Are Arrangers really headed for the refuse heap?

I understand Diki thinks they will go the way of the home Organ but what is he basing that assumption on? An Arranger and the Home Organ are two completely different beasts that really don't intertwine in their complexities other than the fact that Arrangers are getting more and more expensive (opposite of computer technology prices in general by the way) while Home Organs were getting extremely expensive too upon their demise from the mainstream. >> Think Wersi..

But other than the fact of these astronomical prices we're starting to see for our beloved high-end arrangers will that be the "only" reason that will finally break the camel's back and cause arrangers to disappear from the mainstream of music making?? Maybe Diki can chime in here (like he won't, right? ) and explain to us again his reasoning for arrangers going the way of the home organ.

I just don't see it really, in my opinion. I mean if arrangers go away why wouldn't Workstations go away with them as well?? High End Workstations are expensive too right? Although I do agree that there is becoming a real disparity in price with each subsequent high end Arranger released to the market. In some cases you can get a fully blown workstation for "thousands less" than some of the high-end arrangers showing up. I won't mention any names though... Of course arrangers do have a limitation (that is currently trying to be corrected and/or amended as we speak) and that is the "looped", canned, and served on the same 'dull' platter - auto-accompaniment type approach. Which is very limiting if you ask me, or for that matter, ask any other arranger keyboardist on the planet, who will most likely agree along those same lines in my humble opinion. Ketron, on the other hand, went out on a limb to try and correct that anomaly and have improved upon the concept with the Audya in that there is more randomness placed into the equation and it's probably going to be one of the big draws for people getting an Audya i.e. less of the canned approach and more of the "random" or varied approach in the style auto-accompaniment.

I imagine Yamaha, Korg, and Roland are researching how to implement "randomness" into their arranger style equation and in fact I understand Yamaha has recently applied for a patent that will indeed do just that. Will it be implemented in the Tyros4?? Who knows, but I suspect it might. If it also has 76 keys I may just get it too..

Okay, back to the "demise" of arrangers. I don't think they'll go the way of the home organ for the simple reason that arrangers are actually very portable, whilst home organs weighed a ton and were very impractical in their overall design. Just think Wersi.. Sorry Bill, but it is a well known fact that Wersi's not only cost a king's ransom they also weigh a ton to boot. And therefore are not practical, in my opinion, for the majority of gigging musicians. And when I say "majority" I mean in the neighborhood of.. oh, roughly about 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999 percent of arranger keyboardists on the planet. No offense Bill but Wersi is "set it and forget it" all the while paying a king's ransom to own it. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img] That pig just won't fly for the majority of people, however much Wersi might will or want it to happen. But I'm sure Wersi has their rich clientele who don't mind those two obvious limitations of the Wersi i.e. the weight and the price. And I'm really surprised Wersi is still holding on through this major world financial storm. More power to them if they can indeed hang on to their purse strings through these rouge wave times. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/eek.gif[/img]

Back to the demise of "portable" arrangers.. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] Why?? What have they done to deserve such a prophecy of destruction and the elimination from musician's music making arsenals? Right, nothing. I really believe arrangers WILL survive and thrive through the 21st century and possibly beyond. The Piano has survived for hundreds of years right? [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img]

Arrangers are portable (you can carry them under one arm in many instances), convenient (band in a box type scenario), reliable (some Brands more than others of course [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img]), affordable (in most cases).. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img], and they are getting more complex in how they function and operate (better sounding, etc.), and more "natural" and random as opposed to stale and canned of yesteryear - that is the goal anyway for the future, and presently concerning the Audya. When you think about it, the only thing that "really" separates arrangers from workstations is that arrangers have style auto-accompaniment whereas 'most' workstations aren't noted for their arranger aspects and capabilities. Although ALL three of the Big Three's latest Workstations do indeed have a semblance of auto-accompaniment arranger type function(s) and features on them i.e. the Motif XS, Korg M3, and Roland Fantom G series. They are much more constrained in their approach and functionality, nevertheless they still incorporate some arranger type functions in them. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/cool.gif[/img] I actually think workstations will "grow" in their arranger type capabilities and eventually they might "meld" workstations and arrangers together into "one" machine. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] There will most likely always be a need for "digital pianos" without arranger type features or functions, but the future may indeed bring 'workstations' and 'arrangers' together as one device under one title down the road. So if that's going to be the "real" demise of arrangers I think I can live with that. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/cool.gif[/img] OTOH, if arranger type functions and features (in a keyboard form) disappear from the face of the planet, Diki may then want to think about changing his identity and assuming an alias >> because people aren't going to take it lightly, if you know what I mean. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] Who are they going to blame?? >> Diki of course, because he was the originator who conjured up such a dastardly thought and idea in the first place. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] Watch your back dude.. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/mad.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img]

All the best,
Mike


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 02-26-2009).]

Arrangers will Always be around as long as Yamaha makes a CVP Clavinova. Arrangers took the place of the Home Organ. Home players who are not schooled and want to play out of EZ play books love them. Apparently there is an OMB market who love them as well.

Perhaps Roland is abandoning the Arranger market, But Yamaha still has a very profitable arranger division and the technology trickled all the way down tto the $300 413.....No Arrangers aren't going away. In fact quite the opposite. I run into people everyday who did not even KNOW THEY EXIST in the form of the 900 series.

I demoed one in December with 4 watching. ALL had no idea the technology was available. All were over 50 (which was the typical organ market. Every single person in that little crowd came back in January and bought one. I sold a Tyros to someone who has been lurking this board since November, He is sight impaired and they drove down from Virgina! I spent about four hours demoing the Tyros and he bought it and a P-85 to uses as a controller.
At the end of the deal he told me he came as a result of the forum! Imaging that. Someone actually likes my blunt opinion. If you are reading, Thanks Mike....Enjoy.

hahahahah thanx for the laugh.....Arrangers are here to stay....it's the real players that keep dropping off.

What, end up with Roland having the entire market to itself?

Hi Mike

Arrangers came from Home Organs, (The 1 finger chord systems added to organs probably also led to the collapse in the 80s. (Why buy an organ when you can do the same easy play with a single keyboard)

Organs however have made a comeback, (Just not on the scale they used too be) Hammonds and there clones are all over the place, Lowery, Bohm, Wersi Orla, Allan and Roland have introduced new models, Yamahas are being imported all over the world, and Kawai has recently re-started organ production.

It seems mainly the US users that have a problem with weight, as Roland Ateliers, (Heavier then Wersi) Wersi, Bohm, Hammond and for concerts even Lowery (Now that�s weight) are played by artists all over, and never a moan about weight. (Even the female artists (Who by there physical nature should theoretically be complaining) never seem to have problems)

BTW the Wersi Xenios portable organ only weighs about 5 pounds more then a G70, and Wersi prices tend to slip into the middle/upper of organ price scales.

Will arrangers die, as we know them today, probably, will they evolve, a good certainty.

Interesting topic

Regards

Bill

Indeed they will> Baby Boomers who want to stay home and entertain themselves love them. The adult "Rock Band" I see a booming market for Arrangers. I also see an "ignorant" public as to the fact that they exist. I rarely run into tanyone who is not agahst at the technology,

AS far as freestyle arrangements,,Kurzweil did that yeasr ago to some extent. We have a trade in on one and it actually shanges whats playing based on the CHORD, whether its a minor or major...intersting.

Good thread... and some good counter arguments...

You might not take me quite so literally, though. Home organs, as you point out, are not completely dead. But in comparison to their heyday, let's just say the hearse is drawing up to the cemetery

I don't have access to sales figures, but I think just from looking at how scarce in stores these things have become, and the rise of WS loop and arp sounds becoming the norm in pop music, that arranger sales are drooping. To a large extent, the market is driven by youth. And youth is NOT buying arrangers. They are buying MoXS's, FantomG's, M3's, etc.. All keyboards that, in most cases, are CONSIDERABLY less expensive than their arranger counterparts, to be honest, they sound on the whole a lot better, definitely more contemporary and capable of making today's music. And have capabilities in MOTL models that are rare even on TOTL arrangers.

The thing is, once the younger players stopped playing organs because they didn't keep up with the synth technology and sounds of the day, and cost a fortune compared to the synths that WERE becoming the norm, those players never went back. At least not in numbers sufficiently large enough to keep the industry healthy. All that is left of this once dominant market segment is boutique organs at boutique prices.

To be honest, I see this as the future of the arranger, in the long run. No-one, in the late sixties, early seventies would have agreed that that was going to happen, just as many here don't think the same fate could occur to the arranger. But if you take the long view, many of the same factors are in play.

Unless youth can be encouraged, by the manufacturers adding WS loop and arp capabilities and contemporary sounds (and not at a $5000 price tag! Ketron, WTF were they thinking ), to start to seriously consider the arranger as a viable instrument for making TODAY'S music on, where else can the arranger go but to the happy hunting ground of the 'home organ'?

"WTF was Ketron thinking ?"

Do you think the decline of the US Dollar could be a problem ??

Using metal vs. plastic ?
Made in Italy vs. China ?

What was Korg thinking when the Oaysis was priced at $8000 ?

Or Kurzweil having prices of $6500 for a fully blown out K2600XS ?

Do you think the US distributor wants a $5000 price tag ?

It's all about economic conditions... Which happen to be the worst we've seen since the great depression ... At least that's what is in the news ...



[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 02-26-2009).]

Sorry, Dan, but Y K & R's current TOTL offerings are a good grand LESS than the Audya. That's a HUGE spike up in price. Without much in the way of trickle down MOTL products, Ketron have bet the farm that arranger players are willing to fork out $1500 more than a T3 for the Audya.

Kind of reminds me of the demise of organs, to be honest. They went upscale, and priced themselves out of the game...

Oh, and you MIGHT have noticed that the Oasys and the K2600 (the 2600X was an 88 weighted version of the less expensive 2600 76 note version) have both been discontinued. Ketron are perhaps learning this lesson a little late.

A $2500 MotifXS or FantomG is pretty much capable of doing all the modern keyboardist really needs in a live situation, and software rules in the studio. Getting twice as much is a tough sell, even without the recession. Let's face it, even if the recession hadn't happened, when T3's are going for $3500, a $5000 Audya was going to be a tough sell...

The ROM nature of the Audya's audio loops (except for the drums) point towards this product as being hardly future-proofed. As soon as Ketron figure out how to reliably stream more than one audio stream at a time, you are going to have to sell it. Or simply be content with the ROM styles (if you want that audio sheen) for as long as you keep it. I'm sorry, but I see this as a transitional product, at best. And an astronomically high priced transitional product at that...

Without a product that offers these capabilities down in the $2500 range, Ketron have made a very costly gamble by not offshoring like most other manufacturers have, and recognizing that build quality doesn't seem to be much of a priority compared to features (look how much flack my G70 gets!). It's a tough world out there....

Just as a matter of interest, I remember reading a quote at the Karma forums, I think it was, that Korg are to release (well were, before this financial hoo-ha) the Oasys MK II later this year.

I don't know how "informed" the poster was, but there you go.

By the way, Diki I totally agree with you that the makers HAVE to target the under 30's market with arrangers if they are to survive.

In my view, I think THAT is indeed what will happen with the next generation. Makers will simply add the arrnager engine to the workstation.

I would not be surprised to see Roland be the first to do this with their G series.

You have got to admit Roland do some dumb things, but when they do something right it's brilliant.

Dennis

PS: Not that I would be interested, as I have bought my last hardware keyboard

Seems like Yamaha is FAR ahead of Roland in this regard. The XS needs so little corrected for it's OS to be arranger capable, and then it's simply a case of newer arps (which could probably be imported fro the MIDI output of current arranger's patterns, Intro endings, fills, etc) to make it usable.

But without Music Finders, lyric displays and a revised system for accessing those styles (oops, arps!), they still have a ways to go to equal the shear user friendliness of the arranger.

But Yamaha have made a start... Roland, not so much

Yes, true. Yamaha would certainly get the jump on most, with perhaps the M3 a close second?

LOL, just add the engine to a workstation, get Stevie to rave about it, and then watch the orders come in...Well maybe thats a bit simplistic but you get what I mean.

Roland have gone off the boil I reckon. Starting late last year and so far this year..It's hard to know where they are going really..

Dennnis

I guess it is the immediate doom & gloom you predict that gets on my nerves..

In 1988 I sold Yamaha PSR-90's for $899.00 & I purchased a PSR4600 for $1200. The Korg M-1 sold for $1500.00. I sold Lowrey Home Organs for $30,000.00 ... People do all kinds of things... I guess value is perceived in different ways and I have to learn to disregard your comments.

Indeed they did and if the Fantom would have made such a start instead, I would have bought it....I actually may have passed on the T3 altogether if I bothered to deep research the Motif instead of assuming it would be another a hip hop loop manufacturing station or feared the learning curve of the beast. Nothing would thrill me more than having it be able to replace the T3 in its entirety. I would love to bank $2500...But the XS won't replace it but enhance the overall experience.

Perhaops the T4 or Motif ZS with meld the two.....but I doubt Yamaha wants that.

Maybe they won't have a choice King, and will do it just to stay competitive??? We CAN hope

Dennis

I will be astonished if Lowrey survived the current financial unpleasantness. Even with Kawai propping them up.

Many people probably do not know that Ketron supplied many of the styles for Lowrey...

Just use what you have and practise much more to sound better versus thinking a new keyboard will do that for you.

As long as technology makes life easier, the products of that technology will survive. As long as human beings are lazy (and proud of it) and instant gratification is the order of the day, painless weight-loss scams and arranger keyboards will be with us. In other words, forever. So forget those boring music lessons. Just keep bugging the manufacturers for more of those features that allow us to play less but enjoy it more. Let's face it, arranger keyboards are the porn of the music business. Think about it, instant gratification, no partner necessary, nothing to learn; a perfect analogy. They'll both be around forever. Stop worrying guys. Everything's cool.

chas

Arrangers akin to porn - what an absurd idea - except when I think about how much time I spend with my PSR2000......just her and I.

I agree with Diki here. Of the some what six thousand ARPs in the XS, about half of them are capable of recognizing chord changes. That's half the battle. I have a feeling that we're going to see something very soon which will incorporate both feature sets from Yamaha within the next couple of years.

Ha! I'm not surprised Ketron keep that quiet!

Hey, it's not like I WANT to see the arranger die out!

I just call it the way I see it...

Nobody wanted to see the organ die off, but economics, technology and changing music tastes made it happen. None of those processes have stopped, IMO

How many arranger manufacturers have gone under in the last ten or fifteen years? Not exactly the sign of a healthy market segment. If Technics, Solton, GEM and others can no longer make it, if Wersi and some others are hanging on by their fingernails, surely it's not doom and gloom to see a trend? I'm not talking about next year, maybe not the next ten years (although that's close to the figure I expect), but it is happening. Look at the age average on this forum.

None of us getting any younger!

Overhere in europe Keyboards still sell a lot better then full blown synthesizers..

All of these assumptions are based on the US market. which is a niche market for arrangers and currently of no relevance at all.

This allready starts out with the current salesmen in your local music shop.

No they are not heading for the refuse heap but they are changing into more workstation type products or workstations will take on more and more arranger functions.

My understanding is that Solton is strictly a Brand.. it was never a manufacturer . The name was used to brand Ketron products in the USA & than became the brand name for GEM ..

I'm glad Yamaha is Strong & Striving they must be doing something right

Solton was or is a distributor company. . Ketron used their name since it was already popular in Europe. When Solton put their name on Ketron�s keyboards it always also said by �Ketron Labs�.

As robust (comparatively) as arranger sales are in Europe and elsewhere, it failed to stop these manufacturers from going out of business. I really AM trying to take the big picture into account...

From what I have read, it is beginning to be harder over there to find some of the TOTL arrangers, especially Roland and Ketron (and to a degree, Korg) in regular stores that USED to stock them ten, fifteen years ago. The trend may be slower, but seems to still be happening. Europe is still the heartland of home organ music too, but that hasn't equated to a robust industry, at least by sixties and seventies standards.

Those that chose the home organ route haven't been in sufficient numbers to stop it still being boutique manufacturers at boutique prices. Hopefully, I am dead wrong. But until I see that true arranger/WS hybrid (labeling the case 'WS' doesn't make any of our modern arrangers one in fact ) I still worry...

Maybe it's just the arrangers turn to be in the gear trough, while other types are riding the wave or on the way up?

We all know that musical trends come and go. And the more things change the more they stay the same.

The arranger will come back strongly again, although what the time cycle for it will be, who knows!!

Dennis

How about a selfish viewpoint? I don't CARE because anything I get now COULD last me the rest of my career.
NAW!!!!
DonM

Don dont laugh that is a very very true staetment for sure...

I would not say that it can never happen... after all, we have seen our government and banking institutions, brokerage firms and politicians betray our trust, confidence and core beliefs... so, I suppose it is possible for arrangers to go the way of the dinosaur... but it would be a tragedy. I'd sure be lost without mine.

Dave Rice
http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/DaveRice

Well let's look at what would happen if all arrangers suddenly disappeared.

Military bands-------------no effect
High school/college bands--no effect
School music programs------no effect
TV Studio Bands------------no effect
Amatuer/Pro Symphony Orch.-no effect
Opera----------------------no effect
Grand ol' Opera------------no effect
Coffee houses--------------no effect
Jazz groups----------------no effect
Rock groups----------------no effect
Hip Hop/Rap groups---------no effect
Country/Western------------no effect
Latin groups---------------no effect
Schlager-------------------Disaster
99% of Churches------------no effect
Talented OMB's-------------no effect
Not-so-talented OMB's------a serious thinning of the herd

Just my take on it.

chas

Oh, almost forgot. Organ trio---Blessing

Chas... post of the week ROFLMAO

And I've got to agree with DonM... If they never make another one, my gigging needs are already well taken care of. Just need a backup or two now

I agree. I can have the ideal gigging instrument in any of these...the Yamaha T2/T3/S900, although the latter works best for now.

I suspect Yamaha will carry on for many more arranger cycles, but if not, all is well at the present offerings.

Then again, I sure would miss the delights of trying out a shiny new arranger and the technological advances it would bring, so I hope new arrangers will continue to be made well into the future.

If not, I know that, at the very least, present arrangers are already powerful enough to gig with, and thankfully I divide my time between playing solo arranger/piano and working and jamming with other musicians so I feel prepared for any changes that may come along.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 03-01-2009).]

Hi All

Check the population records for the western world.

Retirees (Most of which are comfortable financially) are the biggest growth area, with the younger ones falling behind; therefore the market for arrangers/organs is actually growing not shrinking.

Regards

Bill

I agree. We sell more year after year in the three or four years I have been there. Instant gratification rules the day. ANYONE can make these things sing.

The new home organ. From my understanding home organs sold for far more money than these boards even with yesterday's higher buying power dollar. Yamaha knows this all too well and is filling the Lowery hole.

Upright sales are all but dead, I have people asking for Arrangers in 5' Baby Grand shells!

Yamaha are you listening???



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 03-01-2009).]

I feel genuinely sorry for those who cannot reap the joys and benefits of using an arranger, especially in a solo OMB situation and are stuck with the traditional instruments like piano and organ and perhaps synthesizer.

There are several members on this forum who admit they find that arrangers are "toys" and not really "legitimate " instruments in their own right.

Too bad there are those of vision so short and egos so tall...they remind me of little boys who grow up too fast, and delight in telling the others there is no Santa Claus, or Easter Bunny...they want to appear so "adult" and so much wiser, yet secretly they wish they still had the child-like wonder of their peers.

After listening to many people play arranger, I cannot agree that just ANYONE can make them sing...in fact, few can take it to a level like we see in the hands of demonstrators, or the more adroit players we hear and see on YouTube and the arranger forums, although the "average Joe' can make acceptable and very listenable music on one, certainly enough to please himself and his friends and family.

I think arrangers have their place as evidenced by all the fun and joy as reported to me by my clients and of course, the testimonials by users here on SZ, some of them making a very good living using one.

Froggy, I thought you were familiar with the CVP-409 GP which is an a arranger in a grand piano case?

I believe Roland make similar instruments in their KR range.

Ian

Don't know who you're referring to, Ian, but as for me, I think arrangers are technological marvels which, in the right hands, can produce acceptable (though predictable) music. I just don't think anyone will compose a 'Beethoven's Fifth' with one (on the other hand, they probably won't on a pan flute either). Also, any comments, thoughts, or attitudes, I may have about 'Arrangers' is ALWAYS in reference to the instrument being used in it's primary role and in the most traditional (basic) way; LH chords, RH melody/solo. I think they are great tools to produce all but a finished product. JMO.

chas

I imagine the traditional way of playing organ would be in that category as well, Chas...LH chords that support the RH melody, which is why a great many arranger players are former organists.

I have a buddy who plays jazz organ on a CVP-309, and he is pretty awesome...sometimes he uses midi pedals, but generally he can can make it honk with just a good bebop or fast jazz style....pretty hard to distinguish it from a Hammond (he does a great J.Smith impersonation), but it is in the phrasing and dynamics that he manages to pull off such a great performance, and he is not held back by any preconceived limitations of the instrument.

Using custom styles of the performer's own making, also goes a long way to lifting an arranger performance above the standard fare...or using custom voices or layers that one can't get on a piano or traditional(Hammond or clone wheel) to bring a new level to one's presentation of a piece of music.

And of course, there are the chords themselves, and inventive use of them (like using ON BASS, or cool extensions) on an arranger really makes a big difference in the quality of a piece.

There are those who will manage to shine in their respective fields, whether it be arranger playing, jazz/pop organ or just playing LH bass and chords behind a singer or soloist....it all depends on the player and just how far they want to take it.

Long live the the arranger...one of my favorite tools, and a terrific piece of work, considering it's humble origins as an add-on to home organs.

Ian

Ian....I also feel that the better arranger KB players are former organ players versus Piano players that play in full in Kb mode vs split mode..........I dont know if it's a chord recognition thing or what ....but there is a difference for sure.

I gotcha Donny, I find that full keyboard mode(even on the Roland, which seems to have the best so far) is very poor if you try and play as you would ordinarily play a piano...very limiting and it requires a big change in technique.

The split mode is far better, and of course, very comfortable for organ players, or former accordion players as well.

I don't know how far full keyboard recognition can be taken, but so far it is still very limiting.

Ian

I agree totally Ian...split mode was the original intention...full mode seems to be an afterthought to lure piano players into the arranger world.

Ha! I've said that of nearly every instrument I've ever owned. Wishful thinking at its best.

Having said that, as far as Roland arrangers have been concerned, I've usually been able to wring close to ten years use out of each one I've gigged with since the late eighties. Perhaps Roland need to look at aping the engineered-in obsolescence of their competitors to generate more sales.

Roland knows what they are doing with their sights directly pointed toward the working Pro vs the Home player enthusiast. Ten years in between changes says something

Donny, I don't disagree with you, but if that's true, it seems pretty dumb. There are gazillions more 'home players' than working Pro's, and if their purchasing history (Lowry, Wersi, Thomas, etc.) is any indicator, they're probably better heeled, as well. Oh well, no one ever said those wonderful folks at Roland were marketing geniuses.

chas

oh my have things progressed since 2009

Well...

I saw some comments about oasys in this thread... way to expensive... yet now we know that the Oasys gave birth to Kronos, which by bow has blown Yamaha out of the high end workstation market..

And then there is diki expecting a very short lifespan for the audya...


Just read back the thread, and you will see how wrong some people where 8 years ago...

Oh Yes Bachus I remember it very well ....lol

“Are Arrangers really headed for the refuse heap”?
I apologize for saying this but I feel it is part of life.
Are Arrangers really headed for the refuse heap, no but arranger players are.

It is the player that has dated the arranger keyboard; the same way that the organ players dated the organ.
It is part of life – my friend use the term; “The wheel turns”. How true -- but not sad. The imagination of a musician dies first; that does not have to be. To sit with;– “If only it were this way”. “If only this could change then I would be alright”.

I’m still playing my keyboard – programing all my songs into my Pa4x – built add-ons, and I have not played a job in almost three years. The joy is in me and it seems to be all over what I am doing.

Just sharing my feelings, John C.

I take no responsibility for anything I said more than 5 minutes ago .

chas

John, ...when the enjoyment of sitting down & playing for yourself ends it's all over,....

“Without music, life would be a mistake.”

Donny your words of wisdom touch me. I’m thinking of copying some of your wisdom and make a book. (smile) Thanks, John C.

PS, by this fall I will be making the big decision – Do I play out again? Either way this guy is going to stay happy.

Thanx John....I really hope you play out again soon.....go for it!!