APC TO SMF TO NX (Survey)

Hello All:

As you can see, I been posting questions lately about the sequencer. I'm really trying my best to understand the converting concept from Technics format to NX. I'm formulating a procedure (trying to) but really getting disappointed with the way Technics has built this feature.

* I like to take a survey for any Technics model you have that has the APC to SMF convert and NX feature.

The NX feature I'm referring has a few steps from beginning to end:
1. Record using your preferred method (Easy Record w/APC for example).
2. APC to SMF convert.
3. Save as NX midi file.

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* What model(s) is your feedback from?

* Are you familiar with NX? Confused? Lack of "how to" information?

* Would you like to use the NX feature? If you like to but you're not, explain why?

* Do you use NX? Tried, but not the outcome expected? To much labor intense?

* Do you feel you would use this feature if it was improved?

* Not interested in the NX feature? Don't use it and plan not to?

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Hopefully someone from Technics monitors this forum time to time and seeing the feedback may make a difference.

NOTE: Please be assured I'm not affiliated with Technics or any other keyboard manufacturer. Just a plain average person trying to gather information in this area.

Thanks in advance,
Anthony

Hey what-a-ya-know a survey.

* What model(s) is your feedback from?
PR804

* Are you familiar with NX? Yes...
* Confused? You betya...
* Lack of "how to" information? Definately!

* Would you like to use the NX feature? Yes!

* Do you use NX? Tried, but not the outcome expected?
Yes outcome file is not what was expected.

* To much labor intense? Oh Yes! The APC to SMF does not input the instrument changes when using the panel memory buttons. Volume settings also are not transferred over. The person will have to manually enter these in. Aggghhhh...

* Do you feel you would use this feature if it was improved? OH YES! I would use it more.

Anthony

Hi Anthony,
as far as NX goes, I thought it was just some sort of a sound setup similar, to rolands GS, Yamaha's XG. Basically an extension to General Midi which allows them to add additional sounds via bank changes (and possibly incorporates effects).

Must admit I haven't really checked into NX, but if it' not what I thought it was, please let me know.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Rikki.

You could be right about your interpretation of NX. I haven't looked at it in that prespective. But I believe NX can go beyond that, we have something in the newer Technics models with NX that no one seems to be exploring. Noticed I said "seems"...

Technics would have to include an in depth manual explaining this feature. The lack of NX information I believe is really the major cause that this feature is not being used that much.

Of course Technics will have to improve the APC to SMF convert feature to really make this more user friedly and more practical.

Not sure when the first KN model got the NX feature but just think. There are folks out there who just can't buy a new KN or PR everytime a new model comes out. How many KN6000\6500 users are out there that are unable to play the many songs recorded on the KN7000 downloadable from websites? Answer NX... Assuming the KN6x00 has NX.

Same situation on my end. KN models can not load and play the PR804 recorded formated songs. BUT... what if converted to NX???

The APC to SMF convert really needs some upgrading though. If you use panel memory to change the settings with-in a song, APC to SMF convert does not carry the instrument and volume settings. The person would have to take note where these changes occured in the song and manually "step record" them in.

If Technics would find away to automate the sounds and volume, and include an in depth intruction manual on how to create a NX file. I believe this can be an alternative format for those who have NX that are unable to play the Technics formated files.

I work for a mining company, and in the mining industry this would be called a "by-product".

Anthony

Converting a SMF into NX will allow the keyboard to replace any GM instruments with Technics sampled instruments that it recognizes. This allows you to use the much better sounding Technics instruments instead of the poorer sounding GM instruments. For example, a GM trumpet will be replaced with a Technics trumpet, etc. You will also have full Technics keyboard control over the instrument sound. Whenever I load a midi backing track into my KN6500, I always load using the GM --> NX conversion. Much better sounding. Hope this helps.

Peter

Hi Peter:

Thanks for your interest in this area. Yes, NX can be used like you say. I believe it could be more then that.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if you could play KN7000 formatted files on your KN6500? I don't think that’s possible. But if the KN7000 files were converted to NX midi using APC to SMF, then you would be able to. This is the message I'm trying to get across. NX is just not limited to loading General midi into NX sound, but taking advantage of Technics APC recorded songs and converting it to NX midi.

The problem that I'm finding out, is that there is not that much info regarding this area. That could be a marketing strategy by Technics, because if people were able to convert their Technics format files to NX easily then why get the next model?

I guess Technics must have someone from Microsoft on how to exploit so much features but yet not enough so the users have to get the next model, and the next model, etc... It's interesting that the older models can not play the newer models formatted files. I wonder why that is?$

Along with lack of information, Technics does need to upgrade their APC to SMF convert feature to be more effective. As I mentioned before, when the panel memory button is used, the instrument sound and volume does not transfer over into NX which has to be done manually. Which can be a turn off (a pain) resulting in not using this feature. Again, is this a marketing ploy by Technics?

I'm just trying to get a handle of this feature and see what can come out of it. Nothing to loose, but just look at what can be gained?

Anthony

Hi Anthony,
I don't think any keyboards are backward compatible as far as styles go ( except for the Yamahas who's styles are actually based on a midifile, and even then they're not 100% compatible because of the sounds themselves.
The quality of sound improves with each generation of keyboard and you also find that upmarket keyboards usually have better sounds than the lower priced ones, even though they may be using the same type of sounds ( Yamaha XG). For instance, I have a Roland VA7 (GS) and I also have a
Roland GS Sound Canvas module. When I play the same GS midifile on the Va7 it sounds far better than it does on the Sound Canvas yet they both have the same gs sounds.
Just say my old kn5 was actually had an nx sound source. I would hope that my new kn7 would sound better than a 5 or 6 year old kn5. So if the kn7 sounds better they've obviously had to change something. A sequence is still not going to sound exactly the same on the kn5 as it does on the kn7 even if it has NX.

I'm not sure I undestand the hassles you're having with the apc to smf convert?
Are you saving with Panel Header "On"
I would imagine in most cases you'd save a midifile as nx if you were going to share with kn7 users. The only time I'd save as GM would be to share with a non nx user. Then it would be up to them to tweak the sequence and find sounds that work.

Unfortunately that's the problem with most midifiles ( if not played on the original type of machine), they have to be tweaked , so they sound good on the machine you're planning to use them on.

Actually , there were far more hassles pre GM. I remember the days when synths all had their own sound & drum setups. At that stage you had just about no hope, if you wanted to play a song that had been created for a different manufactures synth. The drums didn't match, the sounds didn't match. Your song could be playing a bass drum instead of a hihat or a violin instead of a piano.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Rikki,

Thanks for your input.

You asked, "Are you saving with Panel Header "On"? Yes I am, and it does need to be on.

Hmmm, actually its not the converting process that is causing the problem. It is how the panel memory is stored in the sequencer tracks. And what the APC/SMF convert can do with what it has to work with.

For example, R1 is on track one. I will start out with Pan Flute for R1, set panel memory #1 with trumpet on R1, set panel memory #2 with piano on R1. So, here I am recording, using pan flute first and in the 15th measure I press panel button #1, sound changes to trumpet and then in the 35th measure I press panel button #2 and now the piano is the sound. Recording is finished, save as Technics format. Playback and all plays back like it should.

Convert using APC/SMF and what you get is the song with pan flute playing all the way through the whole song. The trumpet and piano will not come in. That's because no instrument changes were recorded on the control track, just the panel memory. Looking at track #1 for R1 using step record, no information on what instrument was set when the panel memory buttons were pressed at measures 15 and 35. Thus APC/SMF convert had no information to use to make the changes. Here is where the upgrade is needed. When pressing a panel memory button, it should also input the instrument and it's volume setting. And of course R2 and Left when those are used. Keeping in mind for APC/SMF convert…

You mention, "I would imagine in most cases you'd save a midi file as NX if you were going to share with kn7 users." I would save a Technics recorded APC song as NX and share with other Technics users, hopefully all who have NX. But as you mentioned the newer the model the sound may not be quite the same on the older ones. But who knows with NX…

You mentioned, "The only time I'd save as GM would be to share with a non NX users." Yes but not interested in GM, really want to concentrate on NX that in all reality is a specialized GM midi file for Technics instruments.

Anthony

in its simplest terms: Smf is standard midi file, a format laid down in specification that all keyboard makers sign up to, eg each instrument is on its own track, max 24 polyphony, limited set of voices and effects etc.

Panel memory is a technics easy play feature, each maker has his own version of panel memory, with no agreement or specification how it should be implemented because each maker has his own proprietry operating system. Technics panel memory can control hundreds or parameters that cannot be saved in smf becuase they are proprietry features of the keyboard with no universal specification that other makers would recognise.

It would be perfectly possible to make a program to change a technics easy recording into separate tracks with all the technics features but you would end up with a multitrack recording that could not be played on other keyboards because it would contain features that other keyboards could not reproduce. Even going from 7k back to 6k you would miss samples which would be substituted perhaps with wrong octaves or unsuitable dsps or required controller events which no longer exist or cannot be reproduced, and thus come out sounding quite wrong, let alone going from technics to yamaha or roland.

The reason easy record exists is because making a midi file is more difficult - there are no easy play features in midi files. Smf is extremely limited compared to technics format in sounds, effects, edits and controllers, but smf is the only universal format we have to swap information between different brands of keyboard, and if you advertise the ability to make an smf you have to stick to the agreed spec.

Hello:

I understand the two concepts: Technics format and SMF, they are different indeed.

Here's the road block. It's great that Technics has the APC/SMF convert feature. But it's not complete.

When recording using the APC and panel memories, the instruments and their vol are not saved in the sequencer anywhere. So when the APC/SMF convert is use, it has no way of telling what instruments were changed to the corresponding panel memory buttons.

What is needed, is when the panel memory buttons are used during an APC record, that it saves the sounds and vol in that track. If R1 then track one, when the panel memory button is pressed (say in measure 20) and it is a flute, track one (R1) should then show flute with its vol setting in measure 20, the control track should still show the panel memory. Having this info on track one (R1), the APC/SMF convert can take that info and use it to change the sounds.

To me, why have APC/SMF convert if it can't have the different sound changes when using the panel memory buttons. Of course one could spend extra time manually entering it, but G-Wiz, that is very time consuming...

Anthony

...but that is the definition of making a midi file
what I'm trying to explain is that for instance your example of changing the instrument on track 1 to a flute at measure 20 is no longer a standard midi file.

Maybe I'm not getting my point across correctly.

Technicsplayer, said, "for instance your example of changing the instrument on track 1 to a flute at measure 20 is no longer a standard midi file."

The point is, the flute never was changed because panel memory was used.

I reccorded a 12 measure example tune using R1/Track One not using panel memory:

Piano = Measures 1 - 3

I clicked on the Electric Piano button.
Electric Piano = Measures 4 - 8.

I clicked on Modern Piano.
Modern Piano = Measures 9 - 12.

End record.

Looking at Track One (R1) using step record, I can see each instrument change point mark (Astrisk).

I converted it using the APC/SMF convert feature, saved as a NX midi. Loaded, and played back. Because I didn't use panel memory, all 3 instruments sounds played back. "The example tune when played had all three instruments sounding."

If panel memory was used instead, I would only have the piano sound in the tune.

Technics should have it where when panel memory is used, that it also saves an Astrisk mark on the R1 track when a change of instrument is done. This way, when APC/SMF convert is used, it will have a reference to the changes so it can make the changes. Right now, using panel memory, there is no instrument change marks.

Anthony

apc to smf converts auto accompaniment patterns (apc = auto play chord) to their individual notes as a template for standard midi files, it is not designed to do anything to the R1 track for instance, so is not really the function to use for this example.

The problem is not with the APC/SMF convert feature. It's main function as you say is for the APC part, but it also converts R1, R2 and Left during the convert process. It doesn't ignore those tracks.

Entering instrument changes on R1 using the instrument buttons directly when recording will put a "*" on R1 with the name of the instrument sound. APC/SMF will see that and carry it over in the convert process. Thus you will end up with the instrument changes on R1.

That's what's missing when panel memory is used. Panel memory does not carry the sounds to the R1 track. That means when the APC/SMF convert is used, it has no information on R1 and therefore does not make the instrument change.

I'm suggesting that Technics could improve this just by including the instrument sounds in R1 when a panel memory button is pressed. Ditto on R2 and Left by the way.

APC/SMF convert needs to see something to tell it to change the sound. Entering the sound directly does just that, but pressing a panel memory button, it doesn't.

Anthony

I understand what you want, but this is a totally new function, and really nothing to do with apc to smf convert which converts only auto accompaniment tracks. I can't understand why you think R1 is converted because it is ignored in the process. Whatever is in R1 before apc conversion is the same after apc conversion unless you overwrite it with an accompaniment track.

Your wish is to change a technics easy recording using panel memories into a technics multitrack recording requiring all control changes in each track. This is really a lot more complicated than just carrying over voice and volume changes from panel memory and a little like wanting to change apples into pears, if I may use an analogy, which is why the sequencer has completely different setup templates for these two different methods of recording. It may be one day with a fast processor and large software module, but complicated.

By the way I could add to your first query, NX is just a sound set like XG or GS, and there are many other factors determining whether files from different machines are compatible. Making an NX midi on the 7000 to play on a 6000 would be the same as making a standard midi file to play on the 6000 except that the sounds are better but some samples will be missing so you will get random strange results, which would obviously not be the case with a general midi.

Hi Alec:

Glad you understand what I was thinking and trying to get across. Sad that the instrument changes in R1, R2 and Left have to be added manually. Sure would be great if at least a few settings were carried over to the these tracks when panel memory is used.

Maybe there’s another way this can be accomplished. Maybe the APC/SMF convert should not ignore R1 R2 and Left and carry over the panel memory setting during the convert process. After all when the song is being converted using APC/SMF it is being played and the sounds are changing. Sooooo... I guess then maybe the APC/SMF could use the upgrade by not ignoring R1 R2 and left when converting.

Thanks, Alec and all who has interest in this area. Good solid feedback on this. Hope others are reading and taking note…

Anthony

there's always room for improvement. Other systems actually use midi files in the sequencer, so it is easier to make a midi file, but the downside of this is the editing available on board is both far less comprehensive and considerably less easy to use than the technics system, so pros and cons...