The G70 adventure & review

The G70 arrived yesterday and I spent several hours of playing with it.

I still own the SD1 as well, so there is somthing to compare with.
Exploring the G70 was pretty easy but the most disappointing things are the styles.

Sure there is a kind of progression in variations, stepping from var1, var2, var3 to var4 but minimal. The same guitar that starts in var1 is playing excactly the same notes in all vars. e.g. Only a hihat, rimshot or ride cymbal is added.

I'm not used to this inexpensive 'solutions' and expect a much better job from the programmers.
The styles are created by technicians, not by musicians..... in other words : No musical feel at all.

The Leslie sim, with only one DSP (low speaker) lets the Harmonic Bar sound poor.

The demo songs are not recorded with the use of styles, probably on an external sequencer. I wished I could find one style that has the quality of the demosongs..... no way, there is nohing like that in the styles. The guitars all sound the same.

The SFX sounds, seem to be an exact copy of the ones in the very first Canvas SC55 ?
(Is this 'the best' from Roland?)

None of the three velocity curves is OK to get the good Xpiano sound... at least for me.

The G70 twice locked up and the accompany chords were not processed correctly. Reboot needed.

The songbook contains about 500 songs. Different names, yes, but many identicals,
(Somebody did a rush job)

The G70 has a GM2-logo on it, but playback of a GM2 midifile did not impress me at all.
The quality of SD1 playback of the same file was fantastic. (The SD1 has no GM2-logo)

The bass has no 'body' (no punch).
The brass just sound to Canvas-alike
Some fill-ins do not fit correctly in the time-path.

I do realize one needs time to get used to new sounds, but this one ? ...... I will never get used to a 3000€ machine that performs like a 500€ keyboard

I was told the current G70 is fully engineered/developed at this moment.

In my view Roland needs another 12 months the redo their homework and give it another try in dec 2005

I swapped from Roland G70 to PA1X. The PA1X sounds amazing to me, while the max polyphony is only 62 !

Roel, I'm really disapointed to hear your bad news about the G70 as I really had high hopes for Roland to finally come thru with a winner. On the Upside though, I just saved myself money, realizing that my Yamaha Tyros continues to best suit my keyboard performance requirements. This month (Dec) marks my 2nd anniversary of Tyros ownership, and now more satisfied than ever with this keyboard, especially since those bugs I complained to Yamaha for so long about 'finally' got addressed & corrected. I now look forward to an 'even more satisfying' year playing the Tyros.

Scott

Wow. Thanks for the frank review. I was really holding out a little hope for a technical advance in the sound and function of the G70 after waiting so long for a new Roland arranger. It'll be telling to see how others feel as the keyboard arrives worldwide, but it doesn't sound promising.

How sad to hear the Roland sounds are without much improvement. I know people love the Roland sounds, but I find them dated. That's why I sold my VA-7 off. It's a shame to hear the new Roland G70 sounds are the same old ones!

Tom G.

Thanks Roel,
I echo the replies here. Thanks for being frank about it, and I realize with your
liking towards Ketron, my midjay was a great buy!

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Roy-Andrè

congratulations Roel on purchasing the Korg PA1X !!! As folks overhere know I have been playing the PA80 and PA50 for a couple of years now and think they are great keyboards.
If it weren't for the steep price I would purchase the PA1X myself but considering the few hours I spend playing these days I think it would not be a wise move for the time being.
I sympathize with all Roland players who had very high expectations from this "newborn king", but personally I had kind of expected this.
regards,
john

Roel, sorry for your disappointment about the G70 and congratulations for the Pa1 X pro!

Roy Andrè, could you post your impressions about the Ketron Midijay? Thanks!

I had the opportunity to audition the PA1X Pro last weekend and was impressed overall as well.

The only major thing that kept me from serious purchase consideration was its messed up chord recognition. As I mentioned before, Korg has stubbornly clung to some strange (theoretically correct, but NEVER played by real keyboard players) chord interpretations of chord voicings that would make far more sense to represent chords pro keyboardists 'voice these for' instead. If the chord voicing interpretations Korg chose really were actually utilized for the chords recognition they gave them, then perhaps I could see the reasoning behind reserving it for that purpose, but I can BET not a SINGLE player here (or anywhere for that matter) plays any of Korg's esoterically odd chord voicings to signify the chord assignments Korg gave them. Here's an example: Eb1 - A1 - D2. As I recall, Korg recognizes that as an EbM7(b5) or something similar. Strangely, the important 3rd (which signifies the CRITICALLY IMPORTANT major or minor tone) is completely missing. One would never play this to signify that chord. On the other hand, playing Eb1 - A1 - D2 (together as a chord) is a very commonly played (among pro keyboard players) and considered a left hand rootless voicing for F13, where the Eb = the flatted 7th, A1 = the important major 3rd, and the D2 = the 13th (or 6th). Perhaps some of you aren't familiar with rootless style jazz chord voicings which produce an open sound suitable for comping, but 'how many' of you play this same chord voicing to represent the chord EbM7(b5) either? In other words, why doesn't Korg reserve that voicing for players who ACTUALLY utilize these popular played (especially in Jazz) chord voicings , of which were popularized by jazz piano greats Bill Evans & Wynton Kelly, and currently Diana Krall & many others. Yamaha, Technics, and even Ketron have come on board, so Korg, why aren't you listening?

Scott

Scott and all PA1XPRO owners.

I have had my PA1XPRO for several monthes now and I very much enjoy it.
As to the chord recognition issues, EVERYONE that has one should call KORG to describe the problem and request it to be changed. They are currently working on the next release of the OS.

Th only way to get these (or others too) issues addressed is to go to Korg with the complaints. Sometimes you have to be pretty demanding, but 4 issues I reported GOT FIXED!

My .02 worth...
Lee

Roel,

I wanted to reply to your message in Frankie's thread, but then realized that it belongs here.

I am sorry to read about your (mis)adventures with G70. It has put a damper on my excitement about it as well. Reading your comments about stale sounds makes me wonder where what did they use the 192 MB of sound ROM for.

Having said that, sound is a very subjective thing. There are people who like Korg sound, but to my ears it has always been a bit too harsh and unpolished, more suited for hip-hop rave party than a fancy dinner-dance affair (but that's just my two ears' perception).

The SD1 is indeed a very nice instrument. The Ketron styles are generally much more elaborate than Roland and Yamaha's are, and I fully expected that Roland styles maintain their understated elegance. It is regrettable that Roland did not seem to put in the programming effort into the much heralded 6 fills.

I am pretty certain that there will be an OS update (or a few) which will fix the crashes fairly quickly, probably within the month. Roland is pretty good in getting the stability issues resolved. OS enhancements are a totally different matter - while smaller manufacturers, like Ketron and GEM on occasion will issue an OS update which will give users some new and very desirable functions, Roland has no history of doing that. On the other hand, by spending resources on functional enhancements, they often have to push back work on stability issues, which can (and do if one to believe the Ketron forum here) adversely affect their current customers.

I think that with any instrument there is a trade-off, especially with a complex one like an arranger. There is not a single one which has all the best sounds, styles, ergonomics and ease of use, size and weight, other features like MIDI/MP3 playback and vocal harmonizer, high polyphony, good size and quality keyboard (I need 76 keys), reliability, user support, and competitive price.

At this point my 6 year old G1000 still works for me, and sounds very satisfying. I do not enjoy its lack of user-friendliness, and the small screen size is really hard on my eyes. The fact that it has no vocal harmonizer (while all the competitors do) also bothers me a bit. So I will probably wait until a G70 comes to local stores, or at least to the big on-line retailers who have 30-day return policy - as much as G70 looks good to me on paper, your frank comments will keep me from buying one sight unseen, which would not have been a good thing anyways.

I am glad you found happiness with the PA1X - enjoy.

Regards,
Alex

ROEL
TECHNICS HIGH > very low
KETRON HIGH > very low
ROLAND HIGH > very low
YAMAHA > very low
KORG HIGH > ???????

Thanks for the review Roel ,I really hoped that the G70 would sound better than on the demos you posted a few weeks ago... but I guess my suspicions were confirmed.
I hope you'll enjoy your PA1X, and that you'll write a review about it soon .
I'm saving up my money to buy one of these as well, fortunately I can get it for a pretty good price (around 2350-2400 euro ).
I can't wait hehehe!

Greetz ,
Marcel

Though I have not heard the G70 myself yet , and having a high opinion of my good friend Roel's musical judgement, I think it is only fair to realize the following:
Having programmed extensively with, and played on the Roland G-800/ G-1000 I could never stop wondering how awful these keyboards sounded straight out of the box and with their default programs/performances
Many people in Holland who got hold of my efforts over the years might testify to the fact that once worked over they seemed like entirely different instruments,simply by editing the basic samples and effects.
A good friend of mine has ordered the G70 and was phoned today that one had arrived, which will remain in the shop. However he went out to see and try it (I had to give it a miss myself but will go and see and play the darn thing next week) and came back very enthusiastic, saying that in essence it's all there.
I can't help but thinking that Roel's unfamiliarity with the Roland tradition (and his limited time spent with the keyboard) is partially effecting his judgement. All I am saying for the time being is that there is still hope for you out there all you Roland affecionados !!!!!
Me, I will stick with Korg though.

regards,
john smies

[This message has been edited by john smies (edited 12-10-2004).]

Hi Roel,
I have some questions to you:
1. is it possible to create that good demos with poor Sounds?
2. Why do you think that they used an external sequencer to create Demos? I thougth there
is a very good tool for that within the Keyboard.
3. I thought the songbook called "Music assistant" contains no Songs but Registrations.
Swing titels are swing titels, of course there are duplicates with different names.
4. The sounds of the SC55 Canvas has been included within the VA-keybords Map 1. What do you think:
"Why do they offer these Sounds now on SFX Cards?"
5. What can you say about the style category "Live Band"? People told to me these styles are made with use
of the new created guitar sounds.
6. Do the nylon guitar realy sound like a jazz guitar? It's unbelievable!
Remember your statement: " The guitars all sounds the same"
With kind regards:
Hanspeter

Deb,
I'm not sure what your post means.
Are you asking for ratings ?

Hanspeter,
a. Sure the sounds must be in it, they just don't come out. A similar thing with the Tyros Megavoices.

b. What I tried to say is that they are NOT created with styles but kind of 'programmed' by top-musicians. Absolutely nothing in the styles that brings a 'wow' feeling.

c. You are correct about the registrations in the songbook. In my view they took a 16Beat Ballad style and saved it with many many names. What I expect is carefully choosen styles that are 'typical' for a certain song.

d. Sure the Canvas effects/sounds became a kind of a 'standard' but Roland did not even try to improve the quality of the samples.
The noisy door, the screaming voice, the starting engine, the footsteps, the applause... with all 15 years old 'quality'.

e. The guitars do not show typical details.
E.g. On my good old SD1 the difference between Spanish, nylon, jazz guitars etc are very recogniseable in attack, release, noises added, brightness, sound-color, harmonics.... The G70 does not!
The G70 styles hardly show strumming guitars.
The demo-unplugged does, but how to play/use them during a performance ?

Please, if you can, compare the G70 with the KORG PA1X(pro) in styles and sounds.
The KORG will blow the G70 away.

Roel

What is it with Roland anyway ? They used to be a company that pros would turn too .

Tsk Tsk .

It sounds as if the G70 is an EXR succession, which I am not impressed with. The VA will be hard to top and I can't wait until the price drops to pick up another some day.
zuki

Zuki,
Are you in the USA? I have two VA76's left at my store and the price can be really low.....
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566

Roel,
thank you for your Answer. I think it will be not easy to blow away the G-70. I wonder about your good Feeling at Ibbenbüren where Ralf Schink did a great Job, as you reported. (11-11) And now that Disappointment! Did Mr. Schink perhaps use other sounds than you in your test? I think it is very hard to choose three or more Sounds within 1598 of them in a short time. Maybe some Styles are not the Cream today, but Roland will be able to
develop more in the near future, I hope. At the other hand there are a lot easy of use tools and utilities to change events, parts and instruments within
the styles. Same for midi's. For me personal the compatibility of G1000/VA7-Styles, the key feeling, the second spitpoint and the chord extractor are very important things too.

Hanspeter

So what's the list and retail of the G-70?

Does anyone know how it handles selection and playback of midi files, by means of instant recall and playback from arranger play? like the Tyros,

Geo-
Yes, in Cincinnati. If you have (1) after Christmas, we can talk again. I'd love to treat myself, but have other obligations for now. Of course, after Christmas, I'll be more broke and will then have to wait again Thanks for letting me know.
zuki

Lee,

AS I'm NOT currently a Korg or PA1xPro owner, I doubt they would listen to me.
I suggest that you (and all other PA1x Pro owners) forward the following thread link to Korg in hopes to convince them to change their chord recognition table:
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/009566.html

Many thanks in advance.

Scott

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http://scottyee.com

Scott,
I for one will DO IT!
I'll let everyone know what they say...
Lee

Hi,
I visited a G70 presentation and can say, it sounds much much better as the VA 76.
The drums are more brillant (well, the Tyros drums are a little better), the other voices will sound natural, the styles aren't boring (the first versions were equipped with old styles, and the presenter used the last software version with all features, but some bugs, they fix it before selling).
There are some Tyros features, as the voicing feature (no more one transposed bar chord) or short endings (Fill in, crash and that's all instead a long solo).
Together with Tyros, the G 70 may enhance your sound.

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Regards
RF

What I think has happened :

The G70 that was delivered form me, had the old' software and styles. The style were boring and simple.....

I hope I'm right in this?

Thanks Lee. - Scott

Hi Roel,

You probably know I also have my eye on the G-70 so I was unpleasantly surprised by your experience. Although I respect your opinion and thank you for your review, I still find it difficult to believe that Roland 'missed the boat' that much.

I hope it's partly because you are so very used to the Ketron SD1 that the transition to any other keyboard is a bit of a shock. But since Roland is in such a great rush to get the G-70 on the market it just might as well be that your particular instrument was still one of the pre-production models. If so it's inexcusable of course but would explain a lot! I hope Roland is reading our discussions!! Hello??

Since some of you have better experiences I still have my hopes up and will try it out as soon as my schedule allows it. Will be after Christmas though.

Anyway, I hope you like the PA1X even more than the Ketron!

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Tom NL

By the way, Roland has a lot more demos planning in the next months. And they are all done by Ralf Schink and Danny Wuyts. Two really good and very professional musicians. Maybe that's because there has been quite some criticism about the first demos, but we can only guess. It will be a good opportunity for me to give it a second change and listen to the full potential of the G-70.

Waiting a few weeks could also be a good thing because it might reveal why Roland was in such a hurry to get the G-70 on the market. If the competition (must be Yamaha) introduces something in the same league it must be at the Winter-NAMM in 5 weeks.

I think the specs of the G-70 are still great and it will be very hard to top them.

Check out the demos for Holland and Belgium here: http://www.roland.be/inhoud-N.html

Tom.

[This message has been edited by Tom NL (edited 12-14-2004).]