software arranger

One man Band, XG Works, or Band-in-a-box? Which has the best selection of styles, most natural feeling styles, best options for expansion. Anyone know anything about these?

Band in a Box was rated #1 in a competition recently. OMB is also very good and the support you will get will be excellent because Jos Maas (the author of OMB) is a member of SZ. Plus you can receive support through the Yahoo PSR Styles Group or by simply emailing Jos. Here is Jos's web site for OMB: http://www.1manband.nl

Best regards,
Mike

OMB seems to work with PSR styles, but any out there that are Korg related? I'm wondering if it's possible to find the korg pa1xpro styles for any of these programs, or at least something competitively equal. I always thought Korg's had a little more natural feel in the drum & bass compared to Yamaha, though Yamaha's are less busy all around, but I prefer to have good drum & bass and mute the busy tracks if needed, so I would love to find Korg pa1xpro styles for a software arranger. Does Band in the Box import styles from other companies such as Korg and can they be found?

XGworks is excellent for Yamaha styles and has the advantage of allowing external styles such as those from your keyboard. So the sky's the limit as there are several thousand styles around on the net for Yamaha keyboards. Great for keying in the melody and chords from your fake book and generating an arrangement.

Bryan

I, personally, think BIAB works very well with the Pa80. I just connect the Midi cables and it runs the Pa80 just fine. I know that AJ doesn't like them a lot because he feels they sound too canned, too slick.

There are virtually no Pa80 third party styles because, apparently, they are relatively too hard to do well and Korg does not seem very interested in helping people with the information required to do it. I don't personally know enough to make styles so this is all just observation from sitting on the sidelines and seeing what happens (or, in this case, what doesn't happen).

The only place you can find very many Pa80 styles is Fabio's site, and they are all conversions from other keyboards rather than original, done on the Pa80 styles.

One other possibility; the Pa80 will read (load) I30 styles, so it is possible to load them in and then save them back out as Pa80 format but you may have to do some internal editing to get them to sound the way you want.

All of the above is why I'm seriously considering adding a Tyros to go with my Pa80 and having the best of two worlds.

Tom

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Bigger is not always better

Hi,
why don't you try the demo's, and make up your own mind about what suits you best.
OMB & XG works can both use psr styles.
BIAB has it's own style format, and Jammer ( which you didn't mention) has it's own format too.

http://home.zonnet.nl/josmaas/onemanband/
http://www.yamaha.co.uk/xg/html/midplug/m_mid10.htm#Downloads
http://www.soundtrek.com
http://www.pgmusic.com/biabwindemo.htm

best wishes
Rikki

I think BIAB is a very intuitive and well laid out program. Some of the BIAB styles are ok Tom. I think my main objection to some of them is that many seem to be centered around the Jazz genre, and in truth, I don't think any rigidly structured styles can really do justice to that type of music. I do think though, that the BIAB jazz styles are the best of the lot in the program, and I am not very impressed with some of it's other genres. I do like BIAB as a drum machine though. It's easy to step enter and then modify variations of drum notes and patterns to create user styles. I still think a BIAB and Jammer Pro are better for composing than an arranger in some ways, because each automatically allows for changes in the note data inside of a single style variation ( there are several midi files and other comntroller data within a single style variation ). Arranger pattern variations are generally locked into one midi file or passage for each instrument per style variation.

XG works is a good program, but all the style data has to be entered or step recorded manually, and I find it to be cumbersome when I want to jam along to something or get an idea that I want to develop quickly. The approach and interfce could be better. Although BIAB also requires one to step enter chords ( unless you want the program to enter some random chords for you, based on how you configure it), the process and interface makes it much quicker and logical to do ( at least for me ).

OMB allows you to change chords and variations in real time. It is, however, limited to Yamaha format styles. One advantage though is that it uses Cakewalk type instrument files. I simply replaced the default ins defintions with the Motif ES definitions, and then changed the file name to OMB.ins, and voila, I now have the ES patches available from within to use with OMB. That was sooo easy. I can't do that in XG works, and I had to hand make ins files for Jammer Pro and BIAB ( totally different formats ) for both the PA80 and Motif.

The alternative to BIAB is Jammer Pro. In some ways the two are similar, but each approaches song creation in a different manner. I really liked version 4, as it was very quick and easy to alter styles to your own preferences and tastes. Jammer Pro Version 5 is more complex, and allows you to edit style data on a piano roll type sequencer, but along with this and some other improvements, the OS became much more cumbersome to me and all in all it's a disappointment for me. Still, you can make some complex stuff with it and it uses different algorithims along with several pieces of midi data per style variation to make it sound more random and therefore "real" vs a locked arragher style. This is also true of BIAB, but with a different approach.

Jammer Live would be an alternative to OMB, as it allows for instant live play like an arranger, but it uses only Jammer format styles, and no style editing capabilities ( at least in the version I used )

I haven't tried Live styler or Real time style performer as extensively, but I think our own Frank L Rosenthal knows a thing or two about these programs. They are similar to OMB in that you use Yamaha format styles in real time, but they have different approaches and interfaces as well.

Rikkisbears mentioned it and I agree. Most if not all of these programs have working demos that can give you an in depth feel for the programs, so I would recommend to try them all. I did, and subsequently purchased all of them at different times except for Live Styler and Real Time style performer ( I'm a happy OMB user )

There is also an excellent jazz based program called Jazz++ sequencer. It has algo's built in that allow for creation of unique drum bass and rythym / harmony instrument pieces. It was once a commercial program, but has since become open source and is now freeware.

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-29-2003).]

Hello BP,
Thanks for your really detailed review of these programs..
I really appreciate your response.

BP, I own the korg i30 interactive arranger, and my Korg Trinity V3.

I personally love the sounds of my Trinity.. And I love the Programing ease of my i30, but the sounds of my i30 are getting pretty much outdated...They sound fine, but I think, the Trinity still is more awsome !!

Now, Can you please help me?
I have OMB, not the latest version, but the previous one. And only the demo, but I didnt order it, because, I couldnt get the hang of it. Also, I wanted to use my trinity drumkits and basses instead of the i30 GM sounds..
Well, if Im able to give you a text file of all my patches on the Trinity, would it take too much time from your time to convert it to OMB format?
Or better yet, if you could teach me how to do it, I would be so greatfull !!

I think if Joe had this files available at his website, it would be so much better and a lot of people would be so much more interested in his software.

So, by using your conversion method, I for example, would be able to patch the drums track on OMB to my trinity drum track and it would sound perfectly?
This would be a dream come true, as I have no clue on how to do something like this...

thanks BP...


Peace,
Musikman

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BP,
I did a yahoo search on Korg Trinity V3 Cake walk ins file and found this one,
http://209.35.182.75/trinityhaven/SOFTWARE/CakewalkV3def.zip

Can this file be the one to use?

Thanks for your help BP..

Peace,
Musikman

I don't remember exactly how it worked in the older versions Musikman, but I don't think the earlier versions used the cakewalk type .ins files. I now have version 6, which does use the ins type files. I'm not sure whether vers 5 does or does not.

The file that you linked to in your last post appears to be the proper cakewalk ins file for the Trinity. It appears that there are three seperate ins files though. One for combinations, one for regular patches, and one for drums. You could probably open each of them up in notepad, and then copy and paste all of the data from one to the other, and then save it as a new ins file. You would need to do this becaue it appears that OMB will only recognize the default ins file ( named OMB.ins - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here Joe or anyone else ).

I had done something like this when making Jammer Pro device files for my PA80 and Motif. Not all the data was correct from the ins file, because a jammer dev file uses a different format, but at least I was able to copy the instrument names from the ins file, which saved me from having to type that part of the data in. In your case, since you will still wind up with an .ins file at to use, all the data should be correct.. It's just a simple matter of copy and paste.

Once you get the required data into one .insfile, all you would have to do is to open the OMB folder, and find the file named OMB.ins . ifm you want to, simply copy this file and save it in another folder for safe keeping should you ever want to reinstall it, and then delete the original OMB.ins file from the OMB folder.

Then take the Trinity .ins file, place it into the OMB folder, and rename it OMB.ins file, and it should work just fine. If your version does not have the OMB .ins file in it, it would be well worth it to move up to vers 6.

As far as Joe making the .ins files available at his website,.. I won't speculate as to whether he should or shouldn't do that or whether there might even be legal reasons that would prevent him from doing it, but my experience with Joe is that he has taken several suggestions from myself and from other users, and incorporated them into later releases of his software. he is very responsive and has made many upgrades based upon user requests.

BTW, I think there is an .ins file available for just about any modern day synth out there. All one has to do is look a little.

Good Luck

AJ

Musikman,

First download version 6. The ins file feature is already there in your version 5 but there is no sequencer! Without the sequencer you can't compare it with BIAB, Jammer and XG Works.

The best way to get a Cakewalk ins file would be to ask for it at a forum dedicated to your instrument. There is some info on how to edit the ins files at http://www.1manband.nl/ins.htm .

Jos

Thanks BP for your instructions..Im going to download Version 6 and give it a go.

Joe,
The file that I pointed to BP, is the iNS file for my trinity V3. But Im kind of confused as to what this file really does.
Ok, I understand that it tell your program the name of each of the patches in my trinity.
But lets say, I want to use it with my trinity drums.. IN other words, when I play the keyboard on my Trinity, OMB will trigger drums and bass chords accordingly in real time from my Trinity sound generator.
But, Since my Trinity is not GM compatible, By changing the INS file in OMB like BP stated, will OMB trigger the correct drumsamples in my Trinity?

Or would I have to change the setup of my drumkits to match that of OMB?

I really dont know how to do that? I wish there was a way..But I wondered if BP's way will do it without doing it at the synth itself..

Thanks for all your help guys...

best,

Musikman

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You may not have to change anything in the Trinity Musikman, so long as it recognizes the basic GM drum patches. The majority of the Yamaha xg based styles seem to use similar mapping and notes for drum sounds, no matter which drum kit you use. If this is not the case, it might be better to edit the styles themselves so that the proper drum sound plays.

What you will have to do to get the best sounds for your styles is go into the mixer in OMB and reassign the Trinity voices that you prefer to use. The .ins file is basically a compilation of the internal voices of your synth. In other words, the .ins file will activate the sounds in your board when you select those sounds in the OMB mixer, by sending the correct midi commands to the Trinity and telling it which patch and bank numbers to use.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 12-02-2003).]

Musikman,

The ins files are just for documentation. Instead of choosing patch 24 in bank 156 you will be choosing "space guitar" in the "flower power" bank. But you will need a GM or XG device for the auto accompaniment. If there is no GM bank in the Korg (I don't see one in the ins files you pointed to) then you should use another device for the accompaniment. Maybe the soundcard in your PC has a reasonable sound. You can still use the Trinity for the melody with layers and autoharmony if you use the Midi Mapper to assign channel 1 thru 8 to the Korg and 9 to 16 to a GM device.

If you are going to make your own styles then you can use the Trinty for auto accompaniment. Revoicing as BP suggested is also possible. You can use the drumtrack converter to convert the drumnotes if you first make a table that reassignes each XG drumnote to a similar Trinity drumnote.

Still with only 32 polyphony on the Trinity I would get an extra GM device.

Jos

Musikman,

Another alternative are soundfonts, if you have a creative labs card installed or another softsynth available that will load and play them. Most of them are written with GM patches. There are some pretty good ones out there, including a free one called Personal copy that has very good sounds "for what it costs".

I just played the midifile of "What child is this" using the personal copy soundfont, and the sonic quality rivals that of an MP3 of the same song that was posted here by another member, played through the Tyros.

AJ

Hi Musikman, good to see you here.

If you still have the original floppy disk that came with the Trinity for preload reinstall, there is a GM set on that floppy. It will install the GM set to Bank A and the drums to Bank B. It's not the best sounds on the Trinity but at least it makes it compatible with GM. If you don't still have it, I could probably send it to you in an attachment (if I could figure out how, LOL).

Tom

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Bigger is not always better

Hello TC,
thanks for all the tips guys...

Really, this is what I really want to do.
I want to be able to play the drums and Bass tracks on my Trinity, even if I have to disable the other parts..
I dont want to use the GM sounds of my trinity because, in the past I tried and it sounded horrible. THe drums track sounded like if a little kid programmed it..
But anyways, I want to use the sounds of the Trinity...
If I somehow, update what notes on my Keyboard OMB triggers, I think that will work.. I think this is the idea BP is giving me.
But the thing is, Ok, I would have to know exactly what instrument sound is on what Key when the drumkit is selected.

Sometimes, some drumkits do have the right sounds in my trinity, and are in the right keys, but somehow, others are like one octave off, or totally the sound is different.

I totally think it would be easier to tell OMB which notes to trigger. Even though its thinking its using GM or XG. Thats what im trying to learn.
I will download OMB this weekend and try it. HOpefully I can get the hang of it.

Thnk you guys.. thanks Joe..

Peace,

Musikman

PS, sorry guys for always asking the same questions, but I cant seem to get the hang of this I dont know why.

Guys, I loaded the GM disk set to my Korg trinity and guess what?
OMB worked like a charm !!!!

I found out what I was doing wrong.. I had all the midi channels set to internal, even though I had internal control set to off.
When I set in the trinity to Both in or out, One man Band worked so awsome !!

Im still trying to figure out how I would use OMB fully and therefore be able to not have to use my hardware arranger anymore.

For one, In my Korg I30 I have two sequencers. One that records my backing sequences.. Like bass, drums, percussion, and the other three backing tracks.. then I have another four tracks or six, I dont exactly remember, that Ican use to play my melodies..
If everything is perfect, I just use this sequencer. But, If I wanted to edit stuff, then I go to the other 16 track sequencer, and load the backing sequence as Standard midi file.

Is this possible with OMB?
I saw there was a sequencer in OMB and it looked rather simple to use, but I wonder if its possible to have the chord recognition system and me playin the keyboard in real time while it records the song. I couldnt figure that part out. I just was able to load parts of the style in different sections by just dragging and dropping them into the sequence. I want to be able to play it in realtime while OMB sequencer records it.

Also, I have Cubase VST 32m 5.1r1 and I wondered, if it was possible to do what I want with OMB and cubase at the same time.

If im able to do this, then I will definitely consider selling my hardware arranger. I couldnt believe the quality of the Sounds, plus when I was in my trinity's sequencer mode, I was able to add insert effects to some of the instruments playing from OMB...It was pretty awsome..

WOW !! So much to learn !!! Thank you Jos for this awsome program, I think it really is so close to being the best arranger program and as good as a hardware in my opinion.. I just have to figure out some more things...

Im going to try more things and I will let you guys know...

peace,

Musikman

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Musikman,

You can't record chords in real-time in the sequencer window. But you can record a chord sequence in real-time in the song window and then use the menu file/convert-songchords-to-sequence option.

Jos

WOW !! thats an awsome option. Im going to try it out..
I also wondered if its possible to record more that one melody. what I mean, is lets say, i recorded one, then I want to add stuff on top of that one.. is this possible?

Thanks for the tip Jos...

Peace,
Musikman

PS, I still need to learn how to not have to use the midi sounds though.. but for now, Im going to try to learn OMB deeper !! Its awsome..

You can mix 1 multivoice and 8 single voice melody tracks.

Jos

Yeah, I was reading the help file.. ITs really awsome man... I just havent had too much time to keep on reading, since, Ive been so busy this weekend with my kids soccer playoffs...

I really think you got a truly awsome program.. I will definitely going to buy it.. Do you accept paypal Jos?
I would love to pay you via paypal.. its easier for me since I already have an account with them...
If you do, please email me and give me your contact name so I can pay..

Good job Jos !!

Peace,
Musikman

Question, If I say, record in you programs, sequencer, can I then do more detailed editing in Cubase's sequencer?

Musikman,

Same answer as in the other thread:

Porting a midifile from OMB to a sequencer program like Cubase or Cakewalk for the finishing touch (audio recording with VST plug in's) would be a good idea.

Jos

Have any of you tried Ntonyx Onyx?