive. Each kit basically only has the one set of hihats, toms, crashes, etc.. There is no way to take, for instance, the hihats of one kit and combine them with the rest of the kit from another. And certainly no way to store these edits (when you CAN make them), other than in the ONE style you are working on.

You certainly don't get the ability to create your own 'custom' kit out of ALL the arranger's available sounds, and you can't run two drum tracks simultaneously, only one at a time. Yes, you aren't limited to one kit for the whole style, but there are still significant limitations to what you CAN do....

If you have found some kind of 'back door' way to combine say the hihats from one kit with the drum sounds of another, I would be VERY interested in hearing how...
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/23/09 02:17 PM

Quote:
You can put different kits into different style divisions, but you can't combine elements from two different kits at the same time. There is only the one drum track. If a sound is only available in the one kit, you can't have it sound while a second kit does the main rhythm.

Every Roland kit contains quite a few 'alternate' sounds, primarily kicks and snares, and the Makeup Tools section allows you to easily change out these rather than the pre-programmed sound. But is by no means comprehensive. Each kit basically only has the one set of hihats, toms, crashes, etc.. There is no way to take, for instance, the hihats of one kit and combine them with the rest of the kit from another. And certainly no way to store these edits (when you CAN make them), other than in the ONE style you are working on.

You certainly don't get the ability to create your own 'custom' kit out of ALL the arranger's available sounds, and you can't run two drum tracks simultaneously, only one at a time. Yes, you aren't limited to one kit for the whole style, but there are still significant limitations to what you CAN do....

If you have found some kind of 'back door' way to combine say the hihats from one kit with the drum sounds of another, I would be VERY interested in hearing how...


it is posible in micro edit ans insert a program change, and then select the drum kits and the key note you want to insert you can in micro edit, edit everthing in a style

i used this in roland va-76. you have for 4 map sounds in roland va-76, map 4 is the new sounds for roland va-76 and the first 3 are from first roland arranger keyboard and one roland module, i have used this not only on map 4 drum kits but i recorded als like a hihats from one kit and the bas drum from a second key and conga from a other key, i think roland is the only from big 3 with this option. you can also do this for ACC instruments in a style like C from one guitar E from one guitar and G from one guitar... to create a creazy Chord but the best is to use it for drumkits,

i can send you a style that i made some years a go becouse i have no roland any more.
but i do not no if this wotk for G-70 becouse you have only one soudset but you have micro edit with more options in g-70 you most read the manual with patence i am sure its possible on G-70 to.
Posted by: AFG Music

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/23/09 02:51 PM

here is the prove. look at the event list in this image from emc style works xt with pluspackage activeted:

[img=http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1562/emcstyleworks.th.jpg]

or this link:
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1562/emcstyleworks.jpg


you see i also used rythm fx in the midi drum loop
Posted by: Nedim

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/23/09 07:20 PM

This will be in the new OS!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb4EZjyxRDg
Posted by: Diki

Re: New Video Added by Lionstracs - 08/23/09 08:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AFG Music:
here is the prove. look at the event list in this image from emc style works xt with pluspackage activeted:

[img=http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1562/emcstyleworks.th.jpg]

or this link:
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1562/emcstyleworks.jpg


you see i also used rythm fx in the midi drum loop



Well, you learn something new every day! I would never have thought that a bunch of notes, all on exactly the same clock tick, with PC#'s preceding them would all actually come out in order... That's pretty cool. (I presumer the timing stays good?)

Mind you, I can see this as mind numbingly tedious to do when trying to combine several elements from different kits. Is there any way to automate this in Styleworks?

I've analyzed a bunch of ROM styles, and I've never seen this technique used in any of the ROM styles... I guess even Roland didn't know this trick. Thanks for showing this old dog a new trick...

BTW, do you have this example G70 style (what is shown in the .jpg you posted)? I'd like to make sure that doing this doesn't upset the timing of the groove. Most things I've ever sent a boatload of PC#'s to at a time take a while to process them. That's why I always put a bar of silence in at the start of a sequence, to allow the PC#'s to take before it has to start playing...