Partnership woes / ethics ...........

Wow - last night was one for the textbooks.
I was invited to accompany a drummer/singer at a steady Thursday nite very close to home. It was understood that it was "his" gig (his words) and we began the first Thursday in January.

Slowly, I began to realize that he can't do the whole night vocally, and his repertoire is no where NEAR complete enough to cover this room, so the load fell more on MY shoulders to pace the room and such.

It itself, that wasn't so bad, but he takes liberties with time, ( I need to tell him when breaks are over etc ) and repeats his favorite "few" songs because of his lack of repertoire. AhhhhhhhhhGGGGGG !

Last night, we hit an all time low - He walks in and informs me that he "forgot" his bass drum. He only brings a Bass and snare as it is !!!!!!!! He even blamed it on his wife somehow !!!!
Now, I'm expected to carry the load even more, and his snarin' is not blending with the cyber-drummer that I have come to accept. I was pissed. ( NOT drunk, for my pals across the pond !)

I had contacted the owner of this place a few months before I got his call and it was definitely on my prospect list. Now, I'm faced with the decision too bow out gracefully and hope that the management offers me a solo night. Or go through a personal hell each night as an underpaid/overtaxed partner in a so-so duo.

What to do .... what to do......

Here's my real question for you ethics professors out there:

My initial reaction is to confront him IN FRONT of the management to let my feelings out. That way, he doesn't think I'm going behind his back to snake him out of work.
The trouble with that is - the boss really doesn't need to know all the interpersonal stuff that goes on ...... all he cares about is the cash register. (Which has been singin' loudly with MY customers that frequent the place now) That might be embarrasing toi the drummer - maybe he doesn't deserve that. I'm still thinking of possible repurcussions.

The second option is to simply give notice - be polite and tell him I want something different. Walk away from the date and hope that the crowd misses me so the management asks me in for a different night.

Third:
Maybe I should just sit him down and TRY to get through to him. Tell him what I need and expect in a partnership and HOPE that he might be able to pacify my needs for one night a week. I really don't need him. He sings OK, but most of the stuff is tunes I already do. the drums add NOTHING ( in fact last night, it was a distraction !) and I really am mush more comfortabe as a soloist. Our roots are different, our styles are different and if he WAS able to call all the tunes all night ......... we would't please the crowd that comes in to see me.

I know this sounds like a "me, me, me" rant, but I want some advice. Give me your views, and don't sugar coat anything ... this is me you're talking to, remember? I need it straight from the hip.
Thanx, in advance

UD

Tell him the gig is not for you and quit....but before you go tell the Owner "its been nice workng for you ..if you ever need me [as a single] give me a call..."
Dave you've been doing this long enough.. you know the game....good luck....if ya cant be happy it ain't worth it, theres plenty of other gigs! Argggg sidemen!

Dave
IMO tell this guy it's just not working for you and bow out if he asks why then go further, if the "boss" asks why then go further.

I think you will cut your own throat to become known as one of the two in that crappy duo.

I do not think you can win by going to the boss....he doesn't want to know that crap, nor really is it his biz anyway. That's a no win situation,the drummer will bad mouth you to everyone saying you tried to steal the gig from him, the boss will off you both for being more hassle than you're worth.

I think if you tell the boss anything it should just be that a duo does not work for you, so that's why you won't be performing with the other guy again, you're a solo act and should he ever need someone else to keep you in mind.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Dave, I agree with DNJ. I think you have to quit, especially if you've come this far and haven't solved the "problem" yet. A word to the management as or after you've left would, IMHO, be better than before. Good managers will realize your worth and know how to handle the problem. Otherwise, let it go. Your followers will go with you to your new Thursday gig.

Okay . . . you were INVITED to accompany him on HIS gig. Up to the moment you are still a PROSPECT. Alright, you are pacing and leading the room, but that doesn't alter the fact that it's HIS gig. Yes, it's nice to have a regular stint close to home, but (and I think you know this already) just walk away from this one, keep on plugging management - it's only fair competition (they've seen and heard what you can do, and if this drummer guy is as duff as you paint him, he'll be gonzo pretty soon).

I have gigs where owners have tried to pair me up with somebody - I tell them if you want to hire a duo for something like $400/night then my "partner" has to work for free because $400/night is what it costs for me to train and inevitably carry the partner.

Take the gig solo any way you can - your "partner" is a leech and will likely pull even stupider stunts if allowed.

Dave. I agree with the others. If this gig is the drummer/singer's gig, then 'bowing out' is really the 'only' solution, especially since it appears that there may be far to many resentments from you about this guy for things to ever improve substantially.

The 'good' thing about this experience, is that the management got the opportunity to see & hear 'you', which puts you in the "spotlight" for a possible solo gig consideration on another night, or perhaps a future replacement for that drummer's spot. I suggest that, only after you've bowed out with the drummer/singer, that you then, later on, offer up your services & solo availability to management. Good luck. - Scott

Option 2.
DonM

Agree on Option 2.
Eddie

Dave,

Are you entertaining the thought of ever working with this guy again?

To save the relationship, if there is one, it's professional to just bow out. However, the question is: Will he really know why you bowed out? Should Dave tell him in an honest from the heart discussion so this guy truly understands he needs to modify his behavior to work in this business? I struggle with this all the time. I always ask myself, Why am I the only one that always confronts these people and tries to correct their behavior.

Anyway, it all boils down to your relationship with this guy. If he is a lifelong friend and business acquaintenance and you value his friendship, you owe it to him to correct his behavior. If he's just a recent acquaintenance, then quit and move on.

One more thing, the longer you wait, the harder it gets. Do it now!!!!

Al

1. Bow out.
2. Tell the drummer in a kind way that you prefer to work as a one man band. It is not your job to improve others. Of coure, offer him the whole truth if he asks, but only if he asks.
3. Tell management you're available. Merely say that you prefer to be a one man band and leave it at that.
4. Tell the drummer that if the management calls you that you will take the job but that you aren't going to aggressively pursue work there. It is not necessary to tell the drummer that you left your # with management.
5. If the management hires you, explain that you are obliged to take the work as this is how you earn a living.

If you follow this plan, you have done nothing unethical, you have done nothing harsh. If his feelings are hurt, it is not your fault.

Beakybird

I too vote for option 2. I think Scott said it well. Bow out with class and let the rest take care of itself. It sounds like your "partners" social awareness and self objectivity leave a lot to be desired.

RP

We're all on the same page it seems. I fell better about that now. I never like giving anyone the "axe" ..... even if it's me, but in this situation...... Terry is right - it can only get worse.
Another drum bites the dust .....
Thanx all.

Well, I guess you have to give him a little notice . . .
DonM

Dave as you know , we don't burn bridges...or hurt anyone,, Give him a couple weeks notice that you want to close out the "DUO"...Don't go to the owner...Let one of the patrons speak in your behalf to bring you back as a single...I will wait a couple weeks and I am taking a good looking girl singer with me and steal the job anyway!!

Option 2, hands down.

I Suggest you bring a Karaoke machine with you to next weeks gig. Then just kick back and enjoy a beer...

I would never just walk away and leave him without a replacement - not my style. As a matter of fact - he just called and apologized for 1/2 hour. I told him my concerns. I was blunt, but fair, and not condecending. He took it in stride and now, we'll have to see if anything gets better.

My gut tells me that most of the trouble is just the addition of another "chef" in my kitchen. maybe I can overcome that and have some fun with it. Sigh ...... personell issues - this is why I went solo in the FIRST place !

Maybe he reads this forum!
Don

Dave,
Ethically i think the best thing to do
is to find a really hot young female singer with a huge repetoire and have her audition on the same night your daf is scheduled when she blows him away let him know his time has come bid him a polite sorry, its only right . For the sake of the art and your rep!
By the way happy birthday!
Mango

Dave, believe me, the guy will get another partner, and you'll soon get the call from management. You'll sound much better alone. Sounds like the guy is an OK person, so these things are harder than if he were a real jerk. Bad players will only hurt your rp.

An Itallian restaurant here in town took my recommendation and hired an acquaintence of mine. I sub for him often. They offer me the job every time I'm there. This guy plays sax to tracks...UGH! He's not good, but he's a great guy. I will not take the job, because I will not leave my current one, even though
the money is the same and this job is inside, with a great house system and stage.

Ethically, this, for me is like dating your friend's ex wife. It's ethical (I didn't go looking for the job), but would still hurt the guy's feelings. I've known him for 35 years. We played in a Motown band together in the early 70's.

But that's not your situation. You deserve the job without the hassle of putting up with a sub-par "partner". Option #2 will probably work out GREAT!

Best of luck on this one..it "ain't easy"!

Russ

UD I have heard you sing (via the internet) you DO NOT Need To Work With A SINGER!!!!! My mom used to say " A lepard does not change its spots" translation ... This guy will be what he's gonna' be. Bow out professionaly, say good bye to the owner and let the pieces fall where they may ... You will get THE call ..

I'm certain you didn't play for free so from what you've written it seems to me you were "hired" to play a gig with a friend and nothing more. Just because his talents, repertoire, and punctuality fall short of what yours may be it is as you say "his" gig and not yours and you should respect that. He was capable enough to get the gig without you and I'm sure that he's capable enough to play the gig without you as well.

If the management at the place finds his work sub par I'm certain they will let him go but until that happens you as a "friend" should never try to steal a job away from him. Bringing up these issues in front of management would simply be a bad call on your part and definitely beyond the scope of what any good friend would do. How would you feel if a friend you hired tried to steal a gig from you? I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy about it and neither will he. Tell him it was nice playing with him but you need to seek other employment. Move on, don't look back, and don't do anything to try and take his gig.

I was also wondering if this guy is so underpar with bad gig habits before you played with him, he must have been playing with others being hes' a drummer....
now if he pulled this crap previously at this gig for who knows how long...
what does that say for the management letting it go all this time? Hmmmmm?

Option 2.


AJ

UD,
I believe the general consensus is option 2, and I concur !!

Steve

I'd love to just walk away. Really, I would, but I'm going to give this guy a chance to impress me. I told him all my concerns. I didn't hold anything back or sugar coat it. He knows how I feel and he's willing to try and make a go of it.

He actually CAN'T do the gig with someone else,, now that the boss and the crowd is spoiled with my style and finesse. I'm not blowing my own horn here - it's obvious - all my Trenton people are coming out each week since I've been there.

There is still the issue that I was asked to play and that's not so cut and dry. If he wants to be the leader - he can set up a PA - call the tunes, SELL the tunes (can't do it W/O a bass drum!)and carry the load. So far, I'm convinced he can't do it. His material will loose him the job as soon as I leave ... if I leave.

I'm going to really give him a chance. If he played better, more aggressivly, and does his share of the work - I'll stay for a while. If he goes backwards .... I'll give my notice that night. If the house offers me the job, then so be it. I won't ask for it.

Dave

Sounds great. The only thing I'm confused about is the part about a 255lb guy having finesse. Would you please elaborate on how such a thing could possibly take place. I haven't seen many 255lb-er's which much finesse lately

My buddy Dave! I can't live without out him, and sometimes I gotta admit I can't understand how the rest of you can survive with him. I like the guy.

He can even say Tenor Saxphone players stink and I wouldn't get offended. I like the guy. What's wrong with all you other folks that get offended. What's your problem. Lighten up, laugh you'll live longer. Bunch of prunes!! Ha! Ha!

Boy this forum is fun sometimes. What did I do before I bought a keyboard and discovered it? WOW!!!

255 thats lightweight!!! I carry more then that and can still Float like a Butterfly & Sting like a Bee!!

But I love my Tama SUMO Drum Throne...
my butt thanx me every night....

http://www.tama.com/hardware/product.asp?ID=54

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-31-2004).]

Boo, don't you realize that 255 is the prescribed weight for singer arrangers over 50. As a 255er myself, I feel I have as much finesse as anyone on stage. In fact, I got soul. Play on, Dave.

Dave, you're kind to give the drumer a second chance, but I think you will eventually feel the need to split. We keyboardists are a tough breed. I can't stand when other band members aren't doing their fair share, or at least what they are capable of doing.

Uh Hummmm....

Exceuuuuuuse me - It's now 239 as of this morning !
I had Ham & Eggs with mashed turnips for lunch ..... mmmmmmmmm

whoops, I think I just dropped another pound !

239? why you Svelt hot body...
watch out girls!!

Just think, I used to know Dave when he made Donny look like a lightweight.

Go with Option #2 Dave--it's a no brainer!

Good Luck,

Gary

Why does society think everyone has to look like models?...to me most of those models look emaciated, & skinny...and I mean the men also......I think everyone is brainwashed with this diet stuff...
lose it gain it ....lose it gain it thats what it all about?

Now wheres my Monicottis Sauage/Meatballs?
& a dozen Baked Clams!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-31-2004).]

Before we know it this will turn once again to the "Atkins Diet" thread! lol!!!

UD is so forgiving, heck if I need a head start working for somebody I should call you up! (you won't be sorry)

I'm trying to learn from this experience. As a soloist, we all fall into little "traps" and they can create big problems if we don't check into reality once in a while.

The idea of playing totaly live music with no electronics is very exciting to me, however -I AM spoiled by the tight rhythm and controlled tone that my machine gives me. Still, there is merit in having a human element to play off of. I want to try and make the best of this, but I don't know if it's really possible. Given the chance to play with live drums or the machine is not the comparison. I prefer live ANY day, as long as it's quality, but the real chalenge in this case is playing with THIS particular drummer instead of the machine. It may prove to be too frustrating, but I'm going to give it a real shot. My vocals are strong, my bass lines are strong ... the third priority is the drums, and if he gets that all together - I can sell it. The vocal harmonies work OK - we do Righeous Bros and Everly Bros tunes just fine. I'll take it week to week, but he IS going to have to set up and use his own PA. My gear is set up as as solo rig. Tough nuggies.

UD .... Like you, I LOVE playing with a 'live' rythm section ...
But you've played primarily as a soloist for so long, I think any 'partner' would be an adjustment ...
BUT ... it is HIS gig (job ), so you either take option 2 or try to see if it will work out ... My money says it's going to be like the kb with the small plastic keys... it is what it is, and while there might be some positive improvement, I don't see this duo lasting ... When (not if) you bow out, the management will decide if they are going to stick with him or go another route... and if you're bringing in a new crowd... well, enjoy your new gig ...
And keep management out of the discussion ... they couldn't care less about that stuff...
t.

UD..you state that this individual is a drummer. I gotta ask, what kind of gig could a drummer (on his own) possibly get, apart from a parade!!
Gotta go with the majority on this one....walk away, you've got better things to do with your talent.
Just my thots...L

Actually I think it would be cool to play with a percussionist instead of a drummer... kinds like the percussionist with Spyro Gyro or something like that - very visual, some congas and lots of interesting Latin percussion instruments could add a lot without getting in the way of the existing drum tracks. I once played with a guy who used a drumKat midi controller - he just plugged into my 9000 Pro and added some accents here and there. Just for thought...

If there is a percussionist at a live show I will spend at least as much time watching him/her as I will the main performer ... Some of them are SO talented and interesting and add a whole different dimension to the music...
t.

I'd prefer a purcussionist, and I have a great one that i do use occasionaly. But I must repeat - this is not my job. The drummer called me, so I went. he's been trying to close this gap all week - we'll see how Thursday goes. It's just a little Italian resteraunt, not Carnagie Hall - I should be able to salvage something out of this ! Aagggggh !

UD . You try to make it work ... if not, you leave ... I have a feeling it will then be your job (gig ) before long ....
QUESTION ... how do you work in an Italian restaurant and still be on Atkins?!?!? ...
t.

Hey, Pro...


you're right! It's a ball to play with a tasteful percussionist. I do it all the time.


Russ

The fresh bread is still the hardest smell to overcome, although tonite, at the movies i was tempted by the hot popcorn aroma. It passed quickly though, and i was a good boy. Came home and had a few celery sticks.
The cravings really do stop after you rid your body of all the sugars.
It's mostly smells that you miss - you body looses the physical cravings and the smells are just reminders. Powerful, but not cripling.
Once a month or so, I intend to go off with the boys at our famous breakfast meetings ... then I'll be good again, and nothing will come of it. i haven't gained a single lb since July and I am always full.

Crackerbarrel? Mon, Tues, Wed, Morning Yummmmmy!!! Nice waitresses too
I'm ready!! Fran? Dave?

Tuesday around 9:15 is lookin good for me .... boyze?

Hi Dave,

I haven't written anything on the forum in months (although I do monitor the conversations). The following list are items that are irrelevant to your decision:

1. your partner's performance or attitude
2. your partner's ability or inability
3. the number of songs your partner knows
4. whether he keeps or loses the weekly gig without you [Who knows, even if you both work out your problems, you could still lose the gig (you know how owners/manager are)].
5. your ability to entertain the audience better than your partner
6. the money (sorry, had to mention this)
7. your reputation
8. etc. ad nauseum . . .

Sure, all of the above are on your mind but you asked an ethical question, so here's what does matter: YOUR VIEW OF RIGHT AND WRONG (YOUR ETHICS).

Look at ethics from the following perspective: Laws and rules were made to limit very bad behavior. Bad behavior is further limited by your personal ethics, which tells you what is bad and what is good. So, some actions may be lawful, but still unethical. Unlawful actions are in the black area, good ones in the white area, and all in-between is in the gray area. Ethics deals mainly with this gray area between the clearly bad and the definitely good.

Another way to think of it is being perfectly clean (being without blame) or being covered in black soot (being guilty as hell). So Dave, how clean do you want to be?

WHITE? Then, divorce yourself from any element of gain, revenge, venting, anger, or "setting things straight", and bow out gracefully (you know, the "what would Jesus do if this was His friend?" approach).

BLACK? Then, go behind your partner's back, steal the gig and dump him (yeah, the Devil made me do it approach).

GRAY? Well, there are lots of shades so pick whatever color bothers your conscience the least and do as you please.

BOTTOM LINE? The bottom line is this; you've asked all of us a question that not only defines who YOU are but our replies reveal who WE are as well, and we should all read every reply posted to this question CAREFULLY.

So, do you want to be:
1. Uncle Dave, the black
2. Uncle Dave, the gray, or
3. Uncle Dave, the white?

Its your decision, your choice, and your ethics. Someone once said that, "Character is made or unmade every day by the choices we make".

My very best prayers and wishes are yours,
Steve

Playing with a good percussionist is GREAT!

I use one (same guy for 20 years) every chance I get.

Russ

Steve,
I wish it were as simple as black and white, but unfortunatly, expecially in show biz - there is LOTS of gray. I have no problem bowing out of this job if my expectations fall short, but I will not snake him out of the job. if i resign, and then am OFFERED the job - I remain lily white in all respects. I am tryting to find a better solution ... one that keeps him working , and keeps me (and the audience) happy.
With regard to it being "his" gig ...
It's only his till it's over, and in THIS business, that can be ANY time. Nothing is solid. We have to earn our keep with every performance. I will sleep like a log tonight with my decision to handle this as stated.

Dave....the issue is complx, but your commitment for doing the right thing is rare, sadly...and ADMIRABLE1


Russ

Thanx Russ,
I just hope tonight is better than last week. If I don't see a full drum set when I get there ....... It's time to give notice. I'm giving him the benifit of the doubt, and I hope he pulls through. It just MIGHT be fun having a partner .....(once a week)

Quote: “In show biz - there is LOTS of gray”.

Justification is the paint used to attempt to make things white. I’ve seen a lot of painters using a lot of paint. Two pages worth so far, as a matter of fact.

Just an observation to add to Steve’s thoughts. Very good Steve!

Doug

So, oh great and powerful Uncle, how did it go tonight? Can't sleep until I find out.
DonM

Hey UD If the guy had the same ethics as you there would be no problem.It seems to me that you are carrying him.The fact that you have to take this home with you would be enough to make me quit.I think you are absolutely right not to be underhanded with his gig,but ask yourself would he, given his lack of professionalizm do the same for you.

This is business, not Sunday school. The rules are not the same, and even so - I have extended more than a few musical "olive branches" to this drummer.

My question of proper ethics was answered B4 I even posted, but I worded it as such to provoke debate and get some outside insight.
Thanx to all who chimed in.

Here are my facts about this whole deal:

#1) It's only HIS job till he looses it
#2) It's expected of me to do MY best work
#3) It's dificult to do my best when I'm being compromised by things that are out of my control.
#4) Ultimatly, the ROOM is the leader. It is my responsibility to please the patrons first, the managment second, me third and everyone else after that. Sorry, but the drummer just lacks seniority in the musical food chain here.

Thanx again to all who participated in this, but the issue of right or wrong is not the question. I've been right about my feelings all along. I just need to decide how to handle the mechanics of separating this duo. I will be as painless and tactful as I can, but this is my livelyhood, and it simply CANNOT go on in this fashion.

Off to work ! (as a soloist ! Ahhhhhh )

Though the drummer may be at a lower skill level, it's still 'his' gig, and you're still working for him. Until that changes, he's higher on the food chain here. If the club management can't see it by now, I recommend quiting. There certainly gotta be better fishing spots out there in PA, isn't there?

Dave, I think working as a solo entertainer better suits you (as well as many other solo performers, including myself) because only this way do we have more control over the outcome of our performance. I'll admit, these days when I work with other musicians, I hire them, not the other way around. I only work with experienced pro musicians who I've actually seen working, auditioned, or gotten as a referal from a fellow respected gigging musician. This avoids this kind of problem. - Scott

Uncle Dave,

From reading your posts in this matter it’s pretty easy to ascertain two things....

1. Your intention is to take the job over and stab your friend in the back...

2. Your ego is so inflated that you are failing to see that you are a "hired gun" in this situation and nothing more.

If you want to run the show that's fine but get your own gig. Attempting to take the gig away from the person that hired you in the first place is unconscionable. There is no "gray" area when it comes to ethics; you either do the right thing or the wrong thing. In my opinion your ethics leave something to be desired but if its works for you and you don't feel any guilt, great.

If the management offered me the gig I'd never take it no matter what, even if the other guy was fired. I've turned down many lucrative gigs because the person I'd be replacing is a friend. Knowing that there will never be any animosity between me and my friend is worth far more to me than what I was offered to take the gig. Of course YMMV from mine greatly.

Quote: “This is business, not Sunday school. The rules are not the same”. Unquote!!//

Dave, what sunday school did you go to? Did I miss something? Two rules? The rule of righteousness and the rule of business? Guess I learned something. Guess I learned the same two set of determinations ‘Ensnareyou’ ascertained from all of this. A word of caution, stay away from sharp objects. Deflation is painful!

Steve really bottomed lined the whole discussion when he reasoned: - BOTTOM LINE? The bottom line is this; you've asked all of us a question that not only defines who YOU are but our replies reveal who WE are as well, and we should all read every reply posted to this question CAREFULLY.

Doug

Sorry guys, but you can't rattle me on this one.
While it is true that I was hired as a sideman for this specific job - there is nothing to suggest that THIS job, or any other job is forever. I believe that this experiment has run it's course and it's time to revamp the entertainment for a few nights at this place.
I am not stabing anyone's back here and you know it. I told the managment outright that i will not "take over" the night from the drummer. I told them that they would have to fire me and make some changes to bring me back, preferably on a different night.
If my performance has made them realize that I am better suited for the success of the room, then it's time to make a business decision.
No one has the right to a "gig for life". That's as ludicrous as bad teachers with tenure that can't be fired for poor performance. It's just wrong.

This case is really quite simple:
I have treated this drummer with the utmost respect and generosity, but we are not a good pair, so I am ready to bow out of this duo. There is music many other nights in this same room and I have campaigned for one of those nights, as have many of my customers. So, if the house offers me a job - ANY job......it's not stolen, stabed, gray or otherwise. It's a job that I'm qualified for that they decide to offer me.
End of story.

BTW,
Ensnareyou ..... good to see you back. Missed you.