Just Back From NAMM

First, I spent some time today with AJ and my friends at Ketron. I loved the new SD5. It's buttons look more modern than the SD1 and the 16 little switches off to the left side over the lower keys is a great addition. These buttons can be set to be functions, GM track on and offs, individual drum on and offs and even quarter tone tuning buttons. I also loved that the 0 -9 buttons below the display which are also used to select style catagories can be used a Registration bank buttons. After selecting a bank, the 16 buttons I just talked about become registration numbers 1 -16. So, you can have 10 banks each with 16 choices, or if you wish, you can still have registrations called up the old Ketron way by just choosing 01 - 198.
The Riff mode, although only able to be auditioned on about 5 of the styles currently, really worked well. After playing approx. 2 measures of chord changes, you can stop playing the left hand, hit the riff button and start playing melody on the keys and the chords continue to play and as you play more notes, the riff mode kicks in and adds extra parts to the style and if you play less notes, it gets more active in it's style play. If you hit keys harder, things change as well.
I only hope Ketron listens to me and brings the price of this product out for quite a bit less than the estimated price was told to me today. They quoted a list price of around $2995.00 and I suggested it needs to be in the Yamaha PSR3000 price range. The keys feel great, they are semi weighted just like the SD1+, but still, the price needs to be adjusted in my opinion. We will have to wait and see.
The new styles are very good and the sounds are SD1+ quality. The 128 polyphony is a great improvement. This was the only new product.
AJ also showed me his EXP board which will now be available through the Ketron Distributor. I will be buying one of the 2 SD!+EXP keyboards from the show, so if any of my So. California customers want to come in next week and check it out, I'll be ready for you!

Korg had no new products in the arranger keyboards but they did however have a new software update for the PA1X models, version 2.53. Korg also had two new synth style keyboards called the X50 and the micro X. Both feature usb, triton sounds and software bundled with them to enable editing on a computer and for using the new sounds as a software synth with full control. The X50 has 61 full size keys and the Micro has 25 full size keys. Both are velocity sensitive.
Roland showed the new low end EXR model which will retail for $699.00. I was hoping for $299, but oh well!

Yamaha really did a great job of demoing the Tyros2. They had 2 of their design team hear from Japan giving demos and receiving ohs and ahs from those attending.

I especially like the new Yamaha DGX505 re-do which now has 88 hammer weighted keys and will be available in July. This model is called the YPG625.

Behringer came out with a digital piano in a wooden cabinet with stand and 3 pedals, 2 track sequencer, pull down cover and a MAP price of $499.00. The action is decent but not great, but for the price.....wow!

Casio only had a new 88 key portable piano with wooden stand, roll down cover, ZPI sound source, 3 pedals and the speakers built into the lower cross panel of the stand and can be mounted on the front or the back side for about $699.00. The action felt great! The model is called the PX-700.

The Roland G70 was being displayed and demo'd but I was there at the wrong time to get a demo. I'll be back on Sunday to ask questions.

I told Yamaha how much a 76 key model of Tyros 2 was needed and they agreed with me but made no promises. I also found out for those interested that the samples you load in or play into the Tyros can be made into user drum kits but not in the standard way but rather as a custom voice with different samples on different keys and then this custom voice can be used in a style but not on track 10 but rather on track 9 which is usually the percussion track.

I am no longer selling Generalmusic products at my store and didn't go to their booth this year.

With my back still recovering from back surgery last month, that's all I could see in one day. I'll report more after Sunday.

George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California


[This message has been edited by George Kaye (edited 01-24-2006).]

Hi George.
Your detective work is very much appreciated.

Speaking of Behringer, do you remember back to the last NAMM, where the new Ultratone keyboard amps were announced ...

The amps never became available (or on backorders or something liked that)

Do you know why they did not get into the hands of the public?

George, thanks for the SD5 review, sounds like an exciting board. That riff mode is interesting, although I'm not sure if I really 'get it'. The best I can see is for something like "Evil Ways"... do a few measures of Gm and C7 and then jam for as long as you want? Any hint on the status of Ketron's flagship replacement, a KB with Midjay components? Thanks again, George; now go rest your back.

Glenn

Hello George Kaye,
It seems that your first impression of the 88 hammer-weight replacement of the DGX is positive. Since you are a trusted person on the SZ arranger forum I think it's time I started saving my pennies for a new keyboard.
Of course, there are a lot of questions I'd like to ask regarding voices, styles, storage media and presence of a line output (I really hate my DGX for not having a line out).
I hope this matter will have been clear by the time this keyboard is available on the market.
I wish you fast recovery form the back surgery.

George V.

PP Please let me ask a quetion re Yamaha keyboards in general. Why there is so much time (6 mo) between the announcement of a keyboard and its market release?

Hi George,

Thanks for your quick review!

I would like to know if Yamaha displayed their next generation Clavinova series.
Their new CVP 4xx series is due this year that is supposed to carry the Super
Articulated voices of the Tyros 2.

Well I hope Yamaha release the T3 or whatever it will be called with 76 notes in around 3 years. If a 76 note T2 comes out later this year myself and loads of others will be totally p'd off with them. There's no way I would part exchange a T2 just to get the extra keys, even though I prefer 76 notes it would be too much to lose for us all. They should start supporting the people who have purchased a T2 already by bringing out new styles and features on the operating system updates and leave the 76 keyboard for next time.

Good report George. Stay well, and I'm looking forward to your next post.

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

76 keys is very important to many players it should of been addressed and offered long ago by Yamaha along with a better keybed too, how long will people tolerate their rquests until they stray to other companies?.....as far as more styles?
I think they have offered so many as it is to cover every application, heck I have 20,000 syles here alone, do I use most of them ? NO!! Do many of them stink? YES...plus you can convert thousands of other manufactures too..... plus you can edit exsisting ones & create your own NEW ones in style creator also, a great feature many people DONT EVEN USE!.....this whole style thing is so overblown. Too many people worry about different styles vs learning how to play better, that should take front row over all else in performing music.




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-21-2006).]

Thanks George, your report and input is appreciated as always.

Graham

As always George you have given an informative and detailed review of new NAMM products. Thank you so much for letting Yamaha know that there is a big percentage of Arranger players who would prefer a 76 key Tyros2. Keeping it in the forefront of their minds may finally persuade them to make a 76 key Tyros2/3. I can certainly wait three more years if necessary for a Tyros3 or whatever it will be called by then. A 76 key Tyros2 in six months would be nicer yet, but since Yamaha isn't giving any promises I am hesitant to hope for something as soon as six to nine months.

Btw, the people who bought a Tyros2 knew full well that it had only 61 keys when there was not even an inkling or hint of a 76 key Tyros2/3 on the horizon. And for that matter there is STILL no inkling or hint of a 76 Tyros2/3 by Yamaha's very own words at NAMM. To say that Yamaha is doing a disservice if they release a 76 key Tyros2 in a few months to those who bought the current 61 key Tyros2 is absurd. If you wanted 76 keys you should have bought 76 keys to begin with is how I look at it. I for one am holding out. I have a Tyros but I refuse to get a 61 key Tyros2/3. Others have said the same thing but relented. Is that Yamaha's fault?

Also if you would prefer a 76 key Tyros2/3 I'm sure you could sell your current Tyros2 on eBay or wherever for a minimal loss and then turn around and buy the forementioned 76 key Tyros2/3 if Yamaha decides to come out with one in six to nine months.

If indeed Yamaha decides to come out with a 76 key Tyros2/3/etc., at all.

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 01-21-2006).]

There's no way I would entertain Ebay since they take a nice fee for themselves then Paypal also get in on the act so I would definitely keep the Tyros 2.
The T2 is the first arranger I have ever purchased with 61 notes. Personally I would never entertain them normally as 76 notes has always been a must for me, but the sounds, styles and features were enough to make me think sod it and buy one. Within a few minutes my fingers had got accustomed to 61 notes anyway so I now don't even notice it having less keys when I play. With experience you can easily accomodate your playing style and adapt.
DNJ I've no need to learn how to play better I've been playing for 27 years and been a qualified music teacher for 17 years but I see where you are coming from with the styles. There are many poor quality ones on the market that's why I make my own up when I can and I also edit all of the internal sounds with the great software package Yamaha thrown in. I'll soon have 128 new sounds done so I'll possibly post them somehwere for the T2, then again I may set up shop and sell them lmao
What I meant by new T2 styles was that Yamaha promised to bring out 10 new ones every month from the release of the T2 and I have never seen any of these yet

George,

Thank you for the informative report - as usual, it was a pleasure to read. I appreciate it even more knowing that you have made your rounds with a sore back. Thanks again, and I will look forward to the next installment after Sunday.

A comment: as I was looking to add a keyboard to compliment my aging G1000, I was kind of looking foward to the new Ketron - although it only has 61 keys, it would be of interest to me, considering the built-in speakers and the support for the vocal harmonizer and the hard disk, along with the PSR3000 (unless there is a newer model by the time I am ready to buy). Judging by AJ's earlier posts, it was supposed to be priced right. However, at MSRP of $3000 it falls very close to the SD1 pricewise. While I don't know what the final price will be, this sounds very close to the Korg PA1x /pro and Roland G70, both of which sell for about $3500, and comparable to the older SD1, which I have seen advertised for listed $3000.




Craig, if the 76 keys were really that important, you should have put your money where your mouth was, and did not buy the T2. Since you did purchase it, it was not that important to you. So I hope that your whining does not deter Yamaha from addressing the needs of the others.

I would not buy a high-end instrument without 76 keys; however, I may entertain this idea for a secondary, more portable keyboard, with the built-in speakers. I hope that now that Yamaha has you on the hook, they will go after my business, and come up with a 76-key high-end board quickly, before I am forced to replace the G1000 with something else. The feature set of Tyros2 is really appealing to me, save for the short keyboard - I hope Yamaha is listening.

Regards,
Alex

Thanks for the report George.

I was a proponent of a new 76-note T2 also but having played my two 9000 Pro's for years now and with the gaining importance of the best possible piano sound and action in my life, I'm already past the point of waiting for a Tyros Pro. What I'd really like to see from Yamaha is a "QY-T2": a much-needed leap forward in the QY-series with Tyros 2 sounds and features. In fact, Yamaha is behind the curve in not having a new QY out based on the original Tyros... the Ketron MidJay looks like the leader is tabletop arrangers now and I hope to see it's popularity increase.

But it's an American synth that is really pointing the way forward in my mind: the Open Labs Miko. This is the affordable computer-based instrument that our own Frank L. Rosenthal has been waiting for ($2000 base price). Miko makes softsynths and programs like OMB more practical for stage use, not to mention monster programs like Reason, Ableton Live and more. You can max out a Miko with some heavy-duty computing power and stay under the price of the Tyros 2 while loading up sounds that can exceed the capability of any hardware synth made. And it's fully upgradeable in both hardware and software... it's nearly future-proof. I could see adding a hammer-action 88-note controller to the Miko and running Ivory with nearly unlimited accompaniment options. It looks like live light and video control are also possible with the Miko. The best thing about the Miko is that it has my wheels turning.

Esh, it is going to happen....affordable software based arranger/workstations. Plus you end up with a good control surface.

Craig thanx for the clarification I understand what you were saying now about teh styles.

Alex K if DNJ understood me then why the hell can't you?
It's the likes of you with the comments WHINING (when I wasn't anyway) that makes long time users of SZ go onto other forums.
Personally if Yamaha bring out a 76 key then good for them, I couldn't give a rats butt.
I was merely saying that it would be bad timing for everyone NOT just me who has already forked out our hard earned cash for a T2. I'm assuming you are not a T2 owner with the poor comments you chose to make.
It obviously didn't bother me having 61 notes otherwise my money would have stayed in my pocket. Perhaps you should buy a 61 note T2 now otherwise you are more than likely in for a long wait until the T2 replacement comes out (probably with 61 notes again if Yamaha doesn't listen to people wanting 76 lmao).
It's a good job I don't take things to heart on here, I'm getting used to sad comments and bickerings by now!

Craig,

I am quoting your original message so that there is not ambiguity here.



I have no objections to your contention that Yamaha should create more high-quality styles for their instruments (T2 and others), especially the ones which are equipped with the internet connection for supposedly exactly the purpose of downloading these styles.

However, your contention that Yamaha should "leave the 76 keyboard for the NEXT time" is what I find objectionable. I believe that the time for a professional version of the T2 is NOW, not 3 years from now, and do hope that Yamaha does listen to the concerns of people who REALLY need the 76 keys, and not the ones who say they need it, but in reality do not. Yamaha's (and others') position is exactly as you said - "With experience you can easily accomodate your playing style and adapt". By saying this you are doing a disservice to me and all others who want to see a 76-key version of T2 come to fruition. I am not telling you not to voice your opinion; however, you will have to forgive me for stating my disagreement.

I am sure if you re-read my posts, you will find that I substantiate my point of view. Reading my post carefully, you will also see that I am indeed not a T2 owner, exactly because it does not have 76 keys.

Yamaha brought out the 9000Pro a year after releasing the PSR9000. I hope they followo the suit and bring out the the T2Pro soon.

Regards,
Alex

The fact is that the 9000pro turned out to be a financial DISASTER for Yamaha. Before releasing Tyros2, Yamaha performed extensive marketing research to determine whether to release the followup to Tyros1 with 76 keys or not. I was told that their research results showed that their targeted market prefered the smaller portability (+ lighter weight) of 61 keys.

Here's my personal professional opinion regarding the 61 vs 76 key debate. I have to concur, that for traditional solo style keyboard playing, 76 keys is mandatory, and 88 preferable. Yet for strictly arranger style playing (especially split mode), 61 keys quite adequate, as with the split point set at F#2, this leaves 3-1/2 octaves of real estate for right hand playing, and only 1/2 octave less than the notes available from middle C to the top of not a 76, but 88 note keyboard, certainly adequate (imho) for most typical right hand soloing.

If Yamaha could squeeze 76 keys in the confines of it's current outside shell dimensions, I too am all for it, but I personally am not willing to sacrifice Tyros2 lightweight portability and smaller size for a larger case (shell) like the Roland G70 & Korg PA1XPro have, to fit 76 keys. On the other hand, Ketron's SD1 is a winner in this regard, making it the lightest weight & shortest length 76 note arranger available. Unfortunately, from what I've been told, because of their financial disaster with 9000pro, Yamaha Japan has NO PLANS to release a Tyros2 Pro with 76 keys.

On another note: I had a chance to watch & hear three terrific arranger keyboard players play the Tyros2 at NAMM the other day, and they all (Martin Harris, Mark Anderson, and Ken) got around that board just fine, showcasing their terrific keyboard chops, and on 61 keys . . . no problem.

As a traditional acoutic piano player myself, had to make some big adjustments when switching back & forth between piano & synth style keyboard. In addition to forfeiting 88 notes for 61, the key feel and even the size of the keys are different, and of course the PLAYING STYLE (technique) of auto accomp arranger playing is entirely different as well. Switching between an 88 note piano and any arranger requires approaching each with a different mindset. Once you're open to doing this, barriers will be broken, and new doors of playing opportunity become available.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 01-22-2006).]

Well each to their own Alex
I can remember having a VA7 then losing a considerable amount to upgrade to a VA76, I guess that's why I posted my initial message stating people would be p'd off as I was when Roland did that to us all.
If Yamaha bring out a 76 note T2 and I hope they do for the people who have not already got the T2 since it's more sales for them, I can see all the music shops rubbing their hands together thinking we are going to make loads of extra dosh from the people part exchanging their T2 back in.
Regardless of what they do I have now been converted to Yamaha and that's taken quite a few years I can tell you.

I'd just like to address the weight vs. 76 key issue for a second as brought up by Scott. I am a big advocate of a 76 key Tyros. I use two keyboards when I gig, a 76 key Korg Triton Extreme and a 61 key Tyros 2. With keyboards in the case, the Tyros 2 is the FAR heavier keyboard. Even considering the Korg is built like a tank with it's metal frame it's still lighter than the Tyros 2.

I really think the answer might be to use a controller with 76 keys and control surfaces with the Tyros 2.

Al

Scott: I couldn't disagree more about settling for 61 keys as an option for a pianist. There's too many times when I have to access both high and low ends of the piano at the same time and 61 keys just won't do it. But as I said in George Kaye's NAMM report, I am through waiting for Yamaha to produce a Tyros Pro or a portable version of their CLP series.

The real solution is for Yamaha to update the QY-series with the Tyros 2 sound engine/samples and create a top-notch tabletop arranger unit. This is especially true now that Yamaha is distributing the CME controllers, which would allow anyone to choose the size and weight of keyboard they need. I'd like to see a Yamaha "QY-T2" also be compatible with the PLG series of expansion cards for additional sounds and polyphony. But that's just wishing.

Hello Esh. I concur, that as a pianist, 61 keys definitely doesn't cut it! Then again, Tyros2 is marketed as a portable auto-accompaniment arranger workstation, not a piano. Yes, of course I would prefer having 76 keys (or 'better yet': 88) to accomodate traditional piano style playing, but for arranger playing, 61 keys adequate at least for me, affording a smaller package size. For those gigs which require solo piano playing, I'd prefer bringing a lightweight controler along, and having the ENTIRE 88 note piano keyboard range at my disposal, of which brings me to the following controller I checked out at NAMM:

M-Audio ProKeys 88SX

I felt the semi weighted keys nicely responsive, keyboard very lightweight & it comes with a nice collection of built in sounds as well, making it suitable (by itself) for 'solo piano' only gigs too. Currently, I'm using a Roland A-33 76 note controller for gigs which require traditional piano playing, so may eventually consider upgrading to the M-Audio 88sx.

Esh: I realize that we all have unique keyboard needs and requirements, as well as how much we're willing to compromise to get (as much as) everything we want, and I respect your decision of leaving Yamaha. I'm looking forward to your reports (in addition to Frank Rosenthal's) about softsynth style keyboard arranger alternatives like Open Labs Miko. I'm sure I too will be eventually going the soft synth arranger route as well, once rock solid software stability & reliability are assured. - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 01-23-2006).]

I'm curious about the new DGX-505, what new features does it have apart from the keyboard? Can it use more than one userstyle for instance?

Doc-Z

Hi Guys,

after talking to Scott several times I made the choice to go from the 76key 9000Pro to the 61key T2.

I must say that it did take a little time to adjust, but with the octave up and down button as well as agjusting my playing I'm quite happy

For most of us 61 keys is really sufficient, but I do agree with Esh: for piano style playing you need 76keys.
I guess there are not enough people out there anymore who use piano style playing on an arranger.

Of course we have to remember that the US market is only about 5% of worldwide sales.
The rest goes mostly to Europe.
As we all know by now their needs are quite different than ours.

Eric

I only looked at the new YPG625 for a few minutes at NAMM. The display looked the same to me as the DGX505. The button layout is different though. I do think it has the same 1 user style load functin but I'm not sure. The YPG625 has the GHS weighted piano keys and the YPG525 has the semi-weighted keys of the DGX505.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California