Another one bites the dust!

.........the PA800. A great board with incredible sounds, styles and an array of wonderful options - but not for ME.

Currently in the ads section and on eBay.

Next up for me - T2 - any trade interests?

zuki

Hey Suki,

I am selling my PA1X too. Have it on ebay and several websites - will get the Tyros 2 next.

Hammer

I knew this would happen.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/016922.html

&
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/016829.html

i must say, i find quite remarkable how easy you change your oppinion about these boards, zuki. nothing wrong with this, it's your oppinion, but i really am amazed how alot of us here would buy a pretty powerfull piece of technology and in a matter of days, they are ready to change. again! i believe it is just too much fun doing it... must be, otherwise i don't understand.
peace, brother!

I think that on a board such as this one, too many people get led to slaughter by the resident 'Judas Goat'. Assigning credibility to someone who repeatedly showers praise on their latest acquisition only to sell it and reverse course an 'instant' later.......well, don't you really deserve the disappointment you will inevitably experience by following such a person's lead.

Why a T2, Zuki? You could wait a couple of weeks and get a G70, plus a like-new Traynor K4 to go with it.....at full price, of course. Good luck on your next 'rebound' purchase. You might want to 'try before you buy' next time. Might save you a coupla' bucks. JMO.

chas

chas

You don't know the board until you have it long enough to figure if it will do the necessary things for your respective venue. One week was long enough for me to realize that it would take many months to make it work.

Adimitis, I tried many many nights to customize it for my job and finally got frustrated.

It really boiled down to the styles department. Although they are really very good, the versatility lacked, as much as tried.

I think Korg is close, but not yet there. It kind of reminds me of the Ensoniq days - power with little finesse.

I've played live with Yamaha only and will continue to do so. I wish they just would incorporate more in-your-face drums and better bass.

The T2 is desirable: a bit more power, pop up screen, key bed, more styles/sounds and a few other items.

Sorry if I mislead anyone. Don't blame Donny for sharing his excitement and swaying others to look at it. We all are big boys here.

zuki

It took me about a week to figure out that the PA800 wasn't for me also. It was just too hard to come up with styles I liked. This is not a problem with Yamaha, Ketron or Roland.
Still, I fought it for a couple of months. SOOO glad to get back to something "friendly".
Still, you can't really know this kind of thing unless you have it to try. It may be perfect for someone else.
DonM

I am in the same boat - been trying for over a week to setup styles for my gigs - very frustrating. It is really a shame because when I do find a good match it sounds great.

Hey Don, email me a contact phone number - if the wife and I head your way today or Sunday I will need to call you.

Hammer

"I've played live with Yamaha only and will continue to do so. I wish they just would incorporate more in-your-face drums and better bass."

Zuki, you can do this using Yamaha's onboard Style Creator program by creating a custom style, or via the Mixing Console and storing the information in registrations. It's very easy to do, and extremely effective.

Good Luck,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

I love my PA800. It is not as simple as the Yamaha system, but with all the plusses it gives me, I'll deal with the extra work to get comfy.

Things I can't do with the Yamaha:

1)sing through a pro mic input with outstanding harmony
2)mix live, seq, and mp3 effortlessly
3)trigger the harmony in real time with NO hiccups. I turn on/off alot. Yamaha has serious issues with the arranger being on or off.
4)keep the sound playing as I switch to other sounds. Yamaha cuts too many sounds off when you switch to another
5)octave of the RH does not change if I switch out of arr mode. (really dumb)
6)mutipads, songbook - no contest
7)keybed is so much better. tighter. firmer.

Things I miss on the Yamaha:

1)simpler styles
2)fillin/var buttons are the same
3)easier mixer section

These days, I play more all live with no auto styles, and in this scenario, I'd much rather play the 800 than any Yamaha arranger. The keys feel better, the sounds work better for me, and the general look and layout of the board is more reminisant of when I started playing keys long ago.

Roland keys are too long, Yamaha is too short, Korg is JUUUUUST right !
( Sound like Goldilocks, huh? )

Yamaha makes a terrific product, and if they ever put the arrangers inside a better feeling keyboard, I may go back, but for mow - I simply can't. I'm spoiled by the great feel and versitility of the Korg.

The 800 was worth the ticket price just as a piano/bass/vocal machine. The rest is gravy !

The closest thing I had to this PA800 was the Yamaha 9000pro, but the vocal input was no match, and neither were the drum sounds. So much inprovement has happened since those days.

Okay, so there seems to be two camps; those who take the time to do long-term comprehensive research including extended in-store experimentation AND whose purchase is motivated by a genuine NEED to change keyboards such as changing performance needs, broken or grossly outdated equipment, or possibly skill level having surpassed the capabilities of the current equipment. Then there are those with the financial wherewithal to absorb the potential loss in exchange for a chance to experience the new keyboard in a home environment and for an extended period of time. Nothing wrong with that. It's the lemmings that succumb to the rants and raves of the chronic keyboard changer. Many on this board buy and change keyboards on a regular basis. The difference is that they don't become rabid proselytizers exhorting all who will listen to convert or (musically) die.

I love new stuff. I am a self-confessed gear junkie. Sometimes I buy because of a perceived need and sometimes 'just for fun'. What I try NOT to do is make converts of the great unwashed who happen to be using a different brand. Neither do the majority of other members on this board. Although this trend seems to be abating somewhat these days, no one can deny the flurry of excitement and buying activity following the 'discovery', purchase, and subsequent ballyhooing of the PA800. This, after hardly a peep for nearly two years about the nearly identical PA1x/PA1x Pro.

For those of you that feel a need to stay in lockstep with the 'royalty' on this board and don't care about the financial consequences, I say, more power to you.

chas

Yup, fits my needs.(first PA800 now the Pa2xpro) I guess this is why there's Vanilla, Chocolate, Cookie Dough and Chunky Monkey etc. ice cream a flavor for every taste. Maybe if I were gigging every day it wouldn't do the trick....but at this point I gotta say no.

Maybe that's my way of rationalizing such a high end purchase in the Pa2xPro. After a year of turmoil including PSR 3000, Tyros2, G70. I found a home with the Korg PA2xPro. I enjoy and think Yamaha has a great products.

I may have never strayed to another brand if Yammie had a 76 key model. For this player it also feels more comfortable and fun to have 76 keys. I will also add I look to the pros who use a board on a daily basis and I will admit UD and Donny certainly had an influence on my decision, especially when it came to the vocal harmonizer.

DITTO to everything Uncle Dave said other than there is a longer key length on the Pa2xpro and I like that. Not sure how or why but I took the OS on the Korg like a fish takes to water. The "Songbook" feature alone was worth the move to this board. As I say a different flavor of ice cream for different tastes. Today I'm happy!! When a Tyros replacement hits the market that could change.

chas ... I really don't understand why this bothers you so ...
I also can't believe that people on this board purchase boards without testing them, but I don't know how ANYONE can FULLY test a board at a music shop ...

And anyone who purchases ANY product solely on the word of another is setting him/herself up for disappointment ...

And as far as I can recall, even with all the praise heaped on any board or other product, the 'royalty' always tells people 'YOU gotta be the final judge if it is right for you' ...

And how about all the "lemmings" who purchased something that was recommended and are happy with it, even if the one who recommended it ultimately wasn't ??? ...
t.

You don't know where you're going until you know where you've been.

Had big expectations with the harmonizer, power and other pallatible parameters, but had to spend many hours to rule it out (for my style).

Each his own, the story will continue - who's next?

zuki

I don't know, Tony. Maybe for the same reason my posts seem to bother you so much. Other people have been equally critical of this practice of what I call, the five "B's"; Buying, Ballyhooing, Bullying, Backtracking, and Badmouthing. But I haven't seen you criticizing their posts. BUT, in answer to your question above, I'm reminded of the old joke about the very devout farmer who seemed to be constantly plagued by bad luck and tragic events. Unable to understand why God would be so cruel, given his devoutness, he finally asks God why. Suddenly the clouds open and a majestic voice says....."I don't know, Clyde, there's just something about you that pisses me off".

Sometimes a simple explanation sheds the most light.

chas

Zuki says it would take months to edit the PA800 to make it just right... What's wrong with that? Expecting something to come OOTB and be perfect for YOU is completely unrealistic. And expecting to beat it into the shape you need in time for your NEXT gig is equally unrealistic.

When I bought my G70, I did not sell my G1000. I spent maybe two or three MONTHS tweaking it, voicing it, converting styles and SMF's to sound their best on that particular keyboard. Only THEN did I go and gig it. And only after I had gigged it a few months did I sell my G1000.

If you take the time pressure off yourself, and give yourself enough time to explore the full potential of a keyboard, and the changes in workflow and technique that ANY new piece of gear is going to force you into, WITHOUT taking it to a gig, you easily avoid the mexican jumping bean approach to gear purchase. There is only one piece of gear you can buy that avoids this.... Another one of what you've already got!

But if you find yourself selling gear because it doesn't work for you immediately, try not selling what you are already comfortable with until you are comfortable with the new. For as long as it takes. There's a reason you bought the new in the first place... The sound. It blew you away in the store (or else, why did you buy it? For TWO MP3 players? ). That's not going to change when you get it home. What has to change is YOU... No arranger OS is perfect, they ALL differ in some quite substantial respects. But the sound... that's what you and your audience hear. You want that sound, you GOT to use that OS. So just being patient with the OS, accepting it's differences, and using (even inventing!) the workarounds takes time.

Force it onstage too early, and back to the store it goes! ADD arranger 101.

Even a new model from the same make you already have will present you with a LOT of OS differences (unless it is such a tiny incremental improvement it hardly bears buying!). If you are completely comfortable with what you have, DON'T BUY ANY MORE ARRANGERS. No matter HOW good the sound, unless you DO have a few months to tweak it, and the ability to change how you operate it, the sound ain't worth the pain...

But if it IS.... just suck it up! Do the work. Take your time. Get it right. Then don't buy another one until something else is just SO amazingly, unbelievably better sounding than what you just bought. That's about ten years or so for me. That's ten weeks or so for Donny Maybe he just has a much lower level of amazement...

chas ... I sorry I piss you off ... but remember it is better to be pissed off, than pissed ON !!! ... and you make me feel like the latter ...
t.

Big BIG difference in that "nearly identical" model. I had a PA1xpro, and it was clumsy, heavy and did not stack up to the vocal capabilities of the PA800. The 800 is a step up from the 1x in my book.

Diki,

You must offer some credit to those who can discern, within a very short time, why their new choice will not work.

I do have a CONSTANT and that is my Yamaha arranger, as I've had for years. With it, I play 50 - 60x per month.

I need to keep searching new things. The incumbent wins every time, but I'll keep trying. In fact, I'm probably going very radical next and am sure to offer you more entertainment in the weeks ahead.

zuki

No problem, zuki... whatever works for you.

I guess one of the things I'm getting used to (kicking and screaming ) is the tendency for members to prematurely post their glowing reports on these new purchases, LONG before they've actually figured out for themselves whether the darn thing IS any good or not...

It kind of makes subsequent reviews (from that person) kinda moot, as you have to wait for the FINAL review to get the REAL skinny, and that is often long in coming, as they hope to sell this lemon to some other person who might be influenced by all the hype in the first place!

Diki,

That makes sense.....

Diki ... haven't you ever met someone who 'knocked you off your feet' and you tell all your friends only to find out later things weren't quite what you thought ?
t.
PS: Just because someone may purchase and praise a kb only to try to sell it a short time later doesn't necessarily make it a "lemon" does it? ... "One man's rose" and all that ...?
t.
PPS: Since 1992 I've owned a total of 2 arrangers ...

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 02-16-2008).]

I still like my E-60.

SUKI

Don't trip....I played the PA 800 for about 15 seconds in Guitar Center the other day and it was an absolute toy...I just shook my head...For $2600 or whatever? For that $$$ it should blow me away...Like I said 15 seconds and I just walked away...

The Roland E-60 I played at George Kayes last week was so much nicer....and almost 1/2 the price...

I'm kinda new to playing arrangers but feel-wise I was NOT gonna waste my time playing on such an expensive board that sounded so thin & felt "toyish" at that price-tag...TOTAL INSULT



------------------
Steve A

http://www.soundclick.com/stevealtonian

Tony, you've got a totally wrong read on this. I wasn't referring to you in that analogy but in the interest of avoiding future confrontational posts, let's agree to simply not respond to each other's posts. For the record, I don't recall attacking any of YOUR posts, at least none that weren't directed at me.

chas

Welcome to the wonderful world of arrangers, Steve...

Even the manufacturers have this love/hate thing going on. Yamaha make some amazing sounding arrangers, but put them in a box with keybeds, knobs and buttons you'd expect on a Wal-Mart $100 toy. It's an insult to the users that happily pony up $1600 for something that the same price (in a WS) will buy you something built like a class piece of kit...

But, it's the only game they play, so buy Yamaha, you HAVE to make the concession. That E60 is a nice piece at that price point, though. So it's not ALL bad...

I think it's a good choice for you, because the sequencer is quite full featured, and there are some very good tools called Makeup Tools (sounds like a factory girl I knew!) that make it a snap to edit styles quickly to sound quite different to OOTB (out of the box). I have it's big brother, the G70, and sonically they are quite similar. A very 'live', in your face sound from the drums, a GREAT piano (get one, I'll show you how to tweak the piano to be even better!), and some styles that sound very 'live drummer'. Just don't get put off by the banks and banks of ballroom styles and polkas! Check out the 'Live Band' styles FIRST!

At that price point, I don't think you can find anything built as well, with 76 keys (who can play real piano parts on a 61? ) and such a good live sound.

'Big BIG difference in that "nearly identical" model. I had a PA1xpro, and it was clumsy, heavy and did not stack up to the vocal capabilities of the PA800. The 800 is a step up from the 1x in my book.'

Name the big differences.

The PA800 vocaliser is a downgrade from the PA1X vocaliser. Even the manufacturer acknowledges that ! The OS and functionality of the PA1X is almost identical to the PA800 so what was clumsy about the PA1X that is not on the PA800 ? Granted its heavier but thats because the onboard speakers of the PA1X are much better than the PA800 (again a fact acknowledged by the manufacturer to reduce weight).

Just curious to know how the differences between the two instruments can be deemed big by any rational like for like comparrison. No disrepsect intended.

diki,
i am quite impressed!
you make a very good E60 apologist! after all, you see it's n too that bad... reading your post, i would almost buy another one! - just teasing.

steve,
you should be warned though: E60 sounds ar not the same quality as G70/E80. also, please note that your "total insult" is actually what alot of people prefer. they might be offended by your almighty statement. of course it's up to your ears, but my ears tell me differently, and you should keep in mind a fact that is true: as far as i know korg has put the same sound engine in the cheapest of their arrangers just as the best of theirs. while roland DID NOT.


[This message has been edited by adimatis (edited 02-17-2008).]

chas ... sorry if I mis-read that, but it was difficult NOT to ...

As for not 'attacking' any of my posts, perhaps a re-read of your reply to me in BeBop's thread is in order ...

Also, I can't promise that I won't respond to any of your posts because they ARE often thought provoking ... but if I disagree, remember, that it is the ISSUE that I may have a problem with, not the PERSON ...

And that goes for ANY of my posts ...

PEACE ...
t.

[B]NOTE TO ALL S-Z MEMBERS; I apologize for having this discussion here on the Zone, but it is the only means for chas and I to speak with each other ...

t.

That's OK Tony -

It's quite entertaining for the rest of us

that's what I've always promoted myself as, zuki, an ENTERTAINER !!! ...
T.

Chas, I often thought you read too much into what other's are implying...not always..but often...

There are a few guys here that do have a underlying message when they try to cut you down...these are the same people that wouldn't even look you in the eye ..face to face..let alone "bad mouth" you...

Along the same lines..There have been many negative comments of other folks playing skills...One thing I have noticed in real life...Great players..even just good players...never belittle an other's playing skills....Maybe they don't have to prove themselves to anyone...Perhaps there is a message in the comments that skill basher's post..Perhaps they are really not "players" at all..

This is not directed at any one person.. ..more like several..

1) For THIS singer, the PA800 harmonizer is much better. The add-on board did not come close to the smoothness and blend that I get with the PA800.
2) Clumsy - it's been a while, but that's the only woirld I can think of right now. There were things that didn't feel natural to me. Can't honestlt say what they were.....piano sound was thicker, the cutting off of certain sounds...the inability to switch between song and live mode ..... little things like that.
3) weight - well, with all the extra poundage, my 800 sounds better than the pro speakers. That's personal, of course, but if the manufacturer says it's better...I guess their UNbiased view is the truth, right?

I just love this thing, and I would not trade back for the 1x for any money.

You know Fran, one of the things that I have noticed in real life, also, is that when a player of somewhat lesser talent DOES talk to a great player (or even a good one), they have a tendency to not tell the skilled player just how wrong his equipment choice might be, or to offer inexhaustible advice on how to operate his keyboard better...

Most of them just want to hear what the GOOD player has to say. You know, like they might like to learn something I know it's how I feel in the presence of great playing ability...

"Now, this is not directed at any one person.. ..more like several.."

zuki, I can understand your frustration. I found working with the Tyros2 very easy, and was happy with the result (mostly). The transition to the Korg has been hard work, and I still have a long way to go before I will easily find my way around making the sounds I want.

However, I have to say that what I have done so far has definitely given me a better sound than I had on the Yamaha. My wife (a great and trusted source for honest feedback), members of our praise band/ choir, and today some of the congregation have all remarked on the improvement.

So I must be doing something right, and it is giving me the motivation to go on. Now the question is can I make the next transition to gig with the new Pa2XPro, where I typically will do 20+ songs in a set compared to the 10 (5 new each week) I do at church each week.

I did download and load the additional styles posted by Dede on www.createsongstyles.com. I understand they are some additional styles from Pa1X or other Pa series products, that are not on the PA800 or Pa2XPro. Anyway, I found them a really good add, and gave some additional variety. You have to remember they don't have an Ending3!

There are a whole bunch of other styles on that web site from 9000Pro, Technics, G-70. Don't know how good they are, but that's another source. Might be a gem or two.

Once I have a bunch of songs in the songbook, maybe a good selection of favorite performance settings, I think I'll find life easier. I hope.

I am also enjoying the 76 keys and the keybed feel, so that is giving me a spur too (hope the firmer feel won't bring back my tennis elbow I had 3 years ago!).

Graham

Fran, the man. Fran, here is the hard truth. If you expect to get through life bash-free, you're going to be in for a lot more disappointments. When you put a piece of music out there for public consumption, you can bet that at least ONE person is going to tell you how it REALLY sounds (as opposed to how you THINK it sounds). I've had more than one GOOD musician tell me that I needed to go back and 'shed' some more. We were trying to get something done and I wasn't hacking it. It stung a little at first but I did go back to the 'woodshed' and emerged at least somewhat better. While I agree that negative feedback needn't be done in a mocking way, it's up to you to decide how you're going to use it. As far as all this other testosterone-laden talk of not "bad-mouthing you face-to-face" and stuff; well, frankly, that just sounds childish. I don't know anyone whose music sucks to the point that I'm willing to fight them; well maybe William Hung or Cher......or.....Bruce Katz (kidding, kidding ). Peace, my brother.

YES WE CAN.

chas

Hi Graham,

The PA800 is a love/hate relationship. Some of the sounds/styles really blow me away, but it overall is just not what I can use for my needs. Even if I had the time, it is just not my cup of tea.

Heck, my 900 works great live (and I have the luxury of using this until I find a more suitable board), but others wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole

I'd like to thank Stephen, Rikki, Donny and a few others who helped me explore the 800.

So....I'm off to something entirely new (yikes) next week and this time will reserve judgement for a couple months.

One thing for sure, the excitement is still alive and well.

zuki

Graham, I would say you're right on track and once you enter more songbook entries you'll be ready to go. I find the Songbook feature very helpful. I too downloaded some styles from the Create Styles site, some very usable styles. For a few moments I thought my ending 3 button malfunctioned. Good Luck