JOINING VARIATIONS TOGETHER-CAN IT BE DONE?

In COMPOSER, I would like to put a VARIATION together with another VARIATION, making it not only longer but having the freedom to copy measures in different places in the length of the VARIATION. I hope I have made myself clear.

Let me spell it out for you. A style has generally 4 measures and you have 4 variations. In COMPOSER, I want to join any two together to make it an 8 measure variation. I realize that I can change the amount of measures in a variation up to 16 but this won't help in joining two or even up to 4 variations together. The problem I find is that trying to put a variation to another, all one does is replace the variation - you don't add to it, regardless of putting in the extra measures to take care of it. It goes back to the 4 measures you are copying. There should be a way to do this. It would be very beneficial to adding fill-ins to the variation, as well.

I think Alec covered this several years ago. Alec, where are you?! I want to be able to do this.

Hi, I succeeded, but it was so timeconsuming, that one must be very passionated to do it (mmm, I was at that time ). Exactly like you I experimented to paste some nice fill-ins and intro's in one variation and didn't get out at first. Than I decided to do it in a very labourious way, for I didn't know better .
Maybe I can better wait if there is a simple way to do this. If there is no reaction and you are still interested, I am willing to share my way how I did it.
Maybe Alec knows a simple way and than my laborious way is not needed?
Greetings,
Cees

OK, here a try.
1-Record a Technics sequence using both variations.
2-Record the Technics into a Midi file -this can be donme with the Technics keyboard.
3-Then select tracks of the accomp. and record them into a style.

This is a rough idea but i think it is the way to go. I have not done this myself.

John C.

Correct John, good thinking; basicly I did it as you described.
1. I copied the desired styles to a disc.
2. Used 'COPY A SINGLE COMPOSER' to choose a specific intro/fill
3. Loaded it to COMPOSER-MEMORY (VAR1, VAR2 etc.)
4. Then record a song with the VAR1, VAR2 changements
5. Converted it into SMF (NX)
6. Using that sequence I deleted the not wanted measures
7. Then 'SEQUENCER TO COMPOSER' copy
and you have one composerstyle-variation,
8. and some tweaking to do maybe

pfeeewwww
Hope you love your keyboard still afterwards
Cees

[This message has been edited by cees (edited 02-26-2006).]

Thanks, John and Cees. Let me understand this. You want me to take Variation 1 and 2, following each other recorded in SEQUENCER to make a total of 8 measures, since each Variation is 4 measures and then copy this from SEQUENCER to COMPOSER? If this is so, what tracks would I use, all of them or just the APC track? This is confusing as hell. I have never been successful using SEQUENCER to COMPOSER.

kn7

I covered this type of composer editing many years ago in the 6000 book, over several chapters step by step with many examples, for example:

First insert 4 new measures on to the end of the pattern, then copy the first 4 measures into the last 4 measures. Then edit the last 4 measures to make them different to the first 4 measures to make a brand new 8 measure pattern.

Now you could take an entirely new pattern track from the easy composer library for example, save it in composer C and copy the track from composer C to a single track, say accomp 5, of composer A making a new variation, using page 2 of the copy. Delete the first 4 measures of the new track leaving the new accompaniment playing for measures 5 to 8 for the new pattern, making the second half of the 8 measure pattern different to the first half.

Now if you want to add a new variation or fills on to the end of an existing variation it can be done on page 2 by copying track by track but only from within the composer so if you use accomp5 to input a new track copied in from composer B or C, you then copy the relevant measures to measures 5 to 8 of another accomp track in composer A, but accomp 5 then cannot be used in the same way without further complication of using further composers B and C because it has been used as the transfer path.

So you use the sequencer, play or step record one 4 measure variation followed by the other in C major, then APC to SMF convert all 8 tracks, then SEQ to composer copy the 8 measures. A new 8 measure composer of exactly what you require!

The disadvantage of the sequencer method is you lose the balance information, so just adjust the internal composer balances to their previous levels etc in the Composer Part Setting page, and possibly any dsps or digital effects etc.

This was described in the book putting automatic fills within the composer pattern so you don't have to press a fill button, but is just as relevant for another variation.

Thanks, guys. Glad you surfaced, Alec. Unfortunately, I don't have your book. Since I understand it is no longer available, I had always hoped the keyboard guru would come riding in on a white horse and hand me an autographed copy. Fat chance.

Guys, I'm getting nowhere. Here is what I did:

I brought up Easy Record and recorded Variation 1 and Variation 2 in SEQUENCER. I then went to SEQ TO COMPOSER COPY and this is where I'm lost. I changed the amount of measures to 8 on the left side of the screen, since I recorded 8. I see the names of parts that are in COMPOSER on the right but I don't know what to assign to what track. I did what I thought might work by putting DRUM1 to Track 1, DRUM2 to Track 2, and ACCOMP5 to what I thought would be Track 3 and worked my way up with the rest. I then pressed OK. Going to COMPOSER, I hear nothing on any track.

Alec, your first paragraph is what I said I did in my top post. I find that you don't have to copy the last 4 measures when you increase the variation to 8. It automatically repeats the 4 measures starting in measure 5.

Copying the same variations in Memory B or C to make changes in Memory A, I have missed your point. I tried it. Anytime I try to add a variation to another, I get the same amount of measures. Too bad it reverts to the measures you copy. I wish one could keep whatever is assigned in the pattern to copy to.

I hope I have made myself clear as to what I am doing wrong. Why am I not getting any sound in COMPOSER when I supposedly have copied the tracks from SEQUENCER? It seems to accept what I have done when I press OK. It immediately takes me into COMPOSER and I see the beats moving but no sound. The volume of tracks are up.

Sorry this thick head isn't getting it.

It's me, again. Alec, you said and I quote, "So you use the sequencer, play or step record one 4 measure variation followed by the other in C major, then APC to SMF convert all 8 tracks, then SEQ to composer copy the 8 measures. A new 8 measure composer of exactly what you require!"

I don't understand the "APC to SMF convert all 8 tracks" - sorry. Tell me what to do after I have recorded Variation 1 and 2 in SEQUENCER.

Hi,

Is it just possible, that if you tell us 'WHY' you want to do this, and 'HOW' you intend to use it, more of us might be able to assist. ?

The difference between sequencing and actual 'live' playing, is such, that the technique of doing something, changes from one circumstance to another. !! - So, why not let us know precisely what you intend doing with this piece of wizardry. - Cheers,

Colin.

Hi KN7, can you describe exactly which var's, fill-ins or .. you whish to 'paste'/make together? Then I will try to guide you step-by-step if you agree?
Cees

The measure copy may not work all the time depending on how the original pattern was created, the insert then copy works all the time. The individual track copy is on page 2 of the pattern copy menu and allows individual track to track from source to composer.

the sequencer route is easy:

you have your new C major 8 measures cleanly in the sequencer... use step record if you get glitches pushing buttons live.

on the APC to SMF page, just arrange tracks 9 to 16 in order down the page, drum1, drum2, bass, acc1, acc2, acc3, acc4, acc5. Press convert wait till play stops.

go to sequencer to composer copy page. From left to right set measure first 1, last 8 (assuming these correspond to your sequencer measures), select a composer variation to place the pattern, in the track column put 9 at the top down to 16 at the bottom. Press Ok. Exit out, make sure the sequencer play is OFF and play the composer pattern normally.

You will have to balance as described above.

It is early morning in the States so the brain is thick. Thanks for all your posts. I understand better about the tracks and how this is done. I'll try it this evening. The day is full.

Colin and Cees - I want to have the versatility of being able to add a fill-in to a variation, as well as say, the first measure of Intro 1 (major) in a pattern (style) but want to use measures 2, 3 & 4 in Intro 2 (major) in the pattern. The usage of Pattern/Style, I never know what is preferred. To me, they are the same thing.

Well, I have tried what I think I understand what you said to do and it doesn't work.

I understand most but I don't know what you mean by "on the APC to SMF page, just arrange tracks 9 to 16 in order down the page, drum1, drum2, bass, acc1, acc2, acc3, acc4, acc5. Press convert wait till play stops." You must not be speaking of the SEQ to COMPOSER page for there is no press covert and wait till play stops. Where is this page?

According to the manual, which is no help at all, it says nothing about converting. I tried putting 9 through 16 in the SEQ to COMPOSER page and that doesn't work. Going into COMPOSER and looking in PART SETTING, everything is backwards - drums show Unison Horns and Symphonic Strings. The rest of the parts show Piano and NO SOUNDS playing.

Please, have a look on my homepage, under Tips&Tricks, item 'MIDI- how to convert from APC to SMF' nr. K1. Maybe it helps you?
Cees

the APC to SMF page is in the sequencer menu, copy & paste, APC to SMF convert. Change the tracks on the right hand side of the screen as described (it's on page 104 of the manual).

WELL, GEE!!!! I DID IT!!!!

I finally found some time to get back to the keyboard. Thanks, very much, Alec. This was sooooooooooo hard to figure out until you stated that I had to go to COPY & PASTE to find the damn APC to SMF CONVERT. I apologize for being thick on this one. I promise to improve on more complex matters. Just out of interest, why should one have to convert this? It seems all that would be necessary is to do a sequenced pattern and put in the right amount of measures in the SEQ TO COMPOSER COPY, play the sequencer and it would put it in the variation selected. Anyway it copied perfectly. Out of interest, all I recorded in SEQUENCER was APC and CTRL. I was surprised that I had to list all the tracks in APC to SMF CONVERT because I only actually recorded APC in SEQUENCER.

excellent
because the sequencer doesn't contain any pattern information in easy record, just pointers to the presets or composers or customs which contain the backing. To get the actual pattern in the sequencer the notes have to be written out to individual tracks in the same way you would create a midi file, track by track. That's why it's called APC (auto play) to SMF (midi file) convert. Without those notes there, there is nothing to copy to the composer.

Thanks, Alec for explaining how this works. The way you described it makes perfect sense. I have never given much thought of the actual function of the APC. I just knew it worked and it was a necessary track in SEQUENCER to record a style. It is comparable to a story about a woman who lived most of her life in the city. She moved to the country and she had no water coming out of her faucets. A man checked out the problem and told her that her well was dry. She replied, "I don't CARE if the well is dry, I just want water coming out of my faucet."

if we could design an easy play keyboard working on her principle of the dry well we could be millionaires