ATTENTION ALL KEYBOARD MANUFACTURERS.

ATTENTION ALL KEYBOARD MANUFACTURERS.
There is a rumor out that there may be a windows operating system in a new keyboard coming out. This would be one of the world's greatest mistakes. I believe this would create an entire new world of piano players
I own 11 keyboards now and have had maybe 20 others so I have enough to last me from my age on. I want you to know that I will never buy a keyboard with a windows operating system, and I doubt that many current member/player/musicians will.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!!!
BEBOP

Bebop, this is Grandpa Doug. I have run Mac here in my business (three of them) since 1986. Have played around with the other ones and other than finding the OS rather clumsy why do you say what you say? My personal Mac that I use for the net and my music endeavors has never had any problems with worms or virus infections but other than that I wonder what's wrong with the Gates clumsy version of windows for keyboards. Sorry, I guess if you never used a Mac I suppose you would think MS Windows is a big improvement over the geek type of DOS. Guess I tend to always take the easy and elegant way.

Grandpa Doug

HI DOUG,
Thanks for your reply. I have no problem with Mac other then that they abandoned the music industry a lot of years ago, so we all ported over to Amigas. I still have the two hopped up Amiga 2500's that used to run this recording studio.
When Amiga died I had to port over to Windows and have had them all from 3.1 to current XP. I have been through all the windows ringers and would never consider a keyboard running windows.
Hope that answers your inquiery.
I want to compliment you on some excellent well thought out in depth posts that you have been making recently. You are appreciated
Best to you
Bebop

I am confused as to what would adding Windows to a keyboard bring about as far as advantages and disadvantages is concerned.

From the bad side:

Would it add a $1000 or more to the cost of the keyboard?

Would it require a colossal increase in memory size in the keyboard?

Would it detract from the keyboard's ability to create as good a quality sound and overall musical enjoyment?

Wouldl it take away from the manufacturer the freedom of doing it's own thing and not have to be restricted to Microsoft's whims. etc?

On the good side:

Would it make the manufacturer's job easier in that they could concentrate more on the musical creation side of their product, such as better sounds; patterns; etc., and leave the file management, storage, etc., to computer experts?

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Maybe somebody could enlighten us on what the real issues would be if such a thing became reality.

Thanks,

Larry

I for one, can see no advantage in incorporating Windows into any keyboard especially if it's of the XP variety.

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Willum

Hi folks,
with a 'healthy portion of resistance' I would plead for a more grown-up (technical) operation system in the keyboard. With my limited knowledge of this I could imagine that the nowadays O.S.system of the keyboards seems to me as by comparising DOS with Windows. Pointing at the whishlist from last july to Technics, I remember a lot of 'critique' at the 'un-user-friendliness' of the O.S, or something like that.
A 'compromise' could be: a easy and well working connection to a computer and all could be change by computer in the KN...



Cees

Hi Guys,
if I'm not mistaken, doesn't the rather expensive Wersi Keyboard run on a windows system ? or are you referring to something different?

best wishes
Rikki

NEVER say NEVER

what's new about this?
I must have played the abacus at the last 2 Frankfurt shows, so it's been around for several years at least?

I must really be thick in the head. What is wrong with windows OS in a keyboard? In plain language, what would be so bad about that? I think the skin is getting thinner but the head is getting thicker.

Grandpa Doug

Forgot to ask. What is a windows ringer?

Grandpa Doug

PS. I'm not really hip on windows lingo!

Hello, I can't resist but, just think...

You have a windows based keyboard, your playing in public, lots of people, good vibes, everything is going perfect. THEN IT HAPPENS! The keyboard locks up and you have to reboot!!! Right in the middle of the song... Not once, but many times.

A music virus attacks the keyboard and now the keboard starts playing songs off key. Worse, the virus formats the system, and you end up with a blank keyboard. Hmmm, right in the middle of playing a tune in public.

Anthony

Douglas Dean. There have been a number of occasions at Wersi concerts and demonstrations that the keyboards have locked-up (Wersi use WinXP OS) To reboot the board can take several minutes leaving an embarrassed player waiting on stage.
You state you have had no problems with your MAC. The reason is the MAC OS is very good and stable.
Spend some time with a Microsoft OS PC, then you will see the reason players do not want a MS Windows based keyboard.
I have good knowledge of PC's after many years of putting problems right (Still learning every day) I would never buy a board built around MS Windows.

Graham

Gee Whizz Graham, thanks much. You done a great job explaining. Had no idea the system was so unstable. Always thought the reason most people used MS windows was because of reliability even though it was not so user friendly as Mac. Guess one is never too old to learn. Come to think about it, one of the reasons other than the great sound and user friendly OS, I have always liked the technics boards is because of its reliability. Never has let me down on a job after all these years. No wonder Bebop said what he said. Don’t mess with my board.

Grandpa Doug

Hi all,

I totally agree with the anti-Windows sentiments. Having spent two hours this afternoon sorting out a problem with XP on my friend's PC, I have no wish to see it incorporated in my keyboard. It works fine just the way it is.

Cheers
Len C.

[This message has been edited by manorcourt1991 (edited 09-12-2003).]

Although I have not had problems with XP since Sevice Pack 1 was installed, I totally agree that a keyboard operating system should be completely tailored for the job it is to do.
There is very little that I can see that would be common to any PC operating system, whether it be Windows or MAC, except in these areas:

[*]Display driver - The keyboard only requires a simple driver. (A larger text screen with choice of font sizes for lyrics would be nice)

[*]File handling system. Here is where I believe that Panasonic could learn from the PC boys. I don't see why the SD Card has to be so awkward and require special software to interface the Card with the PC. My digital camera has a file system that is common in characteristics to the PC, The memory card is easily accessed for read and write and file management with any garden variety card reader.

Walt

[This message has been edited by Walt Meyer (edited 09-12-2003).]

I have spoken at length with wersi at various times and their story is the windows operating system is completely stripped down with non-applicable sections taken out - this has been done since win98 so there is nothing particularly new here.
A keyboard with cubase or sonar built in like the abacus would be an interesting concept, even though I remain doubtful at the present time over the stability, even though XP (SP1+) is probably the best windows yet.
Much more important, having used hard drive streaming sample generators they would open up a whole new ball game in sound quality, albeit at a price. You only need to listem to B4, FM7 etc for half a second to see that.
The reason MACS are so stable (but ask the people who moved to 10 early!) is that the peripherals and software is limited and therefore easy to debug fully in relatively fast time. The reason windows is less stable, apart from the laziness and incompetance of microsoft, is that there is a huge range of hardware/software to load in and interact with each other and windows to cause conflicts.

Douglas Dean. The main problem with MS OS systems is that most programs you install send files into the Windows directory. Very often when those same programs are uninstalled a number of files are left behind.
I Install & un-install a number of programs to try each week. Eventually the PC gets slower & slower due to all this clutter left behind.
There are a number of programs available one can install that can delete this clutter within reason.

The windows operating system can be reliable. PC’s used in the Office are very often used as they are purchased and very little programs are added. These then are reliable and in most cases stable.

If one never installs new programs onto a PC, which possibly a lot of uses don't, then Windows OS will usually run fine.
But just from my experience I would not want a board based on MS OS System.

Graham UK

The advantage of a Windows based keyboard would be the ability to add new sounds (sound fonts), new styles, even new hardware, without having to purchase a whole new keyboard. I upgraded my keyboard just to get a new flute sound. I bought the case, keybed, amplifier, speakers, o/s, styles, manual,box, just to get the flute sound. See how silly that seems? . If I had a Windows system, I would have purchased 1 flute sound font.
Starkeeper

You know, if Windows is going to have a place in the keyboard world. A good place for it is converting file formats from one another. From one Brand to another Brand. Or in the Technics World from Model to Model including cross model converting from PR to KN and vice-versa. This is where software shines at, is in the world of converting different file formats.

It sure would be great to have a converting software package that can take a KN5000 style in composer/panel memory format and convert it to load and play on the PR804. Or convert a PR804 style format and be able to load and play on the KN6500.

Anthony

Starkeeper. What you suggest is the last thing the keyboard manufacturer wants....he's there to try to sell you keyboards every year.

In reality a manufacture does not want to produce an updatable keyboard....he would no longer make any sales apart from possibly hardware upgrades.

Graham UK

[This message has been edited by Graham UK (edited 09-13-2003).]

I have thought for many years now that soomer rather than later some keyboard manufacturer is going to come up with the bright idea of the home musician having one computer in his room to play music, games, write letters, dtp, email, surf internet and all the other things you can do on a pc if you want to. After all, the screen is getting as big as a laptop ( come to think of it, why not install a laptop or PDA into the keyboard. I have often found it very distracting to watch two LCD's even when you can get them close together. We now have Gb SD's. Just add a few ram chips and an OS most people are familiar with and the music industry will declare it the best thing since sliced bread!!!

MS Windows may not be as stable is one would like, but I'll never forget my KN6000 locking up in the middle of a song I was playing before an audience of about 70-80 people.

Mike

There are already a couple of keyboards running Windows, eKo http://www.openlabs.com/products.php
and Abacus http://www.wersi.uk.com/abacus.htm


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 09-15-2003).]

One of the main reasons that Windows would not be suitable for a Keyboard O/S is that Windows was never designed as a "real-time" operating system. When playing a keybaord the system has to respond almost instantly to events especially key-presses and changes in instrument patches etc. Anyone who has used a PC with Windows will tell you of the times it needs to go away and think about things and this would be completely unacceptable in a playing situation. The O/S on Technics Yamaha etc may have their failings, but at least they are optimised for the instrument responding within a milli-second or 2 to key press actions by the player. Other dedicated computers, such as the engine management system on your car have to be designed in the same way and I dont think anyone is suggesting that Windows is used as the O/S for car fuel systems.

Windows has achieved its pre-eminence as a file management system, not as a real-time control system.

Having had a look at the web pages suggested by Nigel, I'm wondering just how much the two keyboards in question, actually use Windows as the prime operating system. Could they be using a dedicated control and operating system for the 'Musical' side of things and just have a Windows PC incorporated in the same cabinet? In the Spec for the eKo unit, they quote 'Micro-ATX Formfactor Motherboard - obviously the PC and an Alpha Control Module, which could possibly be the 'Musical' controller

A bit like tying a laptop to your KNxxxx albeit with a greater degree of integration.

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Willum

If you buy a piano, you won't come back the following year to get a new piano update, because the sound is not modern enough. The piano mfgs should be out of business by now.
The problem I have with the mfgs. wanting to sell me a keyboard every year is that "I" have to pay for it. The re-sale value on my instrument is rather low for an instrument that is in perfect condition and only 1 year old.
Starkeeper

Re my previous post, I emailed the manufactures of the eKo keyboard and asked them to what extent Windows was involved in the actual production of the musical sounds...
They replied "The Windows operating system does not directly produce the musical sounds. Those are generated from the software applications and plug-ins. The eKo is more of a PC / synthesiser integration."
Interesting..........

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Willum

Every year? Wow!

Grandpa Doug