OBAMA WINS!!!!

wow!!! its over!
http://www.foxnews.com/



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-04-2008).]

Don't Blame me!!!!

And for what it's worth coming from someone not in the USA...Good Choice!!!

Dennis

Ian..make room for us guys making over 250 grand...

WAHOOO!

Bin Laden is Celebrating!!!.....and planning.

Coming from someone who DOES live in the US of A, "How do YOU know ?!?!?"

t.

Kingfrog.., I'd tag you as a bed-mate of Bin Laden before I would Obama.

QUOTE: from cgiles:

"people get the government they deserve"

chas

Well, I guess you are right !!!

t.

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 11-04-2008).]

Of course you would.......You are under the Obama spell..

Glad Im not living in NYC......or Washington DC

God Bless America!

Well the good thing is Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton are out of the racist business.....

48% of Americans don't think he is qualified. He has A LOT to prove.


Those tears on Jessie face are tears of pain...

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 11-04-2008).]

Hey, you and Donny can stay here with me...just make him promise not to play naked.

We will need it ......

t.

America is slowly turning it's back on God....I'm not sure His blessings are forthcoming..

We have reaped what we have sown. It's not over yet. The worse is yet to come.

Yeah, whatever.

and here's a little cut and paste from another thread, posted by you..

quote:Originally posted by Dnj:
I'm hearing so many conflicting opinions.....whats going on? talk to us.

Donny ... don't you get it? People have different opinions !
t.

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 11-04-2008).]

Huh? Which G-d do you believe in?

I'm religious long enough to know that people who think G-d is out there to reward and punish, don't believe in Him for the right reasons...

Unfortunately, McCain's concession speech was his best.

[This message has been edited by zuki (edited 11-04-2008).]

Zuki.., they're going to be picking McCains campaign apart now for the next few weeks. There will be many discussions regarding what he did wrong.., and what they should have and have not done in this election.

well I guess the people have spoke....

Now I hope the guy surrounds himself with smart people..not politicians...

And make the moves that will make a difference..

Number one..stop allowing imports (products) from China and other countries..we do not need these junk products...Keep Americans working..even if we have to pay more...and yes ..reduce welfare..it is highly abused...

Election results may also been a factor..people looking for something free at the expense of others..

And no, I am not bitter..I didn't care who won..The President is the fall guy....Presidents don't put us in recessions...Congress does...

Now that President elect .."talked the talk"....lets see him "walk the walk"

And while we are wrapping up politics...for those that think USA is evil....I would like to see us watch our borders and support our own for a change...Let the world fret for themselves for a while..

Ian how many bedrooms do you have? Can Palin come too..

Sodom and Gomorrah......

The US is heading there quickly.
Killing babies, calling it "Choice"
Taking Prayer out of School Calling it Separation of Church and State

In God We trust will be erased from the money next.

Of course I believe Jesus died for our sins.
Perhaps that's our only salvation after all.

But that Reverend Wright Guy......."God Damm America"

He got His wish.

OH and.....Good-Bye Israel....She has no friend in Obama.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 11-04-2008).]

LMAO

Well at least it was not a clean sweep.
The Senate still is not filibusterer proof.

Oh man.., Ian, Fran, and Palin in the same house! Remember guys the woman likes guns.., so no funny business with her.

Sodom and Gomorrah....I thought they were the monsters in those old Japanese monster movies.






[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-04-2008).]

Now we can put politics aside..

Chony my G70 is better than your Tyros3..

Obama 2-1 says something

Yeah Bush REALLY REALLY sucked.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 11-04-2008).]

misguided numbers...I would prefer popular vote to determine elections..only and that was a lot closer
.

48 percent of the population said no to Obama....Hardly 2-1..

Nah then NY LA and Chicago and only the big cities would decide who is President. The Electoral College is needed to give a voice to those states with less population.

But I agree he did not get a mandate within the general population. But hey lets party. We are all going to get more money from Bill Gates and his friends....Hooray!

Yes We can......Lol

As a conservative, Obama definitely wasn't my pick. But, neither was McCain. My vote didn't go to either of them.

Anyway, now that Obama is the next president, I'm content to reserve judgement until I see what happens. One thing is certain, Repubs lately have given me very little reason to support them. They've sucked on a large variety of issues. So really, I didn't have much desire to see the same sort of repub keep things going. This stark contrast that Obama will present is actually preferable in some ways, if all it does is show repubs what a sorry lot they've been lately.

As forward thinking as many of these other countries claim to be, re: America losing credibility, etc, wonder how long it is until those countries elect a minority as their Chief Commander ?

We do all the time.. Our Prime Minister comes from and leads the party that wins the election, and with proportional representation, it is quite common for a government to win office with less than 45% of the popular vote.

KF is 100% correct, if you have simply "one person one vote" and not a system like your Electoral College, then the cities will determine government every time.

Dennis

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 11-04-2008).]

Very interesting NBC poll:

Only 30% are optimistic of Obama being president.

25% are scared.

27% are deeply concerned.

52% think he's qualified to be president.

42% think he's not.

It made me wonder how one could be elected with these kind of feelings prevalent. One answer popped into my mind. I guess unfortunatley a lot of people weren't voting about the issues as criteria.

I almost voted for him. I will admit I felt very uneasy listening to his acceptance speech.

I wish him and all of us the best.

Given the state of our country at this time (economic chaos and two wars), shouldn't we be sending ANY new fairly-elected president our best wishes and get solidly behind him in straightening out the awful mess this current administration has left us in. Hanging on to your old predjudices to your own detriment just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Isn't it time to step up and just be better than that. Despite electing an African-American, it's clear that you STILL only need scratch the surface to get to the ugly underbelly. Guess we still have a ways to go. Sad. Maybe after all the 'righteous' among us have departed for Costa Rica (and Godspeed), we can began to heal as a nation (that IS what we want, right?) and start to feel good about ourselves and ALL of our fellow citizens.

I'm a liberal, but like Rory, I'll reserve judgement on Obama until AFTER he's been given a chance to suceed. God Bless America and all the brave people of good will and good conscience who were willing to break precedent and give him a chance.

chas

And you voted for him... Twice.

So you REALLY REALLY know what you are talking about, don't you?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 11-05-2008).]

hehe, i like this better!

Fine, but my Tyros 3 is better than your new president.

Just kidding!

Let us Pray!!

"YES WE CAN"

Candidates

Popular Vote
McCain (R)55,038,446 46%
Obama (D)61,942,640 52%


Electoral Votes (270 needed)

McCain 147
Obama 349

Yes, Donny, I am aware of those numbers. Majority rules. Let's hope he can get accomplished what we really need.

I was on the fence until about 2 days ago. I liked/disliked both of them about equally.haha Toughest voting decision I've ever made.

People obviously wanted something new and fresh. I hope it works out.

What an idiotic statement.

Stop talking about margins of the win, electoral or popular. Look at the skewed results of the last two elections and tell us that something was not on the level there.

I guess I'm stupid or maybe chose to not see the future, but I never felt I was voting for a "black" or "African American" but for the person who could bring a sense of change to the country. I went to bed last night feeling the racial profile of this country was turned inside out. I guess it has been , but I sure hope the media gets back to talking about Obama as a charismatic young (hu)man and not the be all end all for blacks. It's a great event for African Americans, granted, but Obama himself did not focus on that aspect of his personality. Let the rejoicing continue, but then let's get back to being "One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

And for anyone who doubts there is a God and the power of prayer, I challenge you to relive the last two months of my life OR of some of lives of other SZ members who have experienced life changing events. Is God for US or against US, no. God is in everything, everybody, everywhere. All we can do is ask for his blessing and pray for his help.

Amen, Cassp!

Well Said.

It is indeed... a new day! I did not vote for Senator Obama... but I will respect his new office and support him when he is right.

As a member of the loyal opposition, I will fight tooth and nail against everything the democrat controlled congress attempts that hurts our country. This was a victory... but not a mandate. Congratulations President Obama. Dave

NOW! All you that voted for him...Will get the real Obama...not who he says he is!

When it happens,,,look in the mirror for blame.

Get out your wallet!

I hope I'm wrong...If so I will say it..

I'm more worried about the new larger control the Democratic congress has...it's now' whatever they want'
Lee

[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 11-05-2008).]

About a year ago, my wife and I decided we would really make a concerted effort to become as knowledgeable as possible about this election. We challenged each other daily...( and I mean daily) to stay informed and to not simply be satisfied with the hype of either candidate. This was a kool-aid free zone, lol. We considered info from the right and the left. For every hour of Fox News we watched, there was an hour of MSNBC or CNN to follow it. POTUS08 was on most of the time on my XM satellite radio. We both talked to local party chairpersons about the various issues of these two men. It got to the point where we both had memorized their stump speeches. As an example to our kids, we felt this was important beyond just for ourselves...

Pleased to say that our oldest daughter voted in her first election. The two oldest girls (20 and 16) both knew roughly where each candidate stood on the major issues. We watched the 4 debates as a family...

The more research and info we considered, we all wound up supporting Obama. Not blindly mind you. He is inexperienced, he has not always understood some of the ramifications of some of the people in his past, he is the most liberal senator currently serving, etc. He also has the burden of being the first minority President and we hope that outside forces/interests don't make that become a burden or distraction to him.

For me, I generally preferred his style and his substance over McCain's. The GOP seemed to, in their Rovian ways, be intent on tearing down, misleading Obama's policies and try to advance their cause on the platform of fear. It was embarrassing after awhile to hear MCcain start to call himself the "change" candidate when Obama had been doing that from the start. His selection of Palin was to us an ominous sign of questionable judgment. It seemed to us that the GOP strategy was "...If we just keep saying these falsehoods over and over and over again, people will believe it!"

I had a nice talk last week at a funeral with an old marine. He asked me what I thought about the election and told me no matter who won he'd feel fine about it. He explained to me that he was probably going to vote for McCain, but wasn't sure. He also said if Obama won, he'd be happy in a different way. To see how far this country has come when a black man can be voted into office without playing the race card, he thought was one of the most encouraging things he'd seen in his lifetime. He also thought Obama was probably smarter than JM was...

In the end, the quality of Obama's ideas, intelligence and the style and grace with which he communicated them earned him my vote.

Watching his speech last night, it reminded me of two other days in my life. Both of these days were days of emotion and strong feelings of patriotism. There were VERY different days however. One was 9/11...the other was back in 1980 when the US beat the Russians in hockey during the Olympics.

Now, as others have said, its time for us to do what we can to make our country and lives better. If we spend the next 4 years doing everything we can to tear Obama down, then we will have done ourselves a dis-service.

No free passes for him, and its a good thing Dems didn't get a "super majority." He needs to be as smart, if not smarter than he was during his campaign as he serves as President.

Lots of work to do...God Bless our new president and our country...

------------------
Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 11-05-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 11-05-2008).]

I love subtle humor, so I am posting this... hope you like it.

[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3153/3004192835_c5ac394af8.jpg?v=0[/img]


if the above doesn't work look at

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3153/3004192835_c5ac394af8.jpg?v=0


[This message has been edited by trident (edited 11-05-2008).]

Bill, excellent post. Thanks for your insight.

Did the US participated in the 1980 Olympics in Moscow? I thought they boycotted the event.

Anyway, for me, Obama was my preffered candidate. Better suited to my beliefs which I am not going to write here, not because I don't want to, but simply because I am too lazy.

Simply put, let us all hope that the "change" Mr Obama was reffering to, does not simply mean the change of skin colour of the next tennant of the White House, but a change of attitude regarding all the serious issues that the POTUS has to face, on behalf of US citizens. A change that if is succesful, will actually help change the whole world.

Unless someone with a rifle drops him, like they did to JFK, and makes a saint of him.

The US boycotted the 1980 Summer Olympics in Moscow, not the 1980 Winter Olympics in Lake Placid, NY.

The boycott was related to the Carter administration's stance on the USSR/Afghan conflict...

Almost a tad ironic, eh?



------------------
Bill in Dayton

Ironic, yes.

Bill, your post was thoughtful, reasoned, and pretty much a guide to how we should approach all such unfamiliar situations; ie. first get the facts, weigh all the subtleties of the situation, then (and only then) decide. For those of you that seem so fearful of an Obama presidency, I would LIKE to say that with the checks and balances of a three branch government, one man can't do that much damage. Yes, I would LIKE to say it, but Bush kind of killed that theory.

BTW, Tony, I sure had you misread. But, hey, you're certainly entitled to your opinions.

Anybody know of a nice vintage B3 for sale. If you happen to run across one, let me know (but only if it's in good condition).

chas

chas ... I also applaud the fact that Americans were willing to put color aside when voting ... I ASSURE you, when I voted for McCain, I was voting against the "most liberal Senator" in the country and the Far Left that vigorously supports him. ... I do not apologize for disagreeing with some of Obama's ideology ...
Apparently, most of America got past the color line, perhaps it is time for others to do so also ...
**********************************

To me, the MOST disturbing thing about this election is the fact there are more Democrats in Congress, but fortunately, not the number they wanted ...

It amazes me that the Republican Party did not talk more about the fact that it is the Democrats who are responsible for the Freddie and Fannie mess, and while there were serious problems prior to, we REALLY started to get into a deeper and deeper hole after the election of a Democrat Congress two years ago - or perhaps the liberal media just didn't allow it to be publicized !!!

And being a believer in the power of Prayer, I will pray that there will be enough people with good common sense, regardless of political affiliation, to get us out of the mess we are in ...

t.

Another thing I find interesting in hearing and reading some of the commentary here and other places, is that America voted for Obama because of his ideas and plans for change ...
I can't help but wonder, if he had lost, how much of the conversation would have been NOT about the fact that Americans did not like his ideas and plans for change, but about the race issue ... ???

t.

I kinda feel sad for Obama, as in 4 years he will get blaimed for the ruins caused by 8 years of Bush government...

No way in earth that he can get the US economy on the rails again in the next 4 years... Dark ages are comming for the western world... caused by Bush fammily and they will be blaimed on Obama

And yet another idiotic statement....

Bill, excellent post. Thanks for your insight.

chas ... I certainly would appreciate further explanation !!!

BTW ... my e-mail is in my profile ....

t.

Lol. It begins already. Bush fails? Bush's fault. Obama fails?.....duh, Bush's fault. I wonder how many "McCain stole the election" stories had to be torn up and thrown in the garbage that were written well in advance of the election?

dble click .... sorry .....

t.

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 11-05-2008).]

Probably not too many...

Its a given that each president often has to be subjected to correcting the previous pres. actions.

Its more valid, IMO, if you consider the level of the error involved.

Ex. Take Reagan getting most of the credit for the release of the Iran hostages after he replaced Carter. In this case, the negotiations/agreements were already in place, but Iram simply wanted to bring as much shame upon Carter as they could. It works in reverse sometimes too...

You really have to pay attention to not get sucked in by the BS.

------------------
Bill in Dayton

You got that right !!!

t.

In the final analysis, the story of this election is that McCain has been beaten by Bush TWICE !!!

t.

Whatever our disagreements we are ALL Americans (except those living here illegally of course; or those who have not "yet" become U.S. citizens by choice but are still residing here legally).

One of my main concerns about Obama is that we don't really know the man that well. He has been less than forthcoming about his earlier years in college and also the time when he was in cahoots with the unrepentant terrorist William Ayers. In fact Obama himself denied access to information about himself to the public during those certain college years of his, and one can only imagine why?? Was it because the information contained therein would have made his run for the presidency more difficult, if not impossible, to acheive?? Why did he renig on his promise to the American people of accepting public financing for his campaign - something he told John McCain in writing he would absolutely do? Was it because by limiting his campaign to public financing he wouldn't have been able to raise the "excessive" amounts of money he needed to, in my opinion, "steamroll" his way into the presidency? Since he broke his trust with the American people over public financing what makes you think he will keep all of his other commitments he has made to his 'constituents' or to the American people as a whole? In other words, if a man will outright lie to the American people over one issue, what makes you think he will tell the truth about other things he has spoken or promised he will do?

Obama has spoken many "lofty" words, saying he will do many "lofty" things for America and the "middle" class. Words are fine, but actions will be the only determining factor when 'all is said and done' and when the resultant 'push comes to shove' and the 'rubber finally meets the road'.

So in truth, what do we currently have to go by - Obama's "words" or his previous "actions" from his political record? When a person says one thing yet for the most part his previous "record" shows the direct opposite about him, what are we to believe?? His words or his "record"?? >> You all can sort that one out on your own..

Now, can a man suddenly make a change for the better? Yes he can if he wants to. The sixty four thousand dollar question with Obama is: Will he?? Or does he even care to???

These next four years will tell us one way or the other what his real plans for America and the American people are. If his previous "record" is any indication (not his lofty words) my advice to everyone is to HOLD ON TIGHT TO YOUR WALLET, while in the meantime, PRAY for God's MERCY upon this great land of ours in the coming years ahead, and particularly in these next "four" years of his presidency.

Best,
Mike

You know what I've never heard from, from ANY Republican supporter, here, or anywhere (and I talk face to face with a LOT, coming from Florida!)...?

An apology.

For voting for GW not once, but TWICE,

I guess either they don't feel the President has much to do with how the country goes (in which case, why worry about Obama? ) or they don't give a damn what he does in there, as long as he just SAYS the things they want to hear while he does the opposite...

You can bet, after four years of Obama, they will hold him personally responsible (and those who voted for him) for every last problem over here....

So, where's that apology from the right?

The Democratic congress IS responsible for the mess were in...there knew damm well about Freddie and Fannie and actually personally got paid by them! They did nothing beacsuse it was there deal (started by Clintons policy of everyone should have a house (even if they can't pay for it)

That is the one major thing that got us here.

It was not the president.

Once again no accountability to what they do..that needs to change!
Lee

Diki ... I apologize ... now how about an apology from all those who voted in the Democrat Congress that contributed GREATLY to this mess ...

t.

Not really ... he had a LOT of help from a Democrat Congress and their friends ...

t.

CONGRATULATIONS USA !

Cheers
GJ

Thanks kbkr, care to elaborate as to why it seems idiotic to you?

If I get it right, your comment stems from NOT understanding what the point of the sentence is, which works only if you take into account both the "idiotic statement" and the paragraph preceding it, such as: "If Obama walks the walk, he will do good to the US and also the whole world, unless someone stops him before he does any good"..... an NOT as: "Useless black guy gets killed and (unfairly) gets promoted to saint".

Well?

Thanks for your time.

One more thought on this ... Obama will have a Democrat Congress, and most likely will have the opportunity to appoint three SC Justices ... So I would say he has the WHOLE PACKAGE going for him ...

t.

Actually he is sad. Bush invaded Iraq instead of looking for him.

If you believe what you hear on Republican-Propaganda-Media, I have a bridge to sell you.

The first time around Bush got less than 50% of the vote, and his brother had the voting halted in my home state before the traditionally democratic precincts were re-counted. Also in Volusia county, they counted Gores votes backwards until he got over NEGATIVE 16000 votes. Gore clearly won the state and the election and Bush stole it with election tampering.

Bush was our "Commander In Thief" and actually out did Nixon (another Republican) in the illegal activities department.

Obama can't do any worse.

Who's God? Remember, the Christian God is the same one the Jews and Islamics worship. From the mess we are in, I don't think he/she/it is taking sides.

A couple of final thoughts, and I will not come back to this thread.

1) For those Republicans who accepted defeat graciously, thank you.

2) For you Democrats and Independents who help bring down the Bush regime, thank you.

3) For those Republicans who are still trying to spread hate and fear, please be gracious, join the republic, and turn off Fox and Limbaugh - they are worse than the communist threat we had in the 50s

4) Let's all put our differences aside, and get back to making music.

------------------
Bob "Notes" Norton
Owner Norton Music http://www.nortonmusic.com
The Sophisticats http://www.s-cats.com

Yes, let's put it to rest, but not until I remind you all that Bush stole the elections, and that Limbaugh and Fox are worst than Communists. Oh, btw, I'm not liberal, totally independent. But you might notice I didn't bother to mention any leftys who shouldn't be listened to. They're all mainstream. Only the right wingers should be avoided.

A comment about "getting this economy back on track" ...

Gas prices today , here in Baltimore were $2.05 a gallon. 2 months ago $4.00 ...

If gas maintains this price, it should / will immediately put more money in everyone's pocket.With a new sense of hope with the election of Obama, perhaps the consumer confidence will get better as well.

Bill , I really enjoyed your post about chosing Obama. I decided to vote for him and my wife did too. Election night was a very cool thing to witness.

t.

PS This is going to be some 4 years - Obama's not even in office and he's getting credit for lower gas prices and a better economy ...

All I will say is "... So you CAN fool MOST of the people SOME of the time ..."

good luck to us all ...

t.

Tony,
Personally, I wasn't giving credit to any one person for the gas prices going down. I was just mentioning a fact that can and will put money in peoples pocket. Don't you like the fact that gas is now 50% less ? I don't care how it happened...

Another saying goes "attitude is everything".
If the general public has a mind set that things may get better, it certainly can have an effect on the economy. It's called consumer confidence ...




Just a thought ... Dan O'

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 11-06-2008).]

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 11-06-2008).]

Dan ... my bad ... sorry ...

of course I am enjoying the fact that gas prices have come down, it's just that there was a lot of 'Bush bashing' when they were going up, and, outside of your comments, there is next to nothing being said about them going down ... TV networks were leading into their newscasts with the latest increase in gas prices ... now NOTHING !!!

As far as attitude being everything, and consumer confidence being something that is fed (or not) by the media, I have been saying for months that I wonder what would happen to the housing market if the media started saying that housing prices were on the rise ... I would just bet things would improve ...
t.

This is why I am optimistic. This whole Obama thing is not media fed, because he was not elected by the media. Now I know they covered the process, but in the end, it was the people of the United States that needed to get out and vote. My understanding is that this election was the biggest turn out in our history. And despite your politics, it is great to see so many vote.

When I watched McCains concession speach, it was all class and I was proud our country had John McCain in the race. But the emotion of the people for Obama was heart felt.
Obama is a smart man and I am certain he has prepared himself ...

I wish I was a little more polished in my writing skills

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 11-06-2008).]

And as an American, I wish Obama every success ... what choice do I have? ... I love this country, my life in it, and I ain't goin' nowhere ...

BUT, while, yes, the people had to get out and vote, I have to disagree on the media issue ...
the TV networks were CLEARLY all over Obama, but what do we really know about him? .... I would say he is probably the least KNOWN President - Elect we've ever had ...

As for the media, I generally have the Today show on as I get up and have breakfast ... They were so slanted towards the Dems, it was almost embarrassing ... I had to turn the David Letterman show off because of his night after night "bashing" of Sarah Palin, and Leno was no different ...
Our local newspaper never had a positive article about the Reps, and when someone wrote in and they published it, they would follow with two letters in favor of the Dems ... and on, and on, and on ...
All of this greatly influences the American public ...
And believe me, had Sarah Palin been a Democrat, the media would have made her America's darling ... they would have PRAISED her rise from 'humble beginnings' to being a mayor of a small town to becoming Governor ... All this and raising a family too ... I tell you, had she been a Dem, the media would have LOVED her ...

But, now we wait, hope, pray, and do what we can ...
The best to you my friend,

t.


[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 11-06-2008).]

Dan, trust me, your writing skills are just fine.......so is your attitude. Looking back, I am so glad I had the opportunity to do business with a person of integrity.

chas

As far as Palin bashing is concerned, IMHO it was deserved. She has no experience, no class, and was quoted in an AP article saying that we should go to war with Russia -- therefore she also has no brains.

Her nomination was an embarrassment. It would have been a joke if it wasn't so serious.

And don't forget, FOX, Limbaugh and the rest of the Republican-Propaganda-Media have been bashing Hillary for years, PLUS they have called Obama, an Athiest, a Muslim, a Marxist, a Card Carrying Communist, a Racist, a card carrying Black Panther member, and a host of other lies.

I am not for censorship, but I really wish Republican-Propaganda-Media would go away. They repeat the same lies over and over again until people actually believe them.

Remember when they told you Iraq had weapons of mass destruction aimed at our country. Anybody with half a brain and actually uses it instead of swallowing Republican-Propaganda-Media "reports" hook line and sinker would have been able to see through that. When the US was rattling it's sabers at Saddam's door, if he did have them, he would have said, "Attack me and I'll nuke you" After all, at that point he had nothing to lose. Yet the Rep-Prop-Media addicts would yell that we had to invade Iraq to get rid of those WMDs. Fact is, the invasion of Iraq was planned way before 9-11.

So the USA invaded a sovereign country (much like Hitler did in Poland), killed more people than Saddam did, financed the war on credit, and tanked the US economy in the process. We are now over 10 trillion dollars in debt - do you have any idea what the monthly interest is on that loan? After all, we taxpayers are paying that every month.

McCain said we are going to be in Iraq for 100 more years, and Palin wants us to attack Russia - (both AP news quotes).

IMHO anybody who voted for McCain after all that is either incredibly naive or was brainwashed by Republican-Propaganda-Media.

The fact is that the Republicans have been flushing the USA down the toilet for the past 8 years, and the majority of the population was simply sick of it, and decided that Obama was at minimum the lesser of the two evils presented to us.

Oh, and the gas prices came down for one reason. To help McCain in the election. After all he promised millions of dollars of tax breaks for the oil companies if elected -- and you know who would be paying for that tax break -- the low to middle class tax payer.

In light of all of the above, Obama was the logical choice and I am glad he made it.

We're still in Germany. That was over 60 years ago.
BTW, thought you weren't visiting this thread anymore. Guess you keep promises about as good as Obama will. (just had to throw that in)

Is it too much to at least wait and see what he does before we tar and feather him? God, I HATE these divisive, hateful, purposeless, statements. I REALLY, REALLY, want to think the best of people, but when they continue to slash away at the guy before he's even done anything, I can only conclude that this is just blind predjudice of the worst kind. Musicians are my favorite people and I'm always ready to cut them a little extra slack, but knowing first hand the destructive power of unreasonable hate and predjudice, I have to say I have my limits.

This has nothing to do with liberal vs conservative except for what conservative has come to mean since the Republican party was hijacked by the religious right who seems to champion bigotry, exclusion, and ignorance (creationism?). Maybe it's okay to present for vice-president someone who can't name the countries that comprise NAFTA, or doesn't know that Africa is a continent and not a country. That as long as she can incite the natives, rouse the rabble, fan the flames of intolerance, in order to elect as otherwise honorable man, she is acceptable. The big loser in all this, John McCain, an authentic American hero, whose legacy is sure to be tarnished by this fiasco.

So go ahead, Rory, an unload on me if you like. I understand that my take on it isn't necessarily gospel. I just have a strong aversion to the whole concept of prejudging based on absolutely nothing.

chas

chas

None of Notes Norton's statements were at all divisive or hateful though. Palin has no brain, throwing Hitler's name in when commenting on Bush foreign policy. I haven't called Obama worse than communists, as Notes did about right wing radio. He castigates right wing radio for calling Obama a card carrying Communist, and then he turns around and calls them worse than the Communist threat of the 50's. He's unable to refrain from doing that which he rebukes.
I haven't twisted and mangled any Obama statements; such as Norton did with the being in Iraq for 100 years and we should go to war with Russia as soon as possible, yadda yadda. If anybody did some "unloading" just now, I'd submit it wasn't me.

So come on Chas, berate Notes Norton. Let's hear it buddy. After all, you're a fair man, right?

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 11-07-2008).]

I try to be, but we all know that nobody is completely fair, not even the Supreme Court. First off, I'm not here to try to make someone else come off as a jerk or to present myself as some kind of sanctimonius do-gooder. I've got way too many skeletons in my own closet for that. I'm all for spirited discussions encompassing all points of view as long as they maintain at least a modicum of intellectual integrity and just not fueled by unreasonable and certainly unjustified fear and predjudice.

Let's take a look at Obama. Here's a guy who played by all the so-called 'family values' (what a load of crap) rules; educated via student loans (only recently paid off), turned down lucrative job offers to work in community service, found Jesus (his only negative, for me), married an equally accomplished woman with an equally remarkable story, after a conventional courtship (i.e. no pre-marital babies), and through will, hard work, and intellect, worked his way through the state legislature, the state senate, the U.S. senate, and now the presidency. Okay, he smoked a little weed along the way. So did Clinton, and let's not even talk about Bush's college years or McCains uh, 'active' social life. Nobody's perfect. Certainly not me, certainly not you, certainly not Obama.

But, why didn't I berate NotesNorton? Probably because I agree with most (but not all) of what he had to say, but mostly because it was, for the most part, a statement of some well-documented facts. For the record, I don't buy his 'gas price' theory, not at all. I don't believe anyone, on the right or anywhere else, has the power to manipulate international oil prices for the sole purpose of helping to elect John McCain. That's a bit of a stretch. But more importantly, I didn't detect the same kind of vitriol in his arguments; you know, the kind that shouts, "I hate the candidate, not his policies; I just USE his policies to justify my feelings".

For me, I hope that Obama's election will have far greater ramifications than just his tax policies, or social programs. I'm hoping he succeeds so that my own grandkids and the kids of their generation will, when their time comes, be judged (in EVERY corner of this country) by something other than the color of their skin, or the shape of their eyes, or the texture of their hair, or the thickness of their lips, or the.....well, you fill in the blanks.

So yes, Notes did use the magic word (Hitler), but we've gotten so used to (since this campaign) singling out single words in an entire dissertation to prove a point, that even legitimate complaints start to ring hollow, these days.

So, in conclusion, no ongoing contentious quarrel with you, Cory. We'll probably both continue to try to win points for our respective 'teams' and I will continue to admire your talent and abilities as a musician and the challenges you must have faced getting there. So let's continue to agree to disagree, but keep it on as high a level as possible when discussing politics . You're a very bright guy and I tend to like very bright guys so I know there is potential for friendship here. Gotta run. Babysitting the Grandkids, today.

chas

Yes I did use Hitler.

I compared Bush's invasion of Iraq to Hitler's invasion of Poland.

Sorry if you are offended, bu IMHO the comparison is valid.

Both Hitler and Bush invaded sovereign countries without any provocation at all.

I am ashamed that our country invaded Iraq. Like most people, I hated Saddam, but we supported worse people than him (Papa Doc and Baby Doc in Haiti). And now, we have caused the death of more people than Saddam did, making us the terrorists. I'm so embarrassed. The American people deserve better than that.

Given that Saddam was a monster, we still had no right to invade the country. Iraq did not attack us. They were not attacking one of our treaty allies.

BUSH manufactured a WMD excuse. -- it was a lie. So the person who hijacked the Christians (who worship the Prince of Peace) did the following:

1) Ignored "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor" and manufactured the WMD story. And I repeat. Anybody who uses his/her brain should have known Saddam didn't have WMDs. After all, when we gave him the ultimatum to give them up or we will send the fiercest fighting force in the world into his country, if he really did have WMDs, he would have said, "Attack me and I'll nuke you." After all, at that point Saddam had nothing to lose. WMDs are best used as a deterrent. If I can figure that out, Bush's advisers certainly knew that.

2)He also ignored "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and has not only killed over 4,000 of our finest soldiers, but estimates from 100,000 to over 600,000 Iraq citizens. Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, Sons and Daughters all of them. Not just numbers, but real people, real human beings, just like you and I. IMHO Bush is a mass murderer and should be brought to the world court and given a fair trial for war crimes.

3) Both Hitler and Bush approved the heinous act of torture and both Hitler and Bush spied on their own law-abiding citizens.

How can you NOT draw a parallel to Hitler's invasion of Poland? (which is how I used Adolph's name).

Both invaded a sovereign country without provocation and under false pretenses which resulted in the deaths of many innocent people.

------

As far as gas prices go, the Republicans nuked the Anti-Trust laws in Bush's term. The same laws that broke up Standard Oil who was price gouging at the time.

Now we have:

Exxon-Mobil-Esso = Standard oil

BP (British Petroleum) - Amoco (American Oil Company - which was sold as Standard in the midwest and also swallowed up Gulf). I knew a woman who worked for a BP station and got her paycheck from Standard Oil of Ohio. Therefore BP/Amoco = Standard Oil.

Texaco - Chevron = Standard Oil. When the Standard Oil stations of the Eastern US sold gas under the Standard Sign, the pumps said Chevron on them. Later they changed the signs.

Add to that that recently all the Shell stations turned into Texaco stations and all the Texaco stations turned into Shell stations. Do you really think two supposedly independent corporations, one supposedly owned by the Dutch could actually pull that off if the weren't both the same company?

So there we go. Circumstantial evidence that Exxon, Mobil, Esso, BP, Amoco, Texaco and Shell are all now Standard Oil. That makes it very easy to manipulate fuel prices to support a candidate who proposed huge tax savings if elected.

Remember, when Bush was up for re-election 4 years ago, the gas prices went down.

------

One more thing. Bush, McCain, and Palin ran on an anti-abortion ticket to get the Christian vote. As a male, I feel I have no right to have an opinion on abortion, because I cannot understand it from the woman's point of view -- that is unless the child is mine. Then it is up to the woman, myself and our priest or pastor, NOT up to a government guilty of mass-murder.

However, what I don't understand is how Bush got re-elected on that ticket and how many people voted for McCain/Palin on that ticket. After all, is that unborn fetus's life more important than >4,000 U.S. adult troops (Fathers, Mothers, Sons and Daughters) and the hundreds of thousands of Iraq people? My daughter is in the Air Force, and I'm here to tell you that her life is more important to me than all the unborn fetuses in the world.

The fact remains that Bush and the rest of the NeoCons are liars and hypocrites that have used propaganda to manipulate a very well meaning segment of our population -- and have used the goodness of those manipulated citizens to do evil deeds. IMHO Bush makes R.Nixon (another Republican) look like an amateur.

Sorry if that offends you, but it is my point of view.

I consider myself a Moderate and a Patriot. As a moderate patriot if I see our great country going the wrong way, killing innocent people, stealing from the public, lying, cheating, spying and torturing, then it is my duty to both speak out against them, and to cast my vote for the opposition party. And I did just that.

I assure you that I did so with the best interests of our country and all the citizens of that country (even those that disagree with me) as my motive.

Notes

Me too...that would have made Al Gore President in 2000, and Obama wouldn't have such a mess to clean up.



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Larry
The NEW SynthZone Map

OMG...and now he's bringing Hillary back into the mix. Heeeeeeeeeeeeeelp!
Sec of state - yikes.
(fingers crossed)

LEAVE HILLARY ALONE!!!!!!!!



chas

Fingers still crossed... Only time will tell.

Forget the fingers, take your wallet out put it between your legs and then cross them.

You might be able to hang on to a few bucks

LOL

I'm happy until the "S" work takes a hold.
(socialist)
God Bless America, and all who love and believe in us.

Hard to complain about the S word when the current administration supports these never-ending bail-outs. Welfare for the rich. That's why I call myself a conservative, not a republican. Republicans don't seem to have a clue these days.

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 12-08-2008).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FAEbGBD:
[B]Hard to complain about the S word when the current administration supports these never-ending bail-outs. Welfare for the rich. That's why I call myself a conservative, not a republican. Republicans don't seem to have a clue these days.

Finally someone has articulated what I've been feeling. Well Said.

Jerry

So .. how's it going with all the "CHANGE" that is supposed to take place in Washington ?!?!? ... and Hillary didn't even have to campaign against McCain to get back in the White House ...

Well, here in little old RI, the general populace has been moaning about the steady decline of this state for years ... so this past election day they RE-ELECTED the same Democrat Generally Assembly that has been in office for years ...
Now that same General Assembly is talking about new proposed taxes, an additional gas tax, a mileage tax based on how much you drive, and TOLL BOOTHS at the state lines !!! ... and of course the general populace is bitching ...
GO FIGURE !!!


t.