Why NO style GENERATION tools in Arranger Keyboards?

One of my long standing wishes with arranger keyboards is an on board style generation tool. Not a style copy and modify tool, but an on-board tool similar to the Korg Karma algorithms that would actually allow you to built a style based on a core starting genre or a beat and tweak the hell out of it until you have a really cool style; similar to Band in a box. You could change parameters like 4/4, 2/4, 3/4 tempo, swing, shuffle, groove, bass lines, beat displacement, accompaniment, etc. until you achieved a suitable style and then save that style to your user area. Then perhaps create more styles based on the new style you just created and so on and so forth.

I think this would revolutionize the AK market. Why the heck haven't they come up with this as yet???


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Al Giordano
Visit us at ARRANGER WORLD! http://www.arrangerworld.com

Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

Al,
the answer could be that -like you wrote- it's much easier to do the same thing with programs like BIAB, and then import the result as a style into the keyboard of your choice.
My experience is that the best styles are those converted from song-specific midifiles or modelled after popular songs, so the bottom line to me is that all I really need are great midifiles and a program like Styleworks 2000, to convert them into styles; the whole process takes less than fifteen minutes per style.

Speaking of song-specific styles, did anyone notice that the Tyros Afrocuban style is "inspired" by the song "At the Mambo Inn", as recorded by George Benson and McCoy Tyner in the album "Tenderly"? Intro 3 is actually a carbon copy of the original; I wonder if Yamaha paid any royalties...



[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 10-27-2008).]

i believe a fisrt step toward that was roland's morphing function, unfortunatelly they decided to drop it.
i think this would be indeed revolutionary, and it could be done, since karma already has it, but i have to use my old theory why that does not happen: the manufacturers prefer to keep the market well defined at this time, between synth/workstation and arranger division.
at one point in time, i am sure we'll see this and other great features, but right now they can live quite alright without implementing them. ;( maybe they would like to keep such a hybrid arranger/synth keyboard as the ULTIMATE instrument, which they do not want to release yet. eventough i believe they could.

dreamer, i posted after you... really, having a "style generator" is much more than that; you could generate more or less random tracks that could sound from unexpected to extraordinary. that would fit new dance/electrica styles so well.
but arranger market is just not meant for that...

[This message has been edited by adimatis (edited 10-27-2008).]

I guess I must have missed something here. There is an onboard program in all Yamaha arrangers since the PSR-2000 called Style Creator. Yes, you modify a style using it, or just use the onboard drum kits, voices, etc.. and create your own style from scratch. It's not difficult, but it does take a bit of timing, chops and skill to create a good style. To create an outstanding style you need to be creative, skilled and have lots of free time to work on the style.

Gary

gary, it is something different:



i would love to see a feature like this.

mixing together different parts of different styles only brings so much benefit, but this one would bring completely new and original (read unexpected) styles.

I think a more radical approach is needed. Namely, the combination of styles -- such as the many good ones that currently exist -- with Karma-type functions that will modify the styles in real time. This should be able to be either under user control or take place automatically. That is, the style itself should contain the parameters that should be modified by the Karma like operators. I think this will revolutionize the arranger concept and market. It is interesting that the current arrangers do not even randomize the patterns within a style, but keep repeating the same patterns. Lowrey organs, since the MX1 and I believe even now, have style patterns that have several possible segments. The organ randomly chooses among the segments so that the style is never truly repetitive. I don't understand why Yamaha and the others don't do at least this. But as I said before, the combination of styles and Karma built into the current styles would make a big difference.

Sam

Dreamer I regularly play "Mambo Inn"and when I had my Tyros2 I used the Afro Cuban style, I also liked using it for the tune "St. Thomas"

Has anyone ever used a beat box to generate beats or loops? There are quite a few of them on the market. These are more than just drum machines, they are creative pieces of hardware that allow you to start with a simple BASS DRUM beat, then add the Snare, the cymbal/high hat, then the Bass, and other synth sounds. This is how most techno and DJ music is built today.

I'm sure most keyboard manufacturers have 3-4 models that they currently sell.

Something like this: http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=766

Motif
6000 phrases, 4 Arps. 88 weighted. $3200


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-27-2008).]

Motif - 6000 phrases, 4 arps...NOT ONE intro or ending arp!!

If Yamaha provided just a handful of both, it would be one "smokin'" keyboard.

Dennis

I just don't understand why Yamaha and other don't add those phrases and arps into the arranger? I guess this would be too difficult of a technology for average home users to grasp??

Theoretically you could connect a Motif midi out to a Tyros midi in and record the arps as multipads. When I have time I will try to do this and see how it works.

Anybody tried the Style Composer in the Roland's...

About as easy as it can get to create styles, combine styles, modify styles. Add the Makeup Tools as finishing polish, you are done!

And style 'morphing' may be gone into the dustbin of great Roland features cruelly dropped, but the 'Cover Tools' function is surprisingly powerful, and can turn a style into something unrecognizable...

And then THAT can be combined with parts from other styles, similarly mangled... and once again, the finishing polish applied with the Makeup Tools header editing.

But, of course, you've actually got to TRY these features in the store before you buy it to have a clue how powerful they are. And most only spend an hour or two, running through the styles and OTS's. It's no wonder we get posts like this.

Mind you, there's ONE thing from olden days I'd LOVE to see a return of... simple 8th beat and 16th beat styles, with a 'swing' parameter you can adjust in realtime.

Man, I'd KILL for that!

diki, i tought the ONE thing from old times you'd kill for is the chord sequencer...

i am sure you realize that working with roland's make-up and cover is only a workaround for this... the idea of introducing arps and beat generators in an arranger it seems to be just too much for now. the pads in yamaha and korg add a little bit of that, but obviosly we're not anywhere near karma...

of course roland's tools are great for mixing and changing and tweaking the existing patterns. but they do not create new ones...

Create 12 intros, 12 endings, 12 variations and 18 fills, wherever they originate from. Take the Roland 'Composer, Converter and Make Up Tools' and then you'll get the best possible style. But Roland didn't know it themselves. That's the reason they made a bad business. (poor publicity)
Greeting
Peter



[This message has been edited by Rolman (edited 10-28-2008).]

Hi Al,
quite an intersting thought. You'd also need the ability to easily test the style part that you're working on with a song.
Technics used to have a style creator tool
( not random though) where for the drum tracks you'd scroll thru till you found the bass drum pattern you liked, then you added the snares etc etc. Then scroll thru a number of bass patterns, guitar patterns etc etc
Only problem was, when you wanted to try the pattern with a song , you had to save, leave the creation area to test it.. But from memory, I don't think you could then go back and edit the pattern further, in the same manner as it had been created ie by scrolling thru & picking different drum beats or choosing a different guitar pattern etc.

I'm sort of trying to do something similar by creating user pads.
Biab throws out dozens of different combinations ( variations). I've mainly been playing around with a couple of the newer jazz piano styles. Some of the stuff works, other times the pattern sounds too busy. Hard to tell whether the pattern is going to work with a particular song or not.
Problem is, again there's no way of testing.
If I type in the chord progression for the song in BIAB, to hear if the style will work, I won't get the same set of phrases when I just type in the Cmaj chord required to create the midifile , from which I create the korg style.

Think I may have solved my problem by creating pads for some of the instruments. Wouldn't bother with BIAB string pads, most are awful. Some of the drum patterns are fairly ordinary too. Bass lines are interesting , so are the jazz piano phrases.
Thinking of a combination of Korg & BIAB tracks. Use the Korg drums if possible, definately Korg strings.
My method of testing involves Jos's Busker software ie type in chord progression, I even type in a single melody line.
The software triggers the korg style, changes the chords, even plays the melody.
I just have to sit back , listen & choose the phrases I want to use in the style.
The pad, when I find the correct one is easily copied into the style & becomes part of the style.
Personally I find it too diffcult to concentrate on playing chords & melody , while trying to put a style together.
best wishes
Rikki


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