After working with teenagers....

.....This last year and a half has been so enlightening for me. I relate much of my experience with these kids to our discussions here with adults.
We tend to use exagerations, opinions and state percentages as if they were facts. We all tend to tout our strengths to others in one sided views that leave little room for error. Well, let me tell you .... I will be the first to admit that I have been misled and have made poor choices more than I care to remember.

With that said ... I'd like to try and start a discussion that relies on purely fact. NO opnions, no conjecture, no attitudes....pure, simple fact:
Such as:

The Yamaha psrS900 has 61 keys.
The Korg PA800 has a dual sequencer that can play MP3 files.
That sort of thing ...

It's just an excercise, and mostly for fun, but it may serve a purpose too. Maybe we all tend ( myself included )to speak (type) a little too quickly when our passion for our own gear is stirred up. I wonder how easy it would be if we actually tried to post an ENTIRE thread with only 100% factual, UNbiased answers. Tough task, huh?

Anyway ... just a lazy Saturday afternoon thought...but if you'd like to chime in, here's a suggested topic:

"What are some of the advantages and disadvantages between choosing to use styles, sequences or MP3 files?"

(it's a tough one to keep UNopionated, right? Try anyway!)

OK, I'll give it a shot...

Styles are often very generic and can be used for many different, yet similar songs. This can give one the ability to "fake" an arrangement with a minimal amount of work. A simple chord and lyric sheet can be the start of a very complex and intricate arrangement created on the fly.

Sequences allow the performer to use both hands to creates extra excitement to a recognizable arrangement. Adding a bit of one's own creative self to an already popular song arrangement can make an entirely new product out of a tried and ture rendition.

MP3 files, like sequences, allow for 2 hands to be free to accent the arrangemnt of a song. MP3 recordings also add the flexibility to pre-record additional parts that may be unavailable on stage....eg: live, harmonies from real singers, guitar solos, etc.

*** This is the kind of info that I feel many people would love from the collective experience of our members. Go for it !

Without getting into the cheating aspect, styles give you more latitude as far as strict timing is conscerned, and can be varied more by use of fills and variations. On the otherhand, the PA800 blurs this destinction with its easy use of markers. Sequences are unbeatable for certain song specific dance numbers, for example.

Who's to say what cheating is, or if in fact, you DO get "more" lattitude?
Just trying to see if we can say 100% fact with no opinion - it's HARD !
Maybe I read it wrong - Lawyers, English teachers?

With all due respect, Dave but isn't this your own opinion?

Ian

Yes...the topic choice is something I base on opinion, but I'd love to see the content be pure fact ! This is all about information, not personalities.
(you got me on a technicality !)

Clarification

I don't consider fully playing with either, cheating. I just meant I didn't want to go to that well worn topic.

I'm with YOU !

Uncle Dave,
I can remember the band days when someone was shouting or signaling chord changes to me or I was giving changes to the guitar or bass players. Then there were the acrobatics involved in getting the band to start and finish at exactly the same time and keep the tempo steady etc. I did my vocals and played my parts. And now with the arranger, I do my vocals and play my parts (and the sax or whatever lead/solo parts choose to, and I can sing a couple of parts as well). I’m still doing what I’ve always done but now I have the accompaniment that I choose, everything stops and starts when I choose, I get to choose the tunes and the keys, the rhythm doesn’t fluctuate and no hot shot guitar player has barfed in the van for at least 2 decades. With the arranger, I’m able to pay my bills and have a little over. My purist friends, who are by far better musicians than I will ever be, are also driving trucks, working on roofs etc. to make ends meet. With the arranger and a good sound system, I can compete - sound-wise - with DJ’s. I can remember when the big discussions were about how DJ’s were putting live and almost live performers out of business. The decent single acts, especially the completely self contained acts, continue to survive. I work harder than I ever did and I enjoy it more than I ever did. For anyone who thinks that using arranger tools is cheating and revolting, I suggest that you keep doing whatever makes you happy … I just bought a 2008 Toyota Sienna and I love making double payments.
Ciao,
Jerry

So true.

Dave, you mentioned MP3 in your suggested thread. Aside from break music, can you give me any justification for buying the player for the PA800, or in general ?

Hi Bernie,
I use the MP3 player to provide sequenceLIKE backings that I have created at home, and added backing cocals to. I made a Beach Boys Medley, for example that would be impossible to do live because the harmonies and the lead sing two distinct lines.
I also have a few comercial Karaoke tracks that I play over, that would be very difficult for me to reproduce with the arranger patterns. These are mostly horn section or guitar heavy songs.
I welcome any tool that allows me the freedom to express myself in song while I entertain an audience!

I love backing "cocals"..

I see. I gather that you pre-record your backing onto existing MP3's, which wouldn't leave much to do live. Or do you sing melody over the sequence ?

I do a lot of singing, and I too believe in any tools that enhance the final product. I use midi, but I didn't think MP3's could be manipulated enough to use. If so, it being audio, it has advantages like vocal backing.

Just trying to get into the 21st century.

Ooops ..... in my excitement, my mittens made the typing more difficult !

My backing files are minus the lead vocals as well as the piano parts. Some have guitar parts left out that I play live as well! My simple method is to use the arranger with the piano part muted and I sing harmonies with the lead voice turned way down or off ...depending on the effect I want. Listen to "Nightingale" here: www.boydsongs.com
That was recorded with RH piano, LH bass, drums (9k pro) and 3 part harmony. If I was to do that one live - I'd simply mute the piano, and fade down my lead vocals.

Hi UD
Thank you for your answers. What software is used to adjust tracks per above ? Also, you mentioned Karaoke tracks. Since the PA800 doesn't read CD&G files, what do you do with them ? Just ignore the lyric track ?

I'll quit pestering you. I just need a little advice on the feasability of using MP3's.

UD-Do you have something recorded on the PA800 that showcases your harmony?

zuki

I don't record with any software. I use a hard disk system and play the parts live into a mixer. In a sense, I am doing a live version of what i would play if I was backing up ME in a show. Does that make sense? What I mean is this:
I play the bass, drums and various acc parts while I sing the background voices....just as if I had a partner with me that would play the piano/lead and and sing the melody.
Zuki:
I haven't recorded the PA800 yet, but I plan too very soon. I understand that I can do it internally with the MP3 board...I'll see if I can read up on it.
Bernie:
You're not pestering me. I started this thread to provide solid information. Glad to help.

Thanks UD - interested in hearing arranger style playing while singing harmonies at the same time. Of course, I'll be trying the same with my PA800 next week.

Are you still enamored with the 800????

zuki

Zuki... I LOVE this thing !
I'll try to record my Mills Brothers Medley for you soon !

Cab Driver
You Always Hurt The One You Love
Across The Alley
Paper Doll
Opus One

All done with tasteful, four part harmony !

Awesome UD - hope you find time. I always like your work

Among the many things I've learned from Dave, Donny and Fran over the years is to utilize every tool at your disposal to entertain your audiences. I strictly adhere to this rule, and it has paid off with more jobs than I can handle. I guess I've said this a zillion times, but it bears repeating--this is the entertainment business and that's why we get paid to do what we do.

One of the neat things I recently discovered about a friends S-900 was the ability to record vocal backing tracks. What an incredible feature. You can record the vocal harmony track for a song such as "In The Still Of The Night" by the Five Satins, record the midi file, then provide the lead vocals and lead instrumentals live--WOW! And, it can all be saved on the USB drive in a registration. How things have progressed.

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Wow!! What a simple, but brilliant idea!! It's definitely one of those "damn,why didn't I think of that earlier!!!"....I have been toying with the idea of recording my midis to mp3's, but the only thing that stopped me was not getting the harmoniser working as there would be no midi file data to drive it..turn down the lead and then record...wonderful..
thanks dave ....mucho!!
cheers
dennis

PS: and with the sd1+ having a seperate vocal out (which includes harmoniser but no effects) I can then use some of my really excellent plug-in effects in Sonar for harmony vocal...




[This message has been edited by miden (edited 10-21-2007).]

Because I rarely, if ever, do vocals, this very cool feature of the S900 was missed altogether by me.

Works very slick and all easily done right on the keyboard.

Thanks for pointing it out, Gary.

Ian

Glad to be of help ! In my world, it's always been about the vocals. Not many people in my audience can play an instrument, but they ALL think they can sing. Words bring the message to the listener!

You did say, "NO opinions...no conjecture"


Ian

Sorry about the editing...I accidentally erased.




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-21-2007).]

Gary you were my best student......

I'm glad I was a part of your success of the KING OF BALTIMORE!!!

Ooops ! Damn...this IS hard. You're right...let me rephrase:

"I don't suppose that many in my audience are trained instrumentalists, but judging from the ammount of requests for Karaoke, there seems to be a greated number of those who would sing, if asked."

Whew...... that sounds like a crock !

Anyway ... it's teh details of the instruments that I was talking about when I asked for 100% fact. I wanted to avoid things like:
"better" drums
"poor" build quality
"sweeter" sounds etc ......

Sigh...

Yes, it is very hard to remain opinion free, isn't it?

You're a little closer, but still suppositional...hard habit to break, ain't it?

Sigh...nice try.

I agree there should be no "mine is better than yours".


Ian

There are several songs on the PSR Tutorial forum that have been recorded with the Yamaha harmonizer. They are truly amazing.
Here's a link to one of them. http://www.box.net/shared/sk7y804q2v
DonM