Originally posted by Riceroni9:
Hello Again, Beakybird:
Let's consider another angle. Put a percentage on all income and ignore the national sales tax. Just don't try to sell me the idea that the poor guy should pay a different percentage. Why would we want to deprive him/her the privilege of being a first class citizen? When I get rich I will have achieved the American Dream. (It's not about to happen being a songwriter... LOL!)
I agree that we should look at what other countries are doing. Some of them are doing quite well at our expense. Some are doing well at the expense of their people. Can you give me an example of a country where taxes are less (including VAT and all that other stuff disguised as fees) 'cause I agree with you. If there is a better model, we should seriously look at it. I don't subscribe to the theory that everthing was invented in America.
I can tell you that I've travelled extensively and I'm always grateful to return home to the States. We are a resourceful people and we can do better... but there are so many people that would give an arm or leg to live here.
Thanks for this interesting post.
Dave
There are three systems of taxation: progressive, regressive, and flat. Progressive taxation means the richer you are the higher percentage you pay. Regressive taxation means that the poorer you are, the higher percentage you pay. Flat tax means everyone pays the same.
We live in a system of regressive taxation. Overall, the middle class and the poor pay a much higher percentage of their income in taxes.
Let's take a couple that makes 40,000 a year together. They are paying so many regressive taxes to support state, local, and federal government. Sales tax is very regressive. Let's say if this couple drinks a beer each every day, they're paying $200 a year in alcohol tax - .5% of their income. The $100 excise tax for each of their dumpy cars comes out to another .5% of their income. The property taxes their landlord passes on to them is regressive. The rich pay a much smaller percentage of their income on property tax. This couple has to pay taxes on utilities and on their cell phones. Every time they fill up their gas tank they have to pay gas tax, another regressive tax where the poor pay a higher percentage of their income.
The federal, state, and local governments in order to not raise taxes have been raising fees. They raise the prices on immigration forms, fishing licenses, fees to enter state and federal parks, registration fees for your child's school. These are regressive forms of taxation where the poor pay a much, much larger percentage of their income on these inflated fees which exist because the politicians don't want to raise taxes.
Let's say one of the people in the couple is a self-employed musician. We have to pay self-employment tax, for what social security. Social security, the way it is set up is a regressive tax - and I'm for social security. But the middle class and most of the poor pay a substantial portion of their income to social security to get, if we're lucky, a few percent of gain per year on our investment. Bill Gates pays about $20,000 to $25,000 per year into social security (just a guestimate), the same as someone making $200,000 a year. The middle class is forced to pay a substantial amount for a program where we get little in return, while the rich pay a fraction of a percent - that they will only get a fraction of a percent back doesn't take away from my point.
So a progressive income tax is only fair in order to make up for all of the regressive forms of taxation that there are in this country. The people who propose a flat tax, they sound fair, but they are not fair. A flat tax would only reapportion more wealth from the poor and middle class to the upper crust.
Forbes did a list of happiest countries, and the US comes in at #14. Take the country at the top, Denmark. Progressive taxation and higher taxes. Longer life spans, less poverty, less crime, better education, better (and cheaper) health care. World class athletic and recreational facilities available to all.
I think the US has become a very mean-spirited country - with all these asinine talking heads leading the discourse. Their message is simple, if you don't have enough money to feed your family, eat sh**.
Beakybird
[This message has been edited by Beakybird (edited 12-03-2010).]