ZUKI How do you like the Roland G70?

Looking forward to your opinions compared to the Sd5?

Looking forward to the G70. I love Roland as you know. In fact, I hung on to the VA a long time, hoping to use live, but it was not suited for fast play. This looks like it might be Should be tons of fun - that's what it's all about anyway.

zuki

Go for it ....take your time, think out of teh Yamaha box
if you need any help just shout ok?

Zuki,

You are doing very well, Jim...the G70 is a nice piece of work(although a tad heavy IMO) and I'm sure you'll love the styles (the Latin and Fusion are terrific) and the keyboard feel...not to mention the great piano sound and added keyboard length.

Hopefully it won't be too much of a challenge to transport to the many gigs you do, but I'm sure you have prepared yourself for that little aspect.

Have fun, and enjoy your new acquisition.

Ian

Thanks fellows.

Ian, how's the recovery doing?

zuki

Thanks for asking, Jim...slow but sure...I have to wtch I don't overdo things...still, I am playing everyday, something I really missed while in hospital.

Ian

Zuki......welllll?

(My) scale:

S900 - 9
PA800 - 7
G70 - 4
SD-5 - 1

See for sale items.

zuki

zuki,
as i said it before, i am greatly astonished how easy you get from great excitement to great disapointment with all of these keyboards.
there is NO WAY you can honestly give 4/10 for G70 after what, two days?
with all the respect, but this does not really benefit anyone. meaning users, especially new users that are looking for information.

i dont question your taste, but i must doubt your objectivity when testing a new keyboard. the fact you are able to change and try new things is perfectly ok, but, if you allow me to give this piece of advice, spend more time with it before you decide it's really stinks... it's quite confusing when today your so happy with it, and next time when i check the forum i find out you sold that keyboard alreay!
ok, goodluck with next one. or with s900.

Zuki
wow that was you fastest turnaround yet!

Please tell us what you liked & didn't like with the G70 arranger was it the weight, the OS, great keyfeel or?..........
or did you just trade to sell?

Zuki,

Certainly the G70 will be easier to sell than the SD-5.

My guess for the G70 sale...the weight and OS.

If you traded just to sell, that was a wise move...Captain Russ was luckily there to give you the opportunity.

Maybe Fran or Diki would want a backup? Doesn't seem to be another G-series on the horizon...or Roland is just being very tight lipped and is going to launch a real doozie.

I found the Tyros2 a little more difficult to gig with than the S900...built in speakers are handy.

Good luck with it all.

Ian

Let's hope so Donny...Tyros3 launching in September...PA2XPro already out...competition always improves the breed.

Ian

Excactly..............

Right Now a Big wait & see attitude is all I'm willing to do at this point.....
I'm content at the moment with the gear I'm performing with ....using some work-arounds is tolerable at this stage.

Zuki....can you elaborate a bit on how you've arrived at these ratings on each....no offense but you tried the G70 for about a minute? The G70 is a deep unit & can do anything & everything very well... I really dont know how many people would agree with your assessments judging by the above rating list....but when something isn't right for you moving on quickly could be the best thing.....discussing ones experiences always helps others make other potential buyers richer in information to decide.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-01-2008).]

Another victim of ADD arranger purchasing....

I guess one has to ask the question... If you already own a '9', why waste all this time and money looking for a '10'?

Jim, so sorry things didn't work out for you. See the above post. I'll be glad to reverse the trade, but I believe the G-70 will be a lot easier to sell. Man I hope I like the SD-5.

Let me know!

Russ

WOW!!!!

This is like the Show ......

"Lets Make A Deal" !!!

Something NEW better come out soon before everyone goes nuts buyin & rebuyin & Wheelin & Dealin.... !!

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-01-2008).]

Russ,

No problem. I think I'll never be satisfied with anything but Yamaha. But I'm going to play it at the party in my house tonight and check it out better.

I do have a buyer that wants me to ship to Australia. Does your company do that?

Regards,
zuki

Pretty bold comment

How would one know if he is missing a '10' by not trying new things?

You don't know the circumstances behind my inquiries, but I can assure you, it's all for the betterment of my situation, despite your and others' bewilderment

zuki

Zuki take some pics & videos of the party performance for us

Zuki, send me some of your money. It's clear to me that you've got too much of it .

chas

Let's face it, if the G70 WERE a '10', there'd be more than me and Fran still using them.

The G70's shortcomings are WELL documented, both here and at Roland-arranger.com, and enough people have bought them and dropped them for you to be able to infer that they are no Yamaha beater for the general user. The G70 is about SOUND, and pretty much sound alone.

I use as little of the arranger as I possibly can, and play most everything if at all possible. I want to wow my audience with what I'M doing, not the arranger. So the sound is the main thing. But anyone doing an arranger (not SMF) based show that is used to the ease that Yamaha make this is going to have a hard time on a G70.

I believe it is the best keyboard (not just arranger) for general use for a true PLAYER, but not the best choice for the OMB, LH chord, RH solos type of player. Ease of use is that player's mantra. The PLAYER is generally only concerned with the sound... I can play round most OS shortcomings. But when the sound isn't anywhere near as important as MFD's and familiar navigation and the support that all those arranger parts give you, it's just a different set of priorities to me. The sound, the sound, the sound. The rest is just fluff. But that's just me.

But don't say we didn't warn you, Zuki (and you haven't! )...

Look, you rarely see a Yamaha long time user move to Roland. And you rarely see Roland guys do the opposite. Both companies have radically different ideas about what an arranger player needs, what type of sound he'll be happy with, and how to lay out the overall 'flow' of the OS. It's like English and Japanese. One is written with letters, the other with pictograms, one written left to right horizontally, the other right to left vertically, and both have virtually no words in common. But they both do exactly the same thing. Convey information to the reader or speaker.

Well, that's Roland and Yamaha in a nutshell.

I realize that the G70 acquisition was just so that you have something easier to sell than the Ketron, but in all fairness, I'd have held on to it just a little longer, and investigated the OS a little deeper. NOBODY can play something for as little time as you have, and make an INFORMED decision. First impressions are not always the most accurate. That's kind of like me playing the S900 for a half a day, and telling you it is utter rubbish!

YOU know it isn't... but only because you have spent a lot more than a few hours on one. Anyway, no big wup, play what you want to. Familiarity trumps sound for most players.

But I keep asking myself... Is anyone EVER going to learn from this arranger roulette that's been going on lately? DON'T BUY AN ARRANGER SIGHT UNSEEN.

Or maybe you'd be interested in this bridge I have for sale... Great views of Manhattan and Brooklyn. One careful owner. What have you got to lose?

I agree with most of what you said except the above. You're dead wrong on that statement - please don't make me out to be that way. I had many inquiries on the Ketron, believe me.

Every board I anticipate, I do with intentions of it being really good. I was overly excited awaiting its home.

I won't mention what I don't like about the G70 because it seems too painful for some people.

Let's just say I at least try different things until I exhaust all avenues. Then I'm comfortable with my final decision.

Look, I never tried the PA800 / SD / G70 and had my chance at a reasonable cost. Is that a sin? Shake it all down and I can rest knowing that the Yamaha (what I've been playing with all along - just like you and the 70) cannot be beat for me.

What's wrong with that? You voice your opinions all the time, so it's free game..

Remember - I am unqualified as a professional reviewer. I carefully offer a disclaimer when I voice my opinion.

zuki

zuki

Oh, no problem at all with what you have done. That's entirely your choice. I guess I'm just more old school - You know, where you went down to a store, tried a keyboard for as long as they'd let you play it. Leave. Come back a few days later, try it again, see if I still got the same impression, try a few other things out on it. Leave. Coma back a few MORE days later, and play it again, by which time I'm 'reasonably' sure that I either GOT to have it, or it's not for me.

THEN, I buy it.

Personally, I think it's a great marketing tool by the manufacturers and the stores, to refuse to actually STOCK any of these things, so the only way to find out if they are any good is to BUY one! Sight unseen! Brilliant! (for the stores!)

But by doing things this way, we are only playing into their hands. I refuse to buy anything sight unseen... If they can't be bothered to stock them, I can't be bothered to buy them.

And, as Donny keeps pointing out, it's not going to make any difference to my earnings to hold on to my old gear. I'm already doing quite nicely, and a new arranger won't make much of a difference.... Only to me.

But at least going through this process, Zuki, will probably have sharpened your awareness about WHAT, in an arranger, you DO feel is the main things it MUST have. That should at least minimize your chances of making a hasty purchasing decision in the future

Maybe we need to be a bit more upfront when we buy new things just to try them out. Someone's announcement that they just bought a ModelX arranger is usually taken at face value. They decided to BUY it. That usually implies they want it. But nowadays, with as hard as they make it to even find one to audition, perhaps we need to announce that we are 'AUDITIONING' a new arranger. That way, the users of said gear don't get as confused when you drop something faster than a hot potato! Truth is, you NEVER 'bought' it. You just rented it for a few days to try out!

But even so, kudos to the manufacturers and their dealers, for getting us to start PAYING for something we used to get for free...

Greedy SOB's...

With respect to Zuki, its up to him how he spends his money. He seems like s fairly astute businessman. The following comments are not aimed at anyone in particular but i understand i will still probably get some flack for say them.

Buying instruments and selling them a wek later is the right of the purchaser but in terms of the forum and how newbies who perhaps dont know the characters on this forum might perceive things, this constant swapping of keyboards every five minutes does no good to the credibility of the forum.

I dont care who you are, there is no way after a week that you can give a qualified opinion about what a mid to top of the range instrument is capable of or not. These are not casio toys. They are mid to top of the range very sophisticated keyboards and sometimes i just bite my tongue at some of the very trite comments that i have heard about an instruments capabilities that a 'user' has made about their brand new purchase.

It has discouraged me from assisting some members with thier queries because just as i type up a page or two of detailed information to help them over the initial learning curve of the instrument , they are selling it !! I wont waste my time like that again and thats a shame.

I simply wont waste my time helpng individuals with their queries if they cant be bothered to crack the manual and dig into the instrument before they have made up their mind that they are moving on to greener grass that in fact is no more green than the stuff they ate before.

Like i said this was not aimed at anyone in particular.

Spalding

It is understandable that you take this position, and it certainly would be a loss to the forum should you stop offering your help. Hopefully, we will not see that much of what you describe.
Bernie

I think there's a lot of judging of people's decisions going on here, and they all seem to be based on our own personal criteria. Why on earth does Zuki have to conform to someone else's type of behavior when he's spending his own money? First of all, there are many factors that account for the frequent buying and selling of (especially) arranger-type keyboards. We all know what they are.

1. The general unavailability of arranger keyboards in local stores for auditioning.

2. The very nature of arrangers means that the music produced by them is going to get boring (stale, repetitive, predictable, uninspiring, etc.) in a very short period of time, especially when playing the same venues a lot.

3. Musicians are fickle by nature (why do guitar players have to have so many guitars?).

4. The grass is always greener.........

I also don't buy the argument that a working pro can't tell in a week that a board isn't right for them. Frankly, I think they have a pretty good idea in about an hour. Note, I said 'working pro'. That implies that they already have a working knowledge of the way arrangers work, several good frames of reference via prior arranger ownership, are able to zero in on (and evaluate) the specific types of styles that they will be using 'on the gig', and how intuitive the board is for real-time navigation (small learning curve). I believe Don when he says he can accomplish this in a week. So can I, given full-time access to the board. Why? Because I (and probably Don and Zuki and Capt Russ, and Donny) don't really give a darn what the board IS CAPABLE OF, only "what can it do for me right now? (for the type of music that I play)". I don't think most working pro's want to feel compelled to be a member of the geek squad to get the required utility out of a new board. Of course this doesn't apply to everybody, but we shouldn't be so judgemental about those that it does apply to. To say that you're not going to help on the board anymore because someone whom you supplied information to, sold there board to quickly, is....well....???

Another thing, everything about a TOTL arranger is subjective. I, personally, would never buy an arranger based on it's Ballroom styles. Simply because I'd never use them and consequently, don't really care if they're good or bad. With all due respect to DonM, Russ, AJ, and others who like the Ketron sound, I couldn't find a single style on the SD5 that I liked; not because they weren't good (subjective), but because the overall sound of the keyboard was very "European" to me, you know, kind of "Schlagerish". Not bad, just not what I'm into. I can understand Zuki, looking for something 'new', immediately rejecting it, especially if he were looking for something "Yamaha-ish" but better.

Me, I relish the flurry of buying and selling activity. You never know when you might be able to pick up a bargain. Long live free enterprise.

chas

AMEN! I totally Agree!

------------------
God Bless,
Mikey

www.mikeymaestro.com
www.balloonanimal.com
www.1000colorcards.com

Chas -

Wow! My sentiments too A sure way to get popular here is to buy and sell keyboards and simply answer questions on why you did so

zuki

Good post, Chas...your points are right on.

Ian

Chas very well said!!

So Zuki.....how did the G70 do at your party ;ast night....you did play it ?

Spalding and chas both have good points.

I guess each of us have a natural tendency to want to welcome a new member to 'our gang', those that choose and appreciate whatever piece of kit WE personally chose, and the tendency to prematurely announce a 'purchase' when in truth it's just an 'audition' gets us on this roller-coaster of emotion.

It's all anticipation at first, the unconcealed glee that something new is on the way. Then the happy announcement 'It's arrived!'. We gear ourselves up to help with the transition (you KNEW there'd be a transition, didn't you? ) and the next thing you know, it's 'Anybody need a new arranger? I'm selling my new one!'

Talk about a letdown! Spalding's point is well taken... We all like to think that we can help, assist, make life easier for the adopter, and have often spent quite some effort to assist a new buyer, only to have that effort appear wasted when the arranger is discarded after the briefest tryout. Not much of an incentive to repeat the procedure for the next mayfly...

But the idea the an arranger purchase has to be perfect OOTB, with virtually NO knowledge of the OS, or any appreciable effort to find third party styles to fill whatever gap in the ROM styles there is (and EVERYBODY can find a gap in the ROM styles of EVERY arranger) is crazy!

I can just imagine firstly, the glee in the Yamaha camp were I to announce I am getting an S900, all the offers of help I will get, all the attaboys... Then the disbelief as I tell you 'This thing is awful... It doesn't SOUND like a Roland, it doesn't operate like a Roland, it doesn't have the same styles as a Roland, it doesn't FEEL like a Roland. This is the worst arranger I ever played!'

And you all go 'Duh..! What did you expect?'

Or maybe I simply go 'I hate it. It's for sale' and don't even bother to tell anyone why I hared it! Oh, the gnashing of teeth! But that's what's going on here. Zuki somehow seems to think that we're going to get upset with a negative review. As if!

But perhaps Zuki might be more worried that, as his opinions come to light, they might be founded on things that a simple fix exists, that he hasn't taken the time to ask about. Can't get a feature to work the way you expect it to work? You can do one of two things. Give up, or ask someone. Can't find a style that you need for a particular type of song? You can do one of two things. Give up. Or ask someone where you might find this style.

Now, I consider myself reasonably familiar with arrangers, but I was discovering things that the G70 could do MONTHS after I got mine. Some of them quite fundamental to how I play. Even though it's another Roland, there was enough difference with the G1000 that many things needed re-thinking. The G70 (nor any other arranger, IMO) comes OOTB the way I expect it. But had I given it as cursory an effort as Zuki, I wouldn't be playing it now. And that would be my loss.

So Zuki... Trust me, my nose isn't going to get bent out of shape if you bother to explain WHY you passed so quickly (especially as you still had your main gigging arranger, it's not like you didn't have TIME to explore if alternatives to your regular workflow existed). Why not take a little time to just explain your decision..? PERHAPS you might find that others that have been happy with the G70 for years now MIGHT have a workaround for your problems.

You'll never know if you don't tell us...

In the meantime, I guess I'm just going to have to put a brake on my efforts to help Roland adopters, at least until a couple of months after the purchase. I'm getting tired of this being a waste of time.

OK - My opinion only:

The G70, in a nutshell, is just too busy for me. The 8 and 16 beat styles have major glitches and do not follow my changes in time - what the hell? I tried everything I can do to make them on time and can not. Why do these boards continue to have major style glitches?

The same with other styles in various genres.

There are only a couple big band I could use.

I think the Latin and Bossas are OK, but not that great.

There is really no soft stuff. Roland seems to think they have to be busy to be good.

The guitars are plain weak and I cannot find any styles that showcase an unplugged feel.

The Grand X piano is brittle. The other grand is fine.

I like some of the synth leads and the fabulous scat, but not too many sounds after that.

As I compare a song like Begin The Beguine on the G70 vs the S900 - there is no comparison. Roland has not thought through the process of adding very cool variation changes as the song progresses. Never mind not having very cool breaks and intros and endings that give total song configuration. However, I found a fabulous PA800 style that worked awesome for that song. The string mulipads and very cool variations were fantastic. That's what I use. Roland doesn't support that.

I played the G70 for hours again and just came back from another hour on it. Sorry, don't like it - at all.

For me, the PA800 blows the G70 away. The 800 would be one that I would take time again to work on and may consider if I sell the G. (I also play it at GC on a regular basis).

zuki

Zuki Im gld you said in the opening this is "your opinion"

Again as I stated in a previous post before commenting I would really like to hear a few demo samples of these so called glitches on the styles you mention on the G70...without hearing any of these broad descriptions while your playing is pretty pointless to continue to figure out what someone is discussing, especially when Myself & many others haven't experienced anything like that.

Zuki,

You should try the Pa2. If you like the PA800, the PA2 adds those sliders which allow you to completely shut down the backing tracks other than the Bass and Drums. I love that features because it removes some of the cheeziness of the over-the-top styles.

Al

From my previous post-

Looking at Dnj,Don M,Zuki and also others that I know in my own personal Xperience.
going from Yam and (Technics) -to others --coming back to Yammy again

These symptoms are very common.
Once you use Yam arranger (even if you used Korg ,roland,Ketron),it's harder to go back because your tolerance for Non sense OS becomes lower.

Quick sound and style selection,onboard buttons for quick select(for other func),weight-price-sound-versatility ratio ,simple yet versatile styles (both classic and contemporary),quick effective fills,playing style drums sync'd with SMF , the list goes on.

Angry with their hardware,Keys,VH ,no 76 keys,some sounds(where competition is good at) ,but the ease of use,OS,3rd party support(meaning from others -not support from YAMAHA) and versatility beat the competition out of water.


You have to give a diehard Korg/Roland fan a yamaha arranger,make him gig with it(not in a band -OMB that uses styles) for a several weeks and he'll never go back once he taste the logical OS and freedom while performing .

we are taliking about ARRANGERS only .Not WS.WS wise Triton beats Motifs easily(aleast the first two).

If a player starts to use less backing styles, then they tend to go other way.

Again this is for arranger style using gigging musicians,home players with$$$ or SMF players- a different story.

Pleae feel free to add whatever you want.

I don't have time to demo glitches. Believe me, they're there. They're on the Ketron even worse and a very few on the Korg. The Yamaha is pretty much glitch free.

zuki

Al sounds like you're really enjoying that PA2.

While I do like the simple/generic operation of the Yamaha....I can't imagine going back unless they come up to par with the key feel and vocal inputs. I can play all night on a Korg arranger with no discomfort, but those flimsy Yamaha keys make it a chore to get through the first 2 hours for me.

O/S aside ...... I can't go back.

Like in my post , the reason someone dislikes yamaha is mainly hardware(key feel,less keys,construction), VH and some XG sounds and over Equalization.

But almost never with styles (western music), OS for OMB playing.Like in my post if you use less styles, more SMF or only as drum machine ,you have other options.

S 900's guitar styles(ac guitar/bass drums -3 piece combo type) beat everthing in the market including PA2x,SD5 and G70s.


Why? because they put more $ on style programming, OMB play.They know that styles and logical OS/buttons play very important role in an arranger.


Individual sounds (except for SAs)Korg has the edge (more body and depth).

Again we are taking about arrangers,to play arranger live in OMB situation.Not in a band,not @ home ,not SMF or using LH bass.old I30 can do the job without any problem.


Most of us here will buy a Yammy arranger module in a minute.Or if Yam put better and more keys/ improve VH - competition will have a tough time to compete.


BTW -I'm a mostly Korg user(both Ws and Arranger)(also Rolands)(who used to bash Yammy for sounds/hardware etc), but in recent years I really can't stop noticing them doing it right in arranger department ,having total control in realtime without problems, getting less (busy)is more approach,etc.

Example-
think about pads that plays loops (only started in PAx series -not PA series)(while Roland still sleeps).Yammy have been doing that for years in their cheap models like 55x series.PSr 2k had it and PA 80 didn't for eg.I would love to have that and USB to device feature as an ARRANGER PLAYER instead of dual sequencers with primitive display for example - yes talking about lower $1500 -psr 3k and 1500).

BTW- Roland HAD the technology(yes before Korg) -1995 -XP 50's RPS realtime phrase sequecing feature- a multipad like feature -loops that can be assigned to a key(without following chords BTW), Korg followed that feature in their N series.But Roland's R'n'D dept did'nt think they should put the feature in an arranger.Yammy did and stole the market.

Go to a dealer, turn on a s900, press the 1st style group button and choose - 60's guitar pop or 90's guitar pop,choose a silde nylon SA as your RH voice,change the style variations and compare that to others including PA 2x and SD5.You'll understand why Yamaha is sucessful in making real world styles for western/international pop rock arranger and the reason why they sell well.Compare that to others Including unplugged styles of PA 800/2x pro.

In Yammy ,you can -(Sync/change) your poorly written(downloaded drum track'd SMF with your styles.Meaning -
Your 70's SMF will play with a contemp snare style of mid 2000s).
Logical layout - in sound section press (mony/ply button),DSP ,R1 /R2 instant mute/on/select PHYSICAL buttons, the list goes on.

I hate to press tempo buttons though (in KORG the wheel will take care of it,also double pressing a button will go the the next page)_BUT you have to press A/B button to change sound/styles selection in Korg-poor design continued from PA 80.).Yeah ,Korg's songbook saves tranposed data - but other disadvantages as an ARRANGER makes that little.

Any KB builder can make a good sound- Motif ,Fantoms and Tritons are the proofs.

But can they make a GOOD ARRANGER with GOOD styles to be used for live play for a ONE MAND BAND?(NOTin a /homestudio/live band or partially using as a drum machine using LH bass)-.

Yammy is doing arranger job quite well (and getting away with it's deficiencies -hardware,VH, no real seq etc) since competition don't get it.

I want all arranger makers to compete in doing a GOOD ARRANGER.

We don't need a WS, not a 8 track recorder(good to have as long as they don't take out other must haves), not putting a fancy superficial new feature and omit(Dbeam in and Chord seq out in Roland,yes I know I can trigger D beam) or weaken a major feature or put a must have physical button under sub menus or A/B buttons, saving $ in wrong area (like PA 500 not having lights for pads, taking away bass inversion button),Or not having a feature at all (Multi Pads in Roland),etc.

Just a thought and advice to some.




[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 03-02-2008).]

jamman

That was a very good read !!! Thanks

I must say, jamman...that was a great post...you made some excellent points/observations.

Ian

I am going to add my 2 cents..

Zuki..the common denominator with the Ketron and Roland glitches problems the past week...........is Zuki..

While you still have the G70..try the intelligent recognition ..It will read chords and may be more forgiven with poor timing issues..And yes ..in this mode it will read major chords with one finger..Don, it plays correctly , that is why you never found it to be wrong..In Standard mode you need to play the chord..And piano mode will not read unless a 3 note chord is played..

My observation..maybe the Roland processor is more powerful..it seems to me..to recognize the chord changes precisely when applied...and not at the end of any particular beat or end of measures..

Maybe this is why Yamaha seems to be smoother[forgiving]..

The final decision of what is right for you ...is yours..

Personally, I would not switch or add[a module] a Yamaha...The quality is not there, and the sounds are too thin...I don't like the way it responds to the key playability..

For others..it may be fine..

On the poor drum adjustments mentioned with a SMF.. Here the problem was/is solely a Yamaha drum problem [hand claps }..

It is nice that the Yamaha can add the drum pattern play in place of a SMF drum track...It is more than nice..it is a necessity, due to the poor drum kit that Yamaha decided to map and call them GM..

Just bringing up an opposite view of things already remarked...

I noticed that some of you guys are mentioning the PA2x.
Well I heard it, and I am blown away. I mean just the thought of BALANCED OUTPUTS impresses me! I think there is nothing else on the market that can compete with that board ( except WERSI = monster ).

It seems that Korg is paying more attention to what users demand.

Zuki. Don't give up yet. Good points made by all here. However, this is a different beast than the Yamaha that you are used to and endeared to. I have the G-70 and it took me a month to just get used to it. I played PSRs for 10 years and they seem to be more forgiving with your chord fingering. If you play the chord correctly and on tempo it will give it to you perfectly.
My second post on this board after I got the G-70 was THIS MIGHT BE TO SMART FOR ME.
As an organist I found that I had become
sloppy with my chords (3-4-5 fingers). Once I tuned up this thing was a whole different instrument and became a real PLEASURE. The key feel and the 76 keys are unsurpassed. You should really try and spend some time with it.
I play 4-5 NH gigs a week (I assume you are playing this venue by your Begin the Beguine example) and have never felt that the styles are to busy.
Try a few diffent styles that you might think would work. For example with Begin the Beguine try the Bolero style in the Ball room styles. Even in the Music Assistant there are great matches. Try Sentimental Journey with OTS. Awesome. Or Ticket to Ride with Live Band, Real Band. And if you can sing the VH is as good as it gets. Give it a little more time cause it doesn't seem that you are under pressure to have this up to speed right now. Hopefully the more you play and explore you ears become more comfortable with what you hear.
And if this one doesn't work out, good luck with the next one.
Stay Happy
ScottC

Thanks for the tips. I suppose my sloppy fingering is the problem here, depsite 40 years of experience.

I just now tried a few different latin styles and the very same thing. Immediately turned it off - styles are not balanced and instruments do not sync in time with each other. The instruments making up the styles do not meld properly. Maybe it's the complex chords I play from jazz books (the correct chords).

If Roland has to be hit dead on, with no error margin, then it's not for me. Besides, I tried and tried without success.

Funny, I don't have that problem with Korg (a few styles only) or Yamaha (basically none).

My escapades the last few weeks shakes down to the T2 or the PA800/PA2X.

zuki

I, for one, am interested in the complexity of the G70, plus the build quality. In reading the manual I couldn,t find what the PA 800 calls "ensemble", for block chords,duet etc. I am sure I just missed it.

If you are interested in trading, e-mail me.
Bernie

Zuki, I always play complex chords..4 and 5 fingered chords....I didn't know there was another way..

I am not having the problems you describe..

The balance issues may be better if you updated the OS..When I bought my G70 ..it had 2.1..I didn't even play it...I immediately installed 3.0...

Zuki what OS is installed on your G70?

if not 3.01 get it here if you didn't sell it by now.
http://www.roland-arranger.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=64&func=fileinfo&id=62

bernie I thought you loved the Pa800?

I thought you did too. Seriously, I do but still, it is only a machine and I haven't had a Roland since the D-50. I always liked Rolands quality keybed, and since I only gig twice a week, I have time to explore different keyboards in depth. I wouldn't buy one, but maybe would trade.
Bernie

Bernie...go for it...

The G70 is the best..

Hi Fran
We'll see what Zuki does.

This week..... :-)

On the KETRON products (and I believe the Roland G70 has a similar feature), there is a function called RETRIGGER (Arranger MODE). You can set which parts (Bass, chords ...etc) should be triggered/played INSTANTLY (i.e regardless of when you press a chord - RETRIGGER CHECKED) or on the down-beat/delay - RETRIGGER unCHECKED). This setting can then be saved GLOBALY or within each style.

For a better 'breathable' & natural style arrangement/configuration, the keyboards ship with the RETRIGGER set to off/unCHECKED.

Thanks

AJ

Bernie good luck with your new G70....
keep us posted on your progress....
if you need help just shout!

WHOA !
I am looking at the possibility. That's all. I have no offer, nor commitment, but thanks.
Bernie

I have a funny feelin Zuki will be in touch

Roland's have no control over trigger options, just fingering ones.

But let us look a little closer... One thing to look for in peer reviews like this is common threads or complaints. The more people complain about a particular arranger's shortcomings, the more likely they are to have gotten it right.

To be honest, glitchy styles is NOT something that many have posted about. The weight... sure! The OS (nothing like Yamaha)... sure! The guitar sounds (especially in style mode)... sure.

But I don't recall much comment about that. Which begs the question... What is Zuki doing that no-one else did? This is hard to tell without an audio file. I wish we could hear Zuki play it, and see what is going on.

One thing to ask straight away... you say you are playing large complex jazz chords. Is that in two hands? Were you using the appropriate chord recognition system for that style of play? What is that system you ask? (Or actually, DIDN"T ask - anything - before you bailed)

I guess you're either overconfident that there is NOTHING a seasoned G70 player could tell you that you couldn't figure out for yourself, or unwilling to ask for help, but you end up reporting your problems LONG after you've already publicly announced your disdain for the G70 and your intention to drop it.

Kudos... after getting into this business relatively recently, it's nice to know that there is NOTHING that anyone needs help you with... Me, I get a new arranger, first thing I do is ASK those that already have said arranger if the problems I'm bumping into have a solution. Or if it's just me not grasping the OS and operation correctly. I guess that makes me a moron.

But a happy one, rather than dissatisfied.

And, you know what? Should I get an S900, I WILL ask Zuki, and Donny, and anyone else who'll talk with me about the issues I'm having, LONG before I issue a pronouncement about what a piece of rubbish it is, and by inference, what idiots you all are to use such a flawed piece of kit....

But that's just me... I'm no expert

Diki....
great post & some of the things I mentioned in my curiosity being I owned a G70 myself.....an audio file of the problem (s) would make alot of sense & explain to a fuller extent for sure.

Leave the poor guy alone!
He told us a long time ago he likes the Yamie OS, it works for him and doesn't want to take the time to learn anything else.
couldn't get more honest than that.

I can understand Zuki.

My advice is stick with Yammy (best arranger and O/S for OMB if you use western styles and use style play).(People don't quote me if you use the Kb as drum machine with LH bass or mainly as SMF /mp3 player or sequencer,or saying mine has better keys or VH).I'm talikng about STYLE PLAY AS AN ARRANGER FOR OMB who is doing everything on fly.Currently nothing beats s 900 or T2.T2 to me is a little over priced.S900's key fell is not great.


Yes , there'll be compromise , but the gain is more .Ketron,Korg and Roland overall styles,navigation,versatility as true OMB doen't come close to 2 upper model Yammys(s900 and T2).(Yes I know They can, they have done better in their times,but they are not getting the point intentionally on unintentionally for last 7-8 years.)Loosing out to Yamaha in western arranger market.

Buy $ 299 TC VH pedal.

If you love Korg's sounds, a used triron X treme is only $800 includes sampling and combis.used triton Tr is 450$.
Both can sequence,(SD card input in TR),USB to device (Xtreme).Both can play SMFs wihout anyproblem.Non stop SMF playback.Xtreme has more simu EFX than 2xpro and it can do almost everything.

write a SMF with your S900,load it to X treme,change sounds,efx and you'll have ultimate setup.

BTW -it's very easy to sell both TR and Xtreme if you don't want it.



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 03-03-2008).]

Diki thank!! You just made the point that i alluded to earlier. I dont care how good you are you cannot discover the capabilities of these boards in a week.
The manufacturers do things differently to achieve the same ends but its quite easy to miss the benefits of these functions because the instrument does not work the way your last one did.

And Chas you misunderstood and misqouted me earlier . I said i was unwilling to help when a new user had dificulties using an instrument if they did not hold it long enough before i could respond to their query and after i had taken the time to prepare a detailed explanation. It had nothing to do with their intention to sell the board.just my wasted time.

Would that he took his own honesty to heart...

Not much point buying and dropping two of the TOTL arrangers out there if that's all he wanted. Hell he could have asked ANY of us whether a Korg or Roland work ANYTHING like a Yamaha, and we would ALL have said 'No... nothing like it' (in fact, a few of us did BEFORE he bought them).

The thing I guess most of us are in arms about isn't so much the super-quick bailing on the PA800 and G70, but the stentorian pronouncement of what rubbish these keyboards are, with as cursory an effort as he made to grok them.

The only thing Zuki found out about the Roland was... it wasn't a Yamaha. Duh!

But many of his other comments - glitch styles, piano weak and thin (!) fly directly in the face of common everyday experience of owners and reviewers alike. If someone takes the time and effort to WRITE a review, it would be nice if they simply took the effort to find out if their opinions are based on unfamiliarity. Which I believe Zuki didn't.

As I said earlier... If I went out and spent a day on an S900, didn't ask ANYONE about anything that confused me, or contradicted what I'd been reading about for months, came back and pronounced it rubbish with no more research than that... Well, I'd have most of the Yamaha users (probably Zuki included) up in arms about so cursory a tryout!

Sauce for the goose...

Perhaps if I fall down and worship the G70 and all its wonderful attributes

And with that ladies & gentleman we bring this episode to an end

If Yamaha is just a style karaoke machine, then they are way over priced. Most people if they are going to buy an arranger for that amount of money they do not just want a machine that is a one fingered style karaoke turn on the keyboard sound like a recording type of thing. Most people want to play and give their own take to the music. And that takes features to make them do that. More importantly, the purpose of an arranger is to have close to all of one’s musical needs in one place. Most people do not want to pay a lot of money for a style karaoke keyboard then pay money for a keyboard that can play midi files then pay money for a wave/MP3 recording device and then pay money for something that they would feel good playing on (keybed). Most people would pay money to have all those features in one keyboard. Integration. That is what the Korg, Rolands, Ketron and Mediastation offer.

zuki

This may be the problem. As I understand it Roland does not have the ability to play the advanced chord voicings that Yamaha and Korg does. Rootless chords for example.

Best
Scott
http://ScottLMusic.com

Scott,

Perhaps so. But the G70 is gone and my new setup is the S900/PA800 live. No way one board will do it and after trying all, the 800 was the best of the 2nd tier (for my needs). Should be a lot of fun. The 800 handles (my) chord changes perfectly.

Now I have direction again and it took a small amount of time to get there. Nothing wrong with that....

Stephen, Rikki, etc - here come some potential questions again I know you all have the patience with me - thanks.

Thanks,

zuki

So does Bernie have a G70 coming now?

& your gonna carry two KB's to all you NH gigs?

btw Zuki what did you think of the
G70 Vocal harmonizer?

I predict in a week or so you dump both the Pa800 & S900 for a Tyros 2

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-04-2008).]

Donny,

Sorry, done with reviews. I seem to get myself in trouble. I'll leave that for others.

Excited about the 900/800 combination now.

zuki

Well, Zuki, I hope things have settled down and you can move onward and upward with your new instruments.

Good luck and have fun.

Ian

Will you be using a Midi hookup or separate rigs on your gigs....seems a bit much to me for 50+ 1 hr shows per month when travel & setup time is of the essence......
what do you expect to accomplish with this setup....I'd be interested to know.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-04-2008).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dnj:
[B]
I predict in a week or so you dump both the Pa800 & S900 for a Tyros 2

Personally, I can't see Zuki getting a T2 unless it's to use with the PA-800...he'd be losing out on the Korg's great vocal harmonizer.

Ian

Zuki, I'll be happy to help when you have questions. Of course we all know that Rikki is the real expert with the PA800.

http://www.tc-helicon.com/VoiceToneHarmonyM.asp


Why lug & setup all that gear to 1 hr Nursing home gigs just to breakdown ....run to another and setup all of it again a few times a day ...

use this TC Harmony M in May ....
cant wait for mine oh yeah!

http://kidman.itide.dk/tccinema/VoiceWorksPlus/quicktime_popup.asp?width=640&height=376&path=http://kidman.itide.dk/tccinema/voicetone/voicetone_harmonym.m4v




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-04-2008).]

I am concerned about the SETUP, not lugging stuff in and out. So what, you put an extra board on the cart - a lot of entertainers do that around here. It's not a big deal to me - I have the energy. Believe me, music is only a SMALL part of my day.

Here's what I plan to do, but don't know how:

1. Dbl stand the boards
2. Have the 800 as the default mic input.
3. Use the harmony feature while using the 800 AND while using the 900 style play.
4. Is it possible to play the 900 arranger and use the VH? (the 900 guitars pull off some terrific Everly Bros, 50s, etc medleys where I want harmony now).
5. I have Eon10/2 powered. I want to run both boards stereo.

That is what I'm attempting to accomplish, in addition to providing a more diverse act.

If it won't work and I do become put out, then Ian called it, I'll just get the T2 or T3, harmonizer and keep the S900 in the studio. I believe the 800 could never replace Yamaha, although I'll now kick it up a notch to find out.

Gotta have a plan - in business, plans are made and plans are changed - all the time.....all within a workable budget.

zuki

Zuki I think your idea is Overkill for multiple 1 hr In & Out NH shows .....
but I guess you'll have to find that out for yourself.....having said that,...
I love your enthusiasm

BTW what do you do for Bottom end using 10" eons? Carry a SUB also? I thought they really lacked bass in our A/B tests.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-04-2008).]

Zuki,

Having two keyboards isn't much of a hassle, as long as they are both fairly compact and/or light.

I plan on taking a digital piano along with me on my gigs as soon as someone makes a fine sounding and great feeling 88 note hammer action under 30-35 lbs.

I'd love to do a few solo piano pieces but 61 and 76 aren't enough...plus I want weighted hammer for solo piano.

You'll find the formula, Jim...sometimes ya just gotta experiment.

Ian

you forgot to add 50X a month

Yep, 50 times a month would be too big a stretch for me...fortunately, I only gig twice a week, but the money is VERY good.

Ian

Yep, 56x in April....

Anyone have ideas on my setup?

Thanks,
zuki

wow..I only have 5 in March[easy month)

Now where are my Rubber boots

Oh Donny I don't want to say it but someone is going to...........look under the chicken hat.
I'm bad, I'm sorry,

Hi Ian

How about a 25 pound P85 using Truepianos and a 5 pound laptop?
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%25253D565658%252526CTID%25253D,00.html
http://www.truepianos.com/demos.php

Be sure to see the video at the bottom of the page. That jazz christmas song mp3 sounds pretty excellent also.

Best
Scott

Oh the misinformed.....I never said "I wear the chicken hat" rather I use it as a stage prop in some of performances when the need arises....& not to upstage Ian ...
I get paid VERY WELL for using that silly adornment....



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-04-2008).]

Look, before anyone else starts accusing me of being a Roland fanatic (you all KNOW how much I bitch about it!), let me just tell you I don't care if the bad review is of a Roland, or a Ketron, or a Korg, or any damn thing...

I just care whether the opinion is derived from sufficient time in the saddle, and a modicum of communication with experienced users. Otherwise, it is a 'brief impression'. And should be posted as such. We have countless queries from newbies asking our opinion of arrangers they would like to buy. I simply feel that we owe them the full disclosure of just how long we spent, and how much effort we took, coming up with those 'impressions'.

Otherwise they might take my panning of an S900 after the briefest of confused tryouts of it seriously...

You wouldn't want that, would you?

Ian check out the Kurzweil PC1SE 76 note fully wieghted with the highly regarded Kurz Classic Keys Rom included..Great touch and overall weight. Makes a great controller too. http://www.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/Product.php?product=48
Cheers
Dennis

Dennis, the Kurzweil looks great, but at 46 lbs it doesn't meet my weight criteria.

However, the piano that Scott mentioned, the P85 looks pretty cool, and being a Yamaha, would be something I could get a great discount on.

I'll have to check it out.

Thanks to both you and Scott for the info.

Ian

Hi Zuki,

Instead of 2 boards you might consider the Ketron MidJay. It only weighs 7 lbs and it has great styles, it holds midi, mp3 and wav files and it records as well. It's a great kick butt little box.

Good luck,

Joe

Hi Zuki,
I don't actually use harmonizers so it's not a function I've really checked out.
Are you actually playing the PSR live
& hoping to use the korgs vocalizer for the harmony?

Is it still the lack of certain styles that prevents you from being able to use the PA800 wholly & solely??

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Rikki,

Good to hear from someone civil

Yes, I plan to utilize the harmony a lot. The little time I had it, I loved that feature.

I thought the PA was ALMOST there to replace my beloved 900, but yes, fell short in the total style department.

Stephen is going to send me some styles, so I need to harbor a bunch of 3rd party to get this thing to take over the show.

I plan to work out 10+ songs and take it live with me.

I still need to figure out how to hook everything up and will be sure to pick your knowledge as I learn more about the board.

Thanks for everything,
zuki

Thanks Joe,

Deal already done on the 800. Getting it with full intention to lug it around with the 900. I don't mind an extra piece of equipment if it'll make my show more interesting with the harmonies and more lively band sound.

Regards,
zuki

If you have a Yamaha, you can get 50 + gigs per month too.

...

kidding? may be a little-also a little truth in western music playin/style using and singing in OMB world( for the past decade by most).



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 03-04-2008).]

A big reason I chose to look at the SD-5 and G70 were due to reviews from seasoned veterans that had their instruments a long time. In retrospect, those reviews left me scratching my head. Who's to say that those reviews didn't set me back?

The right to offer a review is my right. Take it or leave it. If it bothers you, then don't read my posts.

Some just figure things out faster than others.

My life (business and music) is fast paced. I can discern what's best for my audience very quickly and that's all I really care about.

zuki

Midjay can't replace 800 IMO.800 is 85 % or 2x pro.900 is 80% of T2.So you are getting a good setup if you can carry.

If you have more SMF and little style using gigs PA 800 can take care.

Go to Irishacts - D/L converted Yam to Korg styles (you also haveRolnad to Korg and Solton(ketron) to korg styles)- good 8 beats from YAM 9000 series.No they won't sound good (some tracks ) as Yammy but that's a good start.

Zuki don't feel bad when I first started at the synthzone a few years ago I had the psr 2000 and thought it was the greatest keyboard going.
I'm a home player.
After reading all the raves and reviews, within three months I went to the psr 3000 and then the tyros. Then ended up selling the tyros in anticipation of the T2.
Then said to myself whoa! I got carried away listening to everyone else's excitement. Live and learn.
The psr 2000 was inexpensive and everything I wanted and most important I used it because I knew how to make it do what I wanted.




[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 03-04-2008).]

Hi Zuki,
as I mentioned previously I don't sing.
I did check the midi functions & there is a control channel for the harmonizer.

By the sounds of things it's going to be a case of setting up the correct midi channels ie a chord channel for the midi data out ( PSR) to Korgs Midi in.

For Live work you'd probably want to keep the setup simple as possible.

Were you basically just planning on playing either the psr or the pa800, and in the case of the psr , use the PA800's vocalizer instead of it's own??

You weren't actually planning on sharing sounds? ie mix of pA800 styles & PSR melody voices?? which is fine for recording purposes, but could be a bit tricky in a Live situation.


AS for Styles,

There's been a number of user 3rd party style links at the createsongstyle forum,
I'm currently saving mine into banks in their different genre's and saving them to USB stick instead of leaving them in the pa800.. A lot of them are too good to throw out, but there's probably also stuff I'm not likely to use like Dance & Trance styles , Funk styles etc yet they sound good. So rather than have styles I'm not using clutter up my "Favourites Banks" and create chaos when I run out of "Favourites" slots,what I'll do is when I need to audition user styles for a new song, I just load my bank of, just say, bigband or swing whatever, into the user style section, try them all out, if I then find a style that suits, I'll load it into favourites slot & & leave it there permanently. Saves having to reorganize a songbook entry .

I'd always imagined we'd be able to overwrite the existing Factory styles should I run out of Favourites or User style slots, problem is when overwriting a factory style or saving to an empty Factory style slot, the only way of saving the Factory slots is as a Resources File, they don't save as part of an "ALL save" like favourites & user styles do.
So if Korg happens to bring out a new resources upgrade ( like they did with 1.50 ) any styles you saved in a FACTORY style slot, would be overwritten. Catch 22, you either do the upgrade or keep the old one with your styles.
So really a last resort saving into Factory Style slots. Admitedly you could have the styles saved on a usb card, but they'd all have to be loaded back in individually, wheras Favourites & User styles can be loaded & saved as banks.

I'm still sorting thru mine saving as banks, are there any particular genres you need like bigband, swing ? Probably a lot would be double up's of Stephen's anyway.
I've also discarded quite a few, can't be bothered fixing if it's not a style I'm ever likely to use.

best wishes
Rikki

Rikki,

That is exactly what I want to do. I'll style play the 900 most of the time, but want to use the 800 harmonizer when I do. I might also want to use some of the 800 sounds as I play the 900 styles.

Thanks for the style tips. I remember checking out some PA80 elite and others, but not too much success. But I was getting rid of it and not too interested at that time.

Will check out the Korg site.

zuki