Quality or Quantity?

Why do synthe makers all need to put 1200 sounds and 60 drum kits on their synthes? I would much prefer a keyboard with 8 drumkits and 300 sounds. They keep upping the amount of memory in keyboards, but then just keep packing more sounds in. I would like to see a keyboard that conserves on numbers and allocates their memory to highest quality possible. Especially in the areas of horns and solo strings and guitars. Pianos and drums they've gotten down pretty well.

Thoughts? Do you like having a million banks of a million sounds?

Hi!
Unfortunetly every sample playback synth with on board ROM waveforms is made for an "average user", who needs a bit of everything and isn't as "picky". That's why most guys (who need bigger samples and less junk that they don't need) buy samplers or workstations with sampling capabilities.
Some synth manufacturers like Roland and Kurzwell make expansion cards, but I prefer a 300 meg string section to a 4 meg one any time a day - that's why I use samplers.
ED

You used the phrase, "A bit of everything". That's exactly what I mean. Just a bit. I've got a Roland xp-80, fully expanded. There is so much redundancy in that board. Give me one stereo sampled piano instead of 5 nonstereo pianos that all pretty much sound the same. Give me one good violin instead of 6 bad ones. I really think most keyboards could cut down on the number of patches and still give everyone what they need. Just my 0.02

The Kurzweil PC2 - series seem to fill the bill. I understand there is limited editing. My understanding is the sounds are excellent as well as navigation ease. I've had a K2000RS and a a K2600 and the sounds were excellent.

Jerry

You've got a strong point when you say that you need one good violon sample instead of six bad ones. I'll mention it to Roland at the next NAMM. I personally got fed up with Roland compressing their samples. There isn't any need for it nowadays. And you're right - those six bad violins (or pianos or whatever)almost sound the same. THey might as well just be one good sample.
ED

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 09-20-2003).]

You'll mention it to Roland? Are you ****ing kidding me? Are you serious?

FAEbGBD, I suppose they (Roland, Korg, Yamaha) need to do this in order to look competitive. The average user doesn't think about, or even know, what smaller sized samples mean. This way Roland can say they have 6 violins in their brochures. They're also sufficient for most gigging musicians. It's only in the studio you'll notice the weaknesses of the samples. That's why we have Emu, Akai and Kurzweil.

-tek

Tek!
"mention it to Roland"
- I thought you'd like that one!
But this discussion just cries for sarcasm and irony.
I think trying to figure out why the synth makers do what they do, or even try to persuade them to make any changes is an impossible task.
All we can do is either buy their synths or not buy them.
For years Roland were getting complains about the quality of their outputs, bad dynamic voice allocation, short and thin samples and sample compression. Not to mention obnoxious RND pan settings that almost all presets are set to. Complaining and asking questions did NOT make any difference at ALL.
At some point I just stopped buying their synths. That's my solution.
ED

The thing is you are both right about Roland. We might say they are double assholes even. There is one thing only that makes Roland change shit. It is a familiar symbol: $
If enough people tell them they are not going to buy from them until they do something about quality Then they will start writing new schematics. The thing is they will listen, but only to numbers. If all of us wrote the same thing in to them, if would cretainly go far far further, and if tenacious about it, a design meeting could be called if we proved even slightly right (which we are).
POST SUBJECT:
I think that there should be sound groups that you can choose from when you buy a new synth, just like if you order a new car from the factory. You buy the synth and the presets you want are loaded in semi-permanently plus making it able to have the other sounds for a later purchase. I need to have superior quality foundational sound or I won't even bother. I have many times taken a patch and sampled it into my kurz only for the purpose of creating the same patch on the kurz, made by the kurz. So what does that tell you about the quality of patches given on most synths? It flat out sucks in most cases.
Me? It's quality or it's nothing. I have to deal with enough of other people's turds and I'll be damned if I'm gonna have to start dealing with my own too.
MORPH!

Roland...
Just like in that commercial in '86
"Roland designs the future!"
But sadly - not my future.
Although, looking at a bright side -the V-Synth wasn't bad ...not bad at all!
May be all the complaining made them think (at least a little bit). But i can only guess.
ED

I agree. Someone really earned their pay at Roland when they came up with an idea to save their investment in the variphrase technology. The V-synth, although it is somewhat "gritty" of a sounding synth, it holds a key that no other synth has as far as sounds and creations of new tones. In 5 minutes you can begin creating sounds that are absolutely out of this world which could be done otherwise with a whole bunch of other gear on a long and tedious setup. The v-synth makes this long grueling task immediate, hands-on, and even on the fly.
The V-synth can be heard on a San Diego based friend / producer bt's (work) "Never gonna come back down" - bt
MORPH!

PS: No, bt does not stand for bong toke. Although at times that sounds like it might be kind of nice.
It's his initials silly!(forBrianTranseau)but you didn't find that out from me.

------------------
Exclusively "Rights Free" Production in the USA
"As far as we are concerned, it's all you. Our name goes on nothing!"
MORPH Productions Group LLC
Laguna Beach, CA 92652-0054 (USA)

I don't think his initials are that big of a secret. www.BrianTranseau.com



-tek

FAEbGBD,

I believe your perspective work in theory. However, the problem is that quality is a relative and subjective attribute.

For me, electric piano sound is not quality. I would rather they invest in excellent acoustic grandpiano sound than give me extra electric pianos.

I know my comments would enrage many, especially those whose genre of music require such an instrument. But that is exactly my point. Quality is a subjective matter after all.

The best Keyboard that handles this is Genesys where all memory is flash. So the factory installed sounds can be erased and replaced.

Some of those home version of keyboard like P80/90, pf series that came only with few sounds or presets are still too pricey, but I am not sure yet if the manufacturer put their top of the line samples on them.

Faeg-

you said that you think they've got piano and drums nailed.

Can I just follow that up with a question?

What keyboard do you think has the best piano sound?

I've been a Roland man for years, but for pianos, I'd have to say that Yamaha does a better job. I really think they did a nice job on the S90 and Motif pianos. They aren't good enough to make a solo classical piano album out of, but it would be difficult to distinguish the difference in a multi-timbral multi-instrument composition.

SK880, sure, quality is relative, but the huge number of patches on these boards to impress people is over the top. Even the S90, whose pianos I praise, could probably have done better giving us 2 pianos instead of 8.

Well, looks like we're back to square one again...
Did you buy your synths just for pianos and brass and all that meat & Potato stuff?

May be I'm overanalyzing (for which I apologize in advance), but it seems to me like you're buying your synths for their on-board samples. Not for the sonic ability or ANY programming capabilities for that matter. If you're after BIG piano sounds - get a sampler. Then you'll decide how to use up the memory. You know grab a CD ROM with 256 MG piano samples or whatever. Why not do that?
There's just NO point in complaining about on board ROM on your synth. You only solution is to spend a couple of grand and get your self a sampler.
BTW have you ever used a sampler, do you know what it is?

For many of us (players, mostly) it is better to leave sampling to the real pros. I have never heard a user sample that compared to the comercial products.
I buy kbs as a substitute for the real thing. There are no venues that will support a 17 pc band in my neighborhood, so I have been forced to downsize to keep working. Since going solo (late 1980's), I rely on high quality samples to reproduce (as close as possible) the sounds of the instruments that I cannot afford to hire...or don't have room (or patience) for.
I'm sure most of the readers here know what samplers are, but the most common useage of digital kbs (at least in the US) has got to be peformance oriented. Tweaking and fiddling with knobs and filters is not the norm for many working players, so that's why we seem to clamour for the instuments with the best "on board" sounds.
"Meat & Potatoes" are what puts bread on the table for me...and in my pocket too, so please don't be so condecending toward those of us that derive little pleasure from adjusting sounds that we already like. For the average pro player in Philly - the sound of the instrument is secondary to the selection of tunes, the vocal prowess, and the overall entertainment value. Players get paid each performance. Programmers get paid once - at the factory...or in a studio.
( I do that too )
Programmers are few and far between in my world. When we need to modify a sound - we fix it, and save it .... and USE it. End of tweaking.
I'm sure you have a vast background of Synth-knowledge 3351, but give us a break with the put downs. We all play for different reasons and the use of a product is to serve the needs of the user. It's very individual, don't you think?
Didn't mean to sound harsh, but you struck a nerve with your last comment.
Your point about buying samples os very valid, but the way you presented it sounds like a critique.

Ok Uncle Dave - please don't get upset. I'm saying this as a player. I'm putting all the producer and programmer crap aside for now.
But do hear me out - please!
Above all I value a good tune - not knobs and faders.
And I grew up surrounded by good players, not good producers. May be I come across as a "strictly programmer kinda guy" but that's because all I ever speak about on this site is synths.
Speaking as a player, I think one has to understand the basics about the instrument that they are using. One doesn't need to be a programmer to understand those basics. Nowadays, a lot of people go to a music store (having played a PSR for 2 years and having no understanding about Pro gear), play a tuba sound on a Pro-synth for three seconds , pay and take it home. They don't really understand what they are buying. It is somewhat irresponsible, to buy a "cat in a bag" and then complain about it.
If someone needs big samples and doesn't want to carry a sampler around - they don't need a 2080, they need a workstation that can load samples. And there are many sample libraries available - they are pretty good too. For both studio work and live performance.

It's good to be a player, but using a synth or a synth workstation requires a bit of knowledge that a lot of strictly players lack...They just act like they don't care.
hence- their frustrations.

Sincerely,
ED

I am familiar wih samplers. I have Gigastudio. I also know my way around the XP-80, my primary synthe at the moment. I have almost filled a user bank with sound enhancements and original sound ideas of my own. I love editing and creating. I was trying to answer Equalizer's question in my last post, not continue to complain about what I think is a lack of high quality samples. I do not base my opinions strictly on the XP either.

Cool!
I hope I didn't piss you off with my earlier remarks. And you're right about lack of high quality samples on Roland synths and expansions. Although I liked their older "Vintage", "world" and "Drums & Bass" expansions. Some people say that the old "piano" one wasn't bad either , but that's just a matter of preference.

ED

Hmm yeah well what can I say tek, he's into his own gig these days...sorta like the poster boy for electronica. His stuff is nothing that you or I can't do though with a variphrase and a good wav editor, throw in a pizza and a 6 pack. Although both from nearby on the east coast, I dash and hide from the limelight. The limelight exposes you to the "Wrigley Factor"
It's like a piece of gum you pull it out of the pack and it looks great then take off the sleeve, looking better unravel the foil and there it is mmmm pop it in your mouth and chew chew chew ...hmmm ½ hr later you are looking for a trash can. by the time an hour goes by it must be removed immediately fahpooom it goes flying out of your mouth on the freeway. There you are in the carpool lane of the 405 right next to the drain. not an easy place to come pull out from only to get back on the long escalator ride to get chewed up and spit out again.
Example: Any female vocalist
After a while, everybody pumps their own petrol

You have such a lovely way with words, Morph.

-tek