Just curious---

I know that a lot of you incorporate a lot of piano and organ (solo and accompaniment) in your work. My question is; when using something other than a organ for organ parts, do you use an expression pedal? Along those lines, do you disable velocity? I know that 'rock' organ tends to be 'balls-to-the-wall' from start to finish so the expression pedal is just extra weight to carry , but for jazz, R&B, Pop, Gospel, etc., do you use an expression pedal with your WS or Arranger KB? Same with piano. Do you take along a sustain pedal? I've always felt that one of the reasons that synth organ doesn't sound convincing to me is the lack of use of an expression pedal. Am I right? Or do you feel that the subtleties provided by these accessories gets lost in the cacophony of arranger play?

chas

I'm never without both, although I do quite a bit of work without hooking up the expression pedal. Unless I do a lot of foreground organ (mostly live band work), I'll generally do without the expression pedal in arranger play...

I wish I didn't have to, but I am already very busy with my feet running the arranger's sustain pedals (I always have separate UPR and LWR sustains) and doing all the Variation and Fill work that bouncing back and forth doesn't work well for me.

Not to mention I do quite a few gigs standing (I have always preferred doing this, despite my knees getting older!), and that's FAR to much tap dancing! BTW, that 'cacophony' only comes out when folk are too lazy to turn some of the Parts off and PLAY for themselves! You get in an over-busy live band, you have the same problem!

But recording, or live band work (where I don't have to run the arranger), I ALWAYS use one...

Main Entry:
ca·coph·o·ny
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural ca·coph·o·nies
Date:
circa 1656

: harsh or discordant sound : dissonance 2; specifically : harshness in the sound of words or phrases

Just because the sound is coming from an arranger doesn't mean there is a "cacophony" of sound ...
t.

Chas, I always use the expression pedal [EV5) with the G70..I use it for organ [the VK engine has velocity off], as well as "color" sounds like brass, strings etc..The pedal adds these tones to my main tones[mostly piano]..that are not effected by the EV5..

Chas,

I use both a sustain and a volume pedal on my S900...although I feel the sustain pedal is more important and always carry a spare.

"Riding" the expression pedal always adds so much to organ...velocity sensitivity actually feels(and sometimes sounds) unnatural to me, although I can get by without the pedal if necessary as the organ sound on the S900 fades away when using the sustain.

For solo piano...the sustain is a must...for solo organ (or in a combo) the expression/volume pedal is a must.

Ian

Interesting...when I played my PortaB only and kicked pedals, I had my foot on the expression/volume pedal at all times. Now I don't with an arranger - hmmmmm....maybe I should give it a try. Seems a bit much though since I don't play tons of organ patches anymore.

Trouble is, it's hard to kick pedals, ride a volume pedal, and use a sustain pedal or two at the same time!

I don't like hitting buttons while I play (to busy doing LH bass to spare the time!), so one foot gets my arranger control, the other sustain.

Where can I get that third foot? I could really use it

I remember my old Electone D-85 had two switches on either side of the swell pedal...you could assign bend, fill or sustain to either...plus a few other functions.

Is there anything like that available as a stand alone pedal?

That would be cool.

Ian

I remember using those, Ian. Had an Electone thirty years ago (or more!). It was OK for fill, or Leslie control (what I used it for, as well as a bender), but I wouldn't want to have to use that motion for sustain for any length of time.

It wouldn't take much to make something like this... a switch is a switch, as far as the arranger is concerned.

All the Wersi & Bohm Expression Pedals have the switches, and have done for years.
However the one thing you have forgotten about is the Knee Lever that used to be fitted to Yamaha & Kawai Organs/Electones which would give you the 3rd foot.
Enjoy Life, Play a Wersi

Bill

Want a third foot Diki? No problem ! Just contact Rolf Harris. He's always got a spare.

This might sound weird to most of you traditionalists but I rarely use any kind of pedals when I play arranger KB.....I will use a sustain when I'm doing a Piano type cocktail hour etc. Other wise I only use one pedal for VH on/off....I have developed a lightning fast navigational style that is far superior & more importantly FASTER SWITCHING of buttons then any pedal could ever do in real time using my fingers vs my feet. This "WORKS FOR ME" I dont intend anyone else to play the same nor would I try top talk anyone else into it. To me its all in the playing technique....using less is the way I do it & its very successful......so I cant argue with what works "FOR ME"

When playing live I find I use a sustain pedal very little, but now that I keep it plugged in all the time I find I am using it more often - probably a good idea to have it there all the time.

I haven't used an expression pedal since i started playing an arranger because I found that I was using the pedal too much, ala organ. That works well for me now - no expression/volume pedal. But since I got my XK-1 I have bought a FC-5 (??) pedal and use it for the organ only. That is the only way to play organ - with your foot on the pedal. I want to experiment with using the expression pedal on the arranger, but haven't yet. Hope this makes sense.

WARNING: PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!

The above was performed by a trained professional...DO NOT ATTEMPT!

Thank you Ian......
for understanding what works FOR ME

"The Hand is Quicker then the Foot"

But the 'Foot-in-mouth' is quicker than both .

Just funnin'.

Actually Donny, I was only referring to expression pedal for organ and sustain pedal for piano. I can see button vs foot pedal being a matter of personal preference for other functions.

Tony, darn, you got me. I figured that would sneak right by my usual 'fan club' . I wasn't arranger-bashing, I was just testing to see if you were awake .

chas

chas ... I may be old, but I haven't started taking daytime naps yet ...
t.

Chas, with the MS-60 and the Electro, I use a stereo expression pedal, with both units plugged in. I use a 13 note Ketron pedalboard and the sustain is assigned to one of those pedals. In a duo or trio situation, I always use an expression pedal on the C-1.

You're right. An expression pedal is essential to a B-3 type sound.

That's part of the process for some of us.

Russ

Chas ....I hear you......years ago with my Hammonds, Farfisa, Vox Continental, etc, etc, I always used a Vol pedal (MORLEY)
http://www.morleypedals.com/volume.html

for straight organ in bands but with arrangers I pretty much have all levels set Accmp/Leads so no need to carry anymore gear.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-30-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-30-2008).]

And just because it's an arranger doesn't mean there is NOT!

You leave ALL those parts ON during a busy style, playing busy changes, and it can be a mess!

Trevor... Rolf Harris? Wow, I haven't heard that name in a while! I did back up for him one time at a Holiday Camp gig. Nice guy... I though he was a bit kinky with that song about marsupial bondage, though

Donny, were you saying that you DON'T use a sustain pedal for anything OTHER than cocktail piano? How can you play any kind of Rhodes or Wurli or Ac. Piano without one?

And lastly, I encourage those that have the ability to use SOSTENUTO, rather than sustain from a pedal, to take a good look at it... It basically ONLY holds what you are playing WHEN YOU PRESS THE PEDAL, but not anything else. So for brass, strings organ and many non-piano sounds, it makes a FAR better choice, allowing you to 'hold' a few notes, and still play around them without 'smear' or unnatural build-up. High 'floaters', low 'pedal tones', middle 'half-chords' that you dance around, there are some amazing things you can do with sostenuto... (don't forget, you can use sustain at the same time as sostenuto, for a combination of BOTH types).

Give it a try, sometime...

Diki.... I mostly use TWO BOSS FS5U pedals when I need them that you can latch together via a channel on the side if more then one is needed....
http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=57


Built like a tank......I only use what I need for the job or for recording backing tracks. It's all about HOW YOU PLAY, there are KB playing & fingering techniques that can imitate using sustain pedals. They are just more tools that players have to choose if they need them or not, I have seen too many players over abuse and drown themselves out & their music in a sea of sustain abusing the pedal as they almost ride it throughout the song....
nothing is set in stone.

Absolutely. Sustain is a terrible thing to abuse, and I HAVE struggled through the odd gig when my sustain conked out on me, and survived, but I noticed the difference on piano and Rhodes parts was excruciating, despite my best efforts at legato. That, and the ability to hold something while you do a quick move to the screen or buttons (I don't run EVERYTHING with my feet ), makes the sustain an essential part of my performing.

Just about ANYTHING can be abused, as well as used well... I don't allow myself to worry if someone ELSE overuses it, though. All that matters is that I don't..!

I guess my main thing is that I don't WANT to change my technique if I don't HAVE to. I know there are workarounds for most things, but after spending most of my life learning how to play pretty much like anything you hear on the radio, I don't want to have to change that to accommodate a MACHINE. I feel the machine should accommodate ME!

Diki ... I didn't say the possibility doesn't exist ...
Of course leaving ALL parts ON can be too much, depending on the style, changes, kb, etc.

t.