Well, we might as well admit it.

Posted by: Chris Attison

Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/13/02 05:09 PM

Electronic music is not as popular as it was 2 years ago. However, the thing that pisses me off is that, good electronic music never saw the light even when it was hip for that very short period. To the general public, techno and electronic music is Moby, FatBoy Slim and the Prodigy.
Not to take anything away from these guys, but they certainly were not the cream of the crop.

Right now this "lobotomy" rock/rap music is dominating the market, in connection with a piss poor attempt to revive punk and grunge. There is no way anyone can tell me that the music on your radio is at all innovative or at least acceptable. And I see that it is not only mid to late 20 something losers like me, but also the teenagers that the record companies target this crap toward, also hate it.

So why is it being pushed if so many hate it? How is it still selling millions? I believe that despite what people truly think about the poor quality of music, they will still buy it anyways either to keep up with the Jones' sortaspeak or simply out of consumer boredom. The bigwigs that control these record companies are fully aware of this and market it accordingly.

Will electronic music make a come back? Most likely. In fact, i give it 2 to 4 years. But for now, music sucks more than ever. yeah I had to bitch and moan about this, so sue me.

[This message has been edited by Chris Attison (edited 08-13-2002).]
Posted by: MRT1212

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/14/02 12:15 AM

well as a teenager who is being targeted i have to agree...so much of music today is style over substance and its really making me apathetic towards music listening.

i long for an era like 1991-1996 again for rock music, when there was room for people with different sounds and not either nu metal or punk revival blandness. its really a shame i was too young to truly enjoy that era until it was 98.

as for electronic music, i hated it when fatboy slim and prodigy were being held up so high as electronic music gods...i wanted people to hear aphex twin, squarepusher, orb, orbital, people that mean something for electronic music and not bland sampled repetitive shit...
Posted by: Chris Attison

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/14/02 12:34 AM

You may have been too young back in 91 to 96 but at least the music is still there to enjoy. Yes that was a damn good era for music. And Im not just saying that because it was "my" generation. I also grew up in the 80s and I thought alot of the shit they called music sucked back then too, like the hairspray bands. Of course the 80s had its good music too.

However, this millenium music has no redeeming value whatsoever. I cant imagine myself as a teenager and getting musically inspired by Linkin Park or Papa Roach.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/14/02 07:58 AM

Versatility is the key, shoot, you guys know this though. But Chris and MRT 1212, music parrellel's history. It you both know it goes in cycles, and before long, your favorite mastered style will once again be the latest "dope" [(so is how the happening fad, sadly, is described in todays times)I must add as an old buzzard who has done plenty enough 'dope' in my days to know that it is NOT a good thing]. Darn, I was so happy when we all called it "The Bomb". Who the hell is in charge of that BTW?

Posted by: 800dv

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/14/02 11:38 AM

I agree Chris . The more I listen to this brain dead rock and grunge the more I feel that rock is dead . People say that electronic music has no soul , it's the crap on the radio that has no soul . The reason - the stuff is mass produced for the brain dead sheep who keep buying it . The music on the radio is not popular because it's good . It's popular because it's cramed down the radio stations neck . Of course there is also PAYOLA , how can you compete with that . How can you compete with some major record label jackass calling the radio stations ever hour on the hour . Electronic music has a huge underground , always has , always will . Keep on going , get more aggressive . I know I am . Treat these people like it's an honor for them to listen to you're music - WHICH IT IS . It's you're hard work , you're soul . Open the eyes of the sheep .
Posted by: squeak_D

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/15/02 01:51 PM

I agree with everyone here.. The quality of music today has really gone down hill. It's amazing what people put on the radio and call music... These little lame ass teenie bopper groups like Back Door Boys, and Britney "should be" Speared!... No one wants to do their own music anymore... Everyone is just sampling other peoples stuff.. Rap music is HUGE on this.. They just take everyone elses music and put their own lyrics to it.. Back in the day the music was produced by "real" musicians who earned their titles as musicians.. With today's technology basically anyone who doesn't know squat about music can buy a piece of equipment that makes them sound like a pro. What every happened to people actually getting behind the instruments and playing them? On the radio today they did a funny comparison of the music from the original Woodstock and the Woodstock of today... Let me tell you today's musicians who play at Woodstock don't have anything on the ones of yesterday. It was a difference of night and day.. This lame attempt at metal and grunge today really is depressing? I was born in the early 70's and I can tell you that from what I've seen, music started it's downfall when everyone started sampling stuff.. With the invention of the professional synth/workstation allowing musicians to sample and loop started a whole new era of "wanna be" musicians.. I'm not trying to knock everyone out there that samples and stuff, because I know a lot of really good musicians who sample, but we all know there are musicians out there who do not deserve the title of "musician" Espcially people like Britney "God I can't stand her ass" Spears....
Posted by: slr-online

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/16/02 12:34 AM

And there was me thinking I was just getting old...........

I actually sold my Radio on E Bay last week because of all the crap that was being piped through it. It will NOT be replaced until the 'music' can justify my spending hard earned cash.
Posted by: Jiddu

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/17/02 01:18 AM

I was at a bar last night and I heard a song that had the days of our lives theme sampled...

you just gotta laugh I think


theyre is a helluva lot of underground hip hop that has brought back a lot of old sckool funk and soul through sampling..
I love pretty much everybody on the ninja tune label (and similars) and all they do is sample.

I think its just a matter of abuse, like the (minor) I, VI, VII progression in mainstream electronic dance.

And squeakD you bag the crud out of sampling yet you give Britney ( god [b]I[\b] love her ass ) and Backstreet boys ( indifferent ) as examples. I dont think they sampled anything..

I do agree with 800dv about the big labels dictating commercial radio playlist.. thats a really sad part about music industry.

moby, fatboy and prodigy have all produced multiple hit albums.. I think they're talented. If your gonna pay out, pay out on darude or atb or something..
Posted by: Chris Attison

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/17/02 08:57 AM

When it comes to boy/girl bands like N' Sync, 98 degrees, Britney Spears, etc, I think its ridicculous to blame them. These people were recruited for the job. If they werent present at the auditions, it would have been the next pretty face. Its the record companies and other various corporate entities that create these ludicrous acts that little 10 year old girls go crazy for.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/19/02 12:14 AM

Bingo. Chris, I guess you realize the industry...a publishing business. What does the music industry have interests in with how the published music product sounds? Nada. The main factor of the industry's interests are in the dollar. Anotherwards, what it sounds like means nothing, and what it sells like means everything. Musicianship dont mean much, and it never really did as far as the publishing aspect goes. These rappers couldn't tell you the accidentals in the key of C maj. and the only # they will ever know of is the one on their cell phone. As I said though, music goes in cycles similar to like the way history repeats itself. It comes back, but in a slightly different form each time. People that say electronic music has no soul...gentlemen, ignore those who insult us, but if you must, simply smile and hand them the microphone and tell them to give it a shot. Most folks who are to critic you are only blaring out their own inadequicies. Many Americans can't even sing "The Star Spangled Banner" (the United States National Anthem by Francis Scott Key)
Finally, Here's a thought for you...
Hira, my Japanese friend, pianist, and teacher says to not think of how old you are, but to know how much wiser you get as each day passes. Wisdom of experience through time cannot be replaced or derrived from anything else. Even a new born each day is one day closer to thier body pushing the daisys up from the ground. What of those so foolish to insult an elder for thier age and then immediately by the odds and thier lack of wisdom jay walk out in front of a speeding automobile? By the paradyme, know that this has, or will someday happen if it has not already. Savor wisdom, cherish life.
Posted by: squeak_D

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/19/02 07:57 AM

My intent wasn't to bad mouth sampling in general.. I honestly don't have anything against the sampling process in general.. My only gripe is those who abuse it. So many groups today just use samples of other music, so I see originality being lost in the process. I myself sample, but I don't use others music..., If I recall one of the teenie bopper groups just re-did an earlier hip hop song from several years back....
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/19/02 11:10 AM

More on soul and electronic musicianship.
Quoted from Rattley on a different post:

"I use my pedalboard with 2 61 note midi keyboards with the SCPOP and still get watery eyes sometimes when I play."

We have all gotten watery eyes Rattley. Its because all of us who play-operate electronic musical instruments can sometimes better deliver our soulfull sound to the speakers than many other instruments. The potential of sounds is infinite.
The synthesizer. Packed with soul, delivered electronically.
Your friendly electrochemically activated carbon based unit,
Posted by: 800dv

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/19/02 10:06 PM

Well said Morphamatik .
Posted by: Blacklight

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/21/02 09:07 AM

Has anyone noticed how little work is getting put into the actual music, especially in rap and R&B today ?? It's like they only lay out like three tracks (usially maybe two measures of a simple analog synth line, if we're lucky, 8 notes or so, each) and just repeat them over and over again. I remember when the music sounded like it had a good 20 or 30 tracks recorded just for the music alone !! Nowadays, it sounds like they don't want to invest the money into making the music and they spend maybe ten minutes putting the music to the song together (being an experienced electronic musician, I know what it takes to make that music and I've done whole tunes just like those on the radio in like 10 minutes just to see how much time they invest in making the music.) It's like theyr throw all mhe cash into marketing and next to nothing into the music itself and heck.. Look at the music videos that are out now for this genera. Every tingle one is based on the same two or three subjects, and they all include the SAME camrea techniques (IE that damn fish eye lense that maked the guy's face really big and funny when it gets near the camera and also those anoying sped up really fast scenes) It looks like the videos take nothing to write (cuz they are all the same) and all the money goes into airplay and marketing. This has been bothering me for a long time. Thanks to big corporations, it seems like talented bands aren't getting ANY airplay or marketing. Heck.. It seems (and sounds to me) like the music is being done in ONE studio with the SAME instruments and then is shipped out to the various bands who do the vocals.. then, the same director comes along and makes a video for it using the same script and same equipment and the same camera with the fish eye lense and then speeds up the video double speed to make them look like they are dancing really fast and funny. Anyone else notice this ?? 8)
Posted by: 800dv

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/21/02 10:02 AM

Well , unfortunately todays music is only for the LCD kids and people . By LCD I mean lowest comon dinominator people . As far as Rap and Hip Hop , it's all done on those shit box Akai MPC models , that's partly the reason why it all sounds the same . As for the producers of it , they are just vultures , they all wait and see what sells and then they copy it . I'm gonna be a little fair in saying that I'm sure that some of them can actually play . But , most of them absolutely need those MPC shit boxes , without them , they couldn't do it . Lets face it guys and girls , original thinking and looking forward is not recognized anymore . Back in the 70s KRAFTWERK was recognized because they were WAY ahead of their time and NO ONE could come close to recreating their sound . That kind of thing isn't celebrated anymore . Atleast not in the US . In Europe they are way more open minded and forward thinking in music , while also remembering the past . In the US , if you don't have great tits and ass or the latest Phat street wear , you don't get heard . This is just an idea , but , maybe if all of us came together and CRAMED our stuff down the radio stations throat , things may change . That's what the record companies do , they cram it down the stations throat .
Posted by: squeak_D

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/21/02 12:35 PM

I totally agree with you.. I know so many people who have those MPC's, and if they didn't have the MPC they couldn't do crap for music production. What's sad is that so many people are buying the MPC for rap and hip hop, not because they think it sounds good, but because it's what everyone is using. Personally I think it's an over rated, and overpriced piece of crap. That's the problem with today's music industry.. They don't give a damn whether you can sing or not.. It's all 100% image now... Again I refer to Britney Spears.. Let's be honest guys.., yeah this girl is hot as hell, and she's built like a brick house, but she really can't sing for crap... Just take one of her most recent songs and completely strip it of all vocal processing, and just listen to her voice (dry)... It's not good at all. Then you have singers like Christina Agularie (excuse the spelling), who can sing her ass off and has a major set of pipes who doesn't get the recognition she deserves. Her vocal range is incredible, but because she wasn't the so to say inocent school girl Britney was supposed to be, she gets overlooked for her talent. What ever happened to the real R&B, and hip hop groups from the 90's.... Groups like Boyz II Men, Bel Biv DeVoe, and Shai? Those people were awsome singers.. They actually used their own natural voices and it sounded great.. Today you get all this crappy ass over processed shit that sounds awful. The US really needs to pick itself up out of this rut and get back on track with the music industry.. Lately if you're not teenie bopper material no one wants to sign you..
Posted by: 800dv

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/21/02 01:00 PM

Well , from all the Europian friends I have as well as just reading up on some history , the US thinks it leads the world in everything . I know I an american , but I'm not a brain washed sheep either . The US doesn't lead in anything - especially music . Yes maybe we started electronic music in 1876 but the europians ( i.e. Germans ) showed us all how it's done . Thomas Dolby , Kraftwerk , Tangerine Dream , New Musik , Ultravox , Komputer , Jean Michel Jarre , The Human League , Depeche Mode , Vladimir Ussachevsky , Bulent Arel , Yaz , Erasure are but just a few who kept american groups like Devo scrambling to keep up . America is not a leader in anything except planed obsolesnce and throw away pop culture . The majority of the people have the attention span of a knat and Brittney will not be remembered 10 years from now . Europe is the market to look at , to focus on .
Posted by: Soft Machine

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/21/02 05:14 PM

I think we should also consider alot of stuff that has and is still coming out of places like Asia, The middle and Far east, Australia And South America

Why does it aleays have to be the Germans or the US

why not CANADA, France, Spain, Portugal

THE MUSIK IS out there....

Heck id even listen to Arctic musik...but I guess i already did

Residents 'ESKIMO" Haha
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/21/02 06:44 PM

Your'e right 800 & squeak. Quoting myself earlier in the thread..."These rappers couldn't tell you the accidentals .... and the only # they will ever know of is the one on their cell phone."

I can tell you in two words what the entire american music industry revoles around.

Posted by: 800dv

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/21/02 07:41 PM

Well , SoftMachine I didn't even want to get into the other countries because it makes america look even worse . But , trust me , I haven't forgotten Asia , Canada , and the rest . America is nothing but a country of users , not innovaters , just users . We soak up everything and just use it up . Hell , I was watching the history channel and remembering the space program and just watching hoe the Russians kick our ass . The only reason we won the race to the moon is the fact that the Russians suffered a horrible accident and set back , other wise they would have won that one too . We won because we were lucky , not better . In the music business America thinks that right here is the only market that matters . Just Like Morphamatik said , it's all about copies sold . It doesn't get any plainer than that .
Posted by: Blacklight

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/21/02 10:19 PM

Man ! I forgot about Canada. Several of the electronic groups that came from there were among the most innovative in their field. Look at Skinny Puppy for pete's sake ! about 99% of their music is so layerd and complex that they would be near to impossible to duplicate without spending monsterous hours tweaking and blatantly trying to figure out how they did certain stuff. And the music really complicates it further.. I mean.. every time I listen to one of their tracks, I hear something new in it that I hadn't heard before (and I've been listening to their stuff since "84 or sometime around there). Considering that I could duplicate a popular hip hop song in ten minutes, and that it would take me months to duplicate a Puppy song, you can clearly see that these people just aren't putting any effort into the music itself.
Oh.. and here's my other pet peeve. Pop stars are really starting to overuse the vocoder. It's driving me nutz !!

Anyway.. this is the reason that I ended up buying my own synthesizers and electronic gear. Since I don't like the music that is out there at the moment (even the new industrial music is bland to me now. It seems all the industrial acts are either going techno/drum&bass or KMFDM style, NIN style or Ministry style with drum machines), I decided to make my own music that I could enjoy so I can have something new to play in my car and not go crazy !!!
Posted by: Blacklight

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/21/02 10:30 PM

Oh.. and in reference to the space program thing.. America was actually much more innovative than the Russians in respect to safety, quality and dependability. It took us a little while and a few errors to get that far, but our space program focussed more on safety than the Russian one did (Heck.. they were shooting up people without space suits for a while there. They actually lost three of their cosmonauts because a hatch blew out on reentry and they suffocated). That was the reason that we were behind them. They were sending people up while we were sending up animals and test equipment to make sure the environment was safely habitable. Our rockets later on in the program blew up a lot less than theirs did also.

(I know this is off topic, but I had to defend that fact that America HAD to have been innovative somewhere.. even IF they are into crappy throw away pop music..)
Posted by: tekminus

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/23/02 11:38 AM

The Soviet space program was so underestimated. They did tests and even sent up a dog into space (Laika). They beat the US fair and square with having one of both sexes up in space first (Yuri Gagarin and Valentina "Chaika" Tereshkova). Tereshkova married another cosmonaut and is the mother to the first child ever with parents that both have visited space.

Posted by: MRT1212

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/23/02 04:14 PM

grand funk railroad is so underestimated
Posted by: 800dv

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/23/02 08:40 PM

Another big problem in Electronic music is that everytime you see an article or story , it's most often than not a DJ . DJ's get more recognition than the people who actually make the music . Most younger people that talk to me about electronic music always ask me " what do I spin " . I always have to tell them that I don't play records , I play the music . When did it become cool not to actually perform the music , but to just play a damn record ??
Posted by: Uncle Dave

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/24/02 08:20 AM

Originally posted by 800dv:
When did it become cool not to actually perform the music , but to just play a damn record ??

Many people believe that EVERYthing we watch, listen to, or wear, is determined by a very small group of people in about a 10 miles radius that circles LA. Nothing in the media happens by accident. They research what will sell TODAY and then they cram it down our throats. They are, no doubt, planning our wardrobe for tomorrow, RIGHT NOW.

The attraction to "spinnig" is not so different from that of (I hate to even type the letters....) Karaoke. It EASY. People can do it WITHOUT the talent and practice involved in becoming an artist.
Before I offend any DJ's - I'm not saying that you don't need talent to perform well - my point is that it's an entirely different set of mechanical skills, and is VERY much removed from playing or MAKING music. At it's simplest terms, spinning can be compared to a percussive-like skill, but playing records, no matter HOW interactive you may be - is not MAKING music. It's manipulating music. It's restructuring music, maybe, but to really enjoy the creation of music is much more involved, requires talent and dedication and today's crop of new "artists" have NO clue what it's all about.

Being a singer is not even on the same level, because it's a gift that you really cannot learn. You can learn diction, breathing, phrasing etc.....but no one can teach you how to sing. Every singer should take music lessons to learn the "partnership" between the lyric and the music. It's vital.

So, in a round-a-bout answer to your question .... it's NOT really cool at all - it's just a lazy, accepted norm that makes me sad. Being a musician has brought me so much joy in my life and it's supported my family for over 30 years. I hate to see what's happening to my craft at the hands of all these "marketing" exec's that are controlling MY life's work. It's a shame, it really is.
Posted by: Blacklight

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/24/02 09:10 AM

I think that electronic music especially at this point needs to get thrust into more experimental directions rather than the same one over and over again. Experimentation usually creates totally new sounds. I'm experimenting myself and I don't think ANY band that ever existed sounds like my stuff as I took the music into a direction that I don't think ever existed before (collide together the sounds of Skinny Puppy, Dead Can Dance, add a sprinkling of Controlled Bleeding's total noise, and the guitars of Lycia and you pretty much have my style). The electronic music industry needs new stuff, not the rehashed, highly repetative sounds like Prodigy and Crystal Method, and that new one that's out with the video of the guy dancing on the sidewalk. Whenever any of those groups even have vocals, the vocals are just repedative samples. That drives me crazy. If the music itself is repedative, at least do something with the vocals to carry it along. Don't just sample yourself saying like four sentances and just repeat them over and over every other measure...
(Can you tell that I'm a little anti-mainstream ?) 8)
Posted by: Blacklight

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/24/02 09:20 AM

Oh. Here's another thing I encounter a lot, especially from the rock music crowd. "So, do you play any real instruments or just synthesizers ?" or from my own father "Synthesizers aren't instruments ! They're computers !!"
I hate to break it to these people, but synthesizers are as much an instrument as a guitar is (and I play both) and I can get just as much emotional expression out of my synths as I do out of my guitar. Why is it that rock music people so often completely HATE the synthesizer so much ? I have yet to figure this out. All I can think of is that they see the arpeggiator or sequencer going on a synth and they think that that's all that playing the synth is all about. It's ignorance because they never took the time to fully understand the technology due to the learning curve and fail to see it as an expressive instrument (This is probably also propagated by the fact that the electronic bands they get exposed to have probably never actually played a keyboard in their lives and just let a sequencer do everything, or they mistake the sample loop stuff of the R&B hip hop genera to be synth playing)
Posted by: 800dv

Re: Well, we might as well admit it. - 08/24/02 11:01 AM

Yeah , Blacklight , I always loved those STUPID questions . But , most people are too stupid to realize that EVERY musical instrument is a technological advancement . The Piano is more sophisticated than the harpsichord , the guitar is more sophisticated than the Lute . As we progressed , we made drums into all kinds of shapes and learned how to tune them . You have to remember that most people are dumb sheep , unfortunate but true . I always loved the question " Do you know how to play a real instrument " ?? I would now answer a little angrier ( but these idiots deserve it ) " What , is the synthesizer a figment of you're imagination you damn idiot " ?! Remember , people are stupid , most are affraid of the synthesizer . Back 1000 years ago , those same idiots were affraid when the sun went down .