New Member- guitarist turning arranger?

Hi to all,
Long time reader, at least a year. Want to thank you all for great reading since then. As you might guess from my username I am primarily a guitar player with only basic keyboard skills. I have been playing guitar for over 20 years- 10 years Pro but the last 10 at home and at parties and other occassions (cause they all know I play).
I have been thinking for a while now to expand my musical offerings with an arranger. As a guitarist I managed to surround myself with great instruments; I have a PRS custom 22 and a brazilian rosewood Martin D42 and a Kohno Model 30 classical, Gibson ES150 (1938) and some others of course.
So I know qaulity instruments and wish my background music to be the same. I tried out the Yamaha PRS2000 and it sounded pretty good. I really like the Korg PA-80 also and it has 2 audio inputs, one for my mic and one for guitar- seemed perfect.
But reading your posts I kept on delaying because I really thought your comments were like warnings.
My question is this, the Yamaha Tyros started out with so much excitement but recently there have been some reservations.
For keyboardists, are these different instruments like say the difference between a Fender and a Les Paul for the guitarist? Or maybe a solid body vs. hollowbody? I am trying to understand why everyone would not be happy with the latest greatest from a company like Yamaha, who seems to have more models of arrangers than all the others combined.
Question 2; Is the mic input really useful if you already have say a small digital mixer from Roland or Yamaha with built-in effects (do the arrangers effects for vocals compare in quality)?
Question 3- Can you really use the builtin speakers for satisfy a crowd of say 30-50 that gets louder as they get drunker (I know, more drunk)?
Sorry this turned out longer. WIth a username and a convoluted password they give you here, I hope I can contribute to the forum from a slightly different perspective. I wont be a heavy though, just when I see the opportunity to speak as a musician but not a keyboardist.
Thanks for your answers if they come. Still I read and read and its great to know al your personalities.

First of all, welcome guitarman!

my humble opinion (short and quick):

If you have a good keyboard with good vocal input and onboard effects, it's an easier set up.

(built in) speakers on the keyboards are meant for your personal monitor, or in a small setting of 5-10 people.

KN_Fan

Welcome to this forum.

My opinion regarding question 2: if you have a good quality digital mixer with built-in effects I suspect you won't get improvements using the keyboard mic input.

I get a better vocal sound using my digital mixer than using my Ketron module mic input. Less noise, more variety of effects. But for live use the difference is not noticeable, so I end up using the keyboard mic input and leaving the mixer at home.

-- José.

Hi guitarman,
ME TOO
I have a Guild D55 (right now , that`s it ) ,
And I also have a PSR2000 (Y2K) , getting back to your question about KB`s , yes , too a certain piont. Like one might compare a Y2K to the = of an "Epiphone" and a "Wersi" to a "Martin" or a PRS" ,IMO!
That does not mean that you need to spend >$4000 to get a decent KB it is just a compairison. IMO if your just starting with KB`s the "Y2K" IMO would be almost the perfect place to start. I say almost because your used to quality owning a "Martin and a PRS" (PSR very.... fine guitar ) and a "Y2K" is not going to satisfy your "quality needs" anymore than it did for me, but I have learned to but that aside and I enjoy the KB very much I just wish it had a better "key feel" and or "action"
I have been playing "Hammonds" since the late 60`s and I still have one (needs work- the Y2K sounds a zillion times better than my Hammond at the present time, I the I need to replace a couple of drivers (speakers) ) So yes and no meaning don`t even try too compair KB`s to guitars, most guitars (at least the ones you have ,are hand built, KB`s are "put together in a "mass- production".
O-BTW : "Welcome to our family and the best corner of the web " The people here are great and we all help and support each other, you could not have found a better place
Best of luck ,and let us know how you made out !!
jedi

guitarman,
Welcome home!
We have alot in common already, I'm primarily a guitarist that uses an arranger for my back up band. BTW I have a maple blonde ES 175, as well as other assorteds.

So as for my take on your Q's:

For keyboardists, are these different instruments like say the difference between a Fender and a Les Paul for the guitarist?

That's a pretty fair assessment. Most of what all of us are using is high end so it's a matter of preferences both in sounds and interface. One board is a bit mellower and the other a bit more straight ahead....depending on the listener of course.

Not as much of a difference in solid vs hollow perhaps more hollow to hollow solid to solid.....Martin, to Gibson or Taylor, etc.

The one thing about the vocal inputs on the boards, is the vocal harmonizer that can be very cool to use.

I do not use the line inputs for the guitar, as I see no need to with my setup.

As far as the fervor over different new boards...I'm still very excited about getting my Tyros. But we have discussed it quite a bit already as the new kid on the block and I think now there is just alot of wait and see when some of us in the states get them. As well as there are other good boards we have been discussing as well...Ketron Genesys etc.

About the built in speakers on any of them IMO opinion in a crowd of 30/50 drunks.....if you want to be heard, I would count on getting an external amp of some sort.
again welcome and jam on,
Terry

Hi Guitarman,

I sprung for the PA-80 and have been absolutely delighted with it "out of the box". I'm a Flamenco guitarist in roughly the same position as you; my interest was in using Middle Eastern and Greek rhythms/instruments. and adopting them to Flamenco rhythms.

The sounds on the PA80 are quite extraordinary, and the styles are great (of course, I have the Turk/Arab card - apparently the Egyptians don't like it; I'm in the process of sorting THAT out....:-)

It could have a more intuitive interface, to be sure, but that is because it is so flexible. As I've posted here and elsewhere, if Milan (KAT2000), and Korg can get a working version of the "Collected" files running, it will become very easy to program styles in SONAR......

But there is so much to it, and I really respect the musicality of the styles I don't play...

"Flamenco Chuck" www.flamencochuck.com

As a guitarist - I think the PA80 is your best choice. It offers the dual inputs with separate effects for mic and guitar. It allows monitoring in small venues, and the connection to larger systems as well. The "friendliness" feature that some of us feel is a bit over the edge is not as important to you because you will have both hands preocupied with the guitar. Do all your work at home - tweak and fiddle till it sounds right, and then it's a snap to access midi files, backing sequences and even live drum patterns to strum alongh with. many times, I just turn on the drums and play the guitar as I would in a solo setting.

All the top end units have respectable sounds, but I feel the Korg has more to offer a gigging guitarist in a live setting.
Mostly because of the dual inputs and dual sequencers, and multi outs. No other brand has all three of these features, and sounds this good.

Regarding q2. Higher end arrangers from Yamaha, Korg, Ketron, Technics, and GEM have a vocal harmony effect. This involves intelligent pitch shifting depending on the chord being played. Using the arranger mic input makes it easy to control the arranger pattern and the vocal harmony together. (Of course, you can drive an external vocal harmony unit over MIDI as well.)

BTW ....


The Ketron SD1 has 2 inputs as well . dano

Hey Guitarman ,


What about the ability to trigger chord changes in real time with your feet ?

You could connect midi bass pedals to a Ketron product and have assignable foot switches to help navigate features .


With the Ketron SD1 / XD9 / XD3 you have the ability to play direct from floppy disk or hard drive . You can also instantly removed all parts of a midi sequence except for drums and bass instantly . This could save you alot of time having to tweak or remove unwanted parts of a sequence !
dano
[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 11-05-2002).]

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 11-05-2002).]

Hello Guitarman:
As a guitarist, too, I've had great luck with the Technics KN6500 to create backing tracks. Forget the harmonizer if you're into vocals. The 6500 is particularly good for swing/jazz/easy-listening styles which is my market. Don't think this would fit your "loud drunks", if that's your primary venue. The on-board speakers are fine; but like others have said, go for a separate amplification system. In my case, I leave the keyboard at home and play along with CD-R's and minidiscs through a stereo PA setup. It works great. If available in your area, I'd recommend checking out several of the arranger keyboards before making a decision.

Yes, that's true (as did the X1), but the dedicated guitar effects give the edge to the Korg ... also the dual sequencer. Since a guitarist has no "hands on" time on the keys .... they need more auto options.
Just the way I see it. The SD1 also takes you OUT of the "monitor" game because they left out the speakers.
I am in NO way in love with the PA80, but for this scenario ..... I believe it to be the most complete choice.
These topics are not all about how it compares to the SD1. Sometimes, the SD1 is not even a consideration! (Like, with ME, for instance - sorry Danny Boy !)

Wish I was there for the Crab Fest, though !
(jealousy rears it's HUNGRY head !)

There must be more to this comment. If you are not into vocals, then you can forget the harmonizer. But I doubt you meant to say something that obvious.

Do you think vocal harmony is not a useful effect? Or do you think that the harmonizers built into arrangers (or at least into a KN-6500) are not very good?

From Uncle Dave's review, no internal vocal harmonizer matches the quality of the VoicePrism external unit. I don't know if Scott Yee qualifies as being "into vocals", but he does earn his keep using the vocal harmonizer on his PSR-2000 to good effect--a fact that I have had the pleasure of confirming in person. I have listened to MP3s of several of the pros in this forum, and several use internal vocal harmony units. I particularly recall being impressed with an early posting by Don Mason.

I attribute a relative lack of interest in the Roland VA series to the lack of a vocal harmony option for those keyboards. The only forum member that I can think of at the moment who owns a Roland VA series synth is Andrea (Dreamer), and he is definitely not into vocals and has one of every other synth as well.

Of course, just as an arranger keyboard cannot really take the place of bandmates, a vocal harmonizer cannot really take the place of backup singers. But I bet among members of this forum, most of those into vocals do use a vocal harmony effect some of the time.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
.
These topics are not all about how it compares to the SD1. Sometimes, the SD1 is not even a consideration! (Like, with ME, for instance - sorry Danny Boy !)

QUOTE]

UD,
Please stop with these observations .

I am an authorized KORG dealer .

However ,Ketron products are an option . Their are features that Ketron has that could really benefit guitarman .

dano

UD ,
It sounds like he is asking for options .

You have made it sound like he is asking exclusively about the PA80 and my suggestion to consider a Ketron product is not out of place .

IMHO I believe that the onboard speakers of a PA80 are not powerful enough to handle a crowd of 30 to 50 as mentioned .

The drum and bass feature ( available on the SD1 + XD series) is a handy tool for guitarist .
Direct playback of sequences would also be a handy tool . That's just my opinion .

dan


[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 11-05-2002).]

guitarman,
Following in Dan's spirit here, here's boards I think you should look at:

Tyros, PSR 9000 & 9k pro, Ketron sd1 & xd 9. Korg PA 80, Gem Genesys, Technics,

Visit the sites for all and have a look at features and see what suits you once you narrow it down, then go play or listen to demos online and ask Q's about them here. All of the boards I have mentioned, someone here owns and could answer for you.
jam on,
Terry

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 11-05-2002).]

Hi
Well i had to say hello, i'm a guitarist and i use midi bass pedals and an sd1 keyboard. I had a Korg i4 keyboard which replaced the roland ra50 that i purchased some years back. I did purchase a yamaha 9000 keyboard and was really excited with it in the house for a few weeks after i purchased it, but when i took it out live in a large club it just could not produce the sound, it was running through a 3 kilowatt rig with four 15 inch bass bins, mid 12's(4) 4 slotted tweeters and a pair of longthrow horns. The sound was so thin with no balls is the only way to describe it. I had a friend who purchased one a week after hearing mine, he sold his 2 months after describing it as a "nice toy". We went to the Ketron sd1 the difference is between chalk and cheese. Full sound on the drums and backing and must say one of the best harmoniers i have used, and must admit the styles really suit my modern country 60's style of music. I cannot comment too much on the right hand sounds as i really only use the ketron for the backings. This is not a dig this is just what i found gigging in the real world, many people will probably be in total disagreement. I was hoping to find a way of storing the styles in the ketron on to computer or been able to arrange the drums on the computer to make a c.d but i don't think there is an easy way
Best regards
Vikki (u.k)

Dan,
You KNOW I love ya! It's just as soon as anyone askes about a specific situation - you chime right in wih how it relates to the SD1. I realize that you love that kb the best, but I'm a little tired of hearing it as your "second comming" keyboard. I wouldn't own one if it cost less than the PSR2000, even though it has some truly great features, and just about the best drums sound out there.
We're not fighting here. I just try to give advise to the specific question, and not push the products that I sell as the first choice in almost all situations. I understand that you are excited about that kb - and that's great, really.
I just think my opinions are more objective in this matter. You have Ketron blinders on, where I have NO love for ANY of the offerings this year. The top three reasons I suggested the Korg were the dual seq (Ketron has none), the guitar effects (none again) and the multi outs (ok, Ketron has em). I also thought that a speaker model was more useful and the SD1 leaves that out as well.
Lets not squabble - We have a lot of history, and you are very passionate about your main product line. I speak strictly from a users point of view and not a sales floor. I play them ALL, and I report on how they stack up to each other.
Now, about those gigantic crabs ...... ???

Hi, I am back. Maybe I forgot to mention that I only get to the forum once or twice a week (but I go back and read a lot!!!)

I really appreciate the response and the answers are what I wanted- to stimulate some idea's of what I may be looking for that I currently don't know about.

For instance that the SD1 has two inputs, if I decide to go with a simplistic setup withou using a mixer that feature combined with the Drum and Bass feature (which I also have to look into) and the MIDI pedals (which I have always thought about) could be the ticket.

However the SamAsh near me does not carry an SD1 and I dont believe I have seen one at 48th Street either (Mannys, SamAsh and a few others on one city block- but mostly guitars). Thanks Dan01 because although I knew of the SD1 I at least have to look into more.

There was more support of the Korg PA80 than others (weven Tryos) and I admit that this was going to be my Christmas present for me until I heard the new about Tyros. I wont get gear lust as long as no new keyboard announcements come out before then.

Tyros would mean a separate mixer (which also means general improvement in overall sound) so I can use a few different guitars. Maybe I wont have to play if the mega voices are that good (hey I hope they are not better than me!- Good thing you can watch even if there is a little guitar player in there (from recent post of internals).

Korg PA80/ SD1 could mean I can sling a guitar over my back and a keyboard under my arm- roll in and get drunk with the others and not have to worry about leaving too many things behind.
My guess now is that if I like the lighter, more simple method (knowing free music for free beer and flirting... well the sound quality is not that much of an issue).

Finally Uncle Dave.. are you really my Uncle? I lost one a long time ago (same first name) and I have been reading your posts for so long that it left me wondering...

Thank you so much. This year has been the roughest year in the last 10 years for our small family (wife and twin 17 months girls). Our little NYC business nearly flushed, 5 of 7 accounts lost since SEP11-2001, FEMA made 158 separate inforamtion requests in order for us to be eligible for assistance and it is finally in the final stages of approval It was getting bad last month when I come home open the mailbox last month to find an eviction notice and open the door to our apartment to find my wife and children playing under candle light because they shut off our electricity.
I was really glad I saw the italian movie with the father protecting the kid from the horrors of the Nazi camp. Its just electricity, just one night and we all slept together in same bed with extra blanjets to keep warm. Things have improved since then (it was the kick in the ass that did it that night) and my wife and did not sell off our prized possessions. And no I wont be using the FEMA funds to buy the keyboard- that is strickly to payback loans- trust me; they make you sign a 5 year jail term clause if I spend the money elsewhere (is the Tryos worth the risk).

Well I did not mean to bore you with the story. But perhaps with all the debate on what is important for our government to act on I dont want anyone to forget that althought some died (worst); some lost everything and had to start over (terrible..horrible) and some are still fighting to keep their dreams alive (constant stress that ages you physically and a real challange.. but better than the other 2 above).

Anyway, if Uncle Dave and Dan01 (2 of my all time favorites) can have it out on my post then I think its okay to remind some people that what happened to me, a 2 or 3 year financial setback could really happen again to some others (we were pre-approved, had a sizeable downpayment and were activiley loooking for a house).

I also say this because I have enough info to do more research and learned that some people really do have strong preferences and I have the same for guitars (although my preferences are older models).

Thanks again
guitarman

BuleriaChk- I will email you later- I do a reasonable fake of a flamenco guitarist as well as a sarod player. But I am interested in how you use the arranger with flamenco.

DanO and I are very good friends, and I'm sure he knows I am not attacking him. Actually, after re-reading my comments - I'm sorry I even said that remark about the SD1. There was no real purpose, and I wish I had not rushed into it. Sorry pal - didn't mean for it to sound so harsh.
As far as my "Uncle" status - I posted the reason on my website ( a meager, little page) that you can view if you check my profile above. The link is there.

So ....... hoping no ones feelings are hurt, I remain,
Your humble Uncle
(humbleuncle, that sounds funny !)

Guitarman,
welcome to our Forum! We have something in common, in fact I am italian-american too.
Yes, I was born in Italy and still live there, but have been so many times to U.S. that I consider myself almost an immigrant...
Besides, some of my best friends live there; I have already met those on the West Coast (except Terry, but I hope to catch up with that) and plan to meet sooner or later all the others, both on the East Coast and in the middle.
Where in Italy do you come from?
By the way, on this Forum there are a lot of italian-americans and -believe it or not- even our dear Uncle Dave is half-italian.
Andrea

A couple of months ago I went to this place and the Entertainer was a guitarist who had a drum machine mounted next to him and a bass pedal connected to a module. He punched the drum machine, used his left foot for Bass, and played guitar with his hands and sang with his mouth Sat on a stool using his behind and balanced himself with his right foot.

It was impressive...I thought only arranger players could do such a full sounding one man show

Just an idea, and welcome aboard

Mosiqaar,
Larry (Beakybird) can do better than that: he was able to add a maraca to the show you've just described (but he was not sitting on a stool...)

Dreamer,
LOL!

- Brian

Dreamer, explain to me Maraca even though I am already laughing lol

My Dad always said we were "Gaelic & Garlic"
great mix....and the food ! Woah.

I'm sorry, I can't explain...it was a joke made by Larry some time ago when he wrote a parody of someone doing a one-man-show where, besides all the other instruments, he was "rotating" a maraca "inserted" in a part of the body which is usually hidden.
(Try to use your imagination...)