How to comment on someone's music

I want to thank Nigel for stepping in to institute some grown-up behavior with a banning policy. I am saddened that he has to spend his time to police the forum to ensure its success.

I started to read a post on SZ and saw comments like “you should be embarrassed to post that”, “my beginning students play better”, and I understand why “You” believe it sounds better.

I have played professionally for over twenty-five years and have many years of formal music education starting in grade school and continuing through college as a jazz and classical piano major at Temple University in Philadelphia. Twenty years after college I still study with a private teacher today for classical piano and I am considering reconnecting with a jazz pianist I worked with many years ago. I take music very seriously. There will always be better players than me that I can learn from. With all honesty, I have heard the musical posting of some of the more vitriolic commentators on SZ and I can play circles around them. However, I would only make comments to help them improve.

I say all of this not to brag, but as frame of reference of my background and experience as a musician. In all of my dealings with the many musicians that played better than me that I have been fortunate to learn from I always found them to be humble, constructive, and respectful of my efforts to contribute and improve as a musician. The reason I joined SZ was because I decided to buy an arranger keyboard to be able to explore different genres and sounds and wanted to seek out people with more experience than me in using the instrument. I ask questions to learn, and offer answers and suggestions where I can. Have fun, but be respectful.

So, to build on Nigel’s unfortunately necessary banning policy let me add my lesson on:

How to comment on someone’s music

1. Start positive and be specific
If you are going to comment, first comment on some of the positive aspects that you heard and be specific. “That was nice” or “I really liked that” were guaranteed ways to get yelled at by a professor in college. “I liked the groove”, “I thought your choice of instruments were good”, “I like how you changed backgrounds during the piece” are examples of being specific. Specificity of positive comments set the foundation for specific comments of thing to improve. Unspecific negative comments “it creeped me out”, “it was wrong me” shows the commentator lacks the knowledge of what to actually do to improve the performance. If you can't be constructive and specific don't bother.

2. Be respectful of the effort and know when you are correcting vs. opining
It takes ego to be a successful musician. You need confidence to play and you leave yourself available to potential praise and vulnerable to criticism by sharing your music. Be clear about stating fact versus opinion. There are times that things can be wrong; but unless you are critiquing a classical performance, more often then not you may just disagree or not like it. That is an opinion. Musicians don’t like to hear there is something wrong about their performance. However, they should appreciate and respect comments of what you believe you heard and your opinion on how to improve.

3. Be respectful of the person
Finally, I would like to add a comment to those you like to think they “say it like it is and the truth can hurt” on the internet. Only comment online the same way you would to someone in person. If your “say it like it is” style is disrespectful, I look forward to Nigel implementing his ban policy and hope that you can learn from the experience.

It’s just music, enjoy it, and share it.

Excellent sensible post RobertG.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts

Very well said Robert.

Thank you for taking the time to compose this thread.

I agree that we have to learn to interact differently on the internet than in person, because we cannot see the person's body language, facial expression and hear the tone of voice.

As you said it we are all on different levels of playing skills.
However I also think that we are all on the same level of enjoyment when it comes to arrangers.
That's why we are here in the first place and that's why I joined.

Aren't arrangers AWSOME?

Wow look at the last 10 years alone.
I love playing arrangers and I love sharing skills and songs with fellow players.
As you said it: there is always someone better and hopefully we can learn from him/her.
That's what this forum is all about.

To give constructive criticism is much harder then bashing someone.
It takes an act of maturity, interpersonal skills and time to compose a diplomatic mature yet honest response.

It has been done in the past and I'm sure we can do it again.

This thread is a great way to get back on our feet, start to act like grown ups again and to treat each other with respect.

I'm in.

Eric


P.S. I'm in contact with several Synzone members and we are sharing skills tips techniques and songs privately.
Many of us don't post these things because of what's going on here lately.
All I can say is: what a loss to the community.
If people would feel saver to post we could ALL learn SO MUCH MORE. Wouldn't that be great?
Isn't that what most of us want?
Unless you know it all which I highly doubt.
Think of all the things you guys are missing because people don't post them here.
Sad but true.

Robert:

First of all, I agree with your sound guidelines for critiquing fellow sz member posted music.

Considering the fact that you quoted me as saying:

'I understand why “You” believe it sounds better'

I need to point out that you 'left out' a number of important words when quoting me, and may have missed the purpose why Fran posted his song. Fran's song posting was specifically in answer' to other sz member challenges on another thread , to substantiate his repeated claims that his G1000's auto accomp styles & sounds to be far better than Tyros2's. Given this context, I felt my reply appropriate.

Ok, here's what I actually said:



Robert, I suppose I might have found a better choice of words. I will try to follow your guidelines more closely in the future, and trust others here do the same as well. Thank you.

Scott

Golden rule, my friends. Golden rule.

Amen, Uncle. I'm so glad you're back in harness.
DonM

Dave: Which GR are you referring to?

"He who has..."
or
"Do unto others before they.."

Either works for me. I just hope the discourse on SZ can become more productive without the need of forced civility from Nigel.

Agree. Forced civility usually lasts about as long as a mid-east cease-fire agreement.

Take the utmost trouble to find the right thing to say, and then say it with the utmost levity.


Ian

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Remember to leave good news alone.

THE BRIDGES TO CIVILITY: EMPATHY, ETHICS, AND SERVICE, by Sheldon Berman

No one here can say they've heard me and Uncle Dave get into it. It all has to do with humility huh Uncle Dave.

i think you should be able to say what you truthfully think about any performance.... i reckon it is perfectly acceptable to say you didn't like something or that you think someone played or sang something poorly, that is, after all, the point of an opinion....as for attempting to "correct" a performance (as mentioned by robert) well, perhaps thats the no-go area as everyone who plays has an interpretation, and, well, maybe they wanted that wrong note there on purpose....its like people in the classical field who make a great fuss (a negative one) over a player who may feel a piece needs a few more notes here an there, or slightly different timing or passion...no-one but the composer or the player truly knows what they are trying to convey in both technique and sound...so all we are left with is our "opinion" as to whether or not we liked it, or if it was different to our knowledge of the original performance/composition....there is way to much dilly-dallying with opinions in this world...if more truth were told i believe the world would not be in the state it's in...by conveying the truth a person knows exactly where they, and you, stand, and if you speak your truth's quietly and without rancour, i believe people can deal with that, far better than any well-intentioned lie......you don't need to "suck up" to someone before stating your opinion..that's diplomacy and look where thats got the world!!! just say what you think, but in a non- aggressive/personal way...there's no need , imo, to "soften" the blow....anyway, just my contribution to this topic fwiw...
dennis

Dennis: I understand your point about the classical field. Glenn Gould upset many with the Goldberg recordings. I find the entire issue quite amusing when you consider that Bach and Mozart were both great improvisers of their time and it was Joplin who was very much opposed to there being variations to his work. Marcus Roberts has received great reviews of his interpretation of Joplin; however, Roberts is quick to acknowledge that it wouldn’t have been to Joplin’s liking.

I am about as far from the Political Correctness crowd as you can get. I am a staunch defender of your right to say what you didn’t like something. However, to fully accept your position, you have to start with the supposition that there is the potential of a performance with no redeeming value at all what so ever. It’s not diplomacy to point out positives as well as negatives and to be specific beyond your feelings. I believe it lays a foundation to help the performer improve. That of course is imo fwiw.

In truth, the truth is just opinion. Your opinion may be YOUR truth, but it still really YOUR opinion.

This world is getting enough of people who think their opinion is THE TRUTH........

Used to be, once upon a time, when people, face to face, would use diplomacy and good manners to get their point across, but nowadays even face to face discourse rarely gets above grade-school 'yeah? Whatever!' (see Bill O'Reilly for details), and as for civility on a forum, forget about it.

It's time that each and every one of us read our posts out loud as if addressed to our significant other (or mother!), and then ask ourselves would we be upsetting the other person to say this out loud.

If there is a moments doubt about it, time to edit that post (BEFORE you send it!). Letters (and forum postings are just a 21st century equivalent) should be MORE civil than face to face conversation, not less........

Even a criticism can be phrased to take the sting out of it. If you can't be bothered to do this, what does this say about you (and your almighty opinion, not 'truth').....?

hi robert,
yes, valid point(on your second par)....and yes as well to your first par.... i think that it was perhaps because of this ability that both of them created such wonderful music
cheers
dennis

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 09-03-2006).]

Hi Miden:

Both of them?! "Both" generally refers to 2 people, so I'm curious which two people listed by RobertG (above) you were specifically referring to: Glenn Gould, JS Bach, Wolfgang Mozart, Scott Joplin, Marcus Roberts, or?

Scott

.........maybe it was Boo and I ?

I agree with everyone, yet I am not convinced on which is the "right" or "better suited" way. Please advice, or read what I say and comment if you like. Of course the questions here are questions regarding myself, but it may apply to you. I would like to read your comments.

What exactly is criticism and what is opinion? Who can criticize and who can be entitled to express his opinions? Does it take a "higher authority" (more experienced mucisian) to criticize?

Let me use some examples:
1) Most (if not all) of the guys here, can play better than me, even if blindfolded and with broken arms. That is an undisputed truth. So, can I critisize if I can't do it better myself? Can I say "Well, my friend, I think that you shouldn't do legato there and you should add some pads there" ???

2) Synthzone member XXX, can sing good enough. But I may personally NOT like his/her voice. What am I supposed to say? "Dear member, you are a good singer, but I would leave the room immediately after your first song because I can't stand your voice?"

3) When does well founded criticism stop and becomes "my liking" ?. If you don't like gangsta rap, even if you are an accomplished musician, how are you supposed to comment? Most of the time, I have never heard any of the songs you post in their original form. Can I simply say "I liked it, even if I havent heard it before?"

Of course you may answer that I dont have to give my opinion in everything. The question is, is my opinion (as an inexperienced player) worth a damn?

To me, criticism applies to technique, and opinion is about "like" and "dislike".

And don't get me started about IF the person who plays/sings is WILLING and OPEN enough to hear opinions and criticism and transform them into lessons for the future. Most of the time, IMHO, probably not. We like to be adored, and don't like to be bashed, for any reason. It is natural.

Trident: I don't think it is an issue of right or authority or that being a more or less accomplished performer determines if you can comment. For me, it's the issue of explaining the reason for your like/dislike or why you believe something is incorrect.

I agree with you completely that people like to be adorned. If I don't like someones singing, or don't care for a particular style of playing and have nothing constructive/specific to say about it, I don't. If I have something to add that I think would improve the performance from my perspective/opinion, I will. IMHO.

scott, i meant of course wolfie and joey, although the post was a BIT ambiguous LOL
cya
dennis

What, sadly, we have here are several members that seem to be unsure about what is, and isn't polite. Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away, very few people didn't KNOW when they were being polite, and when they weren't. They might not have been polite, but at least they knew it......

Unfortunately, manners, politeness and civility seem to have gone untaught for a generation or two, and our modern media have embraced this 'freedom' and made it seem the norm. I am afraid there is a whole generation that don't even seem to know they are being rude, yet alone give a damn.

Casual violence is on the rise in our societies, and few seem to understand the reason. I have little doubt..... If you don't know, and don't care you are being rude or impolite, only on a forum can you say the things you want to without physical repercussions. The rest of the time, somebody is going to take offense, and somebody is going to get hurt.

So it brings me back to my original point...... if you wouldn't say the things you post to your mother, or to a MUCH larger guy (!), DON'T post it here. Figure out how you would say it to someone you don't want to be rude to...... and THEN post it........!

Diki, PLEASE stop making so much SENSE!



Well said.

RobertG

...Well said.

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...shboom

Dikki:

Great post.....

"response made using your guide" naaaaaw lol..pose

Funny you should mention that.
That's how I handled my scout troop years ago. ( I was one of MANY troop leaders - just helping out while my son was a member )
When we were on a camping trip, and the boys got into some "colorful" language ... I made them write a letter, using the offensive words, and address it to their Mom's. Then, I held the letter till the second offense, and told them that I would mail the letter if I hear "it" again.

I never had to mail a letter !

Well, guys,

I recored the three songs that you've probably listened to from my web site. I gave the CD to a girl as a present for her 23rd birthday. Although I had received a very positive feedback for my music from the sophisticated audience of Synthzone, the girl didn't say a word. I didn't know if she listened to the CD.

Lack of feedback means lack of respect. She'd better say 'George, your music is total crap'.

Well, why posting on the synthzone then? Are we like that famous Roman singer (forgot the name) who used to pay to certain people among the audience to clap to his performances?

Best regards,
George

The art of music criticism (and it is an art) is different to asking a friend, or colleague, or just anyone on a forum what they think about your song. That's just an opinion, and like a certain body part, we all got one......

Criticism, in the true sense of the word, DOES imply some authority. When we read what the NY Times music critic, or someone from Rolling Stone, has to say about an artist or a performance, we are willing to accept the article's views as more important than, say, our Aunt Edna's (unless she IS the critic from the NY Times!!) because of the body of work of the critic, and his acknowledged credentials.

Some of the most respected composers and musicians have, at one time or another, worked as critics. They earned that right. But when anyone chimes in with an opinion of your work here at SZ, or anywhere in the anonymous WWW, you have to take it as exactly what it is...... the opinion of someone you probably have no idea whether they know a damn thing, or would recognize great playing or composing if it bit them, well, you know where!

So, what you are asking for is an opinion from an unknown, and if that opinion upsets you, perhaps you are taking their opinion FAR too seriously unless you know them, and their body of work and experience.

Critics, the real ones, that is, can sometimes be VERY harsh, and have ruined many a young artist's dreams. But they have earned the right to be that brutally honest. Those of us that post here with a reply to someone's request for an opinion of their song HAVE NOT earned that right. We are still only delivering an opinion, and as such, should have the tact and sympathy to deliver our opinions in less than insulting terms.

Anything less should be beneath us.

Diki,

Music is for all people, including those who don't have knowledge in music theory. The latter can critisize, too, and I value their opinion. It's all about the arguments a non-music-educated person pick and the way they express their opinion.

Actually, everyone has an opinion on different kinds of music.

I felt insulted by that girl's reaction. She didn't care for the hours I'd spent composing and recording, just to make her a present to her birthday. Even if she said 'Your music is crap' I'd smile and continue on. There are alot of people who like what I do.

An artist gets satisfaction when others react to his/her art. If people don't not react, why spend those countless hours on the keyboard? For personal satisfaction maybe? Why should I produce art if I am the only one who enjoys it (or hate it)?

George

[This message has been edited by George V (edited 09-18-2006).]

George: I don't think there is any prerequisite of musical education to comment on someone elses music. There are lots of things we critique without formal instruction. As example, sports.

For music, every perspective is of value.

As many have stated in this post, the issues discussed is mostly about respect and civility.