korg arranger survey

http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/news/survey.html

interesting. i bet korg prepares the future pa line... better say, they would probably adjust the final concept ideas...

Once again...I am impressed with Korg.

They are asking us (not just Korg current owners) what we want and need!

I sincerely believe they will consider everything said...and we will see a lot of it in the future.

I have many things to give them on the survey and appreciate them asking.

Lee S.

With this survey Are they already discarding the pax series units .........what will they release next.
better sell what you have now while the price is right......

I think its about OSing again. I'll find out.

To be honest, they have been ignoring users', and potential users' requests for better fills, and more fills for quite a long time. Not to mention a less convoluted OS and filing system.

A survey is one thing, but actually incorporating the requests is another.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-25-2009).]

Interesting how negativity rears its ugly head again. Must be nice to be perfect

I don;t think Korg is keeping up with Roland and Yamaha.....

I thought the M3 was WS to own for awhile yet the The M3 88 is now lowered to $2600 while Yamaha is raising their MAP prices of the Motif XS8 $300 to $3600 and Roland is offering $300 Rebates on their Fantom G8 WS.

Korg had the top workstations for the past 20 or so years starting with the M1 and continuing through the Triton series.

Something went awry with the M3 since they had to lower their price and now are suddenly asking for feedback.....I think Korg is grasping for something here. We had an M50 show up DOA and a PA50 with a cracked case in the past couple months out of a total of six boards we ordered.

Perfect? Hardly...

Correct on the point I made? Undoubtedly

The more I think about it, you're right. With this survey, perfect time to request those fixes

I played the M3 in the store ...feels like a cheap toy.........but I like the sparkle paint job

Best of luck with those. I really hope they come, soon. The PA800, especially now OS2 has arrived, is one of my favorite potential pieces of gear to get. SA capability (and user programmability of it), a really well integrated Guitar Mode (I love the Roland's, but you can't use it in style mode), sampling, it's got a lot going for it. But two or three fills per style, now that I'm used to the G70's seven (and still wish I had more! ) on a four variation arranger seems unnecessarily limited, and having to load a BANK up just to audition one style again seems old-fashioned.

To be honest,there really isn't that much to fix to make the Korg's a LOT better. It's just they have been dragging their feet for quite a while on these issues...

Things to ADD might be quite a list. Given Korg's willingness to cross pollinate arrangers and WS's, though, maybe now is the time for them to leapfrog ahead of the competition, and start incorporating some arpeggiation and loop playback features from the WS line, and finally give us the 21st century arranger we all have been waiting for...

Of all the main manufacturers, only Korg seem to be willing to let an arranger seriously compete against their WS line...

Yes, all the above is nice. I really like the 800 'break' - so much potential for live use. Don't think I can live without that feature, as trite as it sounds.

While Yamaha does the opposite and brings the Arranger into their Workstation Line.

Sadly incomplete, yet, King. Have you got your MoXS yet..?

The thing that drove me crazy is that you can't trigger a fill when you feel like. They HAVE to be triggered a bar in advance, and I just can't get my head around that. Not to mention that the controls for all that are less than optimal for your LH to use. In the studio, that's not the biggie it is live, though...

And general opinion is that the SA features of the XS are a pale shadow of how easy they are to play on the Tyros2/3. But whatever direction the flow is in, I'm just happy to see ANY flow. If it takes having to use a WS with arranger features to get what I want, who cares? A rose, is a rose, is a rose...

But also dont forget that Korg lately focuses on other markets especially the Arrangers.

From time to time I've posted about my desire to have a PA (800 or Pa2X) module. Korg has not completly said that they would never offer a module, saying only that they don't feel that there is currently a market for another Korg module (the last one was the i40M). I've expressed this need for a module based on the PA technology on this and several other forums. I hope that the people who said they would certainly buy a module if it were offered take this opportunity to let Korg know that fact so that they can determine if there is indeed a market - or not - by the numbers of requests for such a module that accompany this survey. Thank All.
Ciao,
Jerry

The thing I've seen lately, Jerry, is guitarists using looper pedals to provide their own accompaniment, rather than arranger modules. This has GOT to have shrunk the market for arranger modules, I'm afraid...

It was pretty small in the first place. Any loss has got to make it that much harder to recoup the investment in making one...

NO Dammit...I called Yamaha today. Be here tomorrow or Friday. Its ok though I have been reading and reading and reading and printing PDFS and reading and watching YouTube tutorials.....

I am not expecting the XA voices to outperform the Tyros. I am expecting the 6000+ Arps to surpass the Muti Pad Arps though. The workflow at first glance seems slick using linear /pattern based song construction. 8 elements per voice is something I am looking forward to messing with, One would think with 8 elements (vs 4 on my Dimension VSTI sampler) some nice articulations could be had, But Im not holding my breath on that one.

The INTEGRATION with the DAW is the problem I needed solving and the main reason I decided on the XS despite having a Yamaha Soundset already. 88 weighted keys is number two, The rest will be icing and reveal itself as I learn how to get around the beast. Right now I am wondering how to integrate it using the digital output into the Firebox since two firewire ports cannot be used in ASIO. So I either go in digitally, or buy a USB interface for the Tyros and use the FW on the XS, I am not a big fan of FW since USB 2.0.

AS far as fills go. I don't see it beating the AI of the Tyros. The T3 is fool proof on Fills.It knows which beat and how long the fill needs to be, Don't know about the XS. I suspect its not an Arranger in that regard.

Needless to say its going to make the previously "complicated" Tyros look like a PSR 213 in simplicity. I hope I am not in over my head.......25 year old brains are far more technically savvy than 50 year old ones.I may have to buy the "DVD tutorial" set from PC Professor LOL...

Sorry Diki, not true.
They can also be set to trigger immediately.

There switch to change it. Factory default is one bar in advance.

What I didn't get, was that on the module the arps can be triggered by a footpedal, obviously as there are no buttons, but why Yamaha have never allowed this on any keyboard Motif (any series) is beyond me.

Dennis

Sorry Dennis, but that is only PARTIALLY true...

Yes, you can set an arp or loop to trigger immediately, but it is no longer in sync with the music. In other words, if you have a one bar fill, and call for it on beat 2, it starts on it's beat 1 and plays for a bar, not starts on beat 2 and plays for three beats. It is utterly irritating...

I dont know if someone mentioned at all but besides styles Audya is also equiped with an
Arpegiator, a nice one.

in my oppinion, the best about korg it is it's sound. to me, as a MOTL arranger user, roland did not offer what korg offered years ago. yes, i was happy with roland E60 having six fills and so on, but really, soundwise it has been behind G70. this was not the case with my Pa50, compared to Pa80. and if i am not wrong, today the pa500 offers the same sound (except for the latest OS2) as pa800/pa2x.

another strong point with korg is they offer more alternatives compared with roland, when it comes about assigning buttons, functions and so on. even in the MOTL arrangers.

and about this survey, i must say i can not remember of any other manufacturer doing this. even if they wont do more than 1% of the suggestion (you realize there will be literally tousands of replies) at least they publicly asked for customers oppinion. i appreciate this. is it only for image? i doubt it, as by asking they "promise" to listen and do something...

i must say i am very curious what will all the manufacturers come up with next, but most of all, i am curious about korg.

Did not Korg do this Survey Before...When the PA-800 or PA2X was Produced or Marketed...I was thinking I remember About Sliders and many other features being requested???

Harold

Keep in mind that the Korg OAsys is still the best sounding hardware synth ever made....


Korg should add the option to play Oasys sounds and instruments on their top keyboards..

Korg should add teh KARMA engine and combine it with the styles of a keyboard...

Korg should add an Interface that allows you to controll VSt's that are running on a networked computer, but controllable from the new keyboards touch screen...

Korg should make their styles an open standard so everyone can easilly make styles and/or convert them from other systems and tweak them.

Korg should add more real time controllers and sliders to controll your solo performancess.


Korg has the technollogy both hardware and software available to do this all.... the hardware to make a system like this isn't that expensive anymore... quad core intell and lots of memmory 8 GB and the software is allready developed and only needs to be ported to the new hardware...

Korg can for once and for all create the dream machine at a reasonable cost...


But Korg does not want to do this, as they want to sell you new systems every 3 years...

WEll here is my solution mister Korg.... Hardware upgrades every 3 years...combined with the usuall software updates....

If you do this.... you will even have mister MS lionstrcas blushing

Korg has the technollogy and the potentiall

There are a lot of pedal inputs perhaps it can be assigned to one of them. AS a live keyboard using ARPS IM not sure unless the Drummer is on a click how any Arp would be in sync. As an OMB the Motif is easily replaced by the Tyros or 900. IN that regard the fills will step in on the proper beat in the measure.

Seems to me the board is deep enough to do anything one would need. I'm guessing few people other than Bartmans get deeper than 2/3s of capabilities.Most people get as far as they need then play in that sandbox.

I have never actually created sound sets from a waveform. I bought modules because they already had the sound sets I wanted. Sound designing is a reason others buy synths, Thats want they love and their reason for purchase.

One thing I am looking forward to is creating sequences onboard then sending them to the DAW without jumping through the tyros hoops as a Master Keyboard.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-26-2009).]

Dikki,
You have to be kidding...the OS on my PA2XPRO is absolutely superb. I have no idea where people get is about the OS. I have T2 and PA...the PA is much better, and more feature rich. The T2 is fine also.

IF you come from another MFG. AND you don't really care to really learn the PA features (theres a lot there) OR spend the time ...THEN you might not like it. Just like anything new.

The fills issue is blown WAY out of proportion...it is rarely any issue for me at all. Yes, more fills would be nice, and an impovement in some styles fill transitions would be nice. The new OS2.1 actually has a new parm that helps a lt. 'Cue Mode' Also...retrigger is set to yes by default and I sually change it to No.

The survey is to ask all arranger customers (not just Korg current owners) what they WANT/NEED in an arranger.

Will there be a PA3? or something else? Who knows...but it will contine big time...and I think all info collected in the survey will be carefully considered. Believe me the fill issue will be there. And so will the desire to have ALL samples in RAM not ROM (like Korg M3)

Korg has not ignored their customers at all.
I honestly believe the fill issue is one they would fix tommrrow if they could. I believe it is something that will be improved with the next PA with some architecture changes.

Ignoring your customers is when twice you are told on the Yamaha support line that you 'don't need that' when you ask about controlling some modules with MIDI. Total arragance! Were Yamaha...and we know what you need and don't need!

Wanna bet!

Lee S.

King, assigning an footpedal to control teh stopping and starting of arps is NOT one of them..Trust me, its an issue that has been flogged at the motifator forums.

Dennis

I'm right with you Jerry T !!
A good arranger module suitable for midi accordions ...seen nothing since the i40M

Giovanni

Depends on how good you are at timing

But yes it can only be triggered at the start of a bar, because the loop alwasy starts at measure 1 as you correctly said.

But otoh, why would you want a 4/4 loop over a bar to start on beat 2? You really need a 3 beat loop with a rest on the first beat?

AND did you know you CAN program your own arp, that has this rest on beat 1?
So then you trigger it to start at the beginning of the bar but the fill itself does not start until beat 2.

I also wrote ending arp loops, simple one shots on the first beat. Only becasue I got sick of fading out arps .

There was a program available for the ES series that allowed PC editing/creation of arps. Unfortunately the creator chose not to re-work it for the XS because of the complexity of the 4 simultaneous arps.

But that MAY have changed now as I have not re-visited the issue since I moved away from the XS. Another keybaord that was ranked in the "almost" category.

Dennis

Well then its a good thing Im not planning on lugging it around...LOL I want to use ARPS to construct original Styles from songs I sequenced and recorded year ago.
The Tyros fare is based on previously recorded songs and hard to adapt to original works. Diki mentioned this quite eloquantly in another thread and is correct.

Good luck in finding intro and ending arps then..They are some, but most need tweaking to work properly. Lots of fill arps though.

All songs with the exception of "Over the Rainbow" were done on a PA800. "Over the Rainbow" played on Tyros2
http://steveonpiano.com/Song%20Demos.htm

Sorry, Dennis, but I think you are kind of dodging the fill issue. To be honest, no, there really aren't a lot of fills in the MoXS, at least compared to normal loops. In an arranger they outnumber the main loops 7 to 4 (in a Roland), and the Intro/Endings outnumber the loops 2-1 (four of each).

But the main issue is the timing thing. Unlike an arranger, the fills HAVE to be triggered a bar in advance, or you lose sync. Not only from having to rely on your own timing to stay in meter (lots of potential for screw-ups there), but simply because of the fact that you not only have to drop the fill in wild sync, you then have to drop back into the main loop in wild sync. Every fill, TWO chances to screw up the timing. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying it is a LOT more difficult than the arranger's system.

But you are also missing one other important point. Maybe you NEVER trigger a fill unless you need the entire bar's fill, but most of us, I dare say, use fills at different points in the bar. Hit it on the 'one', get a full fill, hit it on the 'two', get a partial fill. Hit it on the 'three' get a pickup, hit it on the four, get an even smaller pickup, or maybe just the crash on the next bar. You cannot do this with the XS's system. Ever fill starts on the 'one'. Ask for it on the two or three, it is musically wrong. And out of sync, to boot.

Yamaha need to completely rethink this system for it to make any sense as a musical tool for anything other than hiphop and techno (which is always about full loops, on the whole). What they have now is a pale shadow of how well an arranger works. Admittedly, it wouldn't take much for Yamaha to change it, but we all know how resistant to change those guys can get. Best of luck getting a 76 out of them! (at least in an arranger!).

I also think those tiny buttons are ridiculously placed and sized for the job they are doing, especially as you can't trigger them from other sources. Roland's big pads are great on the Fantom's, although placed on the wrong side, IMO. Even for WS players, having them on the same side that your best playing hand is makes no sense...

Yamaha slowly creep towards arranger and WS integration, but they have a LONG way to go before the WS is a practical arranger.

Thanks for sharing Steve - good job. I use those styles on different songs

BTW, I absolutely love the Rainbow style on the T - wow........damn, I miss that beauty.

Diki, I completely agree with your last post, apart from the dodging fills issue bit. Which I wasn't, well not intentionally anway.

I was just pointing out that it CAN be done, not that it was easy. I did it on the Motif rack I had with a footpedal attached.

Although to be honest, I only ever had it set for 1 bar in advance as I was never that good in hitting the pedal at exactly the right time.
Because you are 100% correct in that if you miss, even by a gnats fanny hair, it goes out.

As you say, it's a real shame, because if Yamaha included only a BASIC arranger engine in the Motifs, they would truly be a "killer" keyboard.

Dennis

I don't think the Motif is intended to be used as an conventional playback arranger at all. The Arps are great for a jumping of point in a new song but intros and ending will have tp be recorded the old fashion way. Part by part. I view the Arps as Multi-pads so far. Salt and pepper but not the meat and potatoes....I hope they are more than that.

I like the arranger "type" features but I certainly don't want another arranger. I want a DAW integrated Work Station.
I love the AI of the Yamaha fills...but using a keyboard live that would be a terrible omission if it were not so. (The PA2x was sloppier in that regard if I remember correctly)

Although the lines are somewhat blurred with the XS and an Arrangers one can still see the sharp edges. Years ago in Cakewalk version one there was no linear sequencing (although you could have constructed a LONG Sone) It was all pattern based which is loop oriented. Thehn chained together into a song.

What I like about looping 8 bar patterns is trying out different parts on the fly until I find something I like for that A section or B section. I don't see where the T3 is as intuitive in that regard,since one cannot create patterns then chain them into a song...( I guess one can use the Registration banks to save patterns then press the buttons while recording a sequence in linear fashion......nah..the work flow is terrible.)

Stephen, thanks for posting the songs.
They sound very good. I didn't have a problem with the latin styles.
I really had to stretch to make it play much Country or even old time R'nRoll though.
It does sound better than the one I had.
I still wouldn't trade my lowly E50 for one though!
DonM

I have a G70 and I thought the number of fills is 6, not 7... where is the 7th one?

Or do you intend the "break mute" as a fill?

Boy, God sure made us with a set of different ears I spent 3 hours on that E60 last night ...........ughhh (so thin). You must be a freak of nature to make a E50 sound better than a PA

Although the Roland sound is not what I prefer to hear coming out of my speakers, I have tried the E-60 and E-50, and I can honestly say the sound was not "thin" to my ears.

Ian

OK, you got me...! Yes, strictly speaking, there are just the six. But most arrangers count their Break/Fill as a full fill (I don't usually) so I thought I'd pad the stats! Still, six full fills is a boatload better than two fills and a break fill (which is what is in most Korg styles).

Twice as many, I believe....

Or three times as many if we are discounting breaks and break/fills..!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-27-2009).]