I'm sick of these BABY key s already !

This psr2100 is such a chore to play. I keep reaching for notes that SHOULD be there and finding the cracks instead. When I play bass lines (as I did all night tonight with a live drummer)I can't be watching my hands - I have people to watch. I guess if you trigger chords you can adjust, but I need to play full sized keys again. I'm so disapointed. I need STANDARD keys please !!!!
Looks like I need to sell/trade Tyros and a 2100. Now...what the heck will I get instead? Anyone want to swap a kn7k for the Tyros?

why dont you buy a controller?

He's got a point Dave. You can buy a 61 Key Controller that will have your required full size Keys and their not that expensive. Then get a 2 or three tier Keyboard Stand and you're in like Flint. Or are we just confusing you with the facts. Make sure your Controller has "2" sets of Midi In's/Out's so if you do use that "3" tier Keyboard Stand you'll be able to control both the Ty and PSR 2100 together.

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 10-11-2003).]

Extra baggage? Naw....
There is no need in my world to carry an extra keyboard just for keys. I need an all in one unit that has sounds, rhythms and speakers. The 2100 is not "so great" that I need to use it with something else...in fact the ONLY reason that I bought it it because it's "ok" enough to use alone.
My stack days are WAY over. One kb, one stand .... boom. Ready to play.

As for the saying "in like flint".....
I was always under the impression that is was a reference to Eroll Flynn.....
who died IN the throws of passion. So, is it
"In like Flynn" .... or " In like Flint" ??
Hmmmmmmm ......... Anyone know for sure?

Naw! He was talking about Harvey Flint, who at age 108 was shot in the back of the head by an irate husband of a 19-year old nympho, while trying to escape from a second story bedroom window!

As for keys, maybe you just need skinny fingers. I don't think that utopian keyboard really exists yet. In fact, I suspect that you'll probably have to build it from scratch to get exactly what you want--the keys of a KN7000, the OS of the Tyros and all those voices, plus speakers. Yep, you're gonna' have to build it from scratch.

Good Luck,

Gary

I hope the new KORG 61 note w/speakers PAX comes soon ...Dave neds a new Toy FAST!!

I don't know what UD was responding to, but the Movie was "In Like Flint" as in the following review excerpt.

1965's Our Man Flint introduced the world to superspy Derek Flint, the man so smooth he made James Bond look like a hillbilly. Art connoisseur, karate expert, scientist, ladies' man and master of disguise, Flint was Bond to the nth degree. Flint worked for ZOWIE, a supersecret agency where he seemed to be the only secret agent on the payroll. Of course, when you have Flint, you don't really need anyone else. The sequel "In Like Flint," revealed men's fears of both beauty parlors and world domination by women, leaving us to wonder if someone had turned our secret meeting's minutes into a screenplay.

Who's talking utopia? I just want the NORMAL, STANDARD piano keys that PIANO players learned to play on. Sheesh .... is that too much to ask from a manufacturer? Make 'em the RIGHT size.

Dave, I AGREE!!! I even think you should start threads on SVPForum and the PSR Tutorial Forum. Maybe someone from Yamaha will see and react. If I want a mini keyboard, I can buy one. FULL SIZE KEYS ON ALL FULL SIZE KEYBOARDS !!!

What is the acual size difference between the baby keys and the pro keys?

Yeah ! What Cass said !
BTW - I notice from your profile that you're a rascals fan. Very cool ! Love that sound.

Yea! Dino Dinelli Rocks!!

Hello

I was just thinking this over and you know because of my line of work which is music retail selling and teaching, I find it interesting that this is a big issue. If there is a slight difference in key size it has never made any difference in my playing. I don't play walking bass in the left hand, but I can tell you my right hand can go all over the place when I want it to, a bunch more than any bass part would require. So, with this as my backround, I would imagine I probably have played more keyboards of all sizes than most people.

Then I started thinking about the students I teach, and I began wondering if their most common fault is happening here. They tend to play with their fingers only touching the white keys, which means unless you are looking, you have no clue where you really are. I have seen exceptional pros play this way, but I have found for most people, if one slightly touches the sides of the black keys while they are playing you have in a sense "landmarks" to know exactly where you are without looking.

I remember seeing a guy playing an accordian many years ago on either the Ed Sullivan show or Ted Macks Origianl Amatuer Hour. Of course the keys on a lot of accordians are exta skinny. I am not sure what the case was with this guy, but, he was playing, and he really had chops, the audience loved it, and then half way through his act the keyboard on his accordian was covered with cloth, which to the audience they thought, hey he can't see the keys. Well he played brilliantly with this cloth over the keys. He really had his fingers flying. Of course the answer here is he had his fingers touching the black keys to keep his bearing. I think this is the way he played with or without this cloth.

Depending if I am playing a single note line or playing a chord that is spread out more or less dictates if I am just touching the very ends of the black keys or if I am at or past the halfway mark while playing full chords.

So, Uncle Dave and all those that seem to have an issue here, I have to ask, are your fingers only touching the white part of the keys or are you slightly touching the sides of the black keys?

I am very interested in hearing your answers. Because in most cases, I would bet you a cookie, you are on the white keys only and that's why this becomes an issue for a player.

Best
Scott Langholff

Uncle Dave, do you want some cheese with that whine?

Al

Uncle Dave: I was pretty SHOCKED to discover you recently purchased a Tyros (as well as a PSR2100) especially considering all the trashing you had given the Tyros here, as well as the fact that you had also already owned a PSR2000 and had been so disatisfied with its flimsy keyboard build & feel.

As a child taking piano lessons, I played a Baldwin spinet piano at home. My piano teacher had a Steinway Grand with much heavier & slightly larger keys, so it was initially frustrating to seemingly play my songs well on the spinet, yet sound miserable when attempting to play that same song for my teacher on her Steinway. I bitterly complained to her about this, but over time (thanks to her persistance), I was able to develop the keyboard playing 'adaptability skills' required to adjust to playing on different makes & model acoustic pianos, each with a different keyboard feel. Later, when I began playing organs & synth-action keyboards, this frustration reappeared as I had to re-educate myself (yet again) to adapt now to non-weighted action keys in addition to their slightly smaller key dimension as well. I'm grateful now that I took the time to develop the patience & persistence required to develop keyboard playing 'adapability skills' because I enjoy playing BOTH my Steinway acoustic grand & Tyros, as well as the PSR2000.

Good luck in whatever keyboard you end up deciding on and (hopefully) keeping.

Scott

Uncle Dave, why a KN7000????...I heard one in a choir the other day and the sounds were horrible....now, it could have been the tweaking, or the sound system in the church...but for the most part, all the sounds were incredibly thin...tinny....the acoustic piano was one of the worst I've heard..How bout that 9000 Pro cmon.... 61 keys for a pro like you???? say it isn't so....go back to the Pro....It's calling your name...

Uncle Dave
I went from playing organ to full sized accordion, it took
some getting used to.
Then sold every thing, later on got a MID sized accordion
for a little bit of nothing just to keep up with playing music,
talk about a change in size of key's !!!!!!!!!!!
But I made the grade, played that little thing for years,
then went to Technics KN5000 no problem, then went to the
9000 Pro still no problem.
I'm not as good as you, but I can't blame it on
the size of the key's.
Good luck with your search.
Maybe the Korg PAX-1 will be the one, let us know.
Denny

9k pro: on stage..No Speakers = No Dave!

PSR9000?

In my opinion, the problem here is not to tell Uncle Dave:
Dave, learn to play both size keys!

The problem is:

Why Yamaha (and not Roland, Korg, Technics) make and sell keyboards with no standard size of keys?

I know Yamaha may say: I make keyboards as I want.

Buy, then, if so, why Yamaha don't write in all its keyboards, and in a great type letter, this sentence:
ATTENTION: THIS KEYBOARD HASN'T STANDARD SIZE KEYS! ??

Please read the following (Jan 2003) thread :
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/005528.html

YamahaUS answers more or less the Tyros has standard size keys..... and I disagreed very much.

I too had problems with the toy-ish keys as I was 'feeling' the Tyros.

Perhaps you should give the SD1 another try Dave ? The key-feel is perfect and with the latest OS a keyboardist HAS to love her

Roel

Maybe we are misinterpreting Dave's mood and taking a real love problem for a technical problem And he's just refusing love in his life

My own experience looks a lot like Scott's. I have a piano background and I prefered the module X4 to the X1 ONLY because of the key feel, and had two controllers in the past. One fully weighted 88 keys Fatar and a semi-weighted Kurzweil 76. I sold the first (although the size and feel were fantastic - no practical use) and am using less and less the combination Kurzweil+X4 in favor of the Tyros. I am accepting and adapting well to 61 synth weighted keys. I even prefer now the synth keys to play certain sounds (accordion, flute, guitars, all synthy sounds, etc).

-- José.

I never had any trouble swapping from my grand piano to the 740 and back again. There's a difference of around half an inch over five octaves. Feels just the same to me apart from the bungy action on the PSR. Maybe that's UD's problem - the crappy action on the PSR. The keys are a one piece plastic molding, fixed at one end, and relying on the natural springiness of the plastic. Talk about cheap.

Bryan

Hi José Glad to hear you're enjoying the Tyros. You and I indeed seem to be sharing a lot in common as I too used to need to utilize a fully weighted keyboard controller (Fatar 1176) + Roland RA800 arranger, but have since learned to adapt (quite happily) to the synth action & MUCH lighter weight of the mere 27 lb 61 note Tyros. If the BEST quality sound & styles housed in a light weight & compact package is important to you (as it is for me), then the Yamaha Tyros 'fits the bill' perfectly and well worth the short adjustment time possibly required (if at all) to adapt to playing its almost imperceivably narrower keys. Another plus to the Tyros solution is NO more backaches !

Hi Bryan: In addition to it's improved sounds & styles, The BIG advantage of the Yamaha Tyros over the PSR2000/2100 & 740 keyboards is that it's keyboard action is solid and responsive and doesn't feel spongy & flimsy like my PSR2000. I feel I'm able to play with a lot more musical expression on the Tyros than the later, so prefer performing with it than the 2000, even though the 2000 does have built in speakers. - Scott

I'm with UD on this one, but with a nod to what Scott says too. Although I can tell a difference in key size immediately when going from the PA80 to the Motif ES, I can adjust back and forth with no problem. What makes it bad for me on the 2000 / 740 etc is the flimsy key feel.

I just can't get the right feel for my solos and even some of my rythym work on such flimsy keys, and it definitely affects my expressiveness. I've owned and played on all kinds of boards and really all were ok and I was able to adjust to most of them with no difficulty.. that was until I had the 530 / 740 / 2000.

I can easily play the Tyros and adjust with no problem, but the key feel is a good bit sturdier on the Tyros. I'd have gotten a Tyros instead of an ES if it were more practical for me ( it sounds great ) .. I could live without the speakers ( though I don't want to ). Lack of plug in capability and powerful editing features along with a few other things kept me from spending the bucks on it though.

I dunno UD.. maybe the kn7k for now, then by the time you're tired of it maybe the PA1x will be out and you can play with that one for a bit...

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 10-12-2003).]

Boys, boys, boys ..... calm down. This is ME you're talking about remember? I am well aware of the ups and downs of all the major toys on the market, and although I do adjust (somewhat) to the smaller size keys on the Yamaha (sorry Steve, they ARE smaller) I still have trouble playing from the heart when I get "into" the music.

The arranger style of playing was never my thing. Sure, I USE arrangements, but not in the maner that most of you do. I rarely play melody lines with the right hand. I ALWAYS fill up the sound with my own right hand chords to make the arrangement my own design. Most times, I play bass lines, but if I DO use the auto-guys, the left hand sound is ALWAYS silent to give me more room to fill up the sound with chording. I don't like a cluttered sound, and my left hand is mostly "at home" playing bass (not chords)so I play pretty aggresivly with the left hand. Not just triggering a chord a measure and waiting for the next thing to happen.

As for my Tyros purchase - I only did it as a financial move. I had a dissatisfied Tyros customer that wanted my PA80 because of the superior SMF playback, so I swapped. The Tyros is new and more marketable in the streets than a 2 year old PA80. It was just good business sense. I never intended to keep it too long. Anyone want it?

My love life? How DARE you even go there.
I have no comment except to say this: Any mention of "love" in my posts is referring to a bond between muself and an INSTRUMENT. My private life is, just that at the moment.

The kn7000 - It has a great sound system, and a better than average sound set. Sure there are things I don't like, but if I can set up a Rhodes and a bass .... I can get happy right quick. The drums are weaker than the piano, I think. I kinda liked the piano, but was less imopressed with the drums.
I carry a mixer and vocalizer, so I'm covered there as well. It's just a tool - I can adjust to weak sounds before I adjust to abnormal keys.

I just want to be comfortable PLAYING the keys. I can't be distracted by constantly hitting the cracks, or trying to get "feeling" that isn't there from a flimsy action.
I want more.
I need more.
I will GET more ...... someday.

The 2100 has a lot of stuff going for it, but not from a piano players point of view. It is, and always will be - AN ARRANGER first. Well, sue me, but I don't want an arranger.
I want a pro keyboard that HAS AN ARRANGER in it. My old days with separate pieces are looking pretty good, in retrospect.
Moog for bass, Rhodes for chords, and Yamaha drum machine (or SR16) Sounded awesome...juyt took up too much space and time to set up. In those days - I set up for MONTHS at a time in the same location. No more. It's all one night stands now. Got to travel light.

I've had 'em all, and I want the comfort zone back. This wave of plastic junk is dragging us all downwards, and we don't even realize it till it's too late. My piano chops are definatly slipping since playing the Yamaha stuff. It's a crime. I have developed certain muscle tone and hand positions that are second nature, and now Yamaha is telling me that "It's all in my mind. The keys are NORMAL."
No thanx Yamaha .... they are NOT NORMAL - they are SMALL, skinny and pretty much lifeless (on the 2100 sreies, anyway).

Whew.....that sounded angry. It wasn't meant that way. I just have to call it as I see it. No holding back where my craft is concerned. I'm serious about this business, and I need someone to make a serious kb that is meant to be played by PIANO players that are trained on full sized keys. Teachers ask that their students practice on them - we should DEMAND that we get full size, STANDARD keys in a pro instrument.

I don't want to REadjust. I want to play the piano fingerings that I practiced. The same fingerings that work flawlessly (on a GOOD night) on Roland, Casio, Korg, Farfisa, Ketron and Technics gear.

Whick reminds me....SD1 ? - Silent slab. Sorry. No can do. In my world, speakers are NOT an option.

There- that's enough whine for tonight. My flimsy, skinny keys made my rent money tonight, so all things considered ......
It wasn't a bad day's work. I just wish the comfort zone was back. My bass chops are going to slip if I have to conform to this new "standard" of lessness.

I've posted before that I've never had a problem adjusting to any size of keys (be they full size, Yamaha slightly shrunk, or Casio CZ101 mini) but I've never really analysed how I did it.

This was noticed some years back by a music-teacher relative who commented that I never look at the keys. This may not be totally true but certainly its impossible to sing and look, so I play a fair amount blind. In fact if there are big distractions / idiots on the dance floor I even close my eyes for a while!

So my thanks are due to Scott, who has nailed the reason. I am indeed a black key feeler. I've never noticed it before but thats exactly whats happening.

You learn something every day....

UD. Having spent the past 7 days with the New Korg PA1XPro 76 keys, you are going to love these keys. If the 61 key version is half as good it will still be better than the keys on the Tyros.

Graham

My 2cents......

Honestly The keys on most Arranger KB's out today and I've played many don't hinder my playing at all, [I'm running a 2k on stage for now] I just adjust to whatever I need to with my style of playing.
Good on Board Speakers and .....
Real Time Navagation is my pet peeve....but thats anoher Topic.
Some Day [sigh]

Quote: Anyone want to swap a kn7k for the Tyros?
Davie, are you going sport fishing again? Suckers are fun to catch even if they are not very good for much else.

Grandpa Doug

Hi Gang.

just some comments on key feel from a rank amature hobbyist who can't play for a hill of beans. I bought quite a few organs over the years and finally bought a Yamaha US-1. I loved the instrument but noticed I couldn't play it as well as the Conn it replaced. It honestly never dawned on me the the keys were smaller but I just put it off to old age and lack of practice. I then get a PSR2000 and the problem is even more pronunced and it was becasue these keys are the same size as the US-1 but feel Horrible.
Next I pick up a bargin on a Genesys which has a great keyboard feel and really big big sound, perfect board except for one tiny little problem it weighs a ton. Well my significant other wants us to practice together (she plays the drums) so I move the Genny out of my office into the loft. She practices more then I so its very hard to practice alone(goof off is more like it)So I get a little nutty and buy a KN7000 for the office. Well that has a nice key feel and same size keys as the Genny. Good keys make a difference in my humble opinion.

As far as the sound quallity on the KN7000 it certainly is better to my ears then the PSR 2000 was and I do like most of the styles better. THe sampled organs are to die for, the Drawbars are a decent for the most part and superior to the PSR 2000's. I don't know about the Tyros I've never tried one. Navagation is where the Yamaha seems to have a real edge and they do sound good I have to guess each high end arranger has it weakness and strengths. If I were good enough to play out (I'm not) I would probably use the Genesys.

I will be in Florida when they will be having the Ketron keyboard workshop so I may just pop in to a take a listen. I will leave my American Express behind.

Jerry

Uncle Dave,

How much you want for the Tyros?

is it in good condition?

Thanks

Yamaha Pianos (acoustic and digital including all 88 note weighted actions) are 165mm to the octave.
The Tyros and all PSR keyboards are 160mm to the octave.
That's 5 mm/octave.
Thats .4mm per key.

Dave: I know they're smaller than some of the competition, but my position is, there are more units (by various manufacturers) out there with 160 mm /octave in the non weighted or synth weighted actions than then tere are 165 mm/octave. Yamaha made the decision to go with this standard a long, long time ago. Get used to it, if you can. It won't be changing.


------------------
Steve Deming
Assistant Manager
Customer Support Dept.
Pro Audio & Combo Division
Yamaha Corporation of America
YCASupport@yamaha.com
714.522.9000

[This message has been edited by YamahaUS1 (edited 10-13-2003).]

Steve,

What about Motif-es 61keys? Does it have the same size keys as the Tyros?

Steve,
Your contributions here are very valuable to us all, and I hope you didn't take any of my recent rantings as a personal attack on you. I just won't compromise playing technique, and that's what your company is asking me to do.
More power to the users that can re-learn their muscle tone, but I am too set in my ways and refuse to scale down my fingering positions for a kb that I only like "somewhat" at best. If I loved everything else about it, and thought I would be able to keep it for a few years (years??? ... ha!)I might consider it, but there is no doubt in my mind that I am shopping at the present time. To date, NO one is making what I want....at any price, so the search continues.

Thanx Steve for all you do, but this one is out of your hands, and doesn't FIT in mine !

$2350, and it's perfect. New a month ago - full warrentee from GC.(through me, of course)

Aw C'mon Doug ..... don't call me a sucker just cause I'm willing to trade down to a kn7000!

I already know that the drums are a big disapointment, and we all heard my points on the mic input, but I can learn to live with disapointment as long as I have the right size keys to play.
I only need a minimal ammount of voices, and good, solid rhythm patterns to get me through the night. The rest of the smoke and mirrors come from Midi files, MP3s and people skills. The kb is way down on the list of importance when it comes to showmanship.
( I know you mean well...... )

UDave. Forgettin' the Tyros & 2100's minutely narrower (.4 mm) key width dimension & the PSR2100's cheesy feeling action, I'm still perplexed why you had even thought a Yamaha arranger (again) might work for you, especially since (as I recall) your prefered style of playing is playing walking bass lines with your left hand (in split mode) while triggering the auto accompaniment with your right hand. Am I right on this? The fact of the matter is that Yamaha arrangers (9000pro, Tyros, and PSR2100 alike) don't support doing this. On Yamaha arranger keyboards, auto accompaniment chords (in split mode) can only be triggered from 'left' of the split point. Thus, only 'drums only' accompaniment is possible when playing left hand bass lines with auto accomp (ACMP) turned off. This setup is essentially no better than playing a along to a drum machine.

Scott

hi steve,it,s nice to know you are here ,yamaha seem to be stubborn on this key size issue, and i think the reason is,that yamaha target the younger player, early teens(smaller hands),yamaha are the market leaders,what i don,t understand is why do they produce so many models ,mike

Aw forget it! This one has already went way too far. I'm going to take a couple aspirins, open a fresh bottle of Kickapoo Joy Juice and turn on the news.

Cheers,

Gary

Scott,
I hardly ever played right hand auto acc, even when it WAS available. If I am playing bass.....the only other thing I need is piano and drums. The arranger is used from the left hand when I need it.
The only reason for the switch was economics. These are the popular, new models and I know I can sell them if people see me using them. The PA80 is 2 years old already, and has an upgraded unit on the table .... wouldn't YOU trade it for a Tyros?

Hi all,
I'm glad I don't play well enough for the small differance in key size to bother me.
In fact I did not notice the key size at all untill your post. I play a PSR 2100 stacked over a Roland VK7 and a Yamaha SY85 on my right hand side. I have no problem with key size at all. That may be from years of playing guitar and mandolin, each having a different scale neck and differant tunings. At 65 I don't think i'll let it bother me now. Just how I see it.
Have a good all, Smokey

Donny and Dave and all - a little late, but better than not. I have an autographed copy of Felix Cavalieri's LIVE CD. I even got to talk with him for a few minutes the summer of 2002. What a thrill.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 10-13-2003).]

Yes,

Same size





------------------
Steve Deming
Assistant Manager
Customer Support Dept.
Pro Audio & Combo Division
Yamaha Corporation of America
YCASupport@yamaha.com
714.522.9000

Mike,
It's not that Yamaha is stubborn. We continue with what works (If it ain't broke..., don't fix it). Along the same lines, our product offerings are based on what sells(based on what our customers bought last year).

------------------
Steve Deming
Assistant Manager
Customer Support Dept.
Pro Audio & Combo Division
Yamaha Corporation of America
YCASupport@yamaha.com
714.522.9000

[This message has been edited by YamahaUS1 (edited 10-13-2003).]

Steve,

Thank you for taking the time to answer this question. I have owned several Yamaha keyboards over the years. The last one, which I still have, is PSR740.

Unlike many people here, I never trade or sell my keyboards. I keep using them until they die.

After researching the Key size of various Keyboards further I found some interesting things out. The Korg Triton Studio's apparently have gone back to the same size Keys as most of Yamaha's are. The Korg Triton Classic has the slightly larger Keys and also of note is that the Triton Le series has the slightly larger Key size. It makes a person wonder why Korg decided to put smaller Keys on the Studios. As I've stated before the Korg PA80 has the 'larger' Key size and when I played it it really felt better, ie., "more room to lay the chops down" which translates into ease of use, better flow and easier chord progression and melody notes without worrying so much as to where the fingers will land and of course lessening the possibility of possible clams especially when fingering within the black Key area. It's too bad that with Yamaha you have to buy an 88 note Keyboard to get the benefit of the larger Key size. Their 88 note Graded Hammer Action Keyboards have the larger Key size as compared to the Motif ES7, Tyros, PSR 9000Pro, etc. Korg makes the larger size Keys in Keyboards other than their 88 note Keyboards, eg., Korg PA80, etc. I'm still befuddled as to why they decided on the smaller Key size for the Triton Studio. As I've mentioned before; were not talking Ivory here. If Yamaha or Korg would give the larger size Keys in "ALL" of their Keyboards -(even if they have to charge a little more because of Manufacturing costs) I believe the overwhelming majority of Keyboard players would thank them profusely and their volume of sales would increase IMO. Certain Keyboardist's will shy away from purchasing Keyboards with the smaller size Keys even if the Keyboard is a top of the line product and has won numerous accolades from the Music Media. So Yamaha and Korg "and all the rest of them" could gain from it if they make the Key size a 'true' full size Key, ie., like the Korg PA80 has. Which will translate into - (no more Keyboardist's shying away from the Brand that has the smaller Keys), because they will ALL have the larger Key size. > Don't I wish.

PS: I think Yamaha is subconsiously doing it because they're thinking of our health. Just think about it - slim fingers translates into a 'slim' body, ie., physically fit "lean mass" - no obesity and no fat fingers. So their probably doing us a favor by keeping the Keys smaller so it makes us Yamaha Keyboard owners more health consious and helps to limit our calorie intake because if we don't we would get fat fingers and if the fingers are fat more than likely everything else is too; and if our fingers are fat we wouldn't be able to play our beloved Yamaha Keyboards as accurately as we ought to. That's it! They're really thinking about our health. That's why the Keys are smaller!

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 10-13-2003).]

It is as simple as this:
Yamaha make smaller keys.
Why? Why???
Steve don't give reasons for it. He only say: "Yamaha has been making these keys all life".
Well, but WHYYYYYY?
If smaller keys have some advantages, why Yamaha make pianos with normal, nor small, keys?. It is a contradiction, IMHO.
If smaller keys have advantages, why other manufacturers don't make smaller keys?
I think to make a lot of keyboards for children is not a reason. Panasonic, Roland, Casio make too cheaper keyboards for children, and have normal keys.


[This message has been edited by Bluebird (edited 10-14-2003).]

I have this sinking feeling that when it comes to UD, DNJ and Fran we are into buying low and selling high. It is for this very reason we need Robin Hood.

Well, I think Steve made pretty clear: they sell. That's all. If all the world decided to dislike smaller keys, Yamaha would change their standard size for PSR keyboards, you can bet on it. Very simple.

Sure I appreciate a good full size set of keys (when I bought the Tyros I had the opportunity to test how better the 9000 Pro or the Ketron SD1 both felt in my hands), but for its purpose (my own amusement and some musical jobs) an arranger keyboard with the Yamaha standard key size is completely acceptable for me, especialy taking in consideration that in the final compromise, the weight is very important. The only real disadvantage is to adapt to a pure piano playing technique (which is not the main specialty of these keyboards). But for that specific purpose, I will look for a real piano or for the best hammer simulation mechanism I can find.

-- José.

matias,

The reason they sell is because they're at the top of list when it comes to 'sound quality' and functionality. And the price point is usually at or better than the competition. That is why they sell, period.

If Yamaha made Keyboards with 'true' full size Keys yet didn't provide what I stated above, you can be sure that most Keyboardists' would look elsewhere for their Keyboard needs.

And if other Manufacturers had the 'quality sounds' and functionality as we see in Yamaha Keyboards at a good price point, ie., "at or below the competition", and HAD Full size Keys you can bet that nearly "ALL" people shopping for a Keyboard would buy from those Manufacturers. Because they get the benefit of not only 'quality sounds' and functionality but also 'true' Full size Keys.

People are willing to put up with smaller Keys if they get a Board with quality sounds and functionality at a price that is usually below the competition. So even though Yamaha has the smaller Keys other Brands don't sell as well as Yamaha's because - though the other Brands have 'true' Full size keys they don't necessarily have the 'quality sounds' and functionality (ease of use) and at a better price point than the competition, ie., (Yamaha) does. But you can be sure that if the other Manufacturers had all the ingredients I listed AND Full size Keys they - "Keyboardists" - would unequivocally buy those Boards.

Maybe why Yamaha is able to offer Keyboards at a better price point is because they save money by making them with 'smaller' Keys? Yes, I am being sarcastic because we all know that the Keys aren't made of ivory anymore so making the Keys a little larger adds little if ANY cost to the cost of Manufacturing them.

Best regards,
Mike

I find it intriguing that a small number of individuals claim they can actually feel the difference of 4/10-MM. What I find equally amusing is they claim it hampers their playing ability.

To put things in perspective, I guess these individuals can only drive vehicles with certain size steering wheels, gas pedals, brake pedals, windsheilds, doors, etc. Oh contraire! They don't have a problem with cars--only keyboard keys.

Amazingly, I personally know a few of the best piano players in the nation, musicians who have performed with the best of the best big-band orchestras, and when I posed the question to each and every one of them (three to be exact) they all said the same thing. "Either you can play or you can't play." Even though all three had played various keyboards from time to time, they said they were unaware of a difference in size. As for the feel, they agreed that keyboard keys, overall, are lighter, which by the way, they perferred over piano keys because it required less effort to get the same level of sound. As I said earlier "Fuhgedaboudit." I just hope that Yamaha continues to make these incredible keyboards in the same manner they've been making them. without Yamaha, many of us would have a lot of trouble making a living in this business. Not only have they provided us with the greatest voices in the industry, they have also continously upgraded their models to where most of us are astonished when we hear the styles and voices coming out of the speakers. For me personally, the key size is just fine, and larger or smaller would not make a bit of difference in my ability to perform. As one of the piano players, and the owner of a major music store put it "If key size poses a problem to your performances, you should probably think seriously about taking up golf--they'll custom build golf clubs for anyone who wants to pay the price."

Cheers,

Gary

"they'll custom build golf clubs for anyone who wants to pay the price."
... and I'm the one who can build them for you!
DonM

Well, I come from very interesting perspective. I actually grew up, musically, on 61-keys Yamaha keyboards. When I tried playing other keyboards and the piano, I felt that they are the one that are wrong and Yamaha was right. Now of course I like the piano feel of the real piano, but when I play PSR740, I cannot tell the difference, at least not consciously. I believe both give you different experience of playing. Maybe it is related to Scottyee point of view that one can adapt mentally to switch between various keyboard sizes. Maybe I should email my music teacher in college and ask if this matters at all.

By the way, there is an intellectual depth to this discussion. Let us enjoy it.

The difference over an entire octave is the main issue. As a LH bass player, octaves are played quite regularly, and when your hand is stretched to the proper distance after years and years of training, and you miss the target note ... it leads to frustration, bad sound and lack of concentration.
All bad things in performance.

It's not a minor difference ...
It's a huge diference. Sometimes it's the difference between a wrong note and a right one. It's one thing to rest your hand down in a chord position every 4 or 5 beats with plenty of time to switch to the next chord, but it's entirelly different when you are playing manual, complex lines with the left hand and full, multi-note chord patterns with the right (almost like a counterpoint lesson)....and missing your mark because the notes that SHOULD be there .... are 1/8 of an inch a way.
Makes me nuts.
Almost as much as the misuse of your/you're.

Does anyone know if the Motif ES 8 has the larger keys or are they the same as the MO ES 6&7?

Steve?

Thanks
Al

Hi Mike,

Unless a survey in conducted, we will never know if there are more Yamaha users like Uncle, mad with those baby keys, right?

I agree with you, the sales success of a keyboard reflects a combination of many factors and features (and sounds & styles are indeed a strong point for Yamaha). It's the final compromise that is under judgment by potencial costumers, and not a particular feature. As long as they sell, Yamaha is not going to question their old choice for the key size.

Gary, I have another Yamaha keyboard at home, a DGX300, and while its price is around 1/5 of the price of the Tyros, it has full size keys (however, I slighly prefer the way keys react to pressure on the Tyros). Believe it or not, the difference is visually noticeable (not only the size but also the shape) and when played in a piano style, with both hands, I can perfectly tell the difference. When I play these keyboards as arrangers are usually played, demading less hand skills, either I hardly tell the difference or I unconsciously quickly adapt to both shapes/sizes. So, in this point, I'm quite in peace with Yamaha.

I think Uncle Dave toke my first post on the subject too seriously, althought I abundantly used smileys Absolutely no intention to comment on your "love life", Dave. I thought that the key size was just an excuse for you to get rid of the Tyros

-- José.

[This message has been edited by matias (edited 10-14-2003).]

I have to tell you Gary, I take issue with your inferences here. That's pretty snobbish I think. I'm one of those guys you refer to, but more the issue is the key feel to me than the size. If that troubles you, so be it.. but I don't think I need you to tell me that you think I should take up golf or something. Maybe if you had ever seen or heard me play, and you wanted to add that comment.... but.. I don't think so..

So far in the past 30+ years noone has told me that though.. including some very talnted and demanding studio musicians I've worked with.

I'm not the best player on earth I'm sure, and I continue to l;earn every day and hopefully as long as I live. That said, in all honesty, I haven't met too many players that I think are that far ahead of me either. I can play any keyboard you put in front of me whether it be an acoustic grand or a PSr2000, and be proficient on it. But, I don't prefer to use an instrument that I feel hinders my performance. At times I play some very intense solos and intricate rythyms, and I want something that doesn't feel like a wet sponge under my fingers when I play. Much like my guitarist, who prefers certain strings and guitar feels to other's. He can play everything from Robin Trower hard edged style blues to just about anything DiMeola and John McLaughlin / Mahavishnu have ever released. I doubt I would be telling him to take up golf if he told me he didn't like something about the feel of his guitar or the strings...

AJ

The truth has finally come out. Gary really does work for Yamaha. His Gigs are just something on the side to divert attention from his true line of work.

Love ya Gar! It's nice to know we have the freedom to express our thoughts even though they may be wrong.

Best regards,
Mike

Whoa! Hold your horses AJ. If you read that post again, it doesn't say that I said someone should take up golf. This was a quote from someone else, a person who many consider among the best piano players in the nation--not me. Don't shoot the messenger!

When it comes to playing ability and musical skill levels, I don't have to worry about a thing. I'm well below most everyone on this and other forums when it comes to pure musical talent, and I'm the first to admit it. I'm just an entertainer that uses a keyboard, and most of the time, make a good living with the instrument and my voice. Uncle Dave, Donny, yourself and lots of other folks can play a lot better than I will ever be able to play. And to be perfectly honest, I think that's a good thing because I am constantly learning from those who are more proficient with the keys than myself. The only reason I don't take up golf is I'm a lousy golfer as well.

I believe the point that was made is that for the vast majority of people, myself included, the relatively small difference in key size is irrelevant and has little or no impact on our various skill levels, just as the difference in cars has little or no bearing on our driving ability. Yes, I'm more comforatble in a Lincoln Town Car, but I just as happy when driving my 15-year-old van.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary,

Ok point taken, and sorry ( truly ) for jumpimg at you, but no matter who that is coming from, even if it's a player whose light years ahead of me ( and I'm guessing that he may be and that there are plenty of players out there that are "light years " ahead of me ) , it's still snobbish. Let me put it to you a different way. If this guy is that much better than me, I still wouldn't want to try learning anything from him, if that's his attitude.

Back to the main topic. now.. Would the keys on the 2000 prevent me from feeling comfortable enough to play out live, if most of what I'm doing is playing contemporary hits ? Not that uncomfortable that I wouldn't play the 2k, but I still like my stiffer keys better. Would key feel like the 2k's bother me if I were trying to recreate piano songs done by a Keith Jarrett or Chick Corea ? ( Not that Im woulod want to attempt that on a 5 octave board anyway ) Yes, probably enough that I would leave the thing home. It's all relative I guess..

AJ

Al,

Yes the Motif8 and MoES8 have the piano size keys.

I don't think anyone is trying to be snobbish or stubborn about this issue, we just have different perspectives and opinions.

Why did Yamaha decide (decades ago) to go with this size keys on the ElecTone organs, and subsequently the PortaTone keyboards? I don't know. I probably never will.

If I could persuade the design group that we would sell 1000 more of each model by going to piano sized keys, they would probably start retooling tomorrow. But I don't think it's true, so I won't be very persuasive.

I'm not stubborn (well maybe a little), convince me.

------------------
Steve Deming
Assistant Manager
Customer Support Dept.
Pro Audio & Combo Division
Yamaha Corporation of America
YCASupport@yamaha.com
714.522.9000

Jose: On first reading, I agreed with you, but after reading UD's response a second time, I now see his humor (minus the smilyies ). I believe the bond Dave Boyd was referring to was not to his keyboard, but to his own 'private' instrument, and THAT certainly best REMAIN private.

Scott

Sorry Steve but Al was asking a comparison between the Motif ES8 and the Motif ES 6/7.

Al, the Motif ES8 has the 'larger' Key size, ie., the "width" is larger than the Motif ES 6/7. Again; I don't understand why Yamaha has to put smaller Keys on their Synth weighted Keyboards. The weighted Hammer Action Keyboards take precedence for some unknown reason. I think if they didn't put the larger Keys on the 88 Key Hammer Action models they would probably get into hot water with the Piano Manufacturing Industry. If they could get away with it I think they might make "ALL" their Keyboards with the smaller Keys IMO. Thank God for checks and balances within the industry. A small stature race of people like the "Japanese" have to start thinking 'outside' the box IMO. Quit the feudal overlord mentality that won't accept 'Western' ideas or ways of thinking and the fact that there are other people on this earth that require some things in 'larger' more "proportionate" sizes. That's it!; - put other people's priorities and interests above their own. A new thought you may ask? Nah, it's been around for a least 2 thousand years.

Best regards,
Mike

hi steve,whether you agree or not ,at least you are listening,mike (idatrod) ,brought up an important point on this issue and that was if you are playing chords with the left hand example C7,quite often the adjoining black keys Gb and Ab press down with the G and so giving a dischord ,your last post says that you put full size keys on 2 of your keyboards,why not put full size keys on your TOP ARRANGER KEYBOARDS ONLY,you are already using these larger keys so the cost would not be a problem,look at the benefits,a lot of people will be spending more money by choosing a top of the range board rather than settling for a yamaha mediocre board,for example when i first bought my psr2000 ,initially i was going to buy a 9000pro,but on talking to a couple of dealers i realized that for half the price i was getting a lot more than half of the quality about ,3\4 (my choice),,maybe a lot of people felt the same way,,,one thing i do know is this,,yamaha produce excellent boards,and if you make your top of the range boards the BEST IN ALL FIELDS ,you will always stay on top providing your prices stay competetive,just my 2 pence worth,mike

You guys need to get a life...really....
keys??? 50+ posts???? alas...a taste of what mere mortal forums are like

Well, here's one more. . .
Tonight my friend Dean and I played a nursing home Octoberfest. He normally plays a Korg or Ensoniq keyboard but tonight he went off and left his "wall wart" power supply for the Korg at home. He only plays piano sounds (plus live fiddle) when we play together, so we borrowed a PSR2000 from my other friend, Hank. Everything sounded great and went great.
On the trip home I asked how he liked the Yamaha. Dean commented that the keys were too small and that he kept hitting the cracks and hitting two notes at once.
He does not read this forum (doesn't have a computer) and I had never mentioned this subject to him.
I thought it was pretty ironic that he noticed the difference. I supposed having played pianos, Korgs, etc., for 40-some years, and never having played a Yamaha much he could FEEL the difference.
He did remark that the key size would keep him from considering buying a Yamaha, although he didn't mind the touch and loved the sounds.
DonM

Let's modify Gary's (my true buddy)anagogy with the car, but instead of the steering wheel..... lets say that Ford decided to put the brake pedal more to the left than usual. That's more in line with the way I see it.
You reach for the pedal to stop the car, and "oops" you need to check first, and make sure your foot is in the new position. By that time it's too late.

This actually is a very important issue, and I'm sorry Steve, I can't promise that more people will buy your kb's with better keys, but I CAN promise that I WILL buy (and promote) more of them if you do.

Maybe this is one big reason that more pros seem to look down on arrangers in general. They play one for 15 seconds...fell uneasy and cheated and make a snap decision that the rest of the instrument must be substandard as well.
Full size should mean FULL SIZE. End of story. I don't care if you sell a trillion at the smaller size ... you'll sell the SAME ammount to those buyers and you'll probably pick up a whole lot more pros in the process.
Think about it. Why DON'T you see Tyros on MTV?

Uncle Dave, not only will you probably not see a Tyros on MTV, but I doubt you'll see any other arranger type keyboard (even with the larger keys) used in this type performance venue either. The reason is because they're 'arrangers', not because of the key size, as I've already spotted a 61 note Yamaha Motif6 (with PSR sized keys)being played on TV.

The simple fact appears (to me) that arranger keyboards are primarily utilized professionally by 'one man band' type solo performers, songwriting & studio production work.

Scott

Scott

I think one day we WILL see Arrangers on TV. And I feel the Tyros is an Arranger that 'deserves' that type of spotlight and recognition. The sounds on the Tyros are quite simply amazing and that fine line or barrier if you will, between Synth Workstation and Arranger Workstation is diminishing and becoming more and more transparent and eventually will be gone IMO. The Tyros CAN be played without Style accompaniment much to people's chagrin and because the sounds are there it is able to compete with the best Synth Workstations for quality sound output IMO. And the Tyros is one of the best 'looking' Keyboards (Arranger or otherwise) that it would be a natural in front of the camera. But I think [one] of the things that holds the Tyros 'down' from being promoted on TV is once again the smaller Key size. 1/2" shorter over 5 octaves to a comparable Korg PA80 is a distance that IMO has to be reckoned with. Putting a Professional keyboardist in front of the Camera and especially if it is a Live broadcast, with a Tyros or other Yamaha Portatone Keyboard could possibly cause the Professional Keyboardist to think twice about his repertoire especially if it includes a complicated Classical or other sophisticated piece. Who wants to shell out clams when the President of the United States or some other dignitary may be in the audience? (I know, I know; I'm thinking BIG here) But clams can happen especially on a Keyboard that has smaller Keys even when an expert player is at the helm. The reason you see a Motif6 on TV is more than likely the music being heard is some type of Hip Hop, Funky Jazz, or Ambience/Synth Music and the Station playing it is catering to the 'younger' generation. You know; GenX, etc. And the person playing the Motif6 is probably in his teens or early twenties also. Either that or Yamaha sponsors the Group where the Motif6 was spotted on TV. Also the Key action on the Motifs are very good so half the battle is already won (the other half of the battle is having larger Keys). Btw, I really like the Key action on my Tyros too. It is way better than the PSR 2000/2100 and after comparing it with my Motif ES7 I feel the Tyros held its own against it.

So the conclusion to this would be:

"Larger size Keys on Yamaha's Arrangers would go a long way to promote and enhance their probability of gaining notoriety and National recognition not only from Professional Keyboardists but in obtaining National exposure to other Media; like TV, Concerts, etc. I think it is a Win Win situation if Yamaha implements the larger Keys on ALL of their Keyboard products. The only problem is convincing them of that reality.

Best regards,
Mike

Mike's right on the money. When you see a Triton on stage with a band....it's a pretty good bet that they are not utilizing all the capabilities in that unit, so why fret about having a built in rhythm unit that can be silenced during live play with a real band?

Isn't it funny that we say things like "real band" and everyone knows what we mean? It's odd that the term even needs to be used.
I see more and more signs for "Live Karaoke" around town ... what the hell is THAT?
What's the alternative?

Simple fact: Pro players need to be flexible, so why not have a solid, hi quality kb arranger that can do triple duty as a stage controller, a solo arranger, and a hotel room workstation?
Makes sense to me that they'd sell a gang of these. Make it right, and the price point won't even matter to the pros, because we won't need to have multiple pieces to accopmplish mutiple tasks.

Just some food for thought.
The 9000Pro is the closest thing to the ideal triple threat so far, but it's missing that one feature that many solo entertainers love - speakers. (The PSR9000 was an entirely different beast, so don't compare the 2 either.)

I am anxious to see if Korg may be the first to approach this territory with their "alledged" 61 key entry later this winter. Wait and see.

Yes, but I still think traditional keyboard players who play in bands and who don't need 'auto accompaniment' may still opt to purchase a standard 76 or 88 note synth kb over an arranger (even the Tyros), as aren't the Motif's sounds pretty much the same as what's included in the Tyros? Another factor which keyboard players, who appreciate a full deck (88 keys) yet don't need auto accompaniment will consider is that both the 76 & 88 note Motif are both substantially cheaper than the Tyros as well.

I approach arranger keyboard playing 'very differently' then playing the acoustic piano, or even a non arranger 76 note synthesizer so the .4mm (.19 inch) key width disparity imo 'pales' in comparison to the many other key feeling differences I need to compensate for when switching between a standard 88 note piano keyboard & 61 note arranger. I purposely chose the smaller synth action 61 note Tyros for (2nd only to its terrific sounds) its lightweight (27 lb) transportability. If key weight, key size, & keyboard octave range are critical to you then checkout the Technics Digital Ensemble Pianos which includes 88 large piano keys, fully weighted piano action, and auto accompaniment to boot. They sound terrific & allow you to play like you would a real piano, but I warn you that they're really heavy and defintely not very portable:
http://panasonic.com/consumer_electronics/technics_musical/ensembles.asp



Mike: I seriously doubt that the Tyros key size has anything to do with TV promotion (or lack of). The Korg PA80 and Ketron SD1 both have the (slightly) larger sized keys yet I don't see them promoted or played on TV either, yet the Motif6 (with the smaller keys) I have seen played on TV. Television promotion typically comes from paid advertisers. When you see a particular keyboard being played on stage, it's either the performer's personal instrumet of choice, or it's provided by the keyboard manufacterer (Yamaha) to promote (advertise) their product.



I'm actually booked to appear on stage for a televised live TV event (Annual SF Chinese New Year Celebration) in San Francisco in Feb 2004 so perhaps I'll be among one of those first to perform on TV with a Tyros.



I would 'never' attempt in pro performance to play a classical piano piece (written & arranged for piano) on a portable 61 note synth action keyboard. 61 note arrangers, 76 note synth keyboards, and traditional pianos each have their place. I recommend utilizing the appropriate instrument for a given job.

I'll agree that it would be nice if Yamaha decides to increase their portable arranger 'key width' to match the piano (standard?), but not doing so won't stop me from purchasing future Yamaha keyboards either, as I've grown to accept the fact (by adjust my playing technique) that arrangers & pianos are entirely different instruments and to be played differently as well. End of story (at least on my part).

Scott

Why not take the Tyros approach then and mount some speaker brackets onto a 9000 Pro or onto your keyboard stand if it's that important to you?

IMHO the Motif ES 8 has the best keys and keyboard action I've ever felt in a portable keyboard... but at 66lbs it ain't easy to call it portable! It's now possible for me to use my ultimate arranger rig on stage: the 9000 Pro and the Motif ES 8; but somebody'll have to be paying me very good indeed to use both because toting the Mo is a lot of work.

Even though the keys and action on my 9000 Pro are not what I have in my Motif ES 8 I have no problem using the 9000 Pro's keys on stage. Never even thought about it until this thread came up. I guess you could use the Motif ES 8 with something like a QY-700 (there's plenty of acreage on the top of the Mo for this) and some speaker brackets for Tyros-like monitors on the keyboard or the keyboard stand to get the best of all worlds. I'm big on the one-keyboard approach too and I don't want to burden myself too much so I'll be sticking with the 9000 Pro alone on stage for now.

Mounting speakers on an ALREADY heavy 9kpro defeats the purpose of a one piece wonderunit. If all three criteria cannot be met .... I will play this little bitty toy till something else pops up. Heavier, and silent is NOT an option.

In the today's real world, a keyboard which BOTH includes the speakers and/or larger and more (76 or 88) weighted keys, means lugging around a LOT more weight. Requiring a 'light weight' keyboard (like I do) means learning to accept certain trade offs which means the absence of some or all of the above features. Though both the Tyros & PSR2000 are lightweight (24 & 27 lbs respectively), my personal preference is to give up the built in internal speakers of the PSR2000/2100 in exchange for the much better & more responsive keyboard action on the Tyros. Uncle Dave, I believe you and I have similar desires in a 61 note keyboard. - Scott

Its bad enough having arranger keyboards decried on other forums by the synth players who look down their noses at them. Its ten times worse on this forum especially from someone who makes a living from these "little bitty toys".

My living comes from ME, my friend. No tool, or toy or instrument will ever get top billing in my act. My call to attention is to "better" the tools of my craft, not to shame anyone.

I agree Scott. If I had to make a choice and really wanted to have another Yamaha arranger, the next one would be a Tyros. I'd still rather have the speakers, but I can live without them. Poor key feel / response is another issue and I can't live with that.

I wish that the Tyros would have followed the design of the 9k pro, but then again somehow Yamaha determined that most of it's hi end arranger customers didn't need 76 keys or desire sampling or plug in board access. Actually I don't need the 76 keys either, not on my arranger anyway. Still, I've considered getting a Tyros somewhere down the road. Maybe instead I'll wait a year or two and see if something I like better from Yamaha comes along.

As far as the "itty bitty " toy remark. Sorry if saying this bothers anyone, but ya know what? That's how it feels in my hands too..

Does it do any good to complain and go on ? Maybe not.. I know it probably annoys some folks and I think Yamaha itself looks at it's arranger customers differently than it's Motif customer ( translated.. home player vs pro / studio / band player.. not that I agree with this.. just the way I thjink they look at it )

Then again, my friend Scott knows that sometimes if you make something enough of an issue someone will listen.. Rootless jazz chord recognition issue come to mind.. Right Scotty ?

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 10-15-2003).]

Get rid of the useless drum instrument icons in front of the keys and maybe the "Toy" instrument will look a little less like a toy..

. . . but it wasn't Yamaha who listened, it was Ketron! And then Scott didn't buy one anyway!!
DonM

AMEN

The reason we are all having this discussion is because of two simple facts:

1) Tyros has an excellent sounds and styles

2) Tyros is light in weight.

And so we are bringing our own issues on how to make an excellent keyboard even better.

Some of these issues are legitimate, some are legitimate for particular kind of use and some are legitimate for group of users who play certain way.

How we should handle these logically?

1) We should realise that whatever works for one does not mean it works for the other. Let us respect that others have different needs. That does not mean it is a legitimate issue for the majority of users. But at the same time, it does not mean that Yamaha automatically should ignore it.

2) We ought to realise that we are discussing an instrument and not merely group of people. So we should feel comfortable criticizing the instrument but at the same time, and more importantly, we should feel comfortable listening to the criticism and listening to the rebutals.

3) In this topic, which I personally followed carefully, no one is saying that Tyros is bad. In the contrary, the implication is very clear: Tyros can arguablly be considered the best keyboard in sounds and styles. That is precisely why many are criticizing it. Because, to them, the alternative is not getting the best in sounds and styles. That is not my opinion for I have not heard any instrument. I really do not know.

To me, the most important issue I have with Tyros is the following: PRICE. Not that it is priced wrong but that I cannot afford it at the moment. Any suggestions?

I guess I need to CLARIFY things here. This rootless chord thing was neither my invention or disccovery. This rootless chord voicing style has been popularly utilized by pro players for over 40 years and the credit goes to legendary jazz pianist great: Bill Evans.

Also: BOTH Yamaha & Technics have long included 'rootless chord' recognition in their arrangers way before I had ever pushed for the other arranger kb manufacterers to include it as well.

Yes, I thank & commend Ketron (particularly to Sandro) for both listening & getting onboard with this, but unfortunately there were other Ketron issues (confusing OS/button navigation & product reliability problems) that kept me from going the SD1 or XD9 route.

I think it's IMPORTANT to keep things in perspective and realize that most ALL arranger keyboards manufactered in the last few years offer the tools & sounds needed to make GREAT MUSIC. Perhaps instead of complaining so much about what's missing from our kbs, it's time to polish our musicianship skills to maximize what our current keyboard has to offer. I continue to enjoy both my Yamaha Tyros & PSR2000 for different reasons. - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 10-15-2003).]

Hi sk880user

I like your concept about what is going on here. I agree with you.

As far as ideas about getting a Tyros, the Yamaha psr style group on Yahoo has a group purchase of $2300 for the keyboard itself. You may want to watch ebay. I have bought several things there and got some incredible prices. I got my PSR2000 there and also my JBL Eon 10G2's. I will be receiving my Tyros case shortly from an ebay auction. I've been recycling old gear that was just collecting dust, sold them on ebay and used that to finance practically all my equipment listed above and also for my Tyros.

I would also suggest watching the for sale ads on the forums. Thats were I found mine, on SVPworld. It was 2 1/2 months old and the guy needed money quick. We negotiated, I talked to him on the phone, qualified him as being a good guy to deal with and had it shipped overnight. It included a Hitatchi 30gb hard drive. He took a beating and I got a deal, but we both won, we both got what we wanted.

Even though I've started a lot of posts about fraud on ebay, most people are honest and if you email them and talk on the phone one can get a pretty good feel if its right or not.

The other thing is monthly payments, on your own or someone elses credit card. Monthly payments run about 2% of the purchase price, so for about $40 a month you've got yourself a pro keyboard.

Hope this gives you some ideas. I really believe if you know what you want and move ahead thinking you'll get it somehow, then the way shows itself to you.

Best
Scott Langholff

Scott,

Thanks for the ideas.


But I guess that shows the importance of the quality of sounds and styles in top arrangers. This is will attract the musicians above everything.

Look at Tyros: very few features compared to the rest; a glorified PSR keyboard. But simply sells as high as the other arrangers simply due to its superior sounds and styles.

I guess this is a lesson to Casio. They are managing to get cheap and rich instruments. If they can only stop for minute and think about beating yamaha in sounds and styles.

Do you think Casio will ever jump on the "Pro Train" again and be a contender?

Casio have released the MZ3x00 series in the UK (there was a posting in here a while back from George Kaye perhaps?). 5 and 6 octave keyboards, some with smartmedia storage. I've not got to play one yet but the spec looks good.

Maybe this will persuade Yamaha to release the Pro2100 with 76 keys and removable flash storage...

It seems to me that the future would be like Genesys where Everything is in flash or something like that.

So one would buy a very cheap hardware with no sounds and styles. Then one has to buy those separately from 3rd party manufacturer. In this case, Yamaha would be more of a software company providing such sounds and styles libraries; while Casio provide the cheaper keyboards. GeneralMusic will provide the high end keyboard.

If I have a question is that how much did it cost Yamaha to develop these sounds and styles as a percentage of the cost of the whole Tyros?

I might aswell add a reply here seeming that everybody else has.
I play the yamaha digital piano P80 and play in octave style (boogie woogie on left hand)and practice hours and hours on scales on both hands.
Have psr 2100 also for my arranger board.I dont have any problem at all in adjusting to the smaller keys directly after pounding away at the piano.I think your fingers adjust without even thinking about it.

If you try to practice finger runs without the use of keys,lets say on the edge of a desk at work and play 2 octaves starting in the exact position every time,can you say that you end the scale in exactly the same position,The answer is no.
So after doing this quick test it tells me that your fingers will adjust to any size keyboard within reason ofcoarse.
I find that the difference in the key down stroke more of an issue than the width of the keys,having said that I can still adjust to that with no problem.

Dave,

The problem with you, is that you play too much. If you cut down to twice a month like many of us here, you won't notice the difference in the size of the keys. Or better yet just play once a month. Ha! Ha!

Dave playing three times a day 6 or 7 days a week and playing octaves in a bass patteren would definitely present a problem to anyone. I can imagine trying to make a living as you do with this key-size problem.

My buddy Jack wears out keyboards often. So he uses a sound module and can get good feeling keyboards for a few hundred bucks. Right now he has a Roland something or other and likes the Roland piano sound and uses it instead of the sound module for the piano.

As often as you gig (job, work , play), you're going to be more sensitive to the feel of a keyboard. Wish I played half as much as you and made the big bucks you do.

Some of us here have played for years and only made hundreds of dollars. Ask DonM.

Did I use the right U'R?
You still can't carry a tune in a bucket, but you sure can sing buddy.

Ah .... you gotta love that Boo.
Now, where IS that bucket?