This makes me angry.

Why is it that most arrangers with mic inputs still make us use 1/4" adapters? There are hundreds of mics ranging in price for $20 up to as much as you want to pay--all with XLR connectors. They are called Low Impedance mics. They are the industry standard. Even most Churchs now use them. Why should $3-$4000.00 keyboards have inputs that call for a toy mic? What world are the keyboard manufacturers living in? Other than the Yamaha Pro and SD1, they all must be designing these keyboards with their heads up their. . . in a dark place.
Yamaha!! is that asking too much for a $3000. Tyros? I bet they don't answer, or if they do they'll have some excuse like holding the cost down. Damn the cost. I'll pay the extra $5.00 (high estimate) for an XLR input.
DonM

Aren't the microphone input jack both high and low impedance on the Yamaha? Just because the jack is a quarter inch jack doesn't mean that it isn't balanced. This give people the ability to use either a cheap high impedance mic, or a low impedance microphone. I haven't used the Tyros microphone jack, but from what my memory of the PSR 9000, I didn't need a impedance matching transformer to use a low impedance microphone.

Don & Paul,

Almost all mic-inputs are 'low impedance' these days and I expect the 6.3mm jack-inputs to be UNbalanced.
I agree with Don saying the 6.3mm jack is toyish and not a good connector for mic-signals :
The tip, ring and housing get dirty because people touch the metal parts......(salty body fluids etc) and this causes signal loss / bad contacts.

I prefer hiQ XLR's with goldplated-contacts AND a 'lock' mechanism to keep it in place.
The contacts are hard to touch because they are protected by the XLR body.

The PRO and SD1 both have XLR inputs but I'm not 100% sure they are BALANCED inputs.
(XLR's are no guarantee for this)

Roel

Roel , have you weighed them ? Dano

I don't really care if they are balanced, I just don't want to have to buy special cables or adapters. It's an unnecessary nuisance, because XLR connectors are the industry standard.
DonM

On the PSR740 the mic input is 50k unbalanced and uses a cheap mic amp (LM358). It's also filtered quite a bit - 10db down at 10kHz, so it's not a serious attempt at fidelity. Yamaha market these keyboards as home keyboards. I think the average user wouldn't know XLR from the rear end of a horse. All the folks I know (present company excepted) are amateur home users who just want to play a tune or two and probably never use the mic input. I don't use it either as I can't sing anyway though I sometimes use it as a line input.

The 740 mic did sound pretty awful. Big improvements on the 2K and 9k and of course the Pro. Even the 8K sounded good.
Maybe I'm in the minority thinking that it should matter to more of us. It seems like such a simple thing, making the mic in an XLR, but then they would have people griping about not having a 14" input, so they would have to have two. Now that's a novel idea.
I wonder why I don't get an SD1. It seems to have everything I want except multi-pads.
DonM

Hello Don,

I will assume that you wouldn't want them to stop there, right? How 'bout the mic amp in the keyboard? The most expensive, gold-plated Neutrik connector made ain't gonna matter if they put crappy electronics down the line, right?

Wouldn't that make great advertisement...We use the same op-amps in our mic input-stage that the Mackie 1202 VLZ uses.

..precision-engineered XDR(tm) Extended Dynamic Range premium studio-grade mic preamps with:
Ultra-wide 0-60dB gain range
130dB dynamic range for 24-bit, 192kHz sampling rate inputs
+22dBu line input handling
Distortion under 0.0007% (20Hz-20kHz)

Now that's some specs to be proud of.

mike

Dan01 : I did not weight them. Could you please do this for us ?
I expect you to have the Pro in your shop !?

I just checked the SD1 manual and it says the MICRO 1 is balanced XLR ..... and I believe it's true.

DonM : You are right, the SD1 has (almost) everything and both 'jack' and XLR.
As an extra the SD1 also has MIC-OUTPUTS (a kind of insert-point out without a return.

Roel

HULLA-BALU!

Mike :
Are you hi-Z or lo-Z ?
I would not dare to say Yamaha put 'crappy electronics down the line' .... It's not my favourite instrument but still a nice good sounding machine.

Twonuts :
Please translate your comment ! (I'm a dutchie)

Now more serious :
Mike has a point. A keyboard is a keyboard and not a hi-Q microphone preamp.
I myself never used the MIC-in's of keyboards I owned. None of them performed well enough to use in my homestudio or on stage :
Too noisy, almost no headroom, gain-adjustment very poor, clipping, complex to change parameters as EQ's and effects... etc.

For stage use I purchased a VERY inexpensive Behringer 6 channel mixer that has :
Two BALanced XLR inputs with Phantom-power.
Good EQ's that can be adjusted within a second.
Enough headroom and clip-warning LED's.
2 stereo line-inputs with full EQ's.
The Behringers' price was about 60 USD.
The tiny nanoverb (Alesis) has a much better reverb for singers than most keyboards have.

In the homestudio there is a 1202VLZ Mackie that costs 6 times the Behringer price... and has Balanced I/O YESSSS !!

Roel

Roel,

Is the SD1 Mic-output taken before or after the harmonizer? Thanks,

-- José.

MIC-1 output is taken after the harmonizer.
Unfortunately this implies the harmonizer sounds in MONO.

Roel

[This message has been edited by Roel (edited 02-18-2003).]

Roel,

Last night, it was no-Zzz's. Stupid dog, keeps jumping into our bed around 2:00 AM.

Now hang on there buddy, I didn't mean to imply that the Yamaha in particular used crappy electronics in their mic input stage (although I can see where one would think that) Nope, my comment was meant to be more of a "food for thought" kind of a thing. If they're going to do it right, then do it right all the way!

You did follow up very nicely in the next paragraph.

I can certainly understand Don's point and I agree. XLR connectors for microphones (and other inputs and outputs) would be a good reflection of the manufacturer's understanding of the business.

With that said, are we to assume that because of the lack of those type of connectors coming out of the factories, that this indicates the manufacturer's lack of understanding?

mike

"With that said, are we to assume that because of the lack of those type of connectors coming out of the factories, that this indicates the manufacturer's lack of understanding?"
That would be a logical assumption. Either that or it's cheaper to build.
Elaborating a little, I generally use an external mixer, Mackie 1202 or Behringer, and run my mic(s) into that. I then use a Send to route the mics back to the keyboard.
This way I can use the keyboard effects and harmonizer on more than one mic, in case of a guest singer. Also, it allows me to use phantom power mics when I want to.
However, on the small jobs such as nursing homes, I often want to take as little gear as possible. In these instances I run the mic directly into the keyboard, and the keyboard out to a small p.a. or powered speakers.
I find the mic sound and the harmonizer in the PSR2000 more than adequate for most jobs. It is crisp and clear with virtually no noise, when adjusted correctly. If you use the harmonizer properly it works fine for my applications.
I sometimes use the compressor/limiter on my mic, and I find the onboard effects and seperate mic e.q. easy to access and use.
The XLR input is not a life-or-death point, it would just seem perfectly logical to have one.
DonM

Mike :
It was sooo easy to 'misunderstand' you !!

Roel