Here's some Hip Hop!

Here's a short sample of my hip hop. I threw this together in a few minutes (no sampling, arps, ect) it's an original beat. It's in MP3 format so naturally sound is compromised a bit.

The trick with hip hop is to make it sound up to date. On this one I mixed some ol'school and nu'school flavors Also at times what makes a great hip hop beat lies in the "simplicity" of the arrangement!

Just a short example of another style of music I like to do.

Squeak
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=13F49A89050747CC

Love it, love it, love it

Nice tight beat great mix.
The only drawback for me is that it was not longer. Ha, ha...

Great job. Nice to hear something else on this forum.

What keyboard did you use?

Looking forward to more.

Eric

Eric,

Glad you liked it. I love writing Hip Hop beats. I kept this one simple because I wanted to show that "simple" isn't always easy. In hip hop you have to be careful "not" to put too much in there. Then you have to make sure your beat is up to date.

I've worked with many Jazz and Classical players who have taken a stab at Hip Hop. It's like taking everything you know in those styles, then simplifying it like there's no tomorrow. Also that doesn't mean that creating a Hip Hop beat is easy and doesn't take talent.

It's very easy to drop an ol'school beat (even by accident). Being a "creative" drum programmer is a "must" when writing Hip Hop, especially if your work is original. Plus aside from drums you need to be able to lay down some funky bass lines too because the drums and bass really are the backbone to it.

Oh I used a Roland.

Squeak

Thanks for the info.

I agree with you: less is more.

I wouldn't mind listening to the finished product.

Eric

Squeak nice job...very cool beat I may add...I love the bass groove.....I'll let me daughter check it also....shes does backup vocals on many Rap Artists projects & see what she thinks too......keep making music my friend its "ALL GOOD"

Thanx for sharing your work with us!

BTW what did yiou use to record this ?


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-19-2006).]

Dnj, I used a Roland. Maybe I'll start posting some of my Hip Hop work here if others take to it.

I really haven't in the past because this style isn't really popular here, and from what I've seen not too many here have any experience with it.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-19-2006).]

Squeake I for one have a open mind to all "Well Performed" Music no matter what genre...I always learn from what I hear & see....keep it coming!!

At age 74 I say bravo Squeak, my taste in music and your talent are not related. Any type of music created by the people on this forum is more than welcome. --- If not, how will I get my music accepted –ha ha ha

Good job squeak, more.

IMHO John C.

Nice job squeak. That bass part sounds like my Juno-106! I have seen some creative people out there able to sell their beats. That might be an avenue for you as well

All the best,

Chris


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=235791

www.mychrisvalenti.com

Chris,
Thanks for the comments! Get this.., the bass I used was called "Juno Bass 1" I took that bass sound, opened up the reso. then set the D-Beam to control "Cutoff".

Squeak

I think that the reason arrangers don't get much respect in the US (we're a small fraction of the total keyboard market) is that there is very little development of styles in these rap and hiphop styles....... Oh yes, you'll find a few on your arranger, but outnumbered by ballroom styles 20-1, 30-1 etc..

Plus they just don't seem to have much 'flava', sort of a middle of the road version of rap.

Tritons and Motifs are FLYING off the shelves in the US, in large part due to the excellent, cutting edge arpeggiated and beat-boxed patches that sound like something phresh off the radio. Try one in the store, you think that you could be a rap star........... Try an arranger, you think you're going to play an old folks home!

BUT.......... there is no technical reason why any of the top-of-the-line arrangers can't make the same beats, but no-one programs them that way! The voicing team that makes the slammin' beats in a FantomX never gets used by Roland to make styles for the G70, etc..

If any of these companies chose to address the needs of the younger (at heart!) generation, rather than their corporate roadmaps, Tyros2's and G70s would be all the rage in the 'hood and their bottom lines would soar!

Because of the simple repetitive nature of modern urban music, arrangers are BY FAR the best tool to make it with (at least live......), and only need better, younger style programmers, and perhaps an SRX board with more urban drumkits and sounds on it (more profit!!) to dominate the workstation market.

After all, just like most other forms of music, it's easier and more fun to do it on an arranger than have to program it on a workstation.........

Well said Diki.

Diki,
You're dead on in your response. I honestly can't see either of the big three making a high end arranger that is capable of producing the same quality of Hip Hop as you could on a Motif, Fantom, or Triton.

It essentially would be something like a Motif with arranger capabilities. I will tell you from personal experience, there will be some difficulty in terms of limitations (even with a high end arranger) when it comes to Hip Hop, Rap, and R&B.

Sure you can program a style, but you really need total freedom (without being restriced to a particular key) when recording the bass part. Also the way an arranger is set up with fills would also make it a little more difficult with both the drums and bass as well.

The closest attempts I know to date to this type of keyboard was the Roland EG-101, and the original Yamaha DJX.

Squeak



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-19-2006).]

Squeak: Though hip hop grooves (in general) aren't my thing, I think the instrument sounds you chose for this sounds very kool. I only wish you'd post a completed song (not merely a sample snippet) for us to hear someday. Keep going on this and share with us after you have it done. - Scott

An excellent effort, Squeak.

Sounds great!

Ian

Hi Squeak

I like the beat, the groove, the sounds and the licks. In other words I really liked everthing except I would have dug more of it.

How do you save these beats? Can you save them in midi format? If so, I'm thinking they can be converted to a style. I would think it could be good because then you could pretty much play on the fly, whereas, at least as I understand it, on a workstation, you set a groove like this and you play with whats there, not being able to change much of anything. Am I correct with that?

Scott

Scott,

Glad you liked the beat There's actually a reason the sample I provided isn't long.

When I create hip hop beats and grooves, they're created for the purpose of a "groove". Meaning to be used in a "groove box" fasion. Synths allow you to do this.

My beats and grooves can be saved in SMF format directly from the keyboard. I have the option of doing this or storing the "pattern internally".

One could take a beat that I have written in SMF format, and use a keyboard or software with a feature that converts SMF's to styles.

If that's done however, the user of course will have to tweek it a bit to their liking then save the settings. I will say this.., if you're going to convert hip hop grooves to styles on an arranger, it would be "very" beneficial if the arranger being used had the ability to (fully edit) the drum kits. Not global edits that affect the entire kit, but rather the ability to edit each part individually.

The problem that I have seen is that arrangers often do not have the drum kits that fit the style. One huge benefit some will have though is having the T2 with the hard drive. You could then load in "more modern" hip hop kits, and use those--in turn bringing a modern sound, and feel to the style.

Squeak

I am not being bias here at all, but the PSR 3000, and the Tyros 2 have excellent R&B and Hip Hop beats.

I am a younger player and I love the modern dance Ibiza/euro type styles and I have tried technics, casio(yes casio..I was poor) and roland, and at the moment the PSR 3K and T2 are awesome for all contemporary genres of music. (not sure about the G70 or E80)

For a long time keyboards have had really tacky old fashioned styles when it comes to "rap" or "hip hop" or "techno" but now its good enough and at the level it should be.

Besides, too many people complain that certain keybaords lack a certain particular style of such.. HELLO its an arranger stop being lazy and make your own!!

Cheers,
Nick

[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 07-21-2006).]

Nick,
I disagree to some extent. I will say that yes, arrangers have come a long way with these styles, but in my opinion still aren't quite there yet. The old Yamaha DJX original (which is quite a few years old now), if set along side the PSR-3000 would make it sound quite poor in terms of those styles (however keep in mind the original DJX was designed "specifically" for hip hop, R&B, rap, techno, and other electronica styles). Why Yamaha didn't continue on with the legacy of the original DJX is something I'll never understand--Plus they sold A LOT of original DJX's. They were also being bought by pros!

I gave the PSR-3000 a good run when I tested it out. Some of the more modern styles on it aren't too bad. I will say the 3000 will do alright with the styles "you" like such as some dance/ibiza, and euro type styles.

However, when it comes to modern hip hop and rap--I'm talking US based, the PSR-3000 lacks the drum kits for these styles. Hip Hop, R&B, and Rap in the US are styles that change "literally" by the hour The sounds are constantly changing. Everytime you turn your head there's a new drum kit created, or bass patch created as well.

I think the T2 would favor a little better, but that's only because it has the option of a hard drive. It can load in new sounds, and samples. That would give the T2 the ability to have a more modern sound and feel for these styles.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-21-2006).]

Posted by Nick:
--------------------------------------------
For a long time keyboards have had really tacky old fashioned styles when it comes to "rap" or "hip hop" or "techno" but now its good enough and at the level it should be.
--------------------------------------------

This I have to disagree with. To get a better understanding I suggest you put a PSR-3000 along side a Triton Studio/Extreme, Yamaha Motif, or Roland Fantom.

Listen to the patterns on these workstations, and also pay close attention to the "kits" used for them. With no disrespect to the PSR-3000, but it couldn't even come close to a Motif, Fantom, or Triton. That's not to say the 3000's poor, but these synths are designed to handled these styles, and do it well. They have the horse power to do it, as well as the sound sets, ability to expand upon the sound sets, and sequencers also designed to handle the production of these styles more efficiently--meaning "groove box style".

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-21-2006).]

Squeek,

what your saying is definitely true about the lack of drum kits and samples, but for ON BOARD FACTORY STYLES, I really beleieve the PSR 3k and the T2 would have to be on top of the arranger market

I have one off topic question for all PSR 3k owners or people who have just used the board for an evaluation of such...

Were u using the on board built in speakers ONLY or was it hooked to a bigger speaker setup??

If you only listen to this board using the built in speakers, I would say your REALLY missing out..Drums sound tinny, everything is bland and completely lacks punch...

Especially for the modern dance and R&B styles...

Cheers

I agree they 3K and T2 have come a long way (or just Yamaha in general) with these styles. However, personally I feel Korg's and Roland's upper end arrangers handle them a little better (my opinion of course).

Oh I'm also one of the younger members here as well, not really young, but no where near retirement. I'm sitting quite comfortable in the 30+ category

I've been shaking my arse to hip hop, rap, and R&B since the early and mid 80's (back when those styles put the "cheese" in the industry)

Squeak



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-21-2006).]

I realise most people in this forum are above 40 or 50 so I guess Hip Hop and Bro Ibiza 2004 beats arent very popular

Yeah you may be right on that one That's why I posted a demo of some hip hop. I thought I'd bring a new (rarely heard) style to the forum. Maybe spice things up a bit--change is always good

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-21-2006).]

Squeak,
you really have to take a look in Hypersonic2.

Synths and basses galore!!!

And thw wife won't notice...

I'm over 50. It's not the beats that are a problem for me, it's the lack of a melody line. My young roomate plays dance music. Just came back from a block party thrown by Chrysler, were they had a DJ playing dance music. The beat is great, but I get bored after a while, cause that's all there is. No melody, no catchy chorus like the Dixie Chicks, no instrumental lead voices, just a beat. Just an opinion from an old guy.
Starkeeper

Starkeeper,
I agree that some is boring and lacks melody, I couldn't tell you any artists names off the top of my head, but I've hung out with friends who listen to dance music, and much of the music they played had melodies as well.

Possibly some of the makers focus more on the beat, and others focus on a strong beat, and melodies.

Squeak

It doesn't matter what current arranger has the 'best' hiphop or rap beats in it, because, as I said in my first post, they are a tiny fraction of the whole soundset. One or two great beats are not going to drive a block party - you wouldn't use an arranger that only had two or three ballroom styles (or whatever you're into), and no young player is going to get worked up about an arranger with two or three semi-lame urban styles.

For arrangers to sell well in the US (young players with plenty of disposable income is the wet dream of the industry!) they are finally going to have to develop styles that won't embarrass a young playa in front of his friends!

squeak, you're right about the DJX....... they sold a boatload of those, why didn't the light come on?

I think the arrangers with sampling capabilities are the answer, but the manufacturers have GOT to implement USB 2 for loading them - currently it's WAY too slow for live use.

We also need to put pressure on the arranger makers to allow us to make ANY track a 'drum' track - in other words, even if it uses a melodic element, not just a drum kit, we should be able to disable the transposing of it when we change chords in the left hand (I don't know of any arranger that does this, but I'm only really familiar with Rolands).

A couple of changes to the OS and a faster way to load samples, and I think the arranger market would EXPLODE..........!

Squeak you are more than able to create great sounding hip hop styles/grooves in the T2 and the S90ES (which has the Motif sound set in it), it's simply a case of being able to use and program well what you have purchased

Diki,
You are SPOT ON! The arranger market WOULD explode if they started making them with the "modern minded" musician in mind.

The original DJX proves that. As you stated they sold a mother of a "boatload" of DJX's. Then they insulted all the DJX supporters and released that half-assed DJXII. Yes the light should have come on with the original model. I knew many music stores that couldn't keep those things in stock!

The makers certainly can make a good modern style based arranger. However, they're all businesses that see "green". A killer (decent) priced pro-modern style arranger would compete "directly" with the synth market. If Yamaha and other's did this you better bet your arse they'll smack a $3,000 or more price tag on it.

Squeak



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-21-2006).]

Craig,
I know you can do this with the S90ES (because as you stated it does have the Motif soundset).

You can do it to some degree with the T2 as well--but that's really just because (IMO) of the optional hard drive which would let you load in new samples.

I think a Korg or Roland high end arranger would favor better for (out of the box) Hip Hop though. That's because (IMO) Korg and Roland do a better job at "synth" sounds, and (IMO) I think you get better voice editing options with a Korg or Roland.

Squeak

Squeak I think you should take a look more at the T2 with your eyes open this time. The editing facilities give you the opportunity to make great sounding bass, pad and synth sounds that can easily rival and compete with the S90ES and even my old Korg Triton IMO).
It's obvious to me that you love Roland and Korg more, but the editing facilities of the T2 when linked to the PC (OR NOT FOR SQUEAKS SAKE) are far superior to what the G70 ever gave me. No idea what you get with Korg in terms of editing.
Anyway enough of this tit for tat I've got better things to waste my time on

[This message has been edited by Craig_UK (edited 07-21-2006).]

Do I like Roland...???? Do I truly like them more? I'd probably have to say NO. Because if I did there wouldn't be a Yamaha MO8 sitting in my set up. In the arranger department I'd favor a Roland, but in synths I like Both Yamaha and Roland. Korg hasn't really tickled my pickle.

---------------------------------------------
, but the editing facilities of the T2 when linked to the PC are far superior to what the G70 ever gave me.
---------------------------------------------

There you have it--hooked up to a computer. Can the same level of control be achieved from within the T2.

I NEVER LOOK AT A KEYBOARD WITH MY EYES CLOSED. Please don't say such offensive things to me. I'm a di-hard Hip Hop nut. I've been writing it for a VERY LONG time. I know the tools of the trade (just as the "traditional" arranger players know their tools of the trade), I also know that to date (NO ARRANGER) has (EVER) sat up there with the likes of a Motif, Triton, and Fantom when it comes to writing Hip Hop, Rap, and R&B.

That doesn't make arrangers bad. They just are not designed for it. Arrangers have always been geared towards traditional styles. There have been the few exceptions such as the DJX and the EG-101.

Squeak



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-21-2006).]

Folks let me add something here. With all do respect to the many great musicians here..., I would never in a million years try to tip the cup on any of you by preaching to you on a music style that's not my forte, and styles that other's here have years more experience in than I do.

So with that in mind please respect my position (and my knowledge) in the area of HIP HOP in that I have years of experience writing this style of music, and that this style is not the norm on this forum.

Also that I know what gear fits the needs of a Hip Hop artist. Despite what some are saying the Tyros 2 OUT OF THE BOX will NOT produce the same quality of Hip Hop, that you'd find on a unit designed with that style in mind--arranger's just don't fit the bill PERIOD.

I would never tell a great jazz player such as Scott Yee (personally not being no where near his skill level in that style of music), what arranger keyboard is best for him--or anything related to Jazz--since that isn't my strongest area.

If you're not into a style such as Hip Hop how can anyone preach to me... the MANY benefits of having a TyrosII and how it will perform in that style of music.

Also keep in mind LOCATIONS. Hip Hop, Rap, and R&B are huge US based industries--sure our artists tour overseas, but there are differences in the same genres from different corners of the world.

Squeak

Squeak. I don't consider myself even 1/20th as good as what is expected of a true jazz player. My only real connection to jazz is that I studied & played jazz in college. the closest thing to jazz I play now are what they call the jazz standards, and I'm not even talking about Charlie Parker & Miles Davis, but Gershwin, Porter, & Hoagy Carmichael Standards played with a swing and/or latin rhythm. My specialty is the Great American Songbook (songs from the 20's thru the 60's). I consider myself more of a musical stylist, I enjoy performing (with my own interpretation) the Country & R&B Standards as well. - Scott

I understand Scott, but I didn't study Jazz in college, so you'll know way more about the area than I wil--since it's not my stong point.

Also you're into into the era that you mentioned. I myself--not being a skilled musician in those area wouldn't NEVER think about schooling you in what you need or what you need to do

It just bother's me to see other's here, who have no experience in Hip Hop telling me what I need and what I don't need to get the job done.

Squeak

Squeak puts Tyros 2 OUT OF THE BOX will NOT produce the same quality of Hip Hop, that you'd find on a unit designed with that style in mind--arranger's just don't fit the bill PERIOD.

If arrangers don't fit the bill PERIOD then why put in your opinion Korg and Roland are better for synth sounds and editing when it comes to out of the box hip hop above? What you've just posted goes against your previous post. Are you just trying to say the T2 is crap for synth sounds?
Obviously no arranger is going to match a dedicated synth or module where it's main use and sound set is geared for hip hop.
Having read some of your previous posts on SZ it makes my a*se laugh as you contradict yourself on the odd occasion.

What are you talking about? I KNOW I'm not the ONLY one here who has said ROLAND AND KORG give you better voice editing options with their upper end arrangers.

Hell even the Casio MZ-2000 has more voice editing power than the PSR-3000. I PERSONALLY feel that Roland and Korg have had a better quality of SYNTH sounds when compared to Yamaha.

I never said the synth sounds in the Tyros2 were crap. You can go on and on defending the Tyros 2 and it's ability to produce (modern hip hop) all you want, but if you really want to see what I'm talking about by all means drop some "modern hip hop" beats on the T2 and post for all hear to listen to.

Seriously "prove me wrong". I have no problem saying geeee you may be right. So prove me wrong. I'm telling your from personal experience, that currently NO arranger on the market will give you the same level of hip hop you'd find on a synth.

Again if you think otherwise prove me wrong.

Squeak

It would be interesting, if squeak has an arranger (I can't find quickly what arranger you DO have) to have him give it his best shot at creating a hiphop or rap style......

If you can create beats in a Yamaha MO, have a crack at what CAN be achieved in your arranger to illustrate the differences in sound and approach.

After all, despite them being few and far between, the big three DO have playable styles in these genres, just not enough and not enough 'street' on them, so despite the technical limitations of the arranger, it IS possible........

It's just that no-one has gotten around to trying to make their own that has any feel for the style........

Just a note of history....... although I'm 50 now (except from the neck upwards!), and make a living playing for tourists in Florida , back in '81/'82 I used to live in Manhattan and hung with the Sugarhill Gang and knew the Furious Five and Afrika Bombaataa. Great days, great times, but few of us predicted how it would rule the world 25 years later...........

Diki,
That's just it.., I've dropped arrangers and written them off for this style of music because of the limitations.

All I have are synths now. I'm going to buy another arranger (soon hopefully) for the more "traditional" styles.

Believe me if I had a T2 or G-70 or other arranger in my hands I'd be throwing the A-B comparison up in a minute.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-21-2006).]

You got a buddy with one???

Yeah don't I wish I had old buddies that owned the PSR-9000, 9000 Pro, and the Roland VA-7. We put those models through the test, and had a better time cracking a beer, and laughing at the attempt afterwards

If any of the big three released a more modern style based arranger tomorrow, I without question would find a way to get it. I'm still waiting.., and hopefully Yamaha builds on the legacy of the original DJX.

Squeak

Guys, I am giving everyone in SZ an opinion from a 22 year old who has been brought up with Hip Hop, R&B and Modern Dance.

The New Yamaha boards (T2 and PSR3k) are definitely way ahead in that department IMO (FOR ARRANGERS ONLY - NOT MOTIF OR MO SERIES)...

I have heard all the G70 styles and some from the Korg PA Series and the Technics KN7. Yamaha is definitely the closest to the real thing.. thats virtually the reason why I chose yamaha in the first place, becuase of its modern contemporary beats and synth sounds..(I dont tend to play so much the Jazz, soul, gospel, or country styles)

I have never heard a better dance drum kit on any other board in terms of quality and punch as on the Yamaha's

The PSR 3K probbably doesnt have the editing capabilities as much, but I have found myself not needing to even bother since Yamaha has got it spot on from the start anwyays...

I spent sooooo much time on my old KN 6500 editing and tweaking basses and drum kits and could never get anywhere near what comes preset with the Yamaha...

If you want to hear some examples I can email MP3 demos of the preset styles on request (UN TWEAKED)...

Cheers

[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 07-21-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 07-21-2006).]

thanks for the beats Squeak. I didnt get a chance to comment before. well done sir !!!

Diki wrote:
"We also need to put pressure on the arranger makers to allow us to make ANY track a 'drum' track - in other words, even if it uses a melodic element, not
just a drum kit, we should be able to disable the transposing of it when we change chords in the left hand (I don't know of any arranger that does this,
but I'm only really familiar with Rolands)."

This can be done on the Gem Genesys. I can get 8 drum tracks in a style on the Genesys and the track does not transpose when you change left hand chords. Actually, Gem has had this feature to my knowledge since 1997.

Hiphop on arrangers.
As a person who has been producing beats for over 10 years, (hiphop being one of the genres) I would say it is possible to produce a good hiphop beat on a high-end arranger.

Now you can not do a whole hiphop CD all from an arranger, but you can get a real good sounding beat on a high-end arranger if you are creative, you know your keyboard and you put in the time to make a beat.

If people are saying that you can not make good modern sounding hiphop beats on an arranger, and that is based on a PSR 3000 or other arrangers in that group, then it is not the full story.


You really have to try it on a high-end arranger and know how to use the editing features of the arranger. When I say editing, I am not just talking about sound editing, but also effects editing, EQing, the use of the pitch bend and so on. Obviously, the ability of the arranger to sample or to load sounds and samples is crucial.


I suppose you can start with factory hiphop styles and edit it, but as others have stated here, hiphop styles on an arranger a just not good.

I was more talking about creating something from scratch.


I have done this on my Genesys. I have found some bass drum sounds that work for hiphop. I say “found” because unless you take the time to explore the keyboard and go beyond the first 3 or 4 pages of sounds you would not know they are their.

Then with the sound editing capabilities and effects you tweak it until you get something good and fresh.

I know a lot of persons who like to rhyme to some of my beats created on my Genesys.


Even persons who made beats on Motifs and Tritons always said they like some of the drum and synth sounds on the Genesys even with out tweaking the sounds or effects. You see, on the Motifs and Tritons, in order to get good sounding drum and other sounds, you have to use effects and EQ.


As stated here, the sounds of hiphop changes almost weekly so what you can do and sounds good today, is old news next week. The Triton and the MPC was and still are to some extent the number 1 hiphop tool then the Motif. Now it has just busted open to computer softsynths. Basically, now it is any thing goes. What ever you can use to make your beats to sound good, fresh and different is acceptable. You have to be creative and think out of the box.


O K I think I have let enough cats out of the bag.



[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 07-22-2006).]