Live Drums vs Audio Drums

Posted by: stkeys

Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 12/08/17 07:20 AM

Can anyone explain to me the difference between "Live Drums" found on the SD9 and "Audio Drums"
Posted by: andy6204

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 12/08/17 12:03 PM

it's like me , i don't know the difference
Posted by: Ketron_AJ

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 12/08/17 10:06 PM

Both Live Audio Drums and Live Drums are played by Live drummers, but here is where/how they differ:

Live Drums (Grooves):- Initially played by a drummer, then cut/time sliced and reproduced by Midi notes/controlled by a machine/keyboard.

PROS:- More control especially with style tempo. More 'editable' than Audio Drums as individual 'parts' can be replaced or deleted from track.

CONS:- Loss of some 'authenticity' associated with the drum kit

=================================================================

Live AUDIO Drums (Audio Drums)- Initially played by a drummer as a wave file. Machine/keyboard simply streams this audio file as was recorded from a source (SSD or HD) and plays.

PROS:- The most authentic 'drummer' you'll ever have. Entire drum set and ambient surrounding the drum kits is reproduced. KETRON provided the capability to vary the tempo of the audio drums with no change to pitch giving you some flexibility as to how you can use/synchronize them with styles and Midifiles.

CONS:- Either you like it as delivered or you hate it as there is minimum you can edit with the audio file. In the AUDYA series, you are giving a DRUM EQ which you can use to say select a particular frequency and increase/decrease it's db thus you can to some extend edit say the frequency that predominantly affects the snare drum, or kick drum ... etc and thus lower or increase the 'volume' of the 'snare' or 'kick', but you cannot replace individual drum instruments or change the audio track.

To compensate for this, KETRON allows you to record and use your own Audio drums with either factory styles, your user styles or midifiles!

Live Drums (Grooves) are used in:-
* SD1/SD1 Plus
* SD5/SD3
* SD7/SD40
* SD9 Pro (Drum 2 Track)
* AUDYA series (Drum 2 Track)

Live AUDIO Drums (Wave files) are used in-
* AUDYA series (Drum 1 & 2 Tracks)
* SD9 Pro (Drum 1 Track)

Hope this helps.

Thanks,
Posted by: stkeys

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 12/10/17 03:28 PM

Thanks AJ, I find it strange then that while testing out how to Sync Cubase to the SD9 my results were as follows.

Styles that contain "Live Drums" didn't stay in Sync.
Styles with "Audio Drums" did stay in sync. ( at least some of the styles )

If the Live Drums are Midi notes/controlled by a machine/keyboard I would have thought they would stay in Sync more so than the Audio Drums.

Getting Cubase to Stay in sync with the SD40 and Audya 5 or 4 was hit and miss.... some styles worked slightly better than others.

I'm still not 100% happy with the results on any of the ketron/audya keyboards/modules when it comes to staying in sync with Cubase.
Posted by: nightowl

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 12/11/17 03:29 AM

I've the same problem using Logic Pro X, and "Audya 4, it sync OK for about halfway of the song and than style start to slowing down , it does't keep up with midi clock.
Posted by: Ketron_AJ

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 12/11/17 02:33 PM

Originally Posted By stkeys
Thanks AJ, I find it strange then that while testing out how to Sync Cubase to the SD9 my results were as follows.

Styles that contain "Live Drums" didn't stay in Sync.
Styles with "Audio Drums" did stay in sync. ( at least some of the styles )

If the Live Drums are Midi notes/controlled by a machine/keyboard I would have thought they would stay in Sync more so than the Audio Drums.

Getting Cubase to Stay in sync with the SD40 and Audya 5 or 4 was hit and miss.... some styles worked slightly better than others.

I'm still not 100% happy with the results on any of the ketron/audya keyboards/modules when it comes to staying in sync with Cubase.


This is part of the reason we recommend to folks not to use KETRON product with audio styles as a slave when connected to any other midi device, unless using Midi styles. The problem is in the processor being able to handle both timing of audio elements (regardless of midi trigger or streaming) and perfect interpretation of the midi in clock.
A quick fix is to select a midi style similar to the audio and use that (minus the drums) to lay down the track you want to create in Cubase - then come back and lay down the audio drums.... less tasking of the processor :-(

Hope this helps.

Thanks,

AJ
Posted by: Bachus

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 12/15/18 06:00 AM

Back at this...

Will i be able to create live drums and audio drums my self and use them in the SD9/SD90?

I have a huge collection of audio drum loops inside logic..
That i want to use in creating my own styles...
Posted by: IMMusic_Curt

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 12/15/18 06:27 AM

Not really what you are asking to do but you could put the loops together as you want in Logic, bounce the track(s) to a wav file and load that into the SD90. More of "drum sequence" vs. a style that you are asking about. Just a thought and another way of creating something a little different.
Posted by: Bachus

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 12/15/18 07:12 AM

Originally Posted By IMMusic_Curt
Not really what you are asking to do but you could put the loops together as you want in Logic, bounce the track(s) to a wav file and load that into the SD90. More of "drum sequence" vs. a style that you are asking about. Just a thought and another way of creating something a little different.


So i can’t convert those wav’s to live drums (can do this on the pa4x) nor use them as audio drums?

I hope ketron adds this with the next update and the sample option.

Its important for people that they can be creative and share this with other users.

Its not that ketron needs to discourage creativeness like Yamaha does, because they want to sell their expansion packs, as ketron does not really sell expansions..
Posted by: IMMusic_Curt

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 12/15/18 08:46 AM

Hmm - An exciting challenge. I found this in the manual:

You can create User Audio Drums (Wave 44,100, 16-bit) using specific Audio Editor Software, or by importing User Audio Drums which were already created for the AUDYA series keyboards.
Whatever the origin of these files is, the SD9 Pro can "locate" and manage them through the DRUM part of the Modeling feature. In order to be properly recognized and utilized, these audio files must have the following name structure and assigned as such:-

That section of the manual goes on to describe how to name the files for the different parts of a style. I'm thinking you could take a loop that you like in Logic, bounce to a wav, name it as a fill, beak, arranger part "A," "B," etc. to make the SD90 happy. The only thing is that would be using the audio in the loop vs. what is in the SD90. Would that matter? In addition to Logic shipping with audio loops, it also ships with a number of MIDI loops that you could work with. I'll also mention another interesting feature in Logic if you haven't tried it. It's called "Drummer". By moving various sliders and turning knobs, you can influence how complex a pattern it will play. There are various genres to pick from when you start. Same thought, if you find something you like, bounce it to a wav and transfer over to the SD90 and work with it in the Modeling feature.

It just started to rain, and the wife is out shopping with her sister - Maybe I'll mess around a little with this. Sounds like FUN!
Posted by: Bachus

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 12/15/18 09:12 AM

Originally Posted By IMMusic_Curt
Hmm - An exciting challenge. I found this in the manual:

You can create User Audio Drums (Wave 44,100, 16-bit) using specific Audio Editor Software, or by importing User Audio Drums which were already created for the AUDYA series keyboards.
Whatever the origin of these files is, the SD9 Pro can "locate" and manage them through the DRUM part of the Modeling feature. In order to be properly recognized and utilized, these audio files must have the following name structure and assigned as such:-

That section of the manual goes on to describe how to name the files for the different parts of a style. I'm thinking you could take a loop that you like in Logic, bounce to a wav, name it as a fill, beak, arranger part "A," "B," etc. to make the SD90 happy. The only thing is that would be using the audio in the loop vs. what is in the SD90. Would that matter? In addition to Logic shipping with audio loops, it also ships with a number of MIDI loops that you could work with. I'll also mention another interesting feature in Logic if you haven't tried it. It's called "Drummer". By moving various sliders and turning knobs, you can influence how complex a pattern it will play. There are various genres to pick from when you start. Same thought, if you find something you like, bounce it to a wav and transfer over to the SD90 and work with it in the Modeling feature.

It just started to rain, and the wife is out shopping with her sister - Maybe I'll mess around a little with this. Sounds like FUN!


Thanks, i have a dowloaded manual somewhere

And yes drummer in logic and mainstage is the coolest drum app to be found..
Might be fun to get it in sync with some style or launchpads...
It will be my main goal to make much more use of the vst collection and mainstage/logic/maschine, in combination with the kronos or modx..(2 setups)
Posted by: Bachus

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 12/15/18 09:52 AM

I did some manual diving
And i found this ideo, you really need to see his Kurt



Its itallian, but shows exactly what we just discussed.
Posted by: IMMusic_Curt

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 12/15/18 10:47 AM

Excellent Find! I'm going to give it a try. That looks like it will do the trick.
Posted by: IMMusic_Curt

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 12/15/18 12:19 PM

Hmm - Not quite working. Getting a ton of white noise and faintly hear the drums in the background. Going to give it another shot in the morning.
Posted by: volovicg

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 10/11/19 09:03 PM

Now I am all confused. AJ - you sure that is not a typo.... I have it it the other way around. Live drums is the real drummer and audio drums is the wave table? Please clarify if I am not correct ? Thanks
Posted by: abacus

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 10/12/19 01:36 AM

Originally Posted By volovicg
Now I am all confused. AJ - you sure that is not a typo.... I have it it the other way around. Live drums is the real drummer and audio drums is the wave table? Please clarify if I am not correct ? Thanks


Wavetable is a synthesis format https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavetable_synthesis
Posted by: volovicg

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 10/12/19 04:30 AM

Maybe I used the term incorrectly as I thought a wav table could be synthesized or sampled. IT is my understanding audio drums have a sampled wave file for each note - ie C is kick, c# is Hihat , d is snare etc . And these files are individually sampled. Where live drums are sampled wave of the entire kit and hence you have a wave for arranger A , another for arranger B etc. is this incorrect and is my understanding of audio drums is wrong can some clear it up for me ?
Thanks
Posted by: abacus

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 10/12/19 05:21 AM

Individual drum sounds are usually sampled and assigned to Midi notes and can be played on a keyboard, drum pad, computer screen etc.
Audio Drum loops are a recording of a real drummer playing a real drum kit, with each variation etc. having its own dedicated loop, however software is available that can split the audio drum loop into its component parts allowing it to be assigned like a normal Midi Drum Sample. (A common format where this is done for you are REX files which contain the full loop and the data to access each part of the loop https://fileinfo.com/extension/rex)
Hope this helps
Posted by: Ketron_AJ

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 10/22/19 10:19 AM

Live Drums/Grooves and Live Audio Drums are created the same way ... a drummer playing an actual drum set. Differece is ... Live Audio Drums are not tuched once created - they are simply streamed as audio (*.wav) when used so styles with LIVE means 18 audio wave drums are assigned to each of the 18 arranger parts (Intro1, Intro2, Arranger A, B C ... etc).
This method gives you the BEST LIVE FEELING AS YOUR DRUMMER created it ... but also offers the LEAST CONTROL/EDITING capability as you are dealing with exclusive wave/audio files.

For Live Drums/Grooves, the recorded data is further treated/scliced into sections so that they (the sections) are triggered via MIDI. This type of kit allows for some kind of CONTROL and re-arrangement without loosing too much LIVE FEEL as you are dealing with wave files but slices/segments which individually can be controlled to some extent.

MIDI drums (as used by most other arrangers) are created as thus:- Drummer sits on a drum kit, sound guy says play KICK drum, he plays the kick and that is recored as "KICK.wav", next they say play the snare soft, drummer plays snare and it is recorded as "SNARE-soft.wave", other variation of the snare recorded as "SNARE-med.wave" and "SNARE-hard.wav" ... etc and drummer goes through entire drum set, and repeats this for different drum kits (or in the case of TECHNO, DANCE ... etc, samples are purchased or created in the studio). Now all these samples are put together under various drum sets and stored in the ROM/Wave table of each instrument (KETRON, YAMAHA, ROLAND) ... etc and the samples are 'triggered/recalled' by the style or Midifile or sequencer ... etc as needed. Because these are individual samples, you have more control over volume, reverb.. etc of each INDIVIDUAL notes, more flexibility to create your own drum tracks by triggering as needed ... etc but you LOOSE the LIVE FEEL of the drummer.

Hope this better explains it.

Thanks,
Posted by: Dreamkeeper

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 10/25/19 04:33 AM

Originally Posted By Ketron_AJ
... the BEST LIVE FEELING AS YOUR DRUMMER created it ... but also offers the LEAST CONTROL/EDITING capability as you are dealing with exclusive wave/audio files.



... and if one want to run other device in midi sync with Ketron SD, it is only possible with Audiodrums and Grooves, but not by the styles with the Live Drums! Even if you set tempo near at the original Live Drums tempo im style - there is no synchronization.
Posted by: volovicg

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 10/30/19 08:56 PM

For audio drums - what kind of control do you have?
When you say midi triggered - please explain - ie c# is a hat wav D is a snare wave etc or do you mean something’s else .
If I pick a factory sound with audio drums - can I revert to midi drums ? What if no midi drums were recorded underneath ?

I want to be able to control the volumes the individual drum parts - snare hihat kick etc - can that be done or can I only select other audio drums kits
Posted by: Ketron_AJ

Re: Live Drums vs Audio Drums - 11/22/19 09:42 PM

Originally Posted By volovicg
For audio drums - what kind of control do you have?
When you say midi triggered - please explain - ie c# is a hat wav D is a snare wave etc or do you mean something’s else .
If I pick a factory sound with audio drums - can I revert to midi drums ? What if no midi drums were recorded underneath ?

I want to be able to control the volumes the individual drum parts - snare hihat kick etc - can that be done or can I only select other audio drums kits


For Audio Drums/Live Audio Drums, you have just EQ as you are working with a wave file. If you say want to boost the snare, you would have to use the EQ and boost the frequency range where the snare is most present.

Midi triggered: So when the audio is sliced into sections, you will have say a short section/part with KICK and a little high hat or snare and a litle snare ...etc since the wave file is truncated linearly (in time). Now say the original wave file was 30seconds long and once truncated, each segment is now 2 seconds long, then segment 1 will be triggered by say C#, segment 2 triggered by D, segment 3 triggered by xxxx up unitl segment N triggered by yyyy (where N=the last segment that was sliced from the initial audio). These are all created and managed by KETRON internally.

If you pic a FACTORY STYLE (not sound) with Live Audio Drums, you can only revert to MIDI drums IF Midi drum data was created with that style. So if the style (e.g most of the FACTORY SD9/AUDYA styles with the LIVE icon) was created exclusively with Live Audio Drums and you mute/remove these, the drum track will be empty and you will have only percussion (which is normally added via Midi to complement the Audio Live Drum or Live Drum.

To be able to control volume, reverb, pan ..etc of the individual drum parts, use styles that have ONLY MIDI Drums, then go into DRUM MIXER. If you start with a LIVE style, you won't be able to do this - unless you re-record a new Midi Drum Track for all the 18 style part (intro, ending, arranger A ...D, etc), or you can use LIVE MODELLING and 'import/borrow' Midi Drums from the Drum Library (which will work for Arranger A-D and Fills only).