This thread is for bashing

Posted by: Fran Carango

This thread is for bashing - 08/30/06 11:31 AM

I started this post for any bashing or negative comments about any equipment..No bashing of people..

If you can't handle negative input of your beloved instrument...leave now!!!

Anyone care to start?

OK I will..I hate the icons[drums] on the toy like appearance of Yamaha and Casio keyboards.
Posted by: kla4

Re: This thread is for bashing - 08/30/06 11:52 AM

OK I write this reply with a simple question :
What is the use of this childish topic ?

I hope the topic will be ignored from now by all members!.... Please do.
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: This thread is for bashing - 08/30/06 12:05 PM

Roel how are you?
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: This thread is for bashing - 08/30/06 12:31 PM

Great topic Fran!!!

In keeping with your topic, I hate the slow transferring of files from the Gem Genesys to the computer using the CD burner on the Gem Genesys and the lack of rootless chord voicing recognition.
I hate the touch screen on the Korg Pa1x totally useless in a music setting and especially for live playing. And it does not even have a PC editor

I hate the heaviness of the Roland G70 and also the lack of a sampler.

I hate the lack of 76 keys on the Tyros 2 and the spaceship look.

I hate the fact that most persons on the SZ don’t have any respect and never took the time to understand the mediastation and it’s forward looking concepts and approach to keyboard usage.


Fran you and DNJ would be missed when you all leave or just get so ostracized on the SZ because a few other members just can not understand your brilliance and don’t agree with your views on keyboards.

If you don't get a lot of responses on this topic then that would prove what I mean.
Posted by: tony mads usa

Re: This thread is for bashing - 08/30/06 12:52 PM

I wasn't going to, but I will step into the trap ...
I hate the fact that technics stopped making arranger kbs ... the BEST of them ALL
t.
Posted by: Uncle Dave

Re: This thread is for bashing - 08/30/06 01:04 PM

Two words, dude .....
KEY FEEEEEEEEEEEL !!!

nuff said.
Posted by: squeak_D

Re: This thread is for bashing - 08/30/06 01:21 PM

I hate that "no" arranger to date can compete with the likes of a synth for modern music.

Squeak
Posted by: cgiles

Re: This thread is for bashing - 08/30/06 02:23 PM

I'd like to see a arranger keyboard that would automatically "dumb down" to the intelligence level of it's owner. Also, the quality of the voices would automatically reflect the quality of the playing. Also, hitting a "bad" chord while playing live, would cause an immediate system shutdown and restart (with the autoload of a 10 Gig piano sample). Also, each time a SMF or MP3 is played through the keyboard, a vocal sample would automatically play the following announcement: "THE MUSIC YOU HEAR IS NOT BEING PERFORMED BY THE PERSON PRETENDING TO PLAY THIS KEYBOARD".

chas
Posted by: FAEbGBD

Re: This thread is for bashing - 08/30/06 04:11 PM

I hate any and all equipment that has touch screens, and scrolling and/or wrapping menues. I hate most music software programs because I've either gotta work like hell to get my screenreader to deal with all the graphics and poor design, or I just can't use it altogether. I hate image/text varification on websites like Rapidshare or KVR. I hate that American companies can't produce solid carved tops on archtop Jazz guitars that sound any good unless you're willing to pay 15000 dollars, while China can do it for 2000.
Posted by: zuki

Re: This thread is for bashing - 08/30/06 04:43 PM

Roland piano/strings layering vs that absolutely great Yamaha feature......... I'd be in heaven if Roland would take a lesson.

Great thread Fran

zuki
Posted by: cassp

Re: This thread is for bashing - 08/30/06 05:30 PM

I hate it that
i can't tell the difference between models of the same manufacturer with different names, like E60, E09, EM, EXR (Roland) and Yammy stuff too with PSRs and Clavinova, and P and CP. I need a da** road map for all this stuff.

Great idea, Fran!!!
Posted by: shiral

Re: This thread is for bashing - 08/30/06 05:38 PM

Wow!! What a Thread!! Thanks!

I hate...

* manufactures shipping half cooked products and letting people wonder how well their promised features would work before buying.

* keyboards not shipping with computer based GUI to its operating system making the user push 100s of buttons even when it's not necessary (e.g. when using for recording or when configuring)

* not having a standard style file format that would only require revoicing (of course when you port from 2 fill-in keyboard to a 4 fill-in keyboard last two fill-ins will be empty. In the other direction they would be ignored) when switching keyboards. (Can even store the choice of voicing for different models if there are meta data to specify the brand and model.)

* technical support reps insinuating we don't know anything about MIDI with comments such as 'MIDI file itself doesn't contains sound' or 'your sustain pedal itself doesn't produce the sustain'.

* charging $200 for a 8MB flash card (Korg FMC-8MB). What is it made of?

* discriminating against non PC users. (e.g. KORG PA80 style converter)

* over-glorified advertising (I like Yamaha people and their keyboards, but their advertising .....)

Shiral

[This message has been edited by shiral (edited 08-30-2006).]
Posted by: Diki

Re: This thread is for bashing - 08/30/06 08:53 PM

I hate that Yamaha doesn't make a rack module with SA sounds and sampling....

I hate how slow samplers load (USB 1 - how quaint!)....

I hate how manufacturer's new features are never ones we actually ASK for....

I hate how you can never talk to the actual arranger developers - just some PR flack.....

I hate how manufacturers think that a $4k keyboard needs a HD recorder that a $800 laptop can do better (16-bit, how quaint!).....

I hate how arranger manufacturers think we don't need/want as detailed voice editing and controller capabilities as their workstations....

I hate how you can't edit the WIDTH of a stereo sample....

I hate how Roland hardly EVER post demos of arranger play - it's always an SMF.....

I hate paying $4k for an arranger with half the editing capabilities of a $2k workstation......

I hate how George Bush turned FEMA over to his political cronies and they ended up ruining my favorite US city (oops, wrong forum!).........
Posted by: Nick G

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/01/06 02:02 AM

top post!

I hate how technics stopped producing keyboards too! Long Live the KN6500 !!!

I hate how people on this forum spend more time bagging eachother than posting music and sharing opinions and thoughts!

I hate how Tyros 2 does NOT come with a HDD for its new feature the hard disk recorder!!

Why cant they make a board that has all the capablilites of a synth AND an arranger in one?

I want PIANO ROLL Editing on the tyros like the technics KN series!

I wish more ppl in this forum lived in Australia! LOL

Peace

Nick
Posted by: bruno123

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/01/06 04:34 AM

I want PIANO ROLL Editing on the tyros like the technics KN series!

Nick, PIANO ROLL editing on the KN keyboard is not one of their features.Sorry

John C.
Posted by: spalding4

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/01/06 04:44 AM

Ok I'll bite......

I hate arrangers that have "sequencers" on them that are little more than recorders. I hate arrangers that are sold as complete but actually are still work in progress like the G70.

I hate the over emphasis of key feel as oposed to instrument sound !

I hate the weight of the PAX1 and its cumbersome operating system!

I hate the fact that Ketron SD5 comes with atonishing sounds and new features like the riff function but then takes away basic functions like a sequencer ?? What the hell is that about ????

I hate the fact that the Casio MZ2000 has ceased production (cause from what i have heard it was truly ahead of its time and in a price range to suit everyone.

I hate the fact that if i want to buy a decent arranger i have to be prepared to take out a mortgage to afford one (hence my next upgrade is likely to be 10 years from now !)

But the thing i hate the most has nothing to do with the instruments.

I hate the apparent loss of cameraderie that used to exist on the Zone and I long for the good days to come back before we destroy this sanctaury for enthusiastic and experimenting amateur and pro musicians....
Posted by: Fran Carango

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/01/06 11:27 AM

I hate that I agree with nearly every comment on this thread ...Thanks guys for making a civil thread work even about controversial subjects..This proves to me that we can be as one here on SZ..

Roel, I hope you changed your opinion of the concept of this post..
I would like to hear your negative view of instruments..
Posted by: tony mads usa

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/01/06 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bruno123:
I want PIANO ROLL Editing on the tyros like the technics KN series!

Nick, PIANO ROLL editing on the KN keyboard is not one of their features.Sorry

John C.


John,
thnx... I thought I was missing something.......
t.
Posted by: chony

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/01/06 11:41 AM

I want to bash Yamaha for wasting so much space on the Tyros and forcing me to pay oversize each time I fly.
Posted by: rattley

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/01/06 06:50 PM

Great Post!!!

I hate Yamaha for their lack of support (EVER) and lame promotions of XGworks.

I hate Yamaha for once again hyping IDC styles when Tyros2 came out, promising that they kept the stylemakers on their payroll to continue releasing more.................I think I've seen 2 in the past 8 months!!

The rest I love...........................
Posted by: Nick G

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/01/06 10:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tony mads usa:
John,
thnx... I thought I was missing something.......
t.




I mean in the style sequencer, it has a very simlar layout, with the grid and asterixes. much better than the event list view...
Posted by: Wis

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/02/06 02:18 AM

I do not like bashing.
Posted by: ianmcnll

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/02/06 03:02 AM

Me neither.

Ian

------------------
Remember to leave good news alone.
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/02/06 03:26 AM

Nice topic Fran
May I bashing my self too?

I hate that my mediastation is not complete of the all features that you are looking for.

I hate that the VST under Linux need the Wine app and we have always to waiting that they continue fix.

I hate that I have only the beta test of the DJ arranger, where we can clone by audio wav all the original keyboards styles.

I hate that the mediastation will be sold only ONE time and we cant asking you more money for the updates.

I hate that we dont have time for make different software for different products, in this way we are able to suck you much more money every 6/8 months, like the other manufactures.

I hate that only Oriental musician have understand the power and the future of the mediastation and not the Europe-Usa.

I hate that the all other manufacture still continue selling you closed embedded system, slow like .....and no full possibility PC share connections.

I hate people that will only Eat the same stuff and they never will try to eating some different because they thinking are not so good.

Anyway, I know that only time will tell what the future holds and we are sure that someday we can make you there all happy.
Like or not, but LIONSTRACS will NEVER closed for make someone there happy...

Cheers
domenik
Posted by: T42

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/02/06 01:04 PM

Hello Domenik.
Do you have a UK distributor for your Mediastation product, where I could go and play one?
Posted by: rikkisbears

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/02/06 06:52 PM

Hi Nick,
you're not on your own there. Was so looking forward to a KN8000.

PSR's doesn't have piano roll editing, but I beleive you can do event list editing on a user style?? Like John, I think my next keyboard will hopefully be a T2 .
If hubby thinks it's too expensive I'll be happy to settle for a PSR3000.
Unfortunately for Technics owners, sadly one day they are going to have to find another brand.
My KN7 sold in a flash on Ebay Australia, haven't spotted one since.

best wishes
Rikki

Quote:
Originally posted by Nick G:
top post!

I hate how technics stopped producing keyboards too! Long Live the KN6500 !!!

I want PIANO ROLL Editing on the tyros like the technics KN series!


Peace

Nick
Posted by: Diki

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/03/06 10:05 AM

I hate it when manufacturers post here apologizing for the fact that their product is still beta, but still want you to buy one so they can finish it.......

On the other hand, Roland (and all the manufacturers, really) NEVER post here apologizing for the fact their arrangers still have bugs and unfinished features, so at least Domenik deserves credit for 'fessing up........
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/03/06 10:58 AM

Actually, it doesn’t seem like the mediastation itself is beta. But it is more that some of the most innovative features and software is in beta.


It sounds as if to use the mediastation as a gigging keyboard like you use a Roland, Yamaha or Gem, it can do the job as good as and in some cases much better than the standard arrangers.
Posted by: Diki

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/03/06 11:49 AM

An arranger is the combination of software and hardware..... if either one is still beta, then the arranger is beta.

I have no problem with the concept, and I believe that it is the way of the future. I look forward to getting one when the promise is realized, rather than in development...

For the high cost of one of these computer based arrangers, it should work as well OOTB as a comparably priced Yammie or Roland, but as of now, not only does it require a lot more money added to the cost to add the Giga and software instruments of your choice, but, as Domenik points out, you are relying on third-party companies to provide robust drivers to allow you to use the VST instruments of your choice in the Linux environment. Not to mention the debugging process you will have to put yourself through every time your VST instrument gets updated, or you upgrade the CPU or I/O options.

The future is coming, no doubt, but I don't feel it has quite got here, yet.
Posted by: LIONSTRACS

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/03/06 02:16 PM

Dear Diki
I don't agree with you in all the points.
All the hardware products that are working with software, will be never finish, because we can always updating the product with new features.
This of course depend on the OS you are using for this products.

maybe you remember when Microsoft switch the DOS OS to Windows NT, windows95, then Windows 98..I tough that was the LAST and best OS and they sell out and you had buy too.
then is born the windows Xp, for sure you have canged your PC and installed it, you tough that will the last better and stable OS.. BUT not...need the service pack 2 for fix a lot of bugs..
Now they have the windows Xp for the 64bit CPU, but is NOT working well BUT they still sell the OS upgrade package...are you sure that this new OS is ready to sell or is still a Beta OS?

Don't worry that the same is for Apple, I still use one Powermac 333Mhz with the OS 9, is working fine for my CAD, but I know that give the new Apple G5, OSX 10...

Same way is for the keyboards manufactures, do you think that they in the last 20 years still recycle the SAME OS without fix bugs and add new features?

I own of one Roland G-800/megafloppy and Korg Trinity, I tough that was the best keyboards, complete of all the features possible.
Not true...Korg released a lot of new feature, V3... HD recording...Roland remake the G-800 to the G-1000 with the HD included, then the VA7...
I have to continue? Understand the concept?

;ediastation is one nice and OPEN system keyboard, born with the Athlon 32Bit CPU and now we produce with the 64Bit CPU, this because the hardware PC changed too.

same is for the OS, 2 years ago the Linux was not so powerfull like now, just read again the windows and Apple story too.

We continue updating the Mediastation OS with new features and for sure more months pass, more new features will be added, BUT this do NOT mean that you have to change the Mediastation, like the other manufacture.

Untill the other manufacture will NOT switch to the PC system, you NEVER can have there the GIGA support, VST plugins, Full internet, Video and Audio production center.
You mean that one your keyboards is ready to open vst? http://www.lionstracs.com/site/images/gui/KONTAKT800.png http://www.lionstracs.com/site/images/gui/REVERB.png http://www.lionstracs.com/data/gui/vst.png

Or open one HDR like protools? http://www.lionstracs.com/site/images/gui/ardour.png

Or play styles with Giga sounds? http://www.lionstracs.com/data/gui/gigapara.PNG

Or streaming styles with full audio files in realtime under cubase sx? http://www.lionstracs.com/site/images/style/ethnocx3.JPG

When they can arrival in our point, will pass YEARS and after this years, what the MS is able to make??

About the high cost of the Mediastation...I think that the official price, Euro 2600 for the standard MS is not so high, the MS Expanded cost officially Euro 3300, less than another Pro Arranger keyb.
Updates in the MS cost FREE and every 20 days are available, in the other keyb you have to continue pay for the new features and styles.

anyway, for what the MS can do right now, is still much more than the other keyboards, of course we have to fix our stuff too, but this happen in any products, Yamaha, Roland, korg too, don't worry.

Example is the Korg Oasys, soon will be available the new OS 1.2 http://www.karma-lab.com/oasys/o_main.html
what it mean? that they untill now have release one NOT complete and BETA keyboard??
Maybe they in the next future will add the GIGA support and MAYBE the VST?

Then is better for you wait more 3-5 years... maybe the windows XP Pro XX 128bit is ready, the Apple X40 256Bit, AMD CPU 512Bit, T-10, E-8000...MAYBE then you can have the RIGHT hardware/software....
Posted by: T42

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/03/06 02:43 PM

Hello Domenik.
Can you please answer my post above, I put do you have a UK distributor where we can all hear and play your instrument?
Posted by: Rolman

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/03/06 02:57 PM

Unfinished products for credulous customer? And they know it?
Posted by: Diki

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/03/06 06:20 PM

I guess, for me, the whole point of an arranger, versus a full-blown workstation, is the instant gratification aspect of it. I have a fully loaded Kurzweil 2500S and a huge library of sample disks, and indeed you can do incredible things with it.

But....... if I want to grab a keyboard out of a box and go gig with anybody, anywhere with no preparation time, I'll get an arranger from one of the top three (and everyone knows my liking for the Roland OS and form factor!) every time.

I can do everything that Mediastation does (mostly) with my home rig with computers and software, along with the K2500 and G70 for extra sounds, but on a gig, to be honest, both the T2 and the G70 have all the capabilities that most live musicians need, and with a minimum of setup and learning curve.

As I said, I believe the computer/keyboard hybrid is the way of the future, but one of the current roadblocks is a sound-set as well developed and tweaked as the best of Roland or Yamaha. Last video I saw of Mediastation in arranger mode, it was triggering the Hyper Canvas VST, a toy compared to the current top of the line Roland sound-set, yet alone the T2's incredible voice selection.

Developing a coherent, comprehensive new sound-set seems to be almost beyond the capabilities of Yamaha and Roland (now that Roland have semi-abandoned the Sound Canvas concept for their G and E lines) and no software plug-in that I've heard yet offers as many different sounds, and more importantly, as well balanced a sound-set.

Remember, it is not sufficient to have a great alto sax sound and a great tenor sax sound (for example)...... they also have to be interchangeable, with an equal power and equal eq requirements, equal 'touch', all the things that make it so, in the middle of a solo, you change from tenor to alto and don't have to make any other adjustment.

Now add in the drum-kits, the different basses, ALL the myriad sounds we all need, and the job of balancing and making consistent is herculean. Even Yamaha (IMHO) never got it as right as the Sound Canvases did. You play an SMF from the original Sound Canvas on any Roland arranger up to the G1000 (the last to use only Sound Canvas samples), and no matter which newer sounds from the G1000 you used to replace the original ones, the balance and eq were still spot on.

This is the achilles heel of the computer/arranger... finding (or developing) a coherent sound-set that rivals the built-in ones of the top three, if the available commercial sound sets have difficulties combining wide choice with wide compatibilities. The big three have had decades to develop their sound-sets, and as of yet (once again IMHO) I haven't heard a commercial sound set that rivals them for across the board compatibility....... (and even Roland, now they have abandoned the Sound Canvas concept, are harder to voice as interchangeably as they used to).

It's easy to add a great Giga piano library, or Giga bass library, etc. to a Mediastation, but it's a far more difficult task to set them up so that they can be called up at any time to replace another sound, and the volume will be perfect, and the eq will be perfect, etc., etc..

Not so much a problem at home or in the studio, but on a gig there is no excuse, no time to tweak, no time to go home and balance it..........
Posted by: to the genesys

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/03/06 11:30 PM

Wow, I never thought I would see the day when innovative and advance musical technology would be looked down upon.

The negative talkers on the mediastation seem to only focus on whether VSTs would work on a live gig. They actually would as long as the processor is fast and reliable IMO. Like you would do with any arranger, you prepare for a gig before the gig. You set-up the keyboard i.e. EQ, sound and style volume adjustment, song list, reverb, effects and so on.

No professional working gigging musician really just plays the on board sounds and styles on an arranger with out tweaking before using the keyboard.

But the ability to use VSTs is just one good feature about the Mediastation. It’s also a full audio workstation. Where as an arranger from one of the big five manufacturers is just for live gigs, the Mediastation and other computer based hardware units would serve a gigging musician who is in to song writing and recording and could take their work on the road in just one unit.

The other “negative” that some persons attribute to the Mediastation is actually a major positive. The fact that the Mediastation is “incomplete” and is always having updates is one of its strongest qualities. It is not that it is really “incomplete” but they are really adding new features to the mediastation as they become available.


Again, the makers of the Mediastation are trying to change the way we think about keyboards. They are trying to make us think in the same way as we think about computer hardware and software. If you buy Sound Forge 7, when they release Sound Forge 8, would you say that Sound Forge 7 was incomplete”? Probably not. Sure Sound Forge 8 probably had some bug fixes but it also offered some updated features and so on. That is how we are taught to think about computer software. And for the most part, you don’t have to change your hardware.


Contrast that with the Yamaha Tyros 1 and Tyros 2.

In order to do an upgrade, Tyros had to get a new hardware. Now if Tyros 1 was built with upgrade in mind, the new features on Tyros 2 should not have required any new hardware changes. New styles, SA voices, systems settings and operational features should not have required Tyros 1 owners having to get new hardware.
With the Mediastation an upgrade like that would never had required a hardware upgrade.

The only thing stopping the Media station from becoming a major player in the keyboard market is A1 PR and marketing and A1 distribution.

But I am sure for those who have a Mediastation and who are gigging with a Mediastation the benefits probably far out way what ever legitimate negatives there are.


BTW, I don’t have a Mediastation nor do I work for the makers of the Mediastation. I am just one who is able to know innovation When I see it, and one who has an open mind and understanding of keyboard and computer technology.
Posted by: Nigel

Re: This thread is for bashing - 09/04/06 12:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Again, the makers of the Mediastation are trying to change the way we think about keyboards. They are trying to make us think in the same way as we think about computer hardware and software. If you buy Sound Forge 7, when they release Sound Forge 8, would you say that Sound Forge 7 was incomplete”? Probably not. Sure Sound Forge 8 probably had some bug fixes but it also offered some updated features and so on. That is how we are taught to think about computer software. And for the most part, you don’t have to change your hardware.


Very well stated. Sure, I think all software driven products should meet a certain operational standard before they are released but I agree that subsequent upgrades are an added bonus.

We already accept this with our computers. A similar attitude must be taken with software driven keyboard systems.