What a waste of money!

Over the years I've spent a fair few bob on music gear. Most of my purchases have been made after lots of research and generally speaking I've been left happy with what I've bought.

To date my worst ever purchase was a Les Paul Classic which cost a whopping £1,200 (over $1600!)- although it looked great, the frets buzzed and it didn't sound as good as my friend's guitar which was about one sixth of the price.

BUT the was in a past life. Since getting into synths I have to tell you, the biggest waste of money I feel I ever spent, was on an expensive pro audio sound card. I'll not give the name cos I'm not out to have a go at any particular company or card.

The point is... I was getting along quite happily with my mega cheap SB value card and I was making some good sounds with it. Since getting this new card, the recording process has become much more complicated PLUS I've been forced into buying expensive additional extras that I didn't need with my cheaper soundcard (eg- a mixer with a built in pre amp). Not only that, but I now need to buy monitors cos the (large and pefectly functional) speakers I've been using happily for years are no longer any good with the new card (cos when I plug the speaker jack into the output of my new card, the sound only comes out of one speaker instead of two, so I need to suddenly invest in a stereo speaker system with 2 jacks instead of one. If all of this wasn't enough, my hard drive has became cluttered loads of unwanted wav files since getting the new card (the reasons are slightly difficult to explain, but it centres around the fact that my new card can't play Cubase AND record from Sound Forge at the same time, whereas my old (cheap) card could. This means that when I record I have to do it from Cubase only, and as you know, in Cubase every single take you do is saved whether you like it or not)

FINALLY, to top it all off... I can't even notice any great difference in sound quality with the two cards. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure statically my expensive card is much better in terms of bit rate and all that stuff, but when it comes to listening to a song I've made on a CD player... there's not any noticable difference at all! Please don't slag my ears- I know they work fine.

Incidentally, when I was burning songs on my old card, nobody EVER complained about the sound quality.

Anyway, that's it. I'm through. Sorry for dragging on with this, but I just had to get it off my chest.

PS- Elvis and the Beatles never used fancy sound cards, and nobody seems to be complaining about that, do they?

Poor you.

-tek

Sounds like you have too much money and not enough of a clue as to what you're doing.

ouch.....Low Blow Cloakboy!!
...but funny....

Here's my 2 cents worth...............

I have always held the the opinion that the average person who has ever listened to any of my "songs" is NOT a professional audiophile. The equipment they are listening to these songs with is NOT state of the art either. I have never found it cost effective to have mega dollar monitor speakers, soundcards, and special equipment to make good tunes. I wouldn't enjoy my modest MIDI studio any more with these high dollar toys...........I would probably just get frustrated, like you, getting all this stuff to work right. Just because one has a million dollar setup doesn't mean their music is any better. "You can't buy real musical genius!"

Well said Rattley

So, Eq, what exactly is stopping you from going back? Also, you bought a complete mixer because you need a mic pre-amp? Heheh.

You could sell your stuff and cut your losses ..and what Cloakboy said.

-tek

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tekminus:
[B]So, Eq, what exactly is stopping you from going back? Also, you bought a complete mixer because you need a mic pre-amp? Heheh.

You could sell your stuff and cut your losses ..and what Cloakboy said.


I did lots of research and a very honest and clued up guy from the local music shop revealed to me that I could buy a brand new 10 track mixer for around the same price as a mic pre-amp. It does everything a pre amp does and more.

Right now I'm chopping and changing between the two cards, but selling is out of the question.

You can get a mic preamp for between $50 and $100. Unless you got the mixing board for that price range, you were taken for a ride.

I got the mixing board for £80. You can indeed get cheap pre amps, but according to all sources, there is a noticable difference between a cheapo pre amp and a non cheapo. The pre amps that I was thinking of getting were made by companies like midiman and if you check out the prices you'll find that they're more or less the same price as my Beringer mixer was.

Anyway, who cares? I really just started this topic off to register an opinion about how I feel I've been misled by mass hype into buying something that I really didn't need- an expensive pro audio sound card.

I'm gonna let this topic die off now, as I don't really have much more to offer, (except maybe a few wranglings about the price of pre amps, which doesn't really interest me right now).

I've said my main point that I wanted to get across, and I'm quite happy for this thread to die out and reside in the archives for a while.

If people wanna take on board what I've said before buying an expensive sound card, then great. If not, then who caresss? - not me.

Thanks for the contributions!

Just don't leave thinking a Soundblaster Value has the same latency capabilities of a higher end dsp card. Latency is one of the most common reasons to get a semi-pro card. Anyone who thinks of buying a decent card should demand atleast one left and one right output. You don't buy a $250-$1000 card with a single stereo mini-plug.

Don't let people think you can get better recording results with a SB card, just because you lack the knowledge. This forum is or used to be full of latency questions. Alot of the times people were using gaming soundcards.

Years ago I used to hook up two BOSS MA-12 powered speakers to my SB with the help of a cable-adapter. One stereo out to two line inputs.


-tek

I realize that this is long before the fact, but I find it funny that you use this line of reasoning on preamps after your rant about soundcards.

Look guys, I'm very flattered that you all think this topic that I started is amazing, but there comes a point when you've got to blow the whistle and let go.

Tek- I know all about latency- when I was at uni raised my rent money by teaching people Cubase. If I never knew about latency I would've been found out years ago. Since leaving Uni I now earn a living making up jingles for companies using synths and computers. It's hardly world fame, but at least it involves doing something I feel passionate about- making music. For the past 4 years I've averaged at 8-14 hours per day working with synths (usually soft synths at that). I appologise for this slightly childish macho tone, but I'm getting a bit pissed off at people assuming that I know nothing, just because I don't think pro audio cards are worth the hype.

As far as latency goes... I can live with it, cos I have no intentions of dragging my computer on stage and playing a soft synth in a live situation. Well, not at this point in time anyway.

Tek- literally millions of dollars have been spent getting people like you to think and respond the way you have. The power of advertising and hype never ceases to amaze me!

I mean, just think about it!- a guy comes on the forum saying that in his opinion he doesn't think expensive sound cards are worth the hype and all of a sudden you and your hen-house cronies start acting like a bunch of poncy hairdressers and talking to me as if I must be either clueless or crazy.

It sickens me to scroll through this thread and see responses like,

"Sounds like you have too much money and not enough of a clue as to what you're doing."

followed by some shitkicking, lowlife sheep saying,

"ouch.....Low Blow Cloakboy!!
...but funny...."

Gimme a break!

tek, I think we hurt his feelings.

Those millions of dollars on advertising must've gone to waste on me because I'm using an Akai DPS12.

-tek

Isn't it great how we can all laugh amongst ourselves like this?

Anyone else reading this thread would probably think we were serious!

Equalizer I know you want this to lay down and die but consider this.You have had lots of experience right ?? so you're recording process or the method you use must be tried and tested .those of us that came from the nasty old 4track cassette days (or all tape for that matter) all had to deal with a variing amount of tape hiss and background noise which we fought with a hotter signal.
I went from a sb16 (ISA to !!)to a Lexicon Card (incidently I did 3 Radio ads on the SB16)and the main thing I've noticed is how Lazy you can be with your recording process .the noise floor is so low (-98db) you dont need so much signal ,heck if I cant be stuffed getting out the desk I just record my bass guitar straight into the Audiocard and normalise the file.Obviously there was also a huge sound quality improvement as well ,but perhaps in your case the sound quality was more subtle.Sorry again to dredge this up again,and no one has too much money !!

Equalizer,

I read your post and I hope you get better results in the future.

I believe it is very important that you list the equipment that you are using.

What mixer? What soundcard? What mic? and what cubase version? What monitors?

Without listing all of this, it is very hard to truly evaluate your situation.

You may need simply an upgrade for one device only. or other constructive change in your setup. Please let me know. Thanks.

If you've ever had to record a guitar lead over some MIDI tracks using an SB16 - you definitely understand the term latency.

IMHO - there's a lot to be said for some of the higher end sound cards, soft synths, DXi, Recycle, samples and other computer based music products on the market. However.... one has to evaluate ones needs and follow the 80/20 rule.. you can get 80% of the results for 20% of the cost !!!

And I don't recall if it was Tekminus or Equlaizer that said it, but 99.99998% of the time I have taken something I have done [studio or live] and asked for a sound quality opinion from someone other than a sound engineer or other audiophile - they simply can't tell the difference between average, good or great !! They are conditioned to look for the hook. Other than something mastered to cassette tape using a cheap portable, battery operated device, they simply can't tell.....

Instrument definition, separation, phasing, effects and so on, generaly get lost on the average listener....

My point being that if you are happy with it and your sound guy/mentor is happy with it - there's little point in trying for that extra 20%....... no one other than you will be able to tell the difference !!

That's not to say one shouldn't strive for perfection, but at some point - be that based on budget, temperament or boredom - enuf is enuf.

Marketing folks make a living out of making hte perfect demo and making you go out and but that upgrade. It works.. just ask Microsoft !!!

Regards,
Steve

Never mix MIDI and audio in the first place. No matter what card. Either do things audio only or MIDI only.

-tek

Also, Microsoft doesn't sell through marketing, they do it through monopoly.

tekminus,
sorry wasn't trying to open the MS can-o-worms, it was the first thing that came to mind... poor choice as you are right on the money re:monopoly...

Steve

Hi TIME FOR A COMMERCIAL BREAK...Have a napkin with those fish & chips...wups, better hurry or the grease that's running down your arm will drip off your elbow, yeah? so you say you didn't even feel it? OK, that's better now...

Dammit guys*, -tek's right again. Gotta give credit where credit is due. Mixing realtime live, aiff, wav, raw, or whatever audio signal with MIDI sound is N.G.(period!).

Really the best way to work a controlled sequence into a piece is to take the part and FIRST CREATE AN AUDIO FILE WITH IT BEFORE working it into your material. Even all the grease of XG plus the fish & chips will not allow a truly smooth and natural blending of the two. MIDI sound is not final show sound, however it is used more and more at intermissions for instance... a commercial break. People are more concerned about the napkins for the grease running down their arm rather than the backround loop that is playing while the curtain is closed. The only time I believe a MIDI file is a finished product is if that is the end format that is desired. eg. a PC game like Kingpin or the likeness of which uses MIDI for sound. mid files are an alternative to wav files yet they come with their own bucket of problems too!

*& ladies when applicable
COMMENT TO ORIGINAL POSTING: Push the reset button, throw everything away and begin with a Fisher Price Close & Play, do not allow pet to chew on line cord.

Ahh man

all those years of spending $$$ on drugs


was that a waste?

No, but using them yourself, instead of selling with a nice profit margin was a waste

Next time eh?

-tek

PS. I've got a massive undertaking tonight. You see, I got me a laptop yesterday and today I went for wireless LAN shopping. There's boxes everywhere and I'm running out of mains.
BAH!

tek is right selling drugs is where its at

Laptop -tek? cool. What did you pick up? Sony? Hey do you still have the SH-5? (shh, I know not too loud.) I still have my 7 but have not used it much lately. So whadya get? For non-musical (i figure since you have X-trancieve LAN) or maybe to push MIDI sigs. as well?

Pete . . . er i mean MORPH!

It's an IBM R32. I got it through a rental deal at work. I'm bothered by the low rpm on the HD (high seek times etc too), but I quess I won't do any HD-recording on it. I'll get an audio interface as soon as I can afford it, since I will re-organize my whole studio around this now, and leave the old AMD for other tasks. I also got the T750 17" TFT screen and port replicator with a travel mouse and keyboard. The T750 is awesome

edit: Yeah I still have the SH-5 and use it alot. I often run things through it. If you let the LFOs trigger the envelopes, you can get some awesome distortion out of it.

-tek



[This message has been edited by tekminus (edited 10-09-2002).]

It's just as well when it comes to HDD recording. I can't tell you how many UDMA drives I've toasted. On the other hand IBM make excellent drives if not the best. I use a big tube monitor and it gets to me after a while

MORPH!

Ehhh... IBM actually has the highest failure rate, which is thanks to the 75GXP Deskstar series (nicknamed "DeathStar")... up around 30% failure rate. Western Digital and Maxtor are about tied at around 15%, and Seagate is slightly lower. However, some people have had Seagate drives literally catch on fire.

Each hard drive manufacture has it's ups and downs, really. The one on top this year might be on the bottom last year.

Aside from that, IBM's 120GXP Deskstar series was heavily marketed as a perfect hard drive for webservers. Within a week of its release, IBM sent out a press release saying it's best not to leave the 120GXP series on for more than 8 hours at a time. I remember reading somewhere that IBM is going to quit making hard drives soon.

heh man I'd like to see a flaming hard drive ( not my own of course ).. I caught something about seagate being behind WD and Maxtor for HDD recording because of a smaller writeback buffer than their competitors..

PS I heard that.. dont pinch my nads.
PPS dont comment on my ps. thankyou.

[This message has been edited by Jiddu (edited 10-17-2002).]

Yes, Seagate drives are slower than equivalent Maxtor and WD drives, that is to say if Maxtor's and WD's 7200RPM drives have an 8.4ms read/write time, Seagate's 7200RPM drives have an 8.9ms read/write time. However, they have a reputation for being quieter and more reliable.

At the time I bought my hard drives, first an IBM 60GXP (came out after the 75GXP, a bit more reliable, but still known to crash and burn *not literally burn*) then my Seagate Barracuda IV, they were both considered "the best" by techies at the time. Within 2 months of buying the IBM drives, all the nerds were complaining about how unreliable they were, though statistically they weren't as bad as the 75GXP series. Within 2 months of buying the Barracuda IV, WD's Special Edition series came out and those seem to be the cat's jammies lately.

So in other words, **** it. Let the tech nerds argue over which computer peripherals are best. I spent a few months following "the buzz" and all it got me was a sub-par mobo and an IBM drive that may crash on me one day. *knocks on wood*

But the reason I posted was to say avoid IBM hard drives. They once were the best, but lately (past two years) things have gotten sketchy.

I have a 60GXP. How do you back up 14GB of movies in a convenient way? I've had the drive for a year in november, I quess it's all downhill from now on..

-tek

edit: no typo here, YUO LIAIR!!S



[This message has been edited by tekminus (edited 10-18-2002).]

Tek,

if your 60GXP drive starts making a scraping sound, get a new one, otherwise I wouldn't worry about it.

If it does die on you, take it out and put it in a freezer. This is a trick I picked up by reading around. Once you get a new drive, take it out of the freezer, pop it in and back up everything. It supposedly works only once.

I've had mine for over a year now and it seems fine, but sometimes odd things do happen with it.

i have an IBM deskstar 60gxp and its failed twice. luckily its my OS drive and not the audio/midi file drive. also lucky for me i have a backup of the drive on CD after everything was installed.

eeeek all my HD's are seagate 7200 rpm barracudas (ata100 IDE) 2x20s and a 40 (Gb) one of the 20s just came up with bad sectors during a routine defrag it was only 2 years old so I checked the serial on the website and they confirmed it was still under its 3yr international warranty (I bought it whilst on holiday in singapore)I sent it away and got a new one Loverly ! (and I managed to get all the data of too (except a 1 minute guitar track that I hated any way).My 2cents which is sooooo of topic now .