FYI........Roland arranger fact

A fact that I think very few people know about Roland arrangers ..G and E series, can use up to 16 parts for styles...

I accidentally found this out while listening to very complexed styles I just received..

Now go check your other brands...I checked the manuals of Yamaha..it is stated that they use up to 8 parts...

Can someone check the Korgs for us...

Korg also uses up to 8 parts..

I believe there are 16 parts because you can bounce style tracks (just a guess)...and if that's the case, they will have to share the same EQ/effects, which may or may not be advantageous.

Personally, I find 8 parts as complex and full as I would need...especially since Yamaha uses two drum tracks as opposed to Roland's one...

I sometimes take out style parts to simplify, but I guess if you're only playing single note lines over the style, 16 parts might help fill things out better.

Ian

I have never heard a recording from Fran that has more than 3 or 4 instruments it in anyways...??

Ian, I checked ..the Rolands also have 8 tracks , but 16 parts...Are you saying for sure that Yamaha also uses 16 parts?

I just checked at random, my Korg and Yamaha styles...after checking more than 2 dozen styles...none used more than 8 parts...So I believe..it to be true..only Roland uses 16 parts...

If anyone finds this to be false..please let me know..just curious...also maybe that is why Roland styles just sound better to me...

Yamaha uses 8 style tracks...RHY1, RHY2, CHD1, CHD2, PAD, PHR1, PHR2.

They each have their own EQ, DSP effects, and filter, as well as volume and pan.

Also, Yamaha has the advantage of four programmable Multi Pads to add even more to an accompaniment.

If Roland's 8 style style tracks are expanded(?) to 16 by overdubbing, then the tracks would have to share EQ and effects, wouldn't they?

That may, or may not, be advantageous, as I said earlier.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-28-2008).]

Ian, on the G70 ..each of the 16 parts in a style have individual tone parameters including , cutoff,reso,vibrato parameters and ADS..It also has separate effects and Eq for each part.
Also individual drum instrument parameters within a drum kit...Comparing manuals it looks like Roland is much deeper in the style department over Korg and Yamaha..

Looks like it time for Diki to arrive and settle this disscusion

Maybe they are Fran, but I was never struck on Roland's styles....some of the Latin are good, as well as a few contemporary fusiony styles, but overall I was disappointed in the factory set....I guess you could improve them or get some good 3rd party styles...the Tyros styles were converted for the G70, I believe.

I had a G70 (Ver3) here for over a week and dissected it pretty thoroughly.

Nice instrument, but didn't meet my needs...too big and too heavy...no need of it, as I've said time and time again...weight does not always translate into durability or quality.

It did have a nice piano and, though I'm not overly fond of them, a good semi-weighted action.

It's good to see you so enthusiastic about your keyboard...I feel the same way about mine.

Ian

Ian, this post was only to show a newly found fact (new to me)..not to compare any keyboard to another...head to head..Just trying to understand benefits that came to light..

[quote by Fran]"Comparing manuals it looks like Roland is much deeper in the style department over Korg and Yamaha.."[end quote]

This isn't comparing?

Ian

only to the extent that I am trying to find how many style parts...you brought up the question of filters etc..

Bedtime here..chat later..

Are you sure they have 16 parts?

They sure don't sound like they do, at least to me...as I said, they didn't impress me all that much.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-28-2008).]

Hello Fran,
your 'parts' are called 'Division'. Normaly there are 18 of them: Intro 1-4, Variation 1-4, Ending 1-4, Fill Up 1-3, Fill Down 1-3. You can program 3 Modes per Division: major, minor and 7th.

Read Page 178 of your G70 OM:
The G-70 allows you to program 54 different patterns
per Style, some of which can be selected via
dedicated buttons (MAIN [1]~[4], etc.). Some Patterns
are selected on the basis of the chords you play in the
chord recognition area of the keyboard (major,
minor, seventh).

Greeting
Peter

Make sure you compare apples with apples, as all manufactures tend to call common features different names, which means it is easy to get confused about what you are comparing.

Bill

peter,
i believe fran is talking about more than one sound per track, in different variations. the same track, ex. bass, can contain fretless on intro1, wet on intro2, pick on intro3, etc. but also synth on var1, acoustic on var2, and so on.
that indeed might be 18 sounds to start with, but it could go up to 3x18 as you described, still, i am not so sure. i never tried.
that is more than enough anyway.

too bad roland does not allaw two drum tracks... ;(

BUZZER SOUNDS Thank you all for playing 'Guess the spec' Marlene, tell our runners-up what they have won... (contestants walk dejectedly off stage to an SMF that might or might NOT have been played by Fran)

Roland's can have 16 (or more) sounds per style, as shown in the Style Makeup Tools mixer pages (there are two or more pages, depending on whether the style has more than eight sounds, of eight tracks each linked to the sliders). These adjustments are stored in the style itself.

BUT... there are eight PARTS per style, as linked to the sliders on the first Style fader part, and volume only adjustments to these are stored in the registration (so you can mute some Parts on some registrations, and let them play in others). There are also Solo and Mute buttons here, for easy Part, well you get it!

So... A Part can have two or more sounds, each with a Tone that can be edited differently. BUT, on a Part, they can't sound simultaneously. Eight is all that can sound simultaneously. The page after page of different sounds comes about from the fact that each Division of the style (Variations, Fills, Intros and Endings) can have different Tones for each Part.

So... BUZZER SOUNDS AGAIN

NOBODY won this weeks contest. Prizes roll around until next week's show!

Special 'booby prize' also goes out to Rolman, for confusing a style's Divisions (the Intros, Variations, etc.) with the Parts they play

Thanks for playing 'Guess the Spec'... See you next week!

Right, Adi
additional you may change the Tone within
a Pattern. Try it using the 'Micro Edit' of your E60.
Greetings
Peter

so, to conclude...
how many sounds/tones inside the parts, inside the tracks, inside the division, inside the style can a roland style have?
a total of....?

And, in conclusion ladies and gentleman the point of this post was...... Hmmmmm! It must be snowing somewhere. Yes, it's snowing in Pennsylvania, and if you look closely you will see a name written in the snow.

Gotta' go to work,

Gary

Who really cares?

ah, before i forget... not simultaneously!

I calculated it once more:
Let us have a look at what happen if we play e.g. variation=4, chord=Maj. That's what Roland call a Division or Pattern. A Pattern can contain up to 8 Midi sequences, simultaneous played on 8 different tracks.
Each Midi sequence contains Bank Selects and a program change. So every Pattern can play 8 different tones. There are up to 54 Pattern, so up to 432 is the number of tones within one style if no further program changes occour. But this is far, far away from the reality. So this discussion is useless, I think. Important is the great flexibility of Rolands Style- Composer, Converter.
Greetings
Peter

What good is it how many parts are being used if you don't find the styles useful, or don't like the sound of the arranger?

The G70 seems to be an acquired taste, or there would be many more owners posting about it(and many more owners), here, or on other forums...it seems to have a scant following, although most aren't as fanatical as Fran...thankfully.

Sure, the sound is more "raw" but not everyone likes steak tartare...

Ian

The G70 & E60 sound wonderful & the styles are really good & to me less repetitive then Yamaha...16 bar loops & 7th lead in make them more interesting plus 4 Intro/Endings one that you can create yourself playing which is Cool,....but not out of the box.....with some dedicated time & the fantastic Makeup tools you can do wonders to make these KB's sound great beyond what other arrangers can provide & produce....believe me I Know
btw did I mention SMF markers & a song list that Saves Transpose unlike the Yamaha MFD also & a USB to PC that Works

.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-29-2008).]

To each their own, Donny, we all know what we want to hear come out of speakers...I just don't like the Roland sound...just like Yamaha, or Korg...it will not suit everyone.

Ian

Ian its more then sounds & styles alone to a pro navigation & editing tools you can use in live player is essential & to me Yamaha doesn't have them & judging by the latest models they won't address players needs at all like 76 keys etc .......they seem to ignore them & keep making very good Home style keyboards....but that doesn't make it right. Pros have special needs.

Can Ian and Fran agree on anything?

Does it matter how many parts a kb will play if you are cutting out all the 'fluff' and using mostly bass, drums, and guitar ?!? ...
t.

Yes, cass, ... they agree to ARGUE !!! ...

How are YOU doing, my friend?
t.

To me it is the sound...if it doesn't please me, then I don't want it...the Roland sound doesn't appeal to me as my "main" sound...if the GW8 was better designed, I'd have one of them as an alternate source of voices and styles, but it's far from what I'd want, even at $895.

Your needs are being met by the E-60...that's cool.

Mine are met by the S900...even cooler.

At least we don't have to lug around a G70.

Ian

Of course not, Cassp...where would be the fun in that?

I hope you're doing well, my friend...always good to see you posting.

Ian

Ian is taller than I...

I think the bottom line is that the Roland's are flexible enough, should you actually need such a dense style.

I agree that bass and drums and maybe a guitar rhythm should be sufficient in most cases, but if you are doing bigband, or densely textured electronica, whatever, sometimes you DO need a lot of Tones, especially to help different Variations actually SOUND different.

But quoting those specs is a slippery slope, as the manufacturers obscure the details in 'marketspeak' and the manuals are more confusing than Finnegan's Wake

Bottom line is that, if you 'get' the Roland sound and approach, it doesn't matter how many Tones can be used in a style (it rarely gets into those elevated numbers, thank God!), and if you don't, it wouldn't matter if there were unlimited sounds per style!

To each, his own.

To all who have supported me thru my illness- THANK YOU. The cardiologist and family doctor agree that I appear to be on the right track to a full recovery. Meds will need to be monitored and tweaked occasionally, but the heart is now beating stronger and slower. And with the help of my defibulator/pacemaker I feel confident that I will not just keel over. Thanks for all your prayers and good wishes. I hope to be back to my church job in a few weeks. As for OMB and commercial music, well that will have to wait, but I'm still very interested in and will stay connected with SZ.

Honestly, I couldn't tell you too much about features and specs of most of my numerous arrangers. I just bought 'em cuz I liked 'em.

Just for the records....

I own a G70 and a Tyros 2 and I love both of them as each one has advantages in some departments over the other (I like the PA2X and SD1 sound too but wife will never allow me to have more keyboards at home than I already have).

But...

If I had to choose only one to keep....G70 would be the one.

Keep playing and enjoy your life as it is sooooooooo short for the amount of music available to listening and playing....

Carlos

I'd be happy to own both myself, especially if the damn manufacturers put their heads together and standardized the operational MIDI codes (Variation changes, Intro and Ending commands, Break/Fill codes, etc.) so you could link them and use the best of each of them at what they ARE best at.

The drums of the G70
The basses and guitars of the Tyros
The piano and Hammond of the G70
The action of the G70
The SA sounds of the Tyros
The multipads of the Tyros
The sequencer of the G70
The synth sounds of the G70 (and Tyros!)

Etc., etc..

What an amazing sound that would be!

Too bad neither company thinks that sales would go UP if they made it so they WOULD talk to each other. I guess they simply reflect many here at SZ... Complacently happy with what they already do, and unwilling to put in any work to make an effort to understand that ALL arrangers have their strong points and weak.

Strange that the manufacturers don't remember the 80's, when the synth explosion occurred, PRECISELY because finally it was possible to get them to all talk the same language to each other. They all sure made a boatload of money back then...