Someone try to convince me why I shouldn't get a KN7000...

I went to the store near me that has several Technics Arranger Keyboards on display with the Technics Flagship KN7000 on display also. This time I made it a point to extensively check out the KN7000 and asked the salesperson many technical questions about it. She was thoroughly versed about the in's and out's of it which was encouraging because I actually got some substantial and informative information from her.

I think I played all of the roughly 2,000 sounds included on the KN7000. I wanted to get a 'good' idea how the sounds sounded and if they were very realistic so I spent what seemed like a couple hours just playing the different Voices. Conclusion? I think nearly 100% of the Voices were 'very' realistic. The only Voice that gave me pause was the Growl Sax which I thought sounded a little 'off'. But from what I understand "every" Voice is 'fully' editable so I would be able to tweak it if I wanted. And there are luscious Scat Voices on the KN7000, and tons of them to boot. Also I thought some of the Drum Kits were a little weak but I had the volume turned way down because there was a Piano tuner in the store and he was trying to tune different Pianos while I was there so I turned the volume down so as not to disturb him. I later asked him if I was a bother and he told me I didn't bother him at all. He said he had a way of tuning everything else out and concentrate just on his tuning. To which I was glad that I didn't disturb him from his duty.

So the challenge is before you. Convince me why I shouldn't get the KN7000 if you can. Is there some 'secret' flaw in the KN7000 I don't know about? I know it doesn't have Aux Outputs but it does have Sub 1 and Sub 2 outs. Can the Sub outs be used as Aux Outputs? Is there some other concern I should know about the KN7000 before I purchase it that might be a buy stopper? Yes, the Sequencer Timing Resolution is only 96PPQ but did you know that 96PPQ is the industry "Standard" for Midi? (That's what I was told anyway). Higher PPQ is only necessary when you chain other Keyboard devices together and then Sequence and record while the other devices are connected.

All advice about the KN7000 that might make me not purchase it is welcomed and encouraged. I WANT TO KNOW of any hidden flaws or hear any negative comments "if they are factual" about why I shouldn't buy the KN7000. If you guys and gals can't convince me otherwise I will most probably go ahead and get the KN7000. But if there is good reason not to buy it I sure would like to know about it. PS: There is a new review on Keyboard Magazine about the KN7000 in the "September issue" but Guitar Center didn't have the September issue in yet. Can someone who's read it fill me in on the details?

Best regards,
Mike

Have you listened to other keyboards such as genesys and tyros?

It seems to me that one needs to keyboards:

Heavy duty workstation does it all like genesys and sk880.

light keyboard such as: Tyros and PSR2100

It seems to me one needs to compare any keyboard to Genesys and Tyros.

Thanks for your reply sk880user. Yes, I have played the Tyros extensively. It is a very good Keyboard but it does not have built-in speakers which is a requirement for me. Unfortunately I have been unable to find a dealer that carries the GEM line in my area. Besides, the Genesys is too "heavy" for easy transporting. The KN7000 weighs in at 38.8 lbs. which is acceptable to me.

Thanks again sk880user. If you can think of any other reason for me not to get a KN7000 please feel free to tell me so. I am trying to determine from other SZ members that have played the KN7000, own it, or know about its shortcomings, if any; to share them with me and the group so I can make a better informed decision on whether to buy it or not. So far, I am leaning 'heavily' in favor of getting it. But some revelation or fatal flaw about it that might sway me the other way is what I am trying to determine before I purchase it.

Best regards,
Mike

PS: I am saddened by the fact that I haven't been following the SZ Technics Forum threads on a regular basis to stay up to date about the KN7000. So I will also do some "cramming" to try and catch up with all the positives and negatives about the KN7000 before Monday when I either order one or decide not to (because someone or something convinced me otherwise).

You'll need a mixer or mic preamp. The internal mic input is horrid. Also, the hard drive is costly and specific to Technics. Other than that...if you want - I can order a new kn7k for $3000 shipped to you. Only snag is ... no returns. We don't stock them here.

Idatrod,

E-mail me directly at ensnareyou@aol.com and I will forward you contacts of dealers who can sell to you well below the price you have been quoted.

Dave, you may have just revealed the 'achilles heel' of the KN7000. I sing; that is one of my obligations and enjoyments as a Band member and Keyboardist. And to be able to run my Vocals through the Keyboard and out to the sound system is a lot easier for me. To not have a good Mic In with Harmonizer "when needed", is unacceptable for me. I am soooo sad. I had high hopes on the KN7000. It seems to be such a great Keyboard. The wind in my sails has just ceased. I was ready to open my pocketbook unreservedly and now you've ruined everything Dave. Thanks UD for giving me the word straight up. As I think about it now, I remember Scott Yee saying something months ago about the KN7000's terrible Vocal Harmonizer and it being one of the reasons he didn't get it. I am glad you jogged my memory UD.

On a side note I heard over at the Technics Forum that the KN7500 is suppose to be due out at Winter NAMM 2004. Hopefully they will have improved the Vocal Harmonizer to compete with the Yamaha's and the soon to be Korg Pa1X/Pro. If they have, I might again set my sights on the new Technics Flagship Arranger.

Thanks for all your help everybody. Sorry that it's not going to work out. And I'm sorry that my memory didn't serve me well enough to remember what Scott Yee said a few months ago about the KN7000's Harmonizer. Because if I had of I would never had posted these threads. I get so busy sometimes it's a wonder I remember what I had for lunch.

Best regards,
Mike

PS: Ensnareyou, thanks for your offer. It is much appreciated but as you can see now I have decided against getting the KN7000. If the KN7500 has an improved Vocal Harmonizer I may take you up on your offer if and when I get a KN7500, if your offer is still good.

It's nothing new Idarod...The Kn5,6, 6.5 ,7k all had terrible mic/vocalizer features. This is something Tercnics has never addressed from model to model.

Mike,
Just as Donny says, I would not hold out much hope of Technics rushing to improve the vocal harmoniser on the 7500.

I owned the kn5000, which to be fair did not have a harmoniser on board at all. You had to buy a seperate digitech unit. I always found the mic input on this board ok as it stood but then I am not a pro.

I then moved up to the 6000 and there was a built in harmoniser which was the most dreadful waste of space you can imagine. Real 'toy' stuff. Disgusting really to include it on a high end keyboard at all as it was totally useless even for home play. Anyone attempting to use it live would have been laughed out of the gig.

As a dedicated technics fan we all waited for the 6500 feeling sure that our loyalty would be rewarded and that technics would address this issue. Did they fiddlesticks. Same old same old. Then when the 7000 came out with exactly the same sh...... 'unit' on board I bought a 9000 pro and left technics behind. Do I regret it....not for a minute.

There was a lot to like about technics boards but if singing is your thing and you want decent onboard stuff then steer well clear of technics.
Very best to you
Tony W

Dave, it’s so very kind of you to share all your great knowledge and expertise with Mike. The poor boy might have spent all his money for something that is missing so many necessary features to make beautiful music. I only have one comment that I think you made that might lead the poor fellow to really be sad if he did not head your advice. Just think, Dave, if he decided to purchase the KN7000 he thought so much of, and then decided to purchase that overpriced hard drive made only for the KN7000 he really would have been mad at you for not telling him the truth. I really think you owe poor Mike an apology and set him straight before he goes off the deep end and really makes a bad blunder by buying that 7000. Don’t try to make old Mike feel that he might still be able to add a hard drive later if needed. After all, you tested the 7000 when it came out, evaluated it, and are respected for your expert opinions on this forum. Just come right out and tell him the 7000 has no hard drive. No hard drive is even made for the lousy thing, so how could you mislead him, or maybe you are just trying to be kind and soften the bad news about the new technics board he had his heart set on. The honest and knowledgeable person that I know you are, I prefer to believe the latter. I just felt it my duty to post this so Mike would not be misled if he made the big mistake of purchasing a new seven thousand. I see he has already thanked you for making the decision for him. I don’t see how, if as he stated he extensively checked out the 7 and had such a knowledgeable sales person helping him, that he could have been so deceived. Well maybe not deceived, could be that it’s his bad memory he speaks of, is his problem, because he already forgot how bad others told him the board was. So Mike, glad you did not make that bad purchasing mistake and you value the advice of others so much. Too bad you missed evaulating such important features you require, such as vocals and hard drive storage, in your extensive evaluation but I guess it’s understandable with your bad memory. And Dave, keep up the good work.

Grandpa Doug

Another thing I would have a question about: what would happen if you tried to playback midi sequences that were created at a higher clock rate than 96PPQ? Just wonderin'.

There is a review of the KN7000 in the new Sept. issue of Keyboard. They liked it overall but apparently they didn't try the vocal input or harmonizer. I still have a problem with a 61 note keyboard for that kind of money, even if it does display a slide show while playing music.

Ooops. Doug is right. The 7k has that Smart Media card, right? My Mistake. I was still thinking 6k.
Doug can rip you to shreds and still make it sound pretty, can't he?

Ouch! Grandpa, I thought I knew you a little better than I apparently do now. Do I sense a little causticity in your tirade? UD was only trying to help out and I did know about the SD Memory slot on the KN7000. That was one of the reasons I had my hopes set on it. But as I stated, I 'sing', or at least I try to sing; so a good Mic In/Mic Preamp/Vocal Harmonizer on the Keyboard is a must not only for my own enjoyment when I play it at home but also on the road. It seems to me Grandpa Doug that you and Dave have a longstanding feud betwixt the two of you and I'm not sure why. As Rodney King once said: "Can't we all just get along?" We share the same passion, ie., "Music", so it's not like we have opposing interests here. PS: Doug, I thought the KN7000 sounded wonderful too and if the KN7500 or 8000 does have a much improved Mic In and Vocalizer on it I will guarantee you I will seriously consider it again as a possible high end Arranger in my music gear arsenal. Best to you and Ruthie.

Mike

Mike,

Put your fingers on a PSR-2100 and you'll never look back. It's a great machine, has those built-in speakers, easy to navigate through the OS, does things that all the high-end boards do, and it performs those tasks quickly and effeciently. As a vocalist, you'll also appreciate the built in vocal processsor, which seems to have improved substantially over the one in the PSR-740. Right out of the box, no tuning or tinkering with voices or styles, the 2100 give you more bang for the buck than any other machine on the market.

Good Luck,

Gary

Mike,
I have NO fued with Doug. None at all. He is a wordsmith that I enjoy reading, and if I misquoted the detail about the hard drive, then I deserved the correction. That's just his glib way of saying.....

"Hey Smartass - you goofed"

I can take the shot. I gave you the wrong info on the hard drive. Everyone has little brain-farts from time to time, and people love to point them out here, because of the tremendous ammount of bravado that is slung !
I'm not insulted. In fact - I still think that Technics owners are the MOST loyal of all brands. Maybe it's because of the high prices they pay, maybe they just have better sales pitches, or maybe...just maybe - they really DO love their keyboards more than the other guys. I can't say. I don't love any keyboard at the moment.

So.....sorry about the SD memory...I was confused. Thanx for the defense, but there was no foul from where I stand !
We're OK, right Doug?

The microphone input on the KN7000 is fine and is every bit as good as any other top arrangers mic input. In fact its quieter than those on Yamaha arrangers including the XLR mic input on the 9000 Pro. Now the harmonizer functions that's another story. Its by no means entirely useless but its not what it should be to be called a harmonizer.

If you can truly "sing" and only need a high quality mic input to put your vocals through and mix them then the KN7000 will fill the bill. Now if you're like about 99% of people who think they can sing but truly can't, you may want to find an arranger with a great harmonizer to help you out and mask those vocals.

I find it silly that so many people want a keyboard that can make, bake, and slice bread for them and bitch when it can't. Whatever happened to the idea of having a keyboard that just sounds wonderful? For realism in sound and features that rival most keyboards out today, the KN7000 is well worth purchasing. Of course YMMV but I feel the KN7000 is a great keyboard and I'll take great sounds and features over a built in harmonizer function any day. After all its a keyboard meant to be played, not a vocal harmonizer. If you need a great vocal harmonizer buy an external device like a TC because it will rival those built into any arranger keyboard.

Ensnareyou,
All I can say is "AMEN". You said it all.

To make MUSIC, and have ease of operation for "LIVE" playing, the KN7000 is IT!

As for the Harmoniser, it really doesn't even belong in a keyboard.
Like they say, "If you want a car, buy a car, If you want a boat, buy a boat".
Don't buy a "car that floats!".
Just my thoughts,
Walt

Oh Mike, oh Mike. Dave and me get along real good, I mean we really do get along. He and I see eye to eye on many things. Never met old Unk, but sure would like to spend a day with him. I think we would have a ball together. I think if I brought old Ruthie along, he would experience a day he would never forget. It might even take three or four weeks before he would get his head screwed on right again. But we would have fun and you can bet on that! Mike, you know, Dave has a way of stating things that get some people all bent out of shape. But as we all know, Dave has a heart of gold and really means well. He has given much help here to many. Dave and me have a somewhat different way of stating ourselves and our thoughts but state them we do. We have completely different ways of presenting our God given gifts and have no reservations in doing so. I like his straightforwardness in his opinions. I admire him for that and love to read his comments. With his open-mindedness I don’t believe he takes to heart and dislikes me when I josh with him and do a little satire even sometimes at his expense. I’m sure Dave would tell me in no uncertain terms if he preferred me to quit. No Mike, Dave and I have no feud going as far as I know. My little ribbing him was intended to point out to you that everything you read is not always necessarily true. Many of the better performers and singers do not use the built in vocalizers in their boards many times but prefer the better quality of the more professional sounding dedicated ones. I believe Uncle Dave go’s that route when he presents himself to the public on his important engagements and uses the on board one in less exacting requirements, such as rest or nursing home type situations. At least that’s what I gather from past posts. Ruthie even says sometimes I get a little mixed up. But you young guys just keep in mind, I’m getting a little old and can be cut a little more slack because of it. How’s that for sneaking out when I get caught? As for you detecting a little causticity in my post, you are right. Not at Dave but the tenor of your post. After stating you had extensively checked it out and found no important fault that would hinder your playing, you challenged someone to find one. It just is hard for me to believe that you did not check out something that would be that important to you. Even harder for me to swallow is that you never remember the many many posts dealing with the vocalizer. The one that tops them all is your faint memory of Scotty’s incessant, never ending saying something about the KN’s terrible Vocal Harmonizer. I didn’t think there was a soul on this or any other forum that did not know the KN’s vocalizer sucked air, including me! Well Mike, the best to you also and I do hope your memory improves. Get a checkup. You might be on the verge of getting that big ‘A’ and that ain’t fun. Well at least not for the people around you.

Grandpa Doug

Ensnare you,

What if someone has a great voice and can sing greatly? Wouldn't a great harmonizer add more value to the whole mix?

However, I agree with you that buying a keyboard is not only based on the harmonizer function or even the mic input. A keyboard is a keyboard... although we cannot deny that some keyboards have good harmonizer.

LOL. The power of ryhme!!!

"Like they say, "If you want a car, buy a car, If you want a boat, buy a boat".
Don't buy a "car that floats!".
Just my thoughts"

nice one.

My sentiments exactly sk880user. What I use a Harmonizer for is for "Harmony" within the Mix, not to make my voice sound better. If I wanted pitch correction then I would get an external unit that does that. And, like you say, some Keyboards actually have pretty good Harmonizers built-in which makes for good "Harmony" within the mix as opposed to the terrible sounding vocalizer on the KN7000 which according to everybody (even Grandpa Doug) is useless. Doug, I don't know if you realize that your words are very demeaning and have an almost evil tone to them, almost like you get pleasure from putting people down and trying to hurt them by and in the things you say. I will leave it at that and hope to God you search your heart and soul and then see the light to cease and desist from doing it in the future. You know they say when a person is unhappy with themselves and life in general they sometimes see a need to make everyone around them as miserable as they are by the things they say and do.

Best regards,
Mike

You know just to give my 2 cents here.... To base the purchase of a keyboard like the kn7000 on whether or not the vocal input harmonies are decent is absurd. If it really matters to you- do yourself a favor and buy a dedicated vocal proccesing unit. Even the new pa1x has an "optional" Tc Helicon processor. You have to buy it seperately.
Buy the 7000 because of the Sound samples- The Ease of use, and the SD card capabilites.

Also- All this crap about 96ppq is dumb as well. If you can tell me the diff between a 95th note and a 96th note let me know.... I'll be sure to have whatever you're smoking.

Hi all,
I have to say that I would have had much more respect for Technics if they had just ditched the harmoniser full stop. I think they felt that they had to compete with yammies flagship at the time (9000) that included a harmoniser.

The offering was so woeful that maybe they should have marketed on exactly the view of many here that you buy a keyboard for the quality of sound and if you want extra's go buy them from people who make a living from making them.

However to include the harmoniser and advertise the keyboard as having a pro quality harmoniser on board was blatently untrue and as unforgiveable as the yammie flash update /2000 fiasco. At the end of the day it should do what it says on the tin!

Maybe we do expect too much from our boards but we should at least expect that they will do what the peep's who make them tell us they do....of course what they say while the money is in our hands often differs from what they say when we have given it to them.
Best to all
Tony W

Hi Uncle Dave,
no offence, but quite frankly who needs a hard drive, when you have an sd card for storage. ( plus the sd card records & plays mp3's) The prices of the sd cards have been dropping, just need to find the best place to buy a card.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
[B] Also, the hard drive is costly and specific to Technics.

If I had the money I would buy a 7000 tomorrow. The only things I don't like about it are the registration buttons - hard to find in a hurry and too easy to hit the wrong one - and no XG so I won't be able to make it sit up and beg like my 740. However, it has more than enough nice sounds and what's more it has touch reponse on all the organs, something Yamahas don't have (except for the el cheapo PSRs).

Bryan

Rikki,
It certainly seems like the SD is gaining respect in the memory world, but I wonder how large they will be made available? I have a 20 GB hard drive and it's almost full! How much does an SD card hold?

Dave, sorry to butt in seeing you are asking Rikki, the bear maker. Gee, I wonder if she could post a picture of her bear. Anyway Dave I just looked at the info window for the hard drive in my computer that I just upgraded about nine months ago. Has an eighty gig drive. Run my business on it. All the accounting, payroll, everything with all the archives, all the way back to 1986. Stores all my music stuff. Notation programs, sheet music, recordings, everything. Got all our personal stuff, games, records. even Ruthies recipes for her good German cooking. Even got a lot of them from my good old Navy days when I was a cook. My favorite, ‘S on a shingle’. Anyway Dave, just wondering. Unless my computer is lying to me it says I have less than twelve GB’s on the eighty GB hard drive. Better get a fire extinguisher and hang it on your keyboard. That thing must be hot with almost twenty gigs of stuff in it. If not hot, bloated to say the least. Man, what you got in it?

From the ever learning Grandpa Doug

No, no, no..... the hard drive is in my LAPTOP, and most of that is full of audio files. I have about 5000 MP3 trax that I use for DJ/break music. I am trying to see if the storage option will ever rival those numbers. My KB has a 6 GB drive and I'm sure there;s OODLES of room on it. Midi files are tiny.
S on a shingle 'eh?...Tasy stuff.

Hi there Grandpa Doug, couldn't resist , but you asked (haahaa) The little critters paid for my 3 keyboards.
best wishes
Rikki http://www.geocities.com/rikkisbears/gallery3

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Douglas Dean:
[B]Dave, sorry to butt in seeing you are asking Rikki, the bear maker. Gee, I wonder if she could post a picture of her bear.

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 08-24-2003).]

Well Uncle Dave,
I thought we were actually discussing Technic Hard drives when I made my comment on "who needs one, when you have an sd card".
Admittedly I'd need quite a few sd cards if I wanted to store 5000 mp3's on them, but I personally don't have the need for that amount of mp3's ( I don't perform, I'm only a nutty hobbyist).
There again, I suppose one way around it if I was a performer(why oh why, was I given the talent to make teddy bears instead of music (boohoo) would be to , just copy the mp3's I'd be likely to use for a performance to sdcard, pack up the trusty ol' kn7 along with the sd cards, leave the computer and any other keyboards I'd normally have to drag along at home.
As the kn plays mp3's, if I wanted to use backing tracks from other keyboards ( like my va7 or my ex 9000pro) I'd just record them as mp3's , save to sd card, heck, if I could sing I could even back my own vocals up and save as mp3 to sd card. I'd really only need the one keyboard on stage my trusty old kn7, capable of playing mp3's , mp3's in sync with sequencer files, sequencer files & midifiles. Boy, really makes me wish I was talented enough to perform ( haahaa)

Actually sounds like your beloved korgs maybe starting to go the same way (mp3's & memory cards?)

best wishes
Rikki