Need Recommendations re: Outboard Soundcard/Midi Interfaces (Firewire/USB)

Anyone here have an experience (and/or recommendations) re: OUTBOARD Audio Soundcard-Midi interface units like:

M-Audio: FireWire Audiophile

M-Audio: FireWire 410

M-Audio: Audiophile USB

I realize that outboard soundcard/midi interfaces can suffer slightly more latency than an internal PCI soundcard does, but the benefits include: flexibility for use on both a desktop & laptop PC, as well as less noise potentially entering the soundcard from a desktop PC's internal fans.

To offset potential latency problems, M-Audio outboard Audio Soundcard/Midi interface devices include a special 'direct monitoring' feature. Anyone have any experience using that or know how that works?

MY PC includes both USB 2.0 & Firewire ports. Which provides the best results in an external Audio Soundcard/Midi interface: Firewire or USB 2.0?

Thanks in advance for advice & recommendations.

Scott

Scott I have no idea about these cards, but usb seems to me a bit too unstable.
I am using usb for a lot of devices in my offices and these are by no means stable.

As you know(since 2000) I am using a delta 1010 with the 19" rack which is no option for a laptop due to the pci card which need to be built in.
The connection goes through a special cable between the pci card and the 19" rack.

The rack is controlled by an eight channel software mixer and has all the needed options for monitoring and in/output volume/mono/stereo controls for analoge and digital connections.
Works like a charm.
I suspect that the software mixer is a simular software mixer for the mentionned cards by you.

In the mentionned options by you I would go firewire in this stage or wait till the lan cards come out.

Fred

Hi Scott:
First you need to tell us how many inputs do you need, ( XLR,Phantom power, etc.) and how many tracks you need/want to record simultaneously....features that you may want...
I have for my needs, a Lexicon Omega (4 ins 1/4 inch and 2 XLR with phantom power, 2 outs, headphone out with separate control, etc.),I got it since it came out, over a year ago) audio/midi interface and works great !! before that, I did use a M-Audio Quatro...also without problems but with some limitations (no headphone output and separate volumen controls..), so, depends in what your needs are. Also, I would consider the Edirol intrefaces ( by Roland ). I hope it helps you.

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mdorantes

The first two choices seem good, also do not
rule out the Presonus Firebox.

Firewire is the best choice I think.
M-Audio products work fine and do not let you down.

My good friend Guillermo owns the USB version AP2496 and he has not had any problem.

BTW : Quillermo now is recovering from a VERY serious bacterial infection that almost became fatal. At this time he has not the energy to join the SZ forum.

Roel

Thanks for everyone's replies here.

Freddy, your Delta 1010 rack setup sounds mighty impressive, but I'm looking for a small footprint lightweight solution as well.

It definitely sounds like Firewire is the way to go, though I don't have a clear understanding WHY it's better than USB, as the transfer speed rate specs look (on paper) to be close to the same. Can you guys provide a reason (in addition to the reported stability issues) why firewire is preferred over usb for PC music recording production? Does Firewire offer more bandwidth and/or provide a better method of data transfer as well?

Manuel (Mdorantes): My recording needs are pretty simple, mostly needing only to record one audio track at a time (possibly 2 or 3 max) along with midi tracks recorded on the Yamaha Tyros. Probably 2-in and 4 outs would do, but having 4-ins and 4-6 outs would allow for growth & expansion. My budget is also limited to $400 (and less if possible). Manuel: does the Lexicon Omega include direct monitoring (with efx) with near zero latency, because I need to monitor both recorded tracks and track I'm recording (singing) live (along with hearing my vocal efx) as well.

Vquestor, the Presonus Firebox looks like another interesting option as well. Curious how the M-Audio FireWire 410, PreSonus Firebox, and the Lexicon Omega (with Lexicon efx processor) match up with each other. I do notice the Lexicon Omega is about $100 cheaper than the other two.

Roel, I'm Really sorry to hear that Quillermo (Willum) has taken ill, and hope he is feeling well soon. Please send him my best regards. In the meantime, thank you for informing me that Guillermo is using an AP2496. Problem is that I don't recognize that brand(?). Please provide the specific brand and model number it is.

I seem inclined to go with the M-Audio for it's low latency software monitoring & near zero latency hardware monitoring (with efx) features, and the "Firewire 410" in particular because it includes the added bonus of 2 phantom powered XLR mic direct inputs, and for the advantages of Firewire (wider bandwidth?). I had seriously considered getting another PCI soundcard for it's low latency potential, but figured an outboard unit affords quieter noise isolation from the internal PC fan(s) and flexibility to use with a laptop PC as well. If there are better features on the Lexicon Omega or Presonus Firebox to consider I'm certainly willing to take another look. Please advise. Thanks again for your input.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 05-19-2005).]

Scott:
The Lexicon Omega do not have Fx, but it does have direct monitoring, I do use my Omega in a very similar way (like yours), and records in 24 bits.....so far, I am Very happy with mine, I also recomend to add the FX to a dry track, I also own a Boss BR 1600 and in that one, you can record Dry but listening with FX with no bearing into the recorded track, of course this is a little more $$, and you should check its smaller sisters....the BR 1200 and the BR 900, all of them have USB ports that allow you to import-export your tracks and edit them into the PC and so on....the end result is Great !, this are a stand alone units. Regards.

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mdorantes

Scott,

Whats your price range? How many channels will you need?

Scott,

Check out Echo Audio's new FireWire Interfaces
http://www.echoaudio.com/Products/FireWire/

I currently own Layla 3G it is an excellent product. I have been using Echo products for the last 6 years, they suppor their equipment even after they are discontinued.

Skip USB 1.1, firewire and USB 2.0 are the
way to go. All things considered, I would choose firewire. Go here for some general info: http://www.studio-central.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=19%26sid=2b3ad3198b7fb21bfa68 b554c3674a06
If you ask Tweak, he is immensely helpful
and knowledgable.

Also check out the Roland FA-66 and FA-101

[This message has been edited by Vquestor (edited 05-19-2005).]

Hi Phil,

Price Range: Under $400 MAX
Channels: minimum 4 ins - 6 outs, and ability to record & monitor my vocal + efx while listening to pre-recorded tracks, all with near zero (imperceptible) latency.
Most important is a quiet soundcard which reproduces accurate superior quality sound and supports midi as well. Looking for the best balance of sound quality, reliability, and price value. - Scott

Harosha & VQuestor: Thanks for adding other possibilities to the pot. All these options are quickly making the decision more difficult. Also curious which of the units mentioned include an 'efx send-return' monitoring feature, which affords the ability to monitor vocals with added efx when recording? Btw, I was recommended that when recording a vocal track, that the vocal efx be recorded on a SEPARATE track to provide post production flexibility of being able to use another vocal efx later if so desired. Curious how you would setup the soundcard i/o device for this type of recording scenerio.

Scott

Scott

Scott,
AP2496 stands for "AudioPhile 2496"

Scott,

I use the M-Audio Audiophile 2496 USB with a laptop.

Although the latency is very low even when recording whilst listening to playback at the highest rate I am a little unhappy with the quality of the result. The overall impression is of a compressed sound that is very slightly distorted!

This may be just me but I have tried everything to improve the quality even upgrading cables and getting the latest ASIO2 drivers.

Unless you only have a laptop I wouldn't use outboard again - I would get a PCI card instead.

Regards - Keith

[This message has been edited by KFingers (edited 05-20-2005).]

Hi Scott ,

The other product worth mentioning is the Edirol UA20. Recommended by Apple.

Dan O'

From the choices you give I'd go for the Firewire 410. Deffinitely go for Firewire - more stability and more bandwidth.

If you insist on USB, you can get the M-Audio OmniStudio for $189. For that you'll get 4 ins and 4 outs. This is what I have and I'm happy with it, but if I was purchasing now, I would certainly go Firewire.

I wouldn't do anything less than 4 ins. This will allow you to simultaneously record your stereo Tyros, plus your vocal and a guitar onto 4 different tracks. You can later tweak and add effects. Very cool.

In addition on the 410, unlike your first choice, you get 2 preamps with phantom power. A must if you want the warmth and power of a condensor mic.

The 410 would double up as a great recording soundcard to be used with any recording software.

Chony

[This message has been edited by chony (edited 05-20-2005).]

Hi Scott,

I'm presently using a Tascam US-122 usb sound card with midi in/out. I have it connected to my Sony Vaio laptop and have my Tyros setup on bottom with either a Trinity V3 or Wavestation EX on top. I also have a fully expanded Fantom XR module sitting underneath my laptop. All of this is connected through a Midisport 4X4 interface. I have the stereo outs from both keyboards and the XR module feeding into the inputs on my D1600 along with the audio outs of the US-122. I then have the stereo master outs of the D1600 connected to the input on the US-122. This allows me to use either the D1600 for recording or I can feed everything through and record in Sonar 4 or Adobe Audition or anything else. It also allows me to use softsyths and record not only internally but also, if I want, to the D1600. I have a latency of 5.8 ms which I find to be unnoticeable. It all works very well and is quite stable. The US-122 cost $199 and Tascam includes a copy of Cubase LE and GigaStudio 3 LE with the interface.

However, I do use firewire for my two 250 gig external HDs, one is a backup archive drive and the other is my working sample, etc. drive. Here firewire is better because it has a higher throughput than usb 2.0 even though the "spec" on the usb 2 is higher. Somewhere down the line when firewire 800 gets common, I'll probably switch my sound card over to that, but in the meantime I'm having no problems with my present setup...well, except for some operator error here and there.

Tom

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Bigger is not always better

BTW, they don't recommend using a FW interface together with a FW harddisk, unless you have them on separate buses. Using them on the same bus apparantly squezzes the bandwidth. I would suspect you'd have the same problem using them both on a USB bus as well.

If you can up your budget a bit you can kill two birds with one stone. The Mackie 12 channel Onyx board has fantastic live sound. It also has an optional firewire interface that will record all the channels to a computer (free software included) to a computer. The board does the analog/digital conversion so it should be cleaner.
I have the board (but not the firewire interface yet) and absolutely love it. As a reference, Linkin Park's Mike Shinoda also uses it and raves about its sound: http://mackie.com/artists/index.html?id=405&y=2004

The Mixer for sale w/ reviews: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=102/g=live/s=mixers/search/detail/base_pid/634267/
The Interface for sale: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=102/g=live/s=mixers/search/detail/base_pid/634269/

The mixer promo/info at Mackie's site:
http://mackie.com/products/onyx1220/

Your best bet is right here http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41784&item=7324755524&rd=1

Or a little "cheaper" http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41784&item=7324719404&rd=1

They both appear to pnly have 2 outs though. Im in your same shoes looking for an 8+ channel PCI or firewire console. On my budget its pretty tricky!

Phil

If you want an 8 channel PCI, go for the Maudio 1010LT

With regard to Pennywizz6's recommendation of the Lexicon Omega--make sure you check out the reviews at
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=102/g=rec/product/reviews/base_pid=245505/rpp=10/

Lots of very positive feedback. I have the Mbox with Protools, a similar unit that costs more but has only 2 simultaneous inputs. (I believe the Omega allows 4 simultaneously.) The Lexicon version wasn't available when I bought mine or I probably would have gotten it instead. The Lexicon seems more like an all-in-one package as opposed to Protools, which forces you to buy expensive plug-ins to get good quality. I am not all happy with the effects and compression that come standard with the Mbox. While I do not have the Lexicon Omega, I can tell you that based on my experience with my PCM 80 and 90 reverb and delay units, Lexicon makes the absolute best digital reverb and delay on the market.
Hopefully there is someone out there who has experience with the Omega who can fill in my blanks.
Good luck.
(The reason I initially recommended the Mackie w Firewire option is that I have a problem with the latency built in to almost every computer based recording solution when adding tracks to something already partially recorded. I still like that option, although you can't go back and change anything--it forces you to get it right in a single take--but I have never beaten the live sound I get off my Mackie Onyx board in my studio.)

Ok guys, finally made a decision & just purchased a 'Presonus Firebox':
http://www.presonus.com/firebox.html

from my local music store and all I can say is that from the get go, I'm super impressed with it's quick plug/play setup (5 mins) out of the box, and above all, it's super impressive clean transparent sound, and quiet operation.

I was able to compare (side by side) at the music store, the Presonus Firebox, along with the M-Audio FireWire 410 and Lexicon Omega. My salesperson told me that though he was impressed with the USB driven Lexicon, he recommended (and others here have also stated) that I go firewire as it's a more reliable format, especially for this type of application.

Comparing the Presonus Firebox with the M-Audio Firewire 410, I thought the FireWire 410's to be rather cheaply made compared to the Presonus Firebox, which, in constrast, is very solidly contructed, whose control knobs include many finite click position points to allow you to fine tune & memorize prescise knob position settings. The M-Audio FireWire 410's knobs in contrast felt wobbly and overall buid cheaply put together. The Presonus also maintains a very small footprint. At $325, offered me, I couldn't turn it down.

Haven't had a chance to do any serious recording with it yet, but CD music playback thru my PC sounds nothing less than stellar. I've now gone & changed my PC's default soundcard device playback to the Presonus Firebox. I never knew my computer playback of CDs/Mp3's could sound so clean. I'm looking forward now to doing some recording with it.

I'm currently running Sonar 3 Studio version. Do you guys think it's worth the money to UPGRADE to Sonar 4 studio ($79 upgrade sale till 5/30) or Sonar 4 Pro version, which includes Lexicon Pantheon efx package + other goodies like individual per track efx processing ($229)?

The Presonus supports both ASIO & WMD drivers so trying to figure out which way to go: ASIO or WMD. Recommendations?

The Presonus also comes bundled with Cubase LE 1.07 so wondering how that compares to Sonar. It seems the more toys purchased, the more options (and subsequent confusion) there is. Recommendations regarding prefered audio/midi recording software programs is appreciated.

I've also heard that Wavelab and/or SoundForge are highly recommended for tweaking the final audio track. Which one do you guys recommend, if any?

Sorry for so many questions, but that's what this forum is for, right?

Scott

Scott, I think you would be well advised to upgrade to Sonar 4 PE; I did and I think it is very, very good. Also, I recommend you first try using WDM drivers because they are lower latency than the Asio ones, but the Asio are close, besides, that is what Cakewalk recommends .

Tom

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Bigger is not always better

[This message has been edited by Tomcat (edited 05-25-2005).]

Scott,
This one looks realy nice ! (like the Digidesign 001, but more compact)

I never heard of this brand, so please keep us informed about the performance.

Roel

AFAIK, the main feature of the Producer
edition is surround sound. I have seen it
demonstrated, and it was very impressive to
hear an instrument moved around the room using a USB game joystick.
I prefer ASIO, and find it hard to believe that WDM drivers would have lower latency than ASIO.
But try both and let us know.

Tom, though a bit pricier than I would have prefered ($229), I went ahead & took your advice & upgraded to Sonar4 Producer edition instead of upgrading to Sonar 4 Studio edition ($79), in particular for Producer's inclusion of more & better efx processing and tweaking features, Producer's unique patented (POW-R) enhanced dithering algorithm feature making dithering from 24 to 16 bit CD better at preserving the sound quality of the 24/96 original, as well as per channel EQ, only available in the Producer version.

I also realize that Cakewalk supports both WDM & ASIO drivers, though they tend to encourage using WDM as they especially tailored Sonar to work well with it. I'll probably end up testing out both and make my final determination after gleaming the results.

As far as the 'surround sound' effects included with the Lexicon Pantheon reverb feature, I doubt I'll have much use for it as I'm not into 5:1 audio video. Still, the Producer version of Sonar includes both: the Sonitus FX suite & the full of the Lexicon Pantheon Reverb library, of which includes a lot more stereo efx choices than than the LE (light version) included with Sonar Studio. Here's a listing of the Producer exclusive features:
http://cakewalk.com/products/SONAR/producer.asp

Scott


[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 05-26-2005).]

Not sure whether this is an appropriate forum to ask this - but I would like to know whether the Presonus firebox has a default routing for when it isn't connected to a computer. I want the option of using it as a portable Mic pre/spdif converter to feed an optical spdif input (at 44.1k - that could be the other issue - it maybe defaults to 96).
My greatest hope is that the routing/sample rate/other stuff is stored in some sort of NVRam on the device so it just remembers the last settings the computer set.
So, Scottyee, if you wouldn't mind very much reporting back, I'd greatly appreciate the info.

Great posts and info. I caught on a little late. I can tell you that I have both an Audiophile 2496 ( internal , non USB ) and a USB Quattro, both made by Midiman, supposedly using the same chipset, and the Quattro's output is never quite as good as the 2496 on the same files.

I'm going with firewire next time too. Here is another thing. Every USB cable I have seems to pickup noise and RF. I notice this mainly on the Yamaha Motif ES6. When I midi it to the comp using traditional midi cables, almost no noise floor. When I midi to the comp using USB cables, I pick up noise, and a significant amount at that
( -65 to -70 db ).

I love this computer based stuff, but I also realize that their are weaknesses simply because most apps and Windows based protocols are not setup with high end audio in mind. I'm soooo tempted to go with a Mac for my next comp, but I'd have to sacrifice a few of my favorite apps if I do.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 06-01-2005).]

AJ, get yourself a mini mac and put 1 gig of ram in it (do it yourself; don't pay the big A's absurd price for it). That way you can find out if it will work for you for a reasonable amount of money and then if it works you can go out and spend that fortune to get into Mac's.

Personally I'm not willing to give up my PC only software just to have a Mac that's going to cost me a LOT more and then restrict my software options and cost me a LOT to replace it to boot.

Tom

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Bigger is not always better

Yep, I agree... it's a lot of money. On the other hand, a good friend uses Mac in his studio. He went from Mac to PC and then back and couldn't be happier. No more of the Windows associated bugs and crashes.

I'd still keep my Windows Laptop, which has the added benefit of allowing me to still run the softsynths that have no Mac counterparts. My host apps all come with MAC versions, so no big deal there.


Money isn't my primary concern, but I don't want to waste it either. My primary concern is switching all the apps I've acquired to the Mac platform.


The more I think of it though, instead I think it might be best for me to get a Hardware DAW for Recording. I can think of a few reasons I like the Mac platform better than PC, but at the end of the day, neither was designed with just Audio work in mind.


AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 06-01-2005).]

Well, in that case I highly recommend you take a close look at the Korg D series digital recorders. I have a D1600 and it has 8 inputs and will record 8 tracks at once in 16 bit and 4 tracks at once in 24 bit. It will also playback 16 tracks in 16 bit and 8 tracks in 24 bit. They are solid, stable units and in addition there is a GREAT forum at www.korgstudios.com where there are some very friendly and very, very knowledgeable people very willing to help with any problem you might have. Also, the learning curve is not very steep. The current price for a D1600 MKII is about $1050 usd.

Tom

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Bigger is not always better

Thanks Tom. The Korg D series is a top consideration. I worked with one a few years ago and for me it was a pretty intuitive piece of gear.

AJ

Scott, who is your dealer? I notice that you manage to get everything way below the regular price...

Chony, the manager of one of my local music stores just happens to be a LONGTIME personal friend (from our college days together at music school). Not only does he consistantly offer me the best prices, but he also shares with me (confidentially) the actual dealer 'wholesale price' paid by him as well. This type of openess (rare in this business) insures me I'm getting the best (fair-honest) deal possible. - Scott

AJ, the noise you get with the USB cables...is it your laptop that you use with the USB?

If so try using a two prong adapter before plugging it into the wall receptical...
I found this did the trick with noise on my Laptop..

My USB cables give off noise. I don't know what to do about it. My speakers and mixers pick up these alien like sounds (not ground noise) from USB and it drives me nuts!

The Usb cable goes to my PC ( or at least it did when I was having the trouble ).

AJ

You're very lucky. I normally manage to get the best prices in town, but I've discovered that you always manage to do even better. Now I understand... The great thing about your situation is that you can upgrade once a year by selling your old equipment at no loss!

Chony, as an avid reader here yourself, you too should now be aptly armed to negotiate the best deal possible on music equipment. A savy buyer must comparison shop (via both local & online dealers) and can often negotiate a 'lower price' when a dealer is willing to undercut the competitor's price. The best deal can be had by becoming informed as possible about the product, it's 's features, and dealer's pricing-markup structure, and in-store service policies . Fortunately, with the advent of the internet, and specifically: our Synthzone arranger keyboard forum, we the consumer have become much more informed savy buyers. - Scott

On another note to explain my case. One week ago, I upgraded from "Sonar 3 Studio" to "Sonar 4 Professional" paying Cakewalk's listed upgrade price of $229.00. Before ordering, I asked the Cakewalk sales rep if there might be an UPGRADE special being offered in the near future as upgrading from "Sonar 3 Studio" to "Sonar 4 Studio" was currently on sale for only $79. He advised me that no SALES promotion was planned so I went ahead and paid $229.00. Subsequently, when checking Cakewalk's site yesterday, I noticed that Cakewalk is now offering the "Sonar 3 Studio" to "Sonar 4 Proffessional" upgrade for $179 ($50 less than what I paid just a week before). After calling Cakewalk to complain about this sudden change in pricing, though they refused to offer me a refund of the difference, they agree to apply a $50 credit to any future Cakewalk product purchase. I opted to receive (free) Cakewalk's: Loops of Hazard: http://store.yahoo.com/cakewalkdirect2/loopofhazfor.html

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 06-06-2005).]