Does learning the piano make a better arranger player?

Hi all,
I started playing keys on an arranger 9 years ago and having no music experience before hand.
After about 4 years learning the arranger mostly from written music I started to slow down in my skill level and didnt seem to get alot better after.
2 years ago I decided to start learning the piano and started to read the bass cleff.I didnt really play much on an arranger until now and I have found that I am way more advanced at playing an arranger now and find it very easy to improvise around the music only having to read the treble cleff.

It seems whilst I continue to learn the piano I have to practice very robotic and strict playing techniques but when playing on the arranger I let myself go and play with ease,if you know what I mean.

Did most of the proes come from playing pianos and organs in the arranger buisness or were they just good vocalists who didnt neet to much keyboard playing skill?

Regards,
Daz

Hi Daz, as a vocal-keyboard entertainer I'd say that having started formal piano lessons at 4 gave me a big edge in making keyboard playing feel second nature, like walking, but like anything else, if you don't continually use whatever skills you've developed, you'll eventually lose it. I embarassingly have to admit that I've regretably lost most of the classical chops I once had.

On the topic of arranger vs solo piano/keyboard: They are different instruments requiring uniquely different skills to sound good. My childhood music teacher once told me "the piano (keyboard) is perhaps the easiest instrument to grasp the 'basics' of music with, but the most difficult to 'master'.

Scott

"My childhood music teacher once told me "the piano (keyboard) is perhaps the easiest instrument to grasp the 'basics' of music with, but the most difficult to 'master'."

Your piano teacher must have been talking about me when she said that. The only difference is that I never mastered either.

Gary

I have yet to find a piano player that can easily adjust to just playing chords with the left hand. They all want to keep the left hand moving, playing notes.
It must be hard to think that simple after years of playing left hand piano runs and patterns.
DonM

As a guitar player as well as playing keyboards I know the pros and cons of each very well.

Keyboard Pros:
The piano keyboard is laid out in such a linear manner that grasping the concepts of keys, scales and chord construction is very logical and visual. The guitar is very different with the same note in the same octave appearing in multiple locations on the fret board on different strings. On a keyboard every note is unique.

Keyboard Cons:
Changing key on a keyboard by even a semitone requires very different fingering due to the difference in white keys and black keys required. On a guitar it is simply a shift of a fret otherwise it is identical fingering wise.

When it comes down to it every instrument is different and have their strengths and weaknesses but that is also what gives each its own special musical character.

Anyone who thinks piano/keyboard is the most difficult to master has never tried violin. To me it is the most incredibly difficult instrument to get the correct intonation out of, add to that there are 2 totally different skills required between fingering and bowing. My cudos go out to anyone who becomes even just proficient on it. And Perlman, Midori.....fogedaboudit!
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 02-14-2004).]

LOL, I've never even tried to play a violin but it has always seemed to me that in order to do it well you almost have to have palsy in order to get the right amount of vibrato in the fretting hand. Never did figure out how they keep the thing tucked under their chin, shake one hand and bow with the other, but, LOL I have trouble chewing gum and walking at the same time. However, since I use the same chord fingerings for a lot of my organ playing (as well as reading written music for some of it) I find chording an arranger keyboard a "natural" thing to do.

Tom

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Bigger is not always better

when playing left hand chords its not too hard because you stay within the octave,what i find incredible is how piano players drop up and down octaves without looking at the keys, bearing in mind that they do it with both hands at the same time,it certainly can be a difficult instrument to master ,mike

Believe it or not, in addition to piano, I studied violin and performed in the school orchestra (4th thru 7th grade). Like Nigel, I think that every instrument has its own challenges. The primary difference between a string instrument (like the violin) & the piano (percussion) is that with a string instrument (like singing) you have to train your ear (listen) to reproduce the correct pitch, whereas when playing the piano, the pitch is fixed. This affords the beginning piano student to easily learn a simple song (in tune) whereas the violin requires technique & ear training to play that same tune. On the other hand, the piano requires the understanding of orchestration, chord mastery to balance inner voicings, and often multiple melodic/counter melodies, often emulating different orchestral instruments. On the other hand, violin is primarily a single melodic line (not chordal) instrument.

The keyboard (piano/organ) was the sole 19th century instrument used to emulate the 'entire orchestra'. Many orchestral composers did their composing on the piano.

Before the age of 20th century recording, the piano was the only way to hear what orchestrated music sounded in your home. All the classical compositions of the time were routinely transcribed for piano. The goal of classical composers/performers was to write/perform piano muisc to re-create the instruments of the orchestra. Piano Masters like Vladimir Horowitz were able to give the impression you are listening to an entire orchestra on the piano alone. Ok, for those of you who've already fallen asleep, you can wake up now. Class is OVER! - Scott

Lets not forget that being a Good Arranger player requires being a scientist of sorts....being a Piano or Arranger Keyboard player is secondary to making lightning fast changes & navagting all over your KB....all tis while your being just a Piano player of sorts.
Playing piano is JUST THAT....
But... Playing an Arranger
KB is so much more.....and is a very unique artform that must be praticed constantly to be good at it. You must THINK LIKE A FULL BAND & that includes knowing what each instrument your playing at once can be capable of & playing it proficiently like THAT INSTRUMENT Should Be Played....
I see this Flaw in peoples playing all the time...eg: you dont play Brass like an Electric piano, etc.....this topic is very complicated and is very involed in many many aspects with just one answer NOT Acceptable...it needs to be disected and discussed piece by piece to be really explored corectly.....
Don't fool yourself Arranger KB Playing is
SERIOUS BUSINESS MY FRIENDS!!!

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www.donnypesce.com

If Beethoven only had an arranger, a Tyros of course.

Scott

I played piano for 24 years, (plus accordion, brass and reeds), then turned in my union card and got serious about my businesses. I then played organ for the next 15 years. I then got the first keyboard and have been playing them since.
I can still play the organ sortof but on the piano I now sound like a third year average student, and it kills my wrists to play the piano now.
Bebop

He wouldn't be able to scrunch up his fingers to play the orchestrations !
He might have had to write the
Moonlight Sonatina !
.... hee hee.....

Uncle Dave, I suppose because Beethoven became deaf, at least "he" wouldn't have minded that it was a 'mute' keyboard. - Scott

hee hee... good one !

I think having a good musical base/knowledge really separates who you are as a musician.

An arranger should be an instrument only to 'enhance' or accompany your performance.

I know a guy who is 'okay' as far as playing the music, but he is REALLY good with utilizing my Triton Studio's arpegiator and other features. I actually prefer to see somebody who is already good with performing only a piano (or a Rhodes) a small drum and a bass. Just my opinion

P.S I tried playing Violin before. My first and only piece was "twinkle twinkle little star"

Im going to carry on with progressing the piano and going through the abrsm piano grades.
Im currently doing a grade 5 and my teacher tells me if I pass this grade in piano that would be equivalent to a grade 8 in the arranger keyboard which is the top grade.
My teacher also said playing a arranger would be very easy after going through the grades on a piano and now I think he is wight.
Part of passing the grades there is the theory side also and it is here where Im finding Im making advances in my music towards composing melodys,improvisation and cadences.
I would suspect most of you have already got this experience from childhood and forgot more than I have learned.
But I think your never to old to just learning the basics.

Thanks for your replys.
Regards,
Daz.

To me the continuing learning process of anything in music makes us better players.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

I started on the accordion adn moved to the organ. Only later did I learn how to make sounds on the piano (I don't play like a real pianist, but I have an acceptable style) and then become proficient on arranger. Even all of these keyboards have differnt pros and cons. The one thing I appreciated learning on the accordion is the left hand - circle of fifths going up and fourths going down, thirds immediately in front. The organ helped my chording tremendously. The piano, which I truly love, helped me spread out my hands and work on bass and chords. The arranger has helped me return to the right hand, where I almost forgot how to solo.

I agree that most piano players I've met have a hard time playing anything else, as the style must change with the instrument. A lot of pianist I know READ too much. I read OK, but wish I read better; I've always been a rememberer and a player from the heart not the paper.

When you stop learning, and this holds true with all facets of life, that's when the little old ladies are looking down in your coffin and saying "Don't he look peaceful--just like he's sleeping." Old men don't do this because they're always the first ones in the coffin.

The learning process is never ending, especially with keyboards. I've owned my 2000 since they first hit the street, and through some folks think I know every aspect of this wonderful machine, I'm continuously discovering new and amazing features. I agree with Donny--the synth is so much more than any other instrument and requires a great deal of not only musical/entertainment talents, but engineering skills as well. It's a brand-new world out there for single entertainers to explore.

Gary

That wouldn't have been much of an advantage, since he was deaf for a great portion of his life. Besides that, a musical genius like Beethoven never needed anything like that. Composers like him had the supernatural gift of "hearing" an entire orchestra play while he wrote it. This also explains how he could go on composing even without hearing a thing later in his life.

Skills like the one Beethoven posessed, are gone forever. There are no composers around anymore that could write music the way the "old guys" did, often not even using a piano but "just" a harpsichord.

Well, it may be clear that I have a deep respect for people like Beethoven. And of course you meant it as a joke, but really, there is no arranger in this world, nor will there ever be one, that will turn anyone into Beethoven. Far from that, even. Since playing an arranger may be "serious business" for some of us here, to me it's nothing more -and- nothing less(!) than playing along with a precooked backing band. WHICH IS FINE, and hard enough as it is, but don't let anyone ever think that playing an arranger keyboard will make you a great composer

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Roland EXR-5 user - http://www.exr5.tk

In about 1957 I owned an old beat up upright for a month or so. I had been playing the sax for about 2 years. My band teacher taught me the concept of picking the 1st 3rd and 5th note of the scale to make a chord adding 7ths and so forth.

We had a piano in the band room. One day I was playing the simple Fats Domino intro to "Blueberry Hill" and also the triplet rhythm, when the vocalist teacher was passing in the hall. I was in the band room alone.

She walked up amazed and asked me to do that again. After watching she wanted to try and could not play the triplet chords with the right hand and a simple bass pattern with the left hand. She was a super, let me repeat that, a super stride pianist.

She stopped by a week or two later and made me do it again and she still couldn't do it. She had been a piano player and vocalist teacher for 20 years or more. I had been fooling with the piano for 2 months. She just couldn't get the triplet rhythm and left handed bass lick going which I thought was simple. If it were difficult, I wouldn't be able to do it. She just couldn't feel it.

Everybody's different. That's why you see 10 year olds playing difficult classical piano and yet we have people playing for 30 years and still play everything on the guitar in E, A, D and have never gotten past strumming.

With me, it's trying to learn all of the tech stuff with recording etc, it's taking it's toll.

We all have certain things we can do. For example Gary and I can out cook and out fish all you guys put together with our eyes closed. Donny can out eat all of us. Fran's the ugliest guy here, but he's got the best looking women hanging around him and Dave can carry more buckets than we can.

Got em' again!!

Where's my laptop? Don't forget the soft synth, OK buddy? I'm polishing up the i5s. Boy it cleanded up like new when I put that Muratic Acid on it that I use to clean bricks. Acid doesn't hurt plastic, but I can't figure out why all that fizz and smoke came from inside of it. There may have been some extra dirt in side or maybe some cement.

Got em' again. That's twice in the same post! That's a record. Boy this is still a great day.

Boo can you post a recent pic of yourself, if not email it to me....I gotta see who's writing all hese ineresting posts...I enjoy reading them!

Donny I don't have pic for the internet. That's more high tech. Maybe I can get my friend at the coffee shop to do a pic.

Burkels: Yes, of course I meant what I said as: " ONLY a joke!" Btw, I was playing my arranger kb today and came up with a new song for my friend Elise. Wonder if it's destined to become a hit. - Scott

Scott,
You didn't say that. You couldn't have. Naw...


Boo,this laptop is hummin' YOUR tunes, baby !

Well, there are of course a lot of lovesongs around already. You got to make sure it stands out... Maybe giving it a German title will make it different enough for people to notice it?



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Roland EXR-5 user - http://www.exr5.tk

Scott "the piano guy" Huston says that if you want to play classical music then you should learn to read music (treble & bass clef). If you want to play pop music, you only have to learn the treble clef and chord symbols, and don't even bother with bass clef. He says, most people don't have trouble playing the piano, they have trouble transcribing the written notes. I can identify with that. I'm not saying to stop taking music lessons, theory is important, and what other lessons are there? There is no such thing as organ or keyboard lessons. Sigh.
Starkeeper

I couldn't disagree more. As if there is no such thing as bass patterns in popmusic. As if there is no such thing as bass-inversion.

No? It's quite common here... Every music-school in this country offers keyboardlessons, you can even do it at home, through mailorder courses (you send your homework via the net -MP3- or by mail -tapes-)



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Roland EXR-5 user - http://www.exr5.tk

1) I was quoting Scott Houston. His point is that the bass clef is a creation of the arranger (person, not the keyboard) and not necessarily the arrangement of the orignal artist. Therefore, you can substitute your own bass clef pattern. Learning to play EXACtly like the arrangement takes the fun and ease out of playing.
2) I don't see any organ/keyboard lessons/courses on the web or in Canada. Lots of piano courses though.
Burkels,
You have new mail re. your EXR-5.
Starkeeper


[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 02-16-2004).]