Collaborative tune w/ Tony W

Well in spite of the recent controversy over the posting of my tunes and their relative merit, I do not want to let that take any of the spotlight away from Tony W.

He composed a great piece "Hearts And Violins" that he graciously allowed me some creative input on to add a bit freely and also to re-record the piece for this cd.

If you would like to hear it, it is on my "current work" page.

Thanks Tony!
Terry

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Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Terry and Tony,

IMO... The strings are too loud, too busy, and are competing with the vocals taking away from them. The vocals are too heavily processed and sound artificial. I'd suggest backing off on the overall FX, redoing the strings so they aren't walking on the vocal, and seating the strings back further in the mix. That should help to make the work clearer and allow the listener to get into the vocal more.

Good constructive valid criticism.
thanks,
Terry

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Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Terry,
The song sounds great! I am really pleased with it. I am amazed at how 'full' it sounds in comparison with the 'rough sketch' I sent to you. You have worked wonders with it.

I especially like how you loosened up the lyric. My writing style tends to be quite rigid and I get obsessed with the 'form' of the words. As a result I sometimes feel my lyrics appear quite stunted. I think 'hearts' flows exceptionally well.

Excellent work Terry
Tony W

Tony.....your approval of what I've done with the tune makes it all worth it. Since it is originally your tune your opinion is the one that counts to me.
thanks,
Terry

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Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 06-29-2003).]

Terry's vocal style works well with the dark moody quality of Tony's song. Kinda reminds me of Leonard Cohen's stuff: http://www.leonardcohen.com

Im - IVm - V7 - Im
Gm - Cm - D7 - Gm
followed by an short interlude of:
bVII maj - Im
F - Gm

Ok, but what's with that annoying clanky sound of what appears to be someone banging on a pipe (mismapped drumkit?) throughout the song? Was this intentional?

I have to agree with Ensareyou re the strings & piano part fills sounding too busy. The fills could be simpler (parse), with the strings functioning more as a 'backing pad' with longer held notes.

Terry & Tony: Nice collaberative effort. I encourage you guys to consider re-recording your song now, possibly incorporating some of these suggestions.

Scott

I disagree with the constructive comments.. I do not think the strings are too loud, it is within the context of the theme[violins] and the clanking you refer to Scott, I believe are vibes[possibly accenting the heart with in the text]..And for the vocals, processing sounds fine as in any modern pop recording[listen to whitney without processing the voice and she is considered one of the better vocalist. I have worked with better artist]...If you need a constructive comment from me...it would be an increase of the vocals over the instrumentation, but not much..I personaly hate when vocals bury a good instrument arrangement..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 06-30-2003).]

Fran,

What type of studio monitors did you hear the song on? I'm fortunate enough to own a set of very high quality Mastering monitors that allow me to hear even the slightest subtle changes in a song. When mixing, mastering, or listening to music on these types of monitors they let you hear things you never knew were in the song that other monitors mask. On my system the strings were much louder than anything else in the song and the vocals were seated quite far back in the mix with lots of effect on them. I don't find the FX Terry used on the vocal to be consistent with other Modern Pop recordings but if you do that is fine.

Also, have you heard Whitney Houston's vocals in person with no processing? I'm guessing not. While her vocal abilities have been effected greatly lately by personal issues, her earlier work was certainly of a caliber that few people can achieve.

Lots of people say they sing yet few can truly sing. Unfortunately with today's auto tune technology, outboard gear, and lots of manipulation on the computer, some people can make themselves sound good and fool many people. The downside of this is they can never play live and get away with it. Many songs today are so heavily processed that the listener never realizes the artist isn't as talented vocally as they assume they are. One listen to the original master unprocessed is a real eye and ear opener.

Thanks all.
Terry

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Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Terry,

Keep sharing your songs ! Just ignore the naysayers. At least you can compose a tune ! Most guys can't even compose one lousy song although they can play thousands of tunes out of memory.

Hi Terry (or Tony): You forgot to answer my question. I'm still dying to find out what 'instrument voice' that percussion instrument sound is which continously plays throughout the song? Fran thinks it's a vibe sound, but I'm not convinced. I assume it's a drumkit instrument note assignment as the 'same' pitch is played throughout the song and which doesn't change as the chord harmony changes.

Lukitoh: I certainly hope you weren't refering to me as one of the naysayers, because I find a lot to like about both Terry & Tony's music. My questions were meant to help me understand the music more, and my comments meant to offer ideas from just my point of view only.

Scott

Lukitoh,
Thanks for the listen and encouragement.
Terry

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Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Scott,
You mean you don't have that patch on your Tyros under the synth sound effects? It's the "annoying pipe clanging" patch.

Fran was correct they are vibes meant to just accent a counter beat to the main theme hence the same notes (something akin to a heartbeat), for the "Hearts &"
Terry

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Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 06-30-2003).]

Ensnareyou, maybe I am less critical then you with our fellow on line members,,I don't think we have to respond as "experts"..True I did not listen thru high end monitors..I did listen thru a high end sound system[who can say for sure that the mix was to be suited for a large system..Your monitors are designed most likely for on air/radio play..As for Houston, yes I have heard her in a less desireable production, called live...It was much less forgiven than a studio project..and as you stated in your last paragraph, I find to be true with Whitney..

Fran.....my thoughts were also no-one that will ever hear my work will be listening through high end engineering professional studio monitors, in their car or home systems. For those that do own such gear then they deserve to hear ever little bit wrong and right...so they can be sure they got their money's worth.

The wav file sounds great through the average listening systems, which is what my customers own.

I'm not producing cds for engineers, my work is aimed at the average listening and buying public and that is who I am trying to please beyond myself. I appear to be successful at that as no-one has asked for their money back and those that have bought before come back and buy more.
Terry

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Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html



[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 06-30-2003).]

I had to go listen to see what all the discussion was about.
It's a good song. Like Scott, I don't like the clanking sound. Like ensnareyou, I think the vocals would be better with a little less processing and a little more upfront, but that may just be individual taste. I don't find the strings too loud. I'm listening on a $1,000 stereo system, but it isn't a studio-grade monitor system.
I think the comments are pretty much well spoken and constructive. Keep up the good work!
DonM

Terry, I enjoyed the tune. It has a good rhythm to it. I have to agree with Ensnareyou and Scott though that the Strings and Percussion (Vibe) and Bass were just a tad too loud in the Mix although I thought the vocals were very discernable and at a decent level. Also on the matter about all the signal processing, I think it is great that technology allows us the ability to strengthen and enhance our vocal capability. Some of us (me included) are excited by that fact. And as time goes by I think Vocal Processing will just get better and better.

Terry, the Vocals do sound somewhat over processed; perhaps too much Reverb or Echo effect maybe. I realize you have only had the TC Helicon Voice Works a short time and knowing all the tricks and tips about using it is an ongoing process. All in all I think the song has great potential.

Best regards,
Mike

PS: "I just love Postscripts btw" As you can tell by my frequent use of them. Now, about using a Vocal Processor in a live situation I think it is a great idea with great potential. And it CAN be done imo. Very easily in fact. Just hook up the Mic to your Vocal Processor, run the lot through your Mixer, Amp, and Speakers and Voila! Although the Mic would have to be corded of course. I would think in a few years the Vocal Processors will be able to use a Wireless approach which would be more convenient for an Artist. With these new high end Vocal Harmonizers, eg. TC Helicon's Voice One, etc., anybody's voice can sound better. Except for maybe Don Knotts. And what's wrong with a voice sounding better? And when used discriminately and appropriately I think the audience would be thrilled to pieces too. I am sure a lot of it goes on in a Live venue in the Professional Music World today. Just don't be caught in a spur of the moment type thing where you have to sing without the use of your sidekick if your voice is really substandard. I suppose you could make excuses to get out of it if worse comes to worse.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 06-30-2003).]

Don & Mike, thanks for the listen and input. I should mention too that Tony is not to "blame" on what you like or don't like about the recording end of it, that is my doing. And Don I too think very constructive comments from all but don't anyone be offended if I do not use the suggestions.
Terry


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Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 06-30-2003).]

I don't take offense easily especially about something as objective and creative as a song. It's your song and it should sound the way you want it to sound!
DonM

Don, I did not mean you in particular I meant it as a general comment, that all of us should not get our panties bunched up if the reiviewed does not follow the suggestions.
Terry

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Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Terry: I'm beginning to feel a little like walking on eggshells here in my attempt to offer constructive feedback, so please don't take this wrong.

If a distracting type atonal (out of key) effect is really what you're after in your song, then fine, but (to emulate a hearbeat), I recommend replacing the 'pitched' (vibe) voice with a 'non pitched' type (drum:tom?) sound instead.

Utlizing a 'non pitched' type sound will eliminate the 'out of key' disonance that's currently going on when the chord harmony changes, yet the vibe's pitch doesn't. I really think your song has 'a lot' going for it, so sincerely hope you will re-consider making this minor change to your song so you (and others here) might hear and compare the difference yourself. Then again, I promise not to get my undies "bunched up" if you don't take me up on my suggestion either. - Scott

Scott, thanks for the good suggestions, I appreciate the thought you put into it.
Terry
P.S. You don't have to walk on eggshells no offense taken, good criticisms.
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Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 07-01-2003).]

History repeats

Everyone needs to remember also that you are listening to MP3 recordings that have lossy compression and can ( and will ) cause artifacts and phase problems in certain frequency bands. Most MP3s I hear do not even equal well recorded tape cassettes. While it is nice to listen to MP3s using high quality monitors it is impossible to accurately judge sound quality from MP3 recordings, just the performance and musicality. Until bandwidth allows us to download uncompressed audio judging sound quality is futile.

I only should trust to what my ears are telling me, apart from what kind of Hi-Fi chain I use.

So, strings aren't too loud to me. I only think that the voice is a little too unnatural. So, being the man at the mixer, I will turn the voice effect balance knob a little to the "dry" direction.

Finally, regarding the song, Terry's style is very present... can we hear the original song somewhere?

If Tony wants to make the original available to me again, I would be glad to host it for a short period on my site for comparison. Tony?
Terry

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Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 07-03-2003).]

Hello All,
I don't mind if anyone wants to hear the original song BUT... please note....
The mp3 is and was only my rough recording of the idea of a song made as I was writing it.

It was only ever intended to give Terry a rough idea of the words and melody.

As it was never intended for public consumption I never bothered to adjust levels etc. and have never recorded this myself (apart from this first version) as I just can't sing it properly.

My original version is darker (IMO) than Terrys and more 'durge' like .

Still I suppose it will show the contrast between Terrys style and my own and how the mix of the two came about and how the two styles work together.
anyway here it is ..... http://members.sniffout.com/nsymon/hearts&violins.mp3

You would not believe the trouble I had even finding this mp3. For a while I did not even thing I kept it!
Best to all
Tony W

[This message has been edited by Tony W (edited 07-03-2003).]

Tony, I had forgotten what your original sounded like, it was cool to hear it again. What a difference between two IMO good versions.
Terry

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Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Thanks Tony.

I'll listen to both.

Hi Terry,
Yes the difference is startling! Having not listened to it since I sent it to you many moons ago I was quite surprised. Like I said I did not even think I had kept a copy of the mp3 I made so I have come to think of your version as the 'real' version

Best to you
Tony