What are your thoughts about Genesys?

Have you heard it?

Are you planning to get one?

Hey sk880,

We finally got one here in Minneapolis. It can be seen and heard at Bodine's Music. Jeff Bodine can be reached at (800) 535-6424 for anybody in the area that wants to schedule a demo.

I've played with it for about 2 hours one sad Sunday afternoon (Vikings lost again).

I like the new look, I most definitely like the feel of the keys vs. my WK8. They simply feel better when pressing on them. The key itself has more weight due to design and a little more pressure behind them. Not too much, just right in my opinion. The sound vs. my WK8 was a no contest. Genny sounds awesome...Loud, clean, clear, I could keep goin' here but won't...You owe yourself a listen to hear what I mean.

There were things I didn't care for but won't go into that now. To be fair, I need another go-around with Genny. This time, I will be bringing my laptop and recording some stuff off of it, styles, sounds, midi's that came with the board and midi's that I bring and I'll post them on my test web site here at work.


mike

Have you tryed looking at the Solton web page. The new genysis is going out badged up as a solton keyboard as Gem are now supplying them in Italy. te web site is more informative than the Generalmusic site.

Msutliff,

Please keep us updated when you get the chance to do visit Genesys.


I went to Solton page and the demo there is better than General Music.

Quote: What are your thoughts about Genesys?

Not a bad band, but they weren't the same after Phil Colins left.......

....huh!!!

context, my friend, context!!!

Genesys is my favorite part of the bible... :|

But, to be honest... The genesys sounds very nice, but the graphic interface is soo ugly! It's like I am sitting behind a Wk4 for crying out loud. And The WK4 was released in 1996... You get the picture.

When I compare the Genesys to the new Yamaha keyboards with colour display, I say the Genesys on it self is good, but the other manufactureres are better. They offer more for the same price. Or am I wrong?

Well, one thing is good. I can get rid of my WK4, and get me a second hand WK8SE within a year

The sounds of the Genesys didn't impress me too much, and still the Genesys has the 'hanging' tone bug. When you try the instrument and change a lot from sound <> perf <>styles there will be a sound looping, and you only get it out by resetting. Too bad, my Equinox has it, my WK had it I assume it is a GEM thing.

greetings,
Joost

Hey Joost,

I think I know what you are talking about here...You keep jumping around, doing this and that, and all of a sudden a note (or notes) keeps playing and nothing you do stops it until you turn the keyboard off then back on....Right?

If that is what you mean, my WK8 does that too.

Here's a little more 1st impressions....I've been with GEM for sometime now (Bachmann, WX2, WK4, WK8) so I feel pretty comfortable with navigating around all the buttons. I figured for the most part, I would have the Genesys figured out in no time. Bring up single instruments...easy. Style play...easy. Then, I wanted to see how the playing a midi file directly off a floppy worked. Both the salesman and I sat there pressing buttons after buttons and couldn't make it happen. None of the choices made any sense...So I grabbed the manual. Finally figured it out...You have to do this, then this, THEN this. Oh, I get it now. So I wrote it off as a 'first time user inexperienced' kind of thing. Then, I tried to change an instrument on one of the tracks before the midi started to play....Can't do it. The midi has to be loaded into RAM if you plan on making any changes. Bummer cause thats what takes all the time, loading the songs into RAM, whether from a floppy, CD-ROM, or hard drive. I wonder if other keyboards are the same in that respect. Then, I loaded a block of songs that came on the CD that comes with the keyboard. Searched through the songs and picked Smoke on the Water by Deep Purple...Let's hear if they made any changes to the electric guitars. My first impression was, "What the hell is this?" I didn't like what I was hearing. They've added more heavy, distorted, overdrive guitar registers and were using a different one for this song (different when compared to my WK8 which also comes with this particular block of songs). I think my WK8 does a pretty nice job with this song...Here are some samples if anybody is interested:

http://genny.lib.umn.edu/wk8/guitars.htm

Anyway, I didn't care for it but you might, in fact, you might love it and think it's the best guitar sound you've heard a keyboard make...It just didn't work for me. And with all this going down, there is that $4000+ price tag staring me right in the eyes.

I played some other songs, they sounded great, sounds like the drum kits have been upgraded. And with that fantastic Genny sound system on board, it was pretty impressive. So I left with mixed reviews...I liked the looks, I liked the feel, I liked the sounds, I have to re-learn the navigation, loading midi files technically won't be any easier, etc. To me, the Genesys is a very, very refined WK8 and that's good. I'm just not sure if that is what I need or want.

Bottom line is I need to give the Genesys another chance. Play with the styles and new sounds more, learn the buttons better, make some real music.

mike

[This message has been edited by msutliff (edited 01-15-2003).]

sk880.... just kidding !!

msutliff, yes; that hanging tone is what I am talking about. I think it is absurd that it still exists in a 4000$ brand new workstation; my WX2 (I'm on GEM also some time, started with an old WS1d...) had it, WK had it, Equinox has it. How hard can it be?

greetz Joost

the hanging note happened on Sk880 also. But not that often.


Leon, I know.


[This message has been edited by sk880user (edited 01-17-2003).]

I have said this b4 but on a different thread, after using a WX2 with megafloppy for well over 1250 gigs I felt the need for a new keyboard if only for the worry of a breakdown, I like Gem but the Genesis for me was far too heavy and an awkward shape to case, my money went on the WK8 SE in fact two !! one for home one for gigs, I can't help thinking apart form the weight / shape issue there is an amount of recycling of old tech on this, 2 gig is nothing for a HD these days and it still looks like an old 8x3 file system, the sequencer looks the same size as 9yrs ago, not knocking just observing and buying equipment

Kevind I would like to coment on your post
"I like Gem but the Genesis for me was far too heavy and an awkward shape to case"
At the NAMM show this week Generalmusic displayed the new Genesys Pro which is 41 lbs. and has a flat top with a pop up screen. In my opinion, this was a must for this keyboard. I've also been told that on future Genesys keyboards with speakers, the weight will be reduced because of a change in the internal power supply being changed to a lighter one.
"I can't help thinking apart form the weight / shape issue there is an amount of recycling of old tech on this"
Generalmusic chose to keep the best features of the WK series, mainly the sequencer on Genesys. They also kept the original sounds so that the compatability issue would not be an issue and they still added over 300 brand new sounds. They also put mostly new styles with different minor and major intros and endings into Genesys, something the other companies haven't done.
"2 gig is nothing for a HD these days and it still looks like an old 8x3 file system"
I complained originally about only using a 2 GB drive but I was told that because you have a CD/RW drive, you don't need a larger hard drive because you can save everything on a CD/RW.
"the sequencer looks the same size as 9yrs ago, not knocking just observing and buying equipment"
I think the Generalmusic sequencer is the most complete and most professional of all the keyboard companys. I'm glad they left this part alone.
After selling Generalmusic keyboards since 1995 along with Ketron, Yamaha, Roland and others, I just think the Genesys is a very good keyboard and with the new Pro version coming in March I think a lot of potential customers will like the revisions alot.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, california

Yes George and everyone else, Funny here in the UK Gem have never reached the respect they deserve, I found them quite by accident in a local shop and was amazed at what seemed to be a secret firm they still don't have a solid UK distribution and in fact my second purchase went to Eire, my comments were as a buyer and live gigger who has bought a house and sent two kids to Uni on earnigs " and talent !?" made possible by Gem keyboards, They have got some things wrong who dosen't but from your post it looks like they are going partly in the right direction, I do though have a few reservations on things like 2 Gig is fine because you can write, who wants a stack of CD's , and if you can afford can you put in a 40+gig? no because it is still using old tech wich is wrong, but still love these products hence buying two WK 8's which will probably see me into retirement
Kevin

I need to get my act together and go sample a genesys and then write a review.

The navagation is a bit diffrent the the WK/SK series before (thankfully) They really did try to make it a more user friendly instrument. Which in my opinion have succeeded in doing. Editing a midi file on almost any instrument isn't easy, and some it's impossible. Generalmusic took the approach that most people that just want to play a quick song, are not going to want to edit the song. With this, you just press the select button, choice the song and press play... instantly they song is playing. If you want to change the instruments and mess around with the seaquence, you can just hit the mixer button, and select the track you want to change, you are now changing the insruments. Remember you need to be in single sound mode to change instruments.

Another point about the display, Color screens or touch screens add more cost to the bottom line of the instrument. The display works, and makes it easy to get around on the instrument with easy.

If you don't like a sound, add one you do like, Illio, or Spectrosonics have some incredible sounds you can load into the instrument. The best part about it, is that the whole instrument works on Flash Ram, so when you load the sound in the instrument, you will not have to re-load it, just because you turned off the instrument... the genesys is capible of loading Kurzweil, AIFF, AKAI, WAV samples, all right from the built in floppy or CD ROM, even better, you can store samples that you don't use all the time, onto the hard drive.

Yeah, you are right. But I have to conclude that other manifacturers succeed in producing a workstation for the same price as a Genesys, with colour / touchscreen. And I don't believe that GEM eg has very expensive buttons or something.


I presume that you mix two different functions. On one hand you have battery backed RAM, which stores the samples you load into it. The WK4 had it also; it is a great function, I use the 8MB backed in my Equinox for the PRO piano samples; but it is far from new. On the other hand you have Flash memory, which allows you to load a new version of the OS. For example, the last update for the Equinox, which is still the GEM synthesizer flagship dates 11/10/2000 (> 2 years ago). Flame intended GEM!!!!!!! The WK8 also has the function which allows GEM updates to modify/add styles and sounds in the Flash part.

So, the user can only load samples in the RAM part; GEM also has acces to the Flash memory. These are two different things.

Oh, one more thing about the MIDI file loading thing. You are right about the avarage user not editing a MIDI file alot. But is editing the MIDI file in the sequencer much harder than in the WKx? Hope not.

Who in this group wants to buy the thing? I hear alot of critics, and no really enthousiastic reactions. Why not?

HardDisk recording, CDRW, Vocal Processor, Video outputs, Best sounding speaker system, high quality keybed, 200+ preloaded songs with lyrics, MP3 player. These all cost money, as well as the R&D cost that go into the instrument.


There is no RAM in the Genesys. Everything is flash.


Honestly, I have never tried to edit a midi file using the WK/SK series instrument. I have on the genesys, is it is very stright forward (for an onboard seaquencer, it is the easiest to use out of every instrument I have worked with)


I am as puzzled as you are. I know there are a lot of people that own genesys instruments, and love them. I personal love the instrument. My biggest complaint about the instrument is it's weight, which is being worked on. I think once the genesys PRO61 starts shipping you will hear more people in this forum talking about it. If you sit down with the instrument for sometime, and read the owners manual that was written in great detail and easy to understand (Thanks Chris!) you will be amazed at the power, and ease of use. This instrument is not a pretty WK or SK, sure, they took the parts of those instruments people loved, such as the seaquencer, but this is a new instrument, with expandiblity that no one knows about.

Quote

This instrument is not a pretty WK or SK, sure, they took the parts of those instruments people loved, such as the seaquencer, but this is a new instrument, with expandiblity that no one knows about

Perhaps someone should tell us abut this then and convince us!!!!

I have a WK8 and have played Genysis. Firstly it has the WK8 gubbins in it. This i like. The rest is new sounds and some new styles.

I dont need a CD Writer - have this on a PC most likely better quality as well.

I can load sampled sounds into wk8 so all i need is the new sounds on the genysis.......... i wonder if i search the software site of Gem if i would find them and save myself some dosh


Dazza

PaulD,

Thanx for clearing out that memory thing. Interesting that the G only has Flash...

I am wondering: If GEM would make a G-lite version... no hard-disk recording, no vocal proc, no CD-RW, no speakers, no video output, no mp3 playback... Just the new keyboard, new sounds, new styles, new lay-out; all the other things you mentioned in a 66/76 key version; I think it would sell better. I say WK6<>WK8; the same principle

Who would agree? I would go for it for a lower price (hey, I'm still student )

Greetings,
Joost

Hello everybody,

Wow, we're finally getting some dialog going in the GEM forum....I'm excited!

Okay, let's talk midi editing (or at least what I like to do). For you WK8 owners out there (and WK4, SK880, etc) where are the best sounding instruments, what banks?

Depends...Right? Depends what we are talking about. Piano...probably Piano1 which is in midi bank0 or Generalmusic GMX Bank1 (I'll start calling it bank1 from here on out). Piano2 is a little brighter, that works sometimes, and I also like PianoMk1 found on bank2. Okay, how about bass? For me, FingerdBs2 and 3 found on banks 6 and 7 respectively sound the best. I also use AcoustcBs4 found in bank4 a lot too. Slap and Synth are fine up on bank1. Okay, guitars...The overdrive guitar found in bank1 is okay but doesn't work that well in newer songs (my opinion of course). Yet the LeadDist3 found in bank6 is awesome. I get a midi file with overdrive guitars selected, 8 times out of 10 I will change up to LeadDist3 and get some great results. How about drum kits? DK_Std_1 is okay but DK_Std_1WX and DK_Std_10 sound crisper, snappier, whatever you want to call it yet still gives the same timbre as DK_Std_1. I've been substituting DK_Rock lately with some real interesting results, a different sounding kit but can be a lot of fun with certain songs.

So I think you get my point here. Take a midi file but jazz it up a bit by using the better sounding instruments your keyboard has to offer. I've never really changed the songs that came with the keyboard, the GEM folks definitely did there homework there. But I've got 500+ good midi files from Tune1000 that just use the standard general midi banks. I gotta tell ya, some of these songs are a night and day difference between just leaving them alone and swapping out the general midi registers for different ones that I think sound better.

So when I heard that the latest keyboards play midi files right off the disk, you don't have to load them into RAM, I was excited. What I was hoping for was to select the file, scan down the instruments chosen, change what I want, hit the "Store Procedure" button and off I go. That IS what I do if I load it into RAM. But that doesn't happen if I play it right off the disk. Sure I could change the instruments after the song starts but that can get a bit cumbersome especially if I'm changing a lot of stuff.

Oh well, no biggy, I can live with it, I have so far. For the stuff I use a lot, I use Calkwalk to change the settings then save it to disk...That's probably the better way to go anyway. It would be nice if GEM would release a Genesys instrument definition file for Calkwalk soon (hint). All of this would be a moot point.

mike

So basically, Genesys does not have RAM and because it does not have RAM, actual editing of files is more difficult, in fact, most likely there is no such thing as instant editing?

Is that the point?

Or what I am missing?

Oh no, Genesys has got RAM. I was trying to find the actual spec but couldn't...Maybe one of the other guys knows.

Now I don't know for sure so you'll have to take this with a grain of salt. There's a difference between loading a song then playing it and playing it directly off of disk. When you play a midi directly off of disk, you don't get a chance to change (and make stick) any of the midi events before the song starts. The events I'm talking about would be which instrument to use on which track.

But when you load the song into RAM, then make a register change, then do a 'Store Procedure' (or save), that change superceeds any initial "Patch Change" midi event and doesn't change it unless it receives another Patch Change event somewhere during the course of playing the song. Doesn't change the actual file, just makes the changes in RAM. What I'm not sure of is whether the original instrument choice is found in the sysex file or is it in a header in the midi file or what.(?)

So what I was hoping for was the ability to let my instrument changes superceed any midi event changes before the song starts regardless of whether it was coming from RAM or directly off a disk. I'm not asking it to change notes, effects, timing, lyrics, etc...Just the initial choice of instruments used.

And like I said, it's not that big of a deal. If they can't do it, then they can't do it. I'll get by.

Maybe I'm just asking for too much.

I remember somebody saying that Ketron likes to put their best sounding instruments in bank 1 and 2. Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. Of course, then you've got the ol' what's sounds good to me might not to you.

mike

but can you load a song into RAM?

You can do all your editing, make the instrument your own. The diffrence is it stays like that, even when you power down, Everything stays. It is a whole new approach to a keyboard. The genesys doesn't have ROM, Those sound installed at the factory, those styles, even those demos, are all in that flash. A sample that you load, actually becomes part of the instrument.

Let me clear this up, the instrument doesn't have volatile battery backed RAM, nor does the instrument have ROM which most manufactures put their sounds and styles. This instrument can completely change from software update to software update. The sounds and styles are not stored permanently on a chip. Every function is stored on the instrument via Flash RAM. In theory all the sounds and styles can be removed and your own personal sounds and styles can be put in there place. The genesys has 8 Megs of Flash free that you can load songs, styles, samples, MP3, etc. In theory, if you want more room for your own stuff, get rid of the things you aren't going to use on the instrument to free up some flash ram.

This is a completely new way of looking at an instrument, and can confuse people that are use too the old battery backed RAM and familiar with having the manufactures sounds and styles permanently embedded on the chip.


[This message has been edited by PaulD (edited 01-30-2003).]

[This message has been edited by PaulD (edited 01-30-2003).]

Good morning,

First off, I want to thank PaulD for all the very helpful input. It's nice to have somebody like that on board. Next, I want to say that I'm no expert, not even close. Just an ol' accordion player that now plays GEM keyboards as a hobby and for relaxation. Most of my quotes come from reading the manual and/or practical experience. And I'm about to quote the manual again....I'M NOT TRYING TO GO AGAINST WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!!!

(In case anybody wants to read the same manual I'm quoting)

http://gem.generalmusic.com/en/products/genesys/genesys.html

Page 2 of the Genesys_Working.pdf:

The Genesys contains an internal re-chargeable battery which is used to retain the contents of its memory while the unit is switched off. If the unit is left switched off for more than about 3 days, the battery will discharge completely and the contents of the memory will be lost.

Page 45:

The SONG PLAYER can play a song in any of these formats from any available device, Floppy Disk, Hard Disk, CD, SCSI device or from the instrument's internal memory, (which is called RAM in the SONG PLAYER and DISK menus).

This is the RAM that I was talking about and so I guess that answers SK880's question...Yes, you can load songs into the keyboard's RAM.

Page 54:

Changing the sound in any track is simple. First, make sure the song is playing and then select SINGLE mode in the PRESET FAMILIES section.

MAKE SURE THE SONG IS PLAYING...That's my whole point. If you are going to play directly from disk, you can't make any edits before the song starts. And the only edit I'd be interested in making before the song starts is the instrument selection. Yet if you load the song into RAM first, then select SINGLE mode and change the instruments, then STORE the procedure, the changes stick when you start the song. And how long does it take to load a song into RAM from a floppy, or hard drive, or CD-ROM?...The same amount of time it takes my WK8 now....A while! So playing directly from floppy didn't turn out to be the revelation I had hoped for. Unless of course, all my midis are redone in Calkwalk selecting the correct instruments to begin with...Then direct play off of floppies would be great. That's a lot of work on my part. I'd better get busy.

And this nit-pickin' on one certain topic doesn't mean I don't like the keyboard. I'd love to have a new Genesys sitting on my keyboard stand right now....I just can't afford it. Definitely looking forward to the compact model.

mike

Thanks. So it does and must have RAM otherwise, it will not be able to run the operating system. Furthermore, the RAM is battery-backed (which is good), for 3 days only (which is not that good). Moreover, you can load songs into RAM (which is excellent).

How much RAM total?

so the Genesys or and it's newer light weight brothers can read from SCSI ? is this still only from a couple of specific odball devices like SCSI zips and Jazz?, not generic large SCSI HD's. I have just spent many nights trying to back up the supplied Hd contents of WK8 se first to Zip then to CDR with computer of course, after a lot of faffing I discovered I had to load all the samples into ram then resave B4 the ZIP would multicopy the HD contents, Still pleased with my WK8's though but ccould be easier with a few tips on what many people must still find over and over with no help

Honestly, I appreciate you calling me on this, as I have never gave it any thought as to why there was a reload after 3-4 days of being unplugged. I always chalked it us to memory corruption as I am on the road with this instrument all the time, and I have one of the first genesys shipped into the country.

As soon as I read your posting, it was eye opening. I quickly did some research and fired off an email to Chris Anthony (one of the members of the team that designed and programmed the genesys). Chris was gracious, he saw that I have become active in the forum, and typed up a response. Here is what he said:

"The memory used in the Genesys is not actually Intel FLASH although this has been much used as an analogy to explain it's advantages to people. The proliferation of "flashable" memory devices means that most people can grasp the benefits of such a system by simply hearing this one word.

All memory in the instrument is technically contigious; that is - there is no division between ROM and RAM and everything from the o.s to the sounds and styles is erasable and updateable. For management purposes, we designated a certain area as "RAM" which simply describes the area of this memory which can be re-written by the user. The remainder of memory is software-locked. This is the section which contains the o.s and the "resources" (sounds, styles, music library etc.). This area can be re-written only by loading new factory-created resources from a CD or other device.

The memory itself, does require battery backup during power-down and this is the whole reason for the existence of standby mode as explained in the manual.

Reagding the loading and editing of midi files, the system offers all the advantages as the SK/WK line (load a song, change all sounds/volumes etc. and then save all your changes by pressing one button), with the added advantage of a direct from disk/cd/hd/scsi player plus a new GM remap feature which instantly selects the best alternatives to the standard GM voices, (including real sounds, fazioli piano etc.) when playing any midifile.

Chris"

I hope this helps in understanding the genesys. I personaly love this instrument, and not because I work for Generalmusic. There is no arranger instrument that has the power of genesys, nor have a very intuitive user interface. Yes, it doesn't look as high tech as the other intruments out there, but what is more important, looking high tech, or being high tech. Yes, the instrument is heavier than most everything out there, but nothing sounds as good (Speaker system, and samples) Nor has as much stuff onboard, I.E. CDRW, Video Outputs, Hard disk recorder, vocal processor, 32 midi channels, etc.

Don't get me started about updates, and upgrades..... How long does it take to update your instrument??? Can you update/change the built it sounds??? What model will be replacing this instrument next year???



[This message has been edited by PaulD (edited 02-01-2003).]

Well the Genyisis is looking better after Paul D´s response from Chris. (a very good freind of mine). However everything i have read here makes it out to be the latest in technology. Has Paul ever seen the Ketron SD1 - it has the same rewritable internals. ummmmmmmmgh i wonder how much new technology is here or re packaged.

However i do like the product it sounds good, the syles are good. the gadgets for me are niether here nor there. But my overall impression on playing it for a day was i would only be getting 25% more than my WK 8 has. That 25% was worth having but then it comes down to price aaaaaaaaaaggggggggggh another storie.

thank you Paul anyway - how long have you been with Gem and what is your role.

darren

Darren,

I am the DSM for the West Coast of the USA. I have only been with GEM for a little over a year. I am familiar with Ketron SD1, and it nice instrument. I feel most manufactures make good instruments. What sets the genesys apart from other instruments is how it put the technology together to make it a very useable instrument. Just putting a bunch of technology in a box and adding keys, doesn't make a musical instrument. I personally like the GEM products and the direction they are going over any of the other brands. Does that mean GEM products are the only thing out there, and no one else competes with them, of course not, just my opinion. My opinion and $1.35 will get me a cup of coffee.

Darren,
Want to check out technology, check out the Promega 3!

Nothing impressive to look at, but once you play it..... It's truly a piano.

Good morning everybody,

Hope everybody had a nice weekend!

Thanks to Paul and Chris for the valuable input. As for the quote above, does anybody know how much 'User RAM' as been allocated?




Wow, this sounds like a great feature! I most definitely will be checking this out and reporting back. I just did a quick scan of the two manuals from GEM's site (search for GM remap) and found nothing. Does anybody know how to invoke this feature?




It does and again I thank the both of you.

mike

It works via the "GeneralMidi" function on the MIDI/General Set page. Set this to "GM" and you'll notice that the remap happens automatically when midi files are played either directly (for a disk) or indirectly (from a computer via a midi cable). If you turn this feature off, the instrument will revert to selecting the older (WK/SK) soundset.