What is this obsession with.........

piano samples, especially in a arranger keyboard. In a studio, yes; but then I'd be using a dedicated sampler (hardware or software) or high-end sample-capable synth.

From what I've heard on this board, the quality of the pianos in the high-end arrangers is already better than the quality of the playing. It's like giving ME a Stradivarious.....or a $15,000 mic to sing through; all it's going to do is showcase my horrible voice (in exquisite detail).

Before I get blasted, sure there are a few good pianist on this board, but they are never the ones crying out for uber piano samples; that's because their playing sounds good on whatever equipment they use (ex. George V uses a DGX305 or something). IMO, the pianos on the Tyros2 (and my PA1xpro..though not as good as on the T2) are more than adequate for the usual ARRANGER functions....OMB or songwriting or arranging or family entertainment. They have probably already been optimized for balance within the mix of other instruments on that board.

I just think that somewhere, long ago and far away, someone decided that the measure of a keyboard was how good the acoustic piano was and that somehow, over the years, we've forgotten to modify that criterion. It may still have some legitimacy in the high-end synth market, but arranger keyboards....I don't think so.

This whole subject of loading piano samples into the Tyros2 came up in another thread, but since it had little to do with the original topic of THAT thread either, I thought I'd move it so as not to further extend the original thread.

I believe, and I could be wrong about this, that the sampling capabilities offered on arranger keyboards such as the Tyros2, were meant mostly for special effects, vocal loops, etc., not full-blown multi-layered, multi-gig, multi-$$$, single instrument samples that would be totally out of step with the quality of the other on-board voices. Personally, I think a sample of James Brown yelling "Good God" or "Hit Me" would be more beneficial to those among us that don't posess the "soul" to do it live.

Just a thought.

chas

PS: Carrie_UK, that last paragraph was a little long but I'm working on it .

Holy mackerel...I can't believe it.....
I completely agree with you Chas......it almost makes me sick...to realize we agree on something..

Cgiles,
I agree that, if I were a piano purist, I would never think of playing a high-end piano sample from a keyboard like the Tyros 2, with 61 non-weighed keys, that would make it difficult to control the expression of said sample. Part of the illusion of playing a real piano comes indeed from the action and this -together with the sound itself- is one of the most debated issues in other Fora, everytime the issue of the "best digital piano" comes up.
However, I have to disagree with you that the sample importing function should be used more to import vocal sounds or effects a la James Brown, to enhance the impact of a live show.

Let me make a few examples.

People keep saying that the T2 drums are too "polished" and lack the dirty quality found in other arrangers, like the Ketron SD1 or the Korg PA1 X; well, with 1 Gb of memory at your disposal you can import a ton of drum samples and build up your own drum kits, and this is a really easy task, first because you have to deal with no-looping samples and second because each sample takes just one note.
Personally, I have sampled all the keyboards and the drum machines I have had in the past. These samples reside now within my Akai S 2800 and my Ensoniq ASR 10, but they both have shortcomings: they have only 16 notes of polyphony, the Akai lacks the powerful effect section of the Tyros 2, the Ensoniq has a very poor user interface and the list could go on and on.
Now, can you imagine having all these samples within a machine like the Tyros 2?
I have recently expanded the RAM memory of my T2 to 1 Gb and have loaded all the vocal samples Yamaha made available on their website. They fill a gap the original Tyros had, compared with the PSR 9000, but I still have many other samples of vocal sounds, from almost every synth: Roland, Korg, Kurzweil...

The possibilities are endless!

cgiles do you honestly think the likes of Yamaha gave the ability to load in 1 gig of memory into the T2 just so someone can load in some super special FX WAV?

Any good pianist will cry out for a quality piano sample so he can show off his skill with quality sounds, without having to resort to carrying a grand piano around with him/her. A good pianist can also knock out a great tune on any keyboard they sit in front of, but if they are like me it's far better to hear quality coming out of the speakers.
Samples can also be optimised within the mix of other instruments, you don't need the likes of Yamaha to do it for you.

Personally I measure a keyboard not by how good the piano or other sounds are but by it's editing facilities and what it offers the buyer. Quality onboard sounds, styles and a great key action are a bonus, but I'd rather create my own sounds than ever use presets.
Full blown multi layered sounds are not at all out of step with the other onboard voices, they are far more beneficial than some James Brown vocal gimmick.

If people are happy spending thousands of pounds on an arranger only to use presets and never to explore the full potential of the instrument then I see that as their loss. People are either happy as they are, don't want or know how to use editing software, don't realise the full potential of having authentic sounding instruments (adding sampled sounds to the styles on the T2 makes them more realistic than they are in the first place).

Is there anyone else on Synthzone who wants to get more out of their arranger and can understand that particularly with a T2, loading in WAV sounds can be a huge benefit?

A great set of piano samples will make Mary Had a Little Lamb sound better....... strangely, I think a great piano sound benefits the weaker player, a great player makes any set sound good, whereas a simpler player benefits more from the sound itself, especially if they play simply (think Norah Jones simple).

However, the slow speed of sample loading makes all the arrangers, in a live situation, close to impossible - max out a T2's RAM and it takes over 30 minutes to load (from USB)...... and forget about it if there is a brown-out or power loss during a set. UPS's are a MUST.

When, oh when are keyboard manufacturers going to speed up data transfer from HD to memory? USB 1 is WAY too slow, and even older samplers with SCSI could make barely 1MB/sec, glacial by computer standards even back in the day.

Until they address this, sampling, at least for live work, does tend to be only useful for little hits and fx.

I like Dreamer's idea myself. If there is one weakness on this board for me, it's the drum sets. I have plenty of excellent sounding sets for DR008 and some of my other samplers that aren't all that large, and will load relatively fast into the T2.

This weekend I'll be taking the 512 mb's of ram from my Motif ES and putting it into the T2. I never use the sampling feature on the ES anyway, since in comparison to my software samplers it's pretty much a nightmare to use.

T42, as far as getting more out of my arranger.. yep I sure want to. That's why I converted all of those BIAB styles in the first place... so I'd have them long before I might get a bit tired of the internal ones. Next up are some new multipads, because the ones that loop certainly can add spice to a style or allow me to turn off and then substitute a style's guitar part, or bass line, for example.

I'll probably add a few synth sounds and multipads to my board as well. Good synth samples don't have to take up a whole lot of memory in comparison to some acoustic sounds - remember you're not trying to recreate all of the nuances of an acoustic instrument. I've got some nice synth soundfonts that are well under 8 mb total that have some great synths on them. Some are less than 1 mb overall.

As far as doing any serious sampling work, where I might want to have the best instruments in a studio / recording setting, I'd simply stick with my computer samplers and software modules. Using them is simpler than using most hardware and besides, noone I know of who is serious about using sampling in a production ( other than one shots or simple phrases ) would use a non dedicated sampler in the first place, whether it was a workstation like the Motif ES or Triton series, or an arranger.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 08-25-2006).]

Hi Diki
Both Wersi OAS Arrangers and the Lionstracs Mediastation will do what you ask.
Info: OAS 7 has about 700 Mb of samples as standard, and they are loaded into Ram at start-up, the time taken from power on to full use (Load Windows OS, OAS software and the 700 Mb of samples) takes about 1 ½ minutes.
If you want to use Giga samples or VSTs then once again this is no problem as only the start of the sound needs to be loaded into ram, the rest of the sample is streamed direct from the hard drive.
Hope this helps.

Bill

Hi,
actually I was curious about how long it must take to load sample into a T2.
If I'm reading correctly they have to be loaded in everytime the keyboard is switched off and back on again later??
Large samples I imagine would take ages.

My sd1+ loads samples but it only has 16mb ram. I ended up creating a clarinet from one of my soundfonts. Took a fair bit of work & wasn't really worth it in the end.
Drums are worth the effort & on the sd1 especially drum loops, as they sync to style & midifile.

Personally for me , I'd really only bother if I needed a sound the keyboard didn't have.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi,

Thank you for your compliments, However, there are several reasons I do not complain about the piano sound on my DGX-305.

First, I try to avoid complaining about anything. From what I observe on the forum, expressing negative feelings always leads to pissing contests, mine is better than yours, etc. Such topics are undoubtledly interesting but I think it's ridiculous to complain about a $400 keyboard. My complain-list is very long (incl. Live! grand piano sound) but I know that the solution will always be "George, go for a better keyboard". Until this happens, I'll try my best with the DGX-305

Secondly, no reason to point out the shortcomings of my keyboard since no-one who is reading this forum would go to buy it.

Last but not least, I know you enjoy to listen to something different than Tyros 2, PSR 3000 or G70.

Anyway, I agree with you. My fear is that one day people will stop playing the acoustic piano and the digital one will become the standard. So many options, so many sounds. It's a terrific gadget.

Regards,
George

I reply to the original post...

One point that no-one seems to have mentioned but is of interest to me is ..MORE VARIETY..

Sure the T2 pianos are OK but they are very similar. There is a world of difference in real piano sounds depending upon build materials. design construction recording techniques etc and I am interested in different sounds for different types of music.

I am not in search of the definitive piano sound but I would like as much variety as there is with the reeds, brass and strings on the T2.

Just my two bobs worth

Regards - KF

The reason i purchased an arranger keyboard as opposed to a dedicated workstation is that i wanted an instrument that was adaptable to any situation as i am not specifically a OMB musician. A workstation can be a great studio instrument but very restricted as a live instrument if other liv musicians are thin on the ground. But an aranger is adaptable to both studio and live work and therefore has a very obvious advantage over a workstation. Thats why a sampler included in an arranger was truly an inspired development because for those occasions where i want to play piano to accompany a soloist in church for example , i want the best piano i can find. I dont play in arranger style for those occasions and so the piano tone is very important. Just because i own an arranger keyboard, it does not mean that i will exclusively play arranger style.

I don't know... your title is so vague. I just can't stand it... terrible title.

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

Although I haven't been in a lot of churches, all the ones I HAVE been in had acoustic pianos. Why not use that?

----------------------
Bill (Semi-live), I'll try to simplify the title in my next post. Sorry it caused you so much emotional upset.

chas

Haha, sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine when people don't write anything as to what the thread is about. Drives me nuts. People say "Look at this" or "check this out" or "wow, this is something." Well, WHAT? Nothing personal, carry on.

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

When you perform on a keyboard I believe the first sound the audience expects is either a piano (acoustic or electric) or an organ. Those are just the most natural tones for a keyboard to make. And unless you rely 100% on organ sounds, sooner or later you will probably be expected to play a piano piece so your piano sound should be at least as good in quality as the other sounds in the keyboard.

The acoustic piano is one of the most difficult sounds to emulate digitally and so it has become a benchmark, and not just by users but by manufacturers who tout their keyboard's piano sounds. This is true for pretty much all rompler workstations, not just arrangers.

I am a pianist and if I own a 61 or 76 note keyboard then I also have an 88-note graded hammer action MIDI controller to go with it. It would be a strike against any keyboard to have pianos that don't sound good, so the other sounds or features would have to be exceptional for me to buy it since I would still need a good piano emulation to go with it. There was a time when I used a Roland EM-2000 arranger with a Kurzweil PC88 as a piano and controller - the EM-2000's piano were not good enough for my ear but the other sounds and MIDI playback/accompaniment features were exactly what I needed.

Jim the EM2000[same as G1000 sounds] piano was decent but not the best that even Roland had.. I have a great playable piano by combining E11 and A11 pianos, velocity switching with dynamics..I actually like it a lot..I think the patch plays better than the other piano sounds from Yamaha and Korg..also Ketron...

I know you are high on the Akai..do you still feel the same about it?

PS: for EM2000 and G1000 players try my piano example and tell me what you think..Don't forget to set the velocity switching to please your own touch..

Sorry - you may have me confused with another "Jim". I've never owned an Akai instrument.

Kawai

"Although I haven't been in a lot of churches, all the ones I HAVE been in had acoustic pianos. Why not use that?"

1. I am not a piano player and actually dont like the piano action
2. The degree of tuning varies from piano to piano and the sound will vary from room to room, or hall to hall.

Next time you go to a church, stay a while and play an acoustic piano. I gaurantee that there will be several keys out of tune or broken. Churches dont spend a lot of money on maintaining their musical equipment. When i bring my keyboard, there are no nasty surprises for me when i get to the venue. Its always best to perform on the day on the instrument you rehearsed on.

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Bill (Semi-live), I'll try to simplify the title in my next post. Sorry it caused you so much emotional upset.

chas

Ohhh... that Akai! Ha... sorry. Thanks for asking - my Kawai ES4 is holding up nicely and managing not to bore me. I've grown fonder of it's Rhodes and mallet sounds and the acoustic piano is still one of the best, maybe second only to the larger/heavier MP8 which I also love and am still tempted to add to my studio. But I enjoy my Kawai ES4.

The ES4 has a passable organ sound with leslie sim that I've used sparingly, but it really made me want something a little more true-organ sounding for some upcoming sideman gigs, so I just snagged a Roland VK-8m organ module from eBay like new to go with my piano. Happy me.