Computer recording

Hi can anyone tell me the difference between FireWire, USB and PCI-based Audio I/O and what should I choose in case of getting Korg PA1XPro and/or Motif ES?

Also, does anyone knows a good combined Audio-MIDI card? Audio should be 41-48/192.

Is there any special stores that assemble music computer workstations? Or probably it would be cheaper to assemble on your own..

Thanks.

Thank you.

------------------
New Yorker

Here's a condensed answer: Firewire is a very fast interface although the newer USB 2.0 supposedly may give it a run for the money once USB 2.0 devices become more common. USB 1.0 devices are the slowest although I use a Tascam US-122 interface, which uses USB 1.0, with my laptop for 96k/24bit stereo field recording and haven't had the first problem with it. The problems seem to come up with interface speed when you are trying to run more than 2 I/O's of audio at one time. PCI is very fast and is my personal preference for a desktop audio interface. On my studio desktop, I use the M-Audio Delta 1010LT PCI interface for audio and MIDI which meets all the specs, has plenty of I/O's, and has given me no problems at all.

Here's a company that makes desktops especially for audio production:
http://www.digitalaudiowave.com/

I think the only reason you might want a specially-designed audio desktop would be if you plan on using it in the same room that you are using for recording. The so-called "audio desktops" have baffling to reduce the noise from the power supply and air circulation fans but are otherwise pretty much ordinary desktops.

[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 11-05-2003).]

Thank you, The Pro.

Anyone else to contribute - you're more than welcome to do so.

OK. Does anyone can give me opinions on sampling rates: from 44.1 (for CDs) and up to 192K now.

I know that when you record analog with 192K and then convert it to 44.1, to cut a professional CD, the quality is better than if you'd it everything using 44.1.

But is it really noticable beyond 96KHz? I mean you need to go back to 44.1 anyway to have your music on CD and I kinda understand if you'd use 96K to record original analog data. But beyond 96K? The latest rate is 192 and I'm sure it'll go higher.

Answer to your first question:

Both the Korg Pa1xpro and the Motif ES only support USB 1.1 specification. But my recommendation is the Computer you either build or buy should have 'both' a USB 2.0 and Firewire interface. The reason being is in case Keyboard Manufacturers start making their Keyboards with USB 2.0 and/or Firewire interfaces you will already be good to go on your computer if and when they do. And USB 2.0 and Firewire Cards/interfaces are very inexpensive these days.

The Korg Pa1xpro has a SPDIF Digial Output (Stock). The Motif ES has an option where if you purchase their AEIB2 add-on Board (or maybe it's the mLAN Board??), it will give you an SPDIF Output. But your looking at extra money for the add-on Board.

Answer to second question:

Here's a top of the line Professional Sound Card that you may find to your liking: http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--AARQ10
NOTE: This Card allows you to input directly to your Computer 'without' the need of a Mixer.

Answer to your third question:

If you're capable of building your own Computer you may want to seriously consider doing just that. It won't necessarily be cheaper but you can pick and choose the Hardware/Software you want to go with it which is very convenient. PS: I am not aware of any Company off hand that sells Audio Computer Workstations but I'm sure they're out there somewhere. You may want to do a Google search: www.google.com and type in the search field - "Audio Computer Workstations" (without the quotes) - and see if you get any hits.

Best regards,
Mike

Sampling rates:

44.1 KHZ. 48KHZ is needed for video work.

I have compared recording between 44.1 and 96khz and I could not find a noticible difference. Although 96KHZ gives you the psychological impression that it is better.

But remember, by using 96KHZ instead of 44.1, you will cut your track count into half. This also includes cutting plugin instances as well.

Almost all professional sound cards support 96KHZ anyway. But when actually recording, 44.1 khz is the chosen model.

What software will you be using determines to some extent what sound card is better suited. What do you have in mind? I will avoid USB2.

You can assemble DAW yourselves or better... research exactlty what parts you want and have a reputable professional place build them for you.

Just some snippets...

Get USB2. It is supposed to be compatable with older USB 1 peripherals, and I haven't seen any major complaints about things not working so far so I conclude its a pretty safe bet. I'd make sure I had at least 4 ports, however, preferably using hardware rather that a hub. A lot of (newer) PC motherboards have 4 USB2 ports as standard (2 as sockets in the back and 2 as header connectors on the motherboard), and some cases have front USB ports built in that can be wired easily to these motherboard headers.

Audio soundproofing of the PC: I appreciate the logistics may not allow this but with suitable drilling of holes in wall and creative cabling, why not put the base unit of the PC in a different room?

Sound Card: I've got an Audigy1 Platinum EX, which suits me fine and is very quiet compared to my previous budget items. However it has significant restrictions in terms of the available sampling rate / bit depth combonations and I don't think the Audigy (either V1 or V2) is the card for you.

Hope this helps!

[This message has been edited by MacAllcock (edited 11-06-2003).]

I'm a little confused: USB or PCI based Audio card?

If keyboard has out to PC via USB does it mean that I don't need audio card? Or if I need should I connect it via SPDIF (or analog) to audio pci card or vis usb?

The USB on keyboards is for MIDI signals. If you have a USB then it means that you really don't need a MIDI interface, you can connect your keyboard to the PC via USB and install proper drivers to write MIDI tracks in a software sequencer, control a softsynth, sampler etc ...

If you want to record audio out from your keyboard then you would need an audio card. USB or PCI? well, this depends on what you are trying to achieve. Are you planning to record just the keyboard or do you plan on recording more instruments and do mutli track recording? (Like recording guitars, keyboards, drums, vocals ...)

If you plan on recording only keyboards with may be vocals, then I think USB 2.0 is just fine. It's easy to install and it would work great for a few tracks of audio. If you need more inputs and outputs for multi track recording then go with a PCI card, USB 2.0 doesn't seem to handle multiple tracks of audio very well also there are latency issues with playing back audio in a multi track environment.

I have an Echo Gina for multi track recording, MIDIMAN MIDI interface for my audio workstation for multi tracking and an Ego Systems USB audio interface for my laptop for Soft Synths.

OK, how I can found out if the keyboard will connect using USB and not MIDI interface?

Let's say Motif ES or Pa1xPro?

In reality, you don't really need anything fancy or sophisticated to make a great recording. Most PC's have sufficient audio cards to do the job, and the human ear cannot detect many of the differences some folks talke about in respect to frequency response. Here's a link to something I posted several months ago and most of the folks that have followed the procedure have said it worked just fine for them. I'll let you be the judge! http://psrtutorial.com/Lessons/L_Recording/LPR-MakeCD/lpr-makecd.htm

BTW: The program I use for recording is Cakewalk's Music Creator 2003, which sells for under $40 at Best Buy. It's a multitrack program that does everything you can do with Acid Pro, but costs a lot less.

Good Luck,

Gary

The reason there is a confusion is because some posters did not understand the question.

The question is not whether to get USB ports or not. All new DAWs must have USB2.0 ports.

The question is whether to get a sound card that is based on USB2. And the answer is definitely NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read the question carefully people. The real professional choices for sound cards are either PCI or Firewire (specifically MOTU)... NOT USB2.

Here is a High Speed USB Sound Card from Creative that is quite a bit less expensive than the Aardvark Direct Pro Q10 PCI Audio Card:
http://www.everythingusb.com/hardware/index/Creative_Sound_Blaster_Audigy_2_NX.htm

Some PCI Audio Cards are 'linked' to a PC externally. In other words, the actual Sound Card is 'outside' (called a 'break-out' box). the PC Case and Cabled to the PCI Bus by an included PCI interface adapter. The M-Audio Delta 44 PCI Sound Card is a good example. A break-out box can theoretically and for all intents and purposes "eliminate" the unwanted "noise" from the Audio signal. Which could provide a 'cleaner' sound to your recordings.

Here is another USB (although it is a USB 1.1 spec Sound Card):
http://www1.dealtime.com/xPF-Midiman_Audiosport_USB_Quattro

A USB 2.0 or Firewire Sound Card is recommended because of the higher transfer speed capability.

Investigate further on your own before you buy is my advice.

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 11-06-2003).]

keybplayer,

For professional recording, I strongly recommend none of these USB sound cards. No professional studio will carry them.

Both the Motif ES and Pa1xpro have USB AND Midi interfaces. The Pa1xpro also includes an SPDIF output, ie., [Digital Output]. The Motif ES has an "option" to add a SPDIF connection by way of an 'add-on' Board.

New Yorker: You can still use a PCI Sound Card by simply running the Pa1xpro or Motif ES's 'Main Outs' to either a MIXER 'then' to the PC/MAC or with some Sound Cards 'directly' to the Sound Card and then into the PC/MAC.

USB 2.0 or Firewire interface Sound Cards only "benefit" when the PC/MAC "also" have USB 2.0 or Firewire interfaces, ie., "high speed" Bus connections. So the Computer will need to be USB 2.0 or Firewire capable.

Midi In/Outs are only used for Midi data NOT Audio. So you wouldn't be able to use the Midi In/Outputs for recording Audio.

Best regards,
Mike

"OK, how I can found out if the keyboard will connect using USB and not MIDI interface?
Let's say Motif ES or Pa1xPro?
"

New Yorker, both of these keyboards can be connected via MIDI or USB to do MIDI work. For USB connection, all you would need is a USB cable, for MIDI connection you will need a MIDI interface on your computer.

Again, keep in mind this is only for MIDI signals, you cannot transfer audio from your keyboard using the built-in USB connector into your computer, for audio you will need an audio interface (it could be a USB, Firewire or a PCI interface, but it is a seperate interface than what's already in your keyboard).

You may want to tell us what exactly you are trying to achieve with a sound card:

Do you need a Pro or consumer level card?
Are you planning to do multi track recording?
How many audio ins/outs do you need for your work?
Do you have multiple instruments that you need to connect to your computer via MIDI?

All these questions depend on whether you should go USB, Firewire or PCI route. I see responses with pro level to very basic consumer level recommendations and IMHO you need to let us know what you are trying to do first.

Well, since Motif ES and PApro have USB ports, I assume they are 2.0 'cause they came out in 2003 and USB 2.0 came out I believe in 2001?

No, both the Pa1X Pro and Motif ES use USB 1.1 specification NOT 2.0. And there in lies the problem New Yorker. Keyboards do NOT use the USB interface for Audio Streaming because for one they only use USB 1.1 which has a transfer rate of about 12 mb/sec. And another reason being they (the Keyboards themselves) are not set up to output the Keyboard sound, ie., Key playing, Styles, Midi files, Multi-Pad, Sequenced data, etc., through the USB port[s]. That is the job of the "Main/Auxiliary Outputs on the Keyboard. If on the other hand a Keyboard had USB 2.0 or Firewire interfaces a logical assumption would be to utilize them for Audio Outputs to Stream Audio and Midi to a DAW or Computer. USB 2.0 has a transfer rate of up to 480 Mb/sec. Firewire has a transfer rate of up to 400 Mb/sec. Firewire 2nd generation has a transfer rate of up to 800 Mb/sec. Mind boggling to say the least. PS: (The Midi ports are used for streaming Midi data).

For the time being though you would simply use the Main Outputs of the Keyboard and run them to a good Mixer and then output that signal to a PC/MAC and into your PC/MAC Sound Card whether it be a PCI, USB, USB 2.0, or Firewire Card. Then use a good Multi-track recording software program to 'record' the sound[s] from your Keyboard. The Multi-track software will record the data as a .Wav file in most cases and then you can convert the .wav file into .mp3 by using a converting software. Then you could put the .mp3 files onto a CD by way of a CD-RW Drive on the Computer.

When Keyboard Manufacturers start making Keyboards with USB 2.0 and Firewire interfaces I think it will be a huge advancement in the Music making process and will consequently speed up the whole process tremendously. Until then were relegated to using the Main/Aux Outputs of the Keyboard to output the sounds of the Keyboard into a separate Mixer and or directly into a qualified Sound Card then into a PC/MAC and record the sounds on the PC/MAC using Multi-track recording software, etc.

Best regards,
Mike

Thanks all.

I think it is about time for manufacturers to include USB 2.0, not USB 1.0.

Yamaha and Co.: What's up with the delay????

NewYorker,

There is no professional sound card that is USB2. The professional audio and video community has adopted firewire. USB is useful for other things such as midi interfaces. The theoritical speed transfer is as not important as the practical rates of transfer with reliability and support. Will this change in the future? Maybe. But if it is changed, I would suspect Firewire2 will be introduced over anything else.

The best card will be simply determined by your choice of Software. Are you going Steinberg Cubase or Nuendo path? But you really cannot buy any professional USB2 audio card. It simply does not exist.

The examples mentioned are not professional and will even cost you more money. Because you will find out after buying them, that they will not do the job and so you have to buy another one from scratch. But that really depends on you. What are you trying to accomplish. Are you trying to build something professional?

I am not certainly of this, mainly because I don't design keyboards, but my guess is that these things are on the drawing board for a couple or even few years before they are released. Example - Motif -( classic ) released a couple of years ago, used Simms for ram memory. The ES uses Dimms. Computer technology progresses, but the design parameters probably reflect what was current when our "latest and greatest" boards were still in their design infancy.

AJ

What I want to achieve is a professional sound.

I will get Cubase; for midi i guess i'll go using USB (correct?) or just get M-Audio Delta as suggested by The Pro that has midi and audio analog/digital.

I'm planning to have no more than 2 keyboards, no voclas. Maybe will add-on Reason or Fruity Loops for drums.

In my opinion, Cubase SX2.01 or Nuendo2 are the best. Nuendo contains everythign that SX2 + more advanced features related to post productions.

It really depends on your budget. But the best two cards I would recommend are:

RME: best compatibility with Cubase
or
Lynx: the best convertors in its class

The above are the best no question asked. If you go to the professional Nuendo, they strongly recommend them above everything.

USB is good for midi interfaces. Some were recommending Steinberg Midex 8

I agree that firewire is the superior
interface, but to confuse the public even more,Creative is coming out
with a USB 2.0 external interface called "Audigy2 NX"(which is at least
SF2 compatible, unlike Extigy).

I use a Tascam US-122 interface, which uses USB 1.0, with my laptop for 96k/24bit stereo field recording and haven't had the first problem with it.

Hi I'm fairly new to recording, I bought a Tascam US-122, I'm getting a clicking, very fast, like clock noise. Do you have any suggestion on where to get info on configuring my PC and the hardware/software. Thanks, Tim