Simulation - How close a real B3?!

I am a huge fan of organs. I've been doing gigs with solos on Roland VK series organs and real leslie cabs and it feels great!

But I really want to get the vibes on the real thing without spending as much as the real thing costs. I want to go with a keyboard/software, where do I land?

Well, when it comes to keyboards I think Roland is the company that makes the best organ simulations. However, I think software based simulation is getting closer to the real thing. In my opinion it is generally the rotary speaker effect that they cannot simulate well enough, the organ sounds themself seem to get pretty dark and real.(I have heard real B3s only on records)

An interesting peace of software is NI B4. I have only tested it with a bad sound card but I thought it could compete with the organs in the Yamaha Tyros. What would be interesting to test would be B4 with a real leslie cab! Have any of you tried such a combination? What do you think?

Well, anyways, here is a comparison between the real thing and the NI B4. In my opinion the rotary effect of the B4 is not as good and the sound is a little sharper which makes a difference. Check it out:

Comparison between a real B3 and NI B4

BTW, what do you think about the B3 sounds in the Roland G-70? I have only heard the demos, but I thought it was good sounding, much better than for instance the Korg PA-1X...!

Best regards,
YamahaAndy

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-13-2005).]

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-13-2005).]

YamahaAndy, I use NI B4 thru Tannoy 15" Studio speakers and I think it sounds very good (emulates the real B3). You can also us samples (e.g., Sonic Implants).

I use a Hammond XM1 and a Pro3T motion sound speaker.very nice lightweight combination

Arno

Nothing beats the B4....not even the B3!!!

I agree Fran !

It is almost impossible to mike/record/amplify the B3 as good as the NI-B4 sounds.

Roel

G-70 drawbars are same as VK. If you like VK you'd like G-70.

I suspected that, it sounded too similar... It is not THAT great, but it has pretty good dark organ sound. I prefer B4 because it is sweeter on the whole range.

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-14-2005).]

Cool... I will try something similar hopefully this week. It'll be fun to try it out and see how good it is. I have a feeling that the leslie should be taken from a real leslie cab in order to come as close to the real sound that you cannot hear the difference. I also think B4 is one of the best simulation units on the market for B3 organs.

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-14-2005).]

I still play my B-3 four times a month at a local country club, where it "lives". I'm biased, but a "B" with a tube leslie...man, "ain't nothin like it!"


Russ

Lucky dog.
Remember that old "Monkees" tune ....
"I wanna B3?"

I use the Korg CX-3

I like the feel, I like the sound. The authentic shallow waterfall keybed is pretty hard to simulate in software!!

Lots of parameters if you really want to get in there. The Modeling Amp simulations are very cool also.

Being able to adjust the transition times between fast and slow is way cool if you are in the Studio and want to make the transition last exactly one measure...

Previously I had used the Oberheim/Viscount OB3 squared, but the Korg to me is much more on the money.

Probably you are wondering why I didn't get the BX-3 with both manuals? If I really need to have two manuals at once, I can just MIDI up what ever keyboard the CX-3 is sitting on and access the Lower Manual sounds that way.

That's my two cents.

Hey Russ, It's been a long time since I played a real B3, C3 or A100 but I have just got the B4 software and it's pretty close - I love it.

I had the EMU B3 module for a while and that was nice but the B4 software is much better in my opinion

However the main difference is that 1) a B4 solution if much more affordable than the real thing and 2) I don't need 3 other guys to help me move the thing.

I'm sure I would really like to play a B3 again with a real Leslie and I'm envious that you can and I can't but at least I can play mine anywhere........hehehe

Regards - Keith

Where and for what cost can I pick up the B4 software? Who is the manufacturer?

Tom

Native Instruments ( who also make Reaktor ), manufacture B4.

I would recommend shopping around. All of the major online retailers have it, as well as stores like Guitar Center, Sam Ash, etc. The average price for B4 is around $200 Usd, but I've seen it for less. I got my CS80v for a well under $200 usd at a Guitar Center on sale`( also Native Inst ). I think the original price on that was $249.00.


Like most others here, B4 for me is as good as it gets without lugging around a real B3 from place to place.

AJ

So let me ask what do you need to get into a soft synth like the B4? I have a laptop with win 98 and a desktop mediacenter (xp pro) can I use the tyros keyboard? what about latency?

Do I need a different or special soundcard?
I know in some other threads I've said softsyths don't interest me, So I'm just wondering how much of an investment and learning curve I would need?

Is this one more thing to tie me to the computer and take me away from the music?

Any good free ones I can use with powertracks pro to try out and see if I can get into it.


[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 03-17-2005).]

Mikeathome1,
I am fairly new to softsynths so I can be corrected by others.
The NI B4 can be used as a stand alone, so you would not need any other software. You don't need a special soundcard. There is a demo available at the NI website, but they really cripple these demos excessively IMO. You could use your Tyros as a MIDI controller. I tried the demo and had some sticky notes I think, but your mileage may vary. A driver update would correct this.
There is also ZR3 and daOrgan, but these are vst which wud require a wrapper and a vst host. Playing an authentic sounding Hammond B3 should make you keep playing, but yea, you will need a computer.
Starkeeper

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 03-17-2005).]

Dave,
You see the Monkees on regular on TV in those advertising commercials for old songs on cd

They use a VOX Continental in the old film
So must have been the reason

My "portable" Hammond set-up is a Hammond XB-2 and a Motion Sound top rotor box (don't think Motion Sound sells this one anymore-it it is a small box with horns-about 18 lbs).

I use the Hammond on the bottom of the rack and my Ketron on the top. That way, I have left-handed bass through the Hammond when I need it, and doppler effect when I need organ sound. I use a channel on the PA for the bottom rotor simulator (15" cabinets).

Occasionally, for big jobs, I use a tube 147RV Leslie with the XB-2. That's better!

Still, I wouldn't want to move it, but a REAL B-3 with a 147 is THE BEST! My one night a week job at a country club let's me play "old school" without having to move the "monster". Luckily, when I was playing B-3 all the time, the jobs were all "house" jobs, so I only moved every few years or so.


Russ

You'll need a decent to good quality soundcard, preferably with ASIO type drivers. Otherwise you will notice latency, or delay between the time you press a note or use a pitch wheel and the time you actually hear it. Even a Soundblaster is ok, if it has updated kx drivers, or you use the freeware ASIO4all, which pretty much makes any soundcard ASIO compliant. There is a link to Asio4all on the main SZ page BTW.

For now, if you are using a lesser soundcard, try ASIO4all and see if that eliminates the sticky note problem.

You'll need a host. If you just want to try out one softsynth, with no added vst effects, try Tobybear's freeware Simple VST Host, available at KVR audio. It works fine. Otherwise, you'll need a soft sequencer / daw ( Sonar, Cubase, FL studio, edtc ) or a standalone app like Xlutop chainer ( approx 49 Usd ) or Brainspawn Forte. There are even a few freeware daws out there that now support multiple Vst instruments and effects.

Does this stuff tie me to the computer ? Absolutely. Does it hamper my music making ability ? Only if I let it. Often I used to start a piece out on hardware, but the finished product would go to software if I thought it would be sonically better ( usually it is ). But... using a simple app like Chainer has freed up so much of the technical workings for me, that it feels like I'm playing a real instrument again. My laptop is simply another module now, and I use Chainer to host the instruments. I keep all of my Vst instruments and effects on the laptop, but I generally use no other daw software on it, except that I keep One Man Band on it for live work and Adobe Audition on it so that I can make it a portable daw for recording away from the home studio. I also kept FL studio on it in case I want to make quick beats away from home.

All of the daws and actual software programs ( Band in a Box, FL Studio, Sonar, jammer pro etc ) now reside and are primarily used on my PC, and I connect the laptop output to the PC's daws by going right through my hardware mixer, just like all of my hardware instruments do.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-17-2005).]

I can't find the link for Asio4all is it within another link?

hmm, I thought it was on SZ's start page, but I guess I'm wrong.. like that's the first time THAT's ever happened..lol

Well here it is :
http://www.asio4all.com/

Best Regaards,

AJ

thanks AJ I'll give it a try.
Mike

I run B4 as a stand alone program. No host needed. I use an Audigy 2 w ASIO drivers. I Have a PCR50 as controller. I also have a Roland VK7. Some sounds are better on the B4.
But I can use a swell and speed pedal on the VK7.
Has anyone tried B4Buddy with the B4. I have it but I dont get it. Whats it for?
Smokey

Sorry this isn't a very good picture but I thought you guys might enjoy it anyway. This is a Novation X-Station 49 keyboard with a Toshiba P2120 subnotebook running NI B4. I just got the X-Station, which is a new 8-voice synth/midi controller/audio interface with ASIO. You just plug a single USB cable from the keyboard into the laptop and that's all you need... even the power for the keyboard is supplied by USB. I've only been testing this setup but I intend to take this little softsynth rig to a jam session sometime with one of my Motion Sound KP-series amps for fun. It sounds terrific, and the X-Station comes with a template for the B4 so the knobs control many parameters such as rotor speed, acceleration, overdrive etc. and of course drawbars via the sliders.

I didn't buy the X-Station for this purpose ( I bought it to go with Reason v3) however it makes a dandy little organ when you add a B4-loaded laptop. The X-Station also has it's own synth sounds also, and more info can be found at www.novationmusic.com. It's my first true softsynth-based live performance rig.

[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 03-18-2005).]

If and when I need a B3 sound, I get what I need (and then some)..from my T3. It's just a matter of going into it and editting the parameters and tweaking 'til you get the sound you're after.
That said, unless you run it out of a 15" or better, I honestly can't see where you'd get that full sound required, short of using an honest to goodness B3 with a leslie cabinet.
I get a lot of fellow kb players that I associate with commenting on the great B3 sounds I'm able to achieve.
Sure..I'd love to park myself behind a B3 for real, but when you're gigging regularly....one little problem arises....
..Transportation.

My 3 cents worth....with apologies to Frostbyte.
btw: The CX-3 is a very sweet ride. I just wish they didn't cost so much up here in Canucklehead Land.
...Just my thots.

------------------
...shboom

[This message has been edited by shboom (edited 03-18-2005).]