Best Synth For The Money ...

Guys,

I'm contemplating purchasing a new synth. The problem is, I don't really have much experience in this realm, so I don't know which brand to buy.

So far, for around the same money, I see the Korg Triton, the Yamaha Motiff ES6 and the Roland X7(not sure about the model).

I liked the Roland because it had the seemed to be a bit more advanced, and I really thought the piano sound beat the other two.

I am a software engineer so I envision doing a lot of work thru the computer. I'm also in my mid 30's, so you know my favorite type of music to play is 80's, Bon Jovi, etc. I currently own a Kawai K3, but it is a bit dated and limiting for my tastes.

I plan on spending no more than 2500 bucks for the purchase.

Can someone please make a few suggestions? Maybe, I don't even need to spend 2500? I did play around with a Korg Triton Le, however, I didn't think the piano sound is where it needed to be for my tastes.

Thanks all very much for your help.

Dave

If you don't want to pay more than 2500 $US you will not get a Kurzweil synth...
If you only want to get a good piano sound you may want to have a yamaha e-piano. I've heard their good piano abilities.

Hey cool! I'm a hard- and software engineer in the mid 30's too. I'm also loving the 70's rock and the 80's metal. I had also played a Kawai but in the version K1 before I went to Yamaha V-50 and Kurzweil K2000.

Roland's and Korg's synths are also smoothable I think so...
Good luck on your quest!


------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 03-13-2005).]

For 2500 your choices are near anything. If i had the money i would get a Roland Fantom-X, 76 key if you would like. IMO that is the best workstation to date. I just love the thing. It also has an incredible grand piano mode, the sounds are excellent.

The motif is very orchestrial, huge wav rom. Although the screen is petite, and as I have heard the sequencer is difficult to learn.

The Fantom is great for synths and pads, along with good orchestrial. Sweet sampling and sequencing modes. The LCD is huge, and the color is great. Very vivid lcd colors, you could watch tv on the thing!

I dont know much about the Triton, the touchscreen is cool. And of course the CDRW is awesome. Look at the black triton. 175mb of wav rom, it looks sweet.

Phil

[This message has been edited by Pennywizz6 (edited 03-17-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Pennywizz6 (edited 03-17-2005).]

"Best synth for the money is a software synth"
Hi!
FIrst about the hardware.
This should give you a broader perspective: http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum1/HTML/003296.html

I don't know what made you decide that Roland Phantom X is more advanced. but than again, appearance and big displays can be deceaving.
Number one thing to look for is software support, ease of use and expandability. Roland uses only sampling and sample playback synthesis. It is hardly more advanced than Triton or Motif.
The samples that you get with ROland Expansion cards aren't exactly fantastic and hard to use in the mix (actually this one goes for all ROland sounds). They sound alright by themselves but in the mix they basically "walk all over each other" if you know what I mean. If you don't, than do not find out the hard way!
My personal preference is the MOtif ES 8. Mostly for keyboard feel, plug-in boards that add polyphony and independant synthesis engines.

Here's my main point though. You have mentioned that you are new to this and that you used to working with computers. You have also mentioned that you find the quality of piano sounds very important. I think you should expand in that direction as in oppose to face eventuall disapointment of having to deal with limitations of Roland, Korg and Yamaha workstations.

Truth is, software synthesis and software sampling is far ahead of what any today's workstation has to offer. For example something like Steinberg's "The Grand" and Ilio/Spectrasonics "Ivory" deliver gigs and gigs of full length superb quality piano samples instead of some misarable 32 or so megs of short, looped and stretched piano sounds found on Roland Phantom X.
The pianos on Phantom X could sound very impressive at first, but once you get into playing and using tons of sustained notes and different velocity ranges you will find that the cross-fades are actually quite cruide and that the loop points are more obvious than they seem originally.
But really, instead of me trying to explain you the difference between something good and something crappy, check it out for yourself: http://www.ilio.com/synthogy/ivory/

The best thing about software instruments is price. They cost a fraction of what workstations go for.
My advice to you is this. Get a decent controller (something like Yamaha S90 will be perfect. It has the same keyboard feel as the MOtif ES8, good sounds that work well together and even takes the same plug-in boards as the Motif ES series). Than get some decent software plug-ins for your computer and rock on!

OF coarse if you prefer pain and suffering of using Roland Phantom X which will eventually seem like real nightmare GO AHEAD!
See, workstations have their place. SOme guys who play live obviously can't take their entire setup on the road and so they choose to get Phantoms and Tritons. They are cool synths, but really limited in comparison to software instruments. Again, if you want to learn it the hard way it is your choice.

Good luck on your decision. Hope you choose something that will meet your needs.
-ED-

Thanks everyone for your input. I really appreciate member 3351 for your insight. This is exactly why I posted my message. I think you may have found exactly what I am looking for, by suggesting using a controller with software. I guess if I really thought about this I should have known this would be the best option for me, but I haven't been paying much attention to the synth world over the past 10 years, or so.

You guys rock, thanks!!!

Dave

Dave, im glad you found whatcha needed. One thing though, software synths means non gigging, and very hard to transport. Well unless you just use a rack and a controller. Let us know whatcha gunna pick! As for a controller the M-Audio 88 hammer action is lookin pretty good, although heeeeavy!

Phil

[This message has been edited by Pennywizz6 (edited 03-17-2005).]

Penny,

I don't anticipate doing any gigging, unlesss I get real good, real quickly.

It will probably be a while before I purchase because I rarely spend significant money without doing much research.

Thanks again.

I gig all the time with software synths and it works just fine. Of course, I have a laptop and an external soundcard. I wouldn't bother if I had to lug along my PC.

I use the Motif ES as my controller, mainly because I have a Motif ES, and it sounds great to boot on it's own. Otherwise, any decent controller would do.

I use Xlutop Chainer as my virtual softsynth rack. I simply save my vst instrument and effects combinations as chainer files, and then call them up instantly, like I would on any hardware board.

AJ

And now... because I can type very quickly and very poorly, all at the same time, once again.....

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-19-2005).]

Bluezplayer,

I've been doing a little reading on the M-88 and have to say it seems like a very good package for the money.

I read a review and was hoping you could either confirm or deny one of the author's observations. He wrote about the noticeable "lag" from the time you press the key until the time you hear the note play. Is this the case and if so, have you found anything that will eliminate the latency?

Thanks!

I'm actually not assured that soft synths reaches toward the posibilities af hard synths. There was a little discussion between ED and me about this theme in another thread. Do you remember, ED?
I remember that ED and I agreed in that point that it would be a good idea to combinate this two elements in studio ambiances.
You need a KBcontroller for your soft synths? What about using a real synth with a weighted keyboard doing this job? You can expand your posibilities if you check out for a synth with an onboard sampling option. This will give you the ability to re-sample your sounds from one machine to the other.
IMHO at the and you will see that soft synths and hard synths aren't really different. For example: I'm using the Kurzweil's 'old' K2000RS with - the name reveals it - an onboard sampler. This sampler creates '.WAV' files. Your PC is also working with this file type.
Where is the difference? They both need AD-/DA-converters with high quality. My hard synth does it have! But my sound card...? Better use an high quality audio card...

To avoid latency under Windows OSs you still need a standard called ASIOdirect.
1. make sure that you don't use a mainboard with VIA's chip set which won't support the PCI interface in that way it used to be
2. make sure that you use an audio card which also supports ASIOdirect

The only software for this job that I know is Steinberg's Cubase (MX or SX). This program provides the advantage that it is available for Mac OS too (many professional studios are using Mac OS instead of Windows). So you can interact with them.

EDIT: Cubase is a sequenzer software. For this program it makes no difference wether you're controlling a soft or a hard synth. And if this won't be enough you can mix down and record all external sounds and wave tracks as one - a hifi stereo wave track. This will longing for burning them down on CDs.
Hey, isn't it your own label?

------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 03-20-2005).]

hauschild,

Yes, you can reduce the latency by using an ASIO compliant soundcard. In my system the avrerage latency is approx 5 to 6 ms. It is generally agreed that anything under 10 ms is barely perceptible if perceptibe at all.

Even if your soundcard doesn't have asio drivers, you can try the freeware ASIO4ALL drivers, which to date, has worked fine with every vsti host and sequencer / music production app that I use, and every soundcard I have including the cheap internal ones on both of my computers

Cubase is fine too btw. I use Cakewalk Sonar, which is a similar product. Each interface approcahes things in somewhat different ways, and since I "learned" on Cakewalk Express, it was a natural progression for me to move up to Sonar. At the end of the day, you can accomplish pretty much the same things with either.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-23-2005).]

-ED-(or, anyone for that matter,

I've been some research over the last week. I'm currently looking at an S90, which you suggested. This may be the synth I end up going with.

I'm also mulling the 76 key Korg Triton Extreme and the Yamaha Motif ES7. Can you provide some more insight into these two synths?

From what I've seen on ebay, the bid prices for the ES7's are significantly higher than the Trtiton extremes, while sam ash has these two priced nearly the same. Am I reading too much into this, or are the Motif synths a little more in demand; basically better?

Feature-wise, I perceive them to be nearly the same. However, I'd like any opinions on which synth may be more advanced, upgradeable, etc.

Again, I hate to bore you with my pedestrian questions, but sometimes I spend a lot of time on the net researching things for which answers are difficult to find. So, thanks!

The Motif series (along with other yamaha instruments) it does great with orchestrial sounds. In return the synths, ambient and other sounds well, kinda suck. If you plan on doing heavy piano and not much exsperimenting with straightforward sequencing it may be right for you. If you dont need that much wave rom, look into the original Motif, 85 rom instead of the 120 (i think) of the ES. The original is basically the same thing, you can research the differences and added stuff on the ES. It will save you around 800 if not more for the used earlier version. However as you know the screen is very disapointing with the Motif's. Its small, but easily navigational. I dont believe the Motif series is exspanable.

The Triton Extreme is really cool. Packed with huge amounts of wave rom (165). Unlike Yamahas the Triton is great with synths and other ambient or electronica sounds. They still do good orchestrial sounds, but they could be better. One thing I hate about Korgs is the keys! They have the worst key feel of any board ive felt, the are weak, and compress with no effort, almost making velocity useless. However they are built solidly. From personal opinion I rather dislike the OS, its rather confusing, kind of hard to exsplain, its best for you to try one out.

I know you have your eyes set on these boards but id strongly reccomend the Fantom-X series. I have a Fantom-S on the way myself Everything that the others fail in the Fantom surpasses. The Key-feel is fantastic, synth and pad sounds are unsurpassed, highly acclaimed studio accoustic grand, incredible OS, color screen 128 mb wave rom (exspandable to 640!!!) and exspandable sampling memory. Im only basing this little review on the times ive spent playing with it at GC, i will be able to provide more insight when I get mine.

Good luck with whatever you choose I hope I was able to help ya. With any of these fantastic boards you wont be disapointed! Im way jealious you get the opportunity to get one of these suckers

Phil

[This message has been edited by Pennywizz6 (edited 03-25-2005).]

Hi Sheriff!
As a former K2000 and K2500 owner I can only confirm. Even though I have spent lots of time complaining about Kurzwell’s reliability and odd power related problems (LFOs slowing down, patch storage corruption, unit not responding to program changes properly etc) I have to agree with you a hundred percent. They are indeed a good investment. Both as synthesizers and samplers.

Regarding your uncertainty on wether the software instruments reach toward the possibilities of hardware instruments or not:
Even though you may realize this already, it all depends on what you mean by possibilities.

If we are speaking about sampling, than the software is far ahead. It allows you to load and store samples faster, process them in almost any way that you want and pretty much load as many samples as your computer can handle. Another major advantage is that the software instruments stream wav (or many other types of audio files) directly from a hard disc, so they do not require 10 gigs of RAM to load 10 gigs of sounds. A few workstations capable of streaming audio directly from the hard drive use that feature for hard disc recording, but not sampling. So sadly, if anyone tries to load a 1.5 gigabyte piano sound on their Triton, Motif or Phantom, they are pretty much screwed. A plug-in like “Ivory” will do it on a fly on a 400-600 (and higher) machine. PC or Mac, whatever. They’ll handle it better then any hardware workstation.

Speaking of synthesis and versatility of different software instruments in that respect will take at least a two hundred page essay that I am not willing to write unless somebody pays me to. LOL
But just to summarize that unexisting essay, I have to point out the obvious. Software synths not only provide any form of synthesis that ever existed, but they often take it further. Such is the case with soft instruments like FM7, Pro 53, CS80 V, Moog Modular V, Minimoog V, Oddity, Absynth, Ultra Focus, Ultra Analog etc.

Using a totally different engine, the emulations surely lack some of the tone characteristics of the original analog, wavetable, FM synths etc ; in return they provide tone qualities and features that make them more useful in a context of today’s styles of music and certain expectations as far as sound is concerned.

As I have pointed out before, the little differences in tone are something that most users are not necessarily aware of. As far as 80 percent of users are concerned, they are playing the Minimoog when they use Arturia’s Minimoog V and the Odyssey when they use Gmedia’s Oddity.

Honoring the habbit of having agreed with you so many times I have to yet again do the same. Yes, it is always good to mix hardware and software instruments. Especially if you have understanding and awareness of their differences. That way you are able to create the right context for both to be used at their best.

Surely this also applies to the hardware workstations of today. There are environments and contexts where their use is absolutely indispensable. My studio is just one of those environments.

Dave(AKA Hauschild),

You were pretty accurate in your observation. The Motif synths are more in demand. For a good reason too.
They deliver a lot for the money. My ES8 with its weighted piano action keyboard and external controls makes an ideal master controller in my studio. I am also a piano player so I prefer the heavy and slow key action as in oppose to the light and semi-weighted feel found on Roland and Korg 88 note workstations.
Its external controls allow for easy real time control and editing of the software instruments as well as real time control of the parameters of audio tracks.

As a synth the Motif is very versatile. Even without the plug-in boards added it is a state of the art synth. Using its features I was able to create pretty convincing emulations of some of my favorite synths like the Wavestation, O1/W, Waldorf Microwave, E-mu Morpheus, Roland’s JD800, D50, JX3P, Yamaha CS80, DX7, FS1R and the list goes on.

SO as a synth junkie, a programmer and a producer I strongly disagree with anyone who claims that the Motif is only good for orchestral sounds. Either they haven’t explored the Motif as a synthesizer or we are talking about different things.

As I said before, with the plug-in boards added it is a monster instrument. Mine is expanded with AN1x Analog modeling board (that models analog and analog modular synths and allows for some really complex programming and is capable of making some really convincing analog textures), DX board (which adds good old FM synthesis as we know it and love it) and a VL Phisical Acoustic modeling board (which uses Physical modeling to generate very realistic acoustic sounds and some unusual and complex synth sounds as well). I use both BC (breath controller) and a WX (A controller that resembles a wind instrument) to control the sounds on the VL board and the results are just amazing.

Something like Roland Phantom is limited to only sample playback synthesis. It is not at all capable of producing sounds that the Motif can. Korg’s equivalent of analog and acoustic modeling is quite interesting and allows for some really creative programming but it is somewhat limited comparing to VL and N1x synth engines.

Since you are planning to explore the software side of things I recommended an S90. Think of an S90 as a Motif ES 8 but without certain features. Features that you will not miss if you will have a decent audio card and a good audio/sequencer software like Cubase SX, or Sonar.
In fact most Pros go for the S90 for that very reason. They do not need an on-board sequencer, on-board sampling and other bells and whistles that are better done with software.


You have mentioned that you are a piano player on a few occasions so I naturally assumed that the weighted keys will suit your needs best. SO that leaves out the Phantom, Phantom X, Motif ES6 and ES7. simply because they use light plastic keys.

The Roland Phantom 88 (or whatever the 88 note Phantom workstation is called) uses semi-weighted fast action keys. They do not match my style of playing as a piano player ). They do not really match my style of playing as a synth and organ player (for that I use controllers with light action.
Of coarse it is very individual. So obviously you will need to make that choice for yourself.

Even if you decide that Phantom is right for you (sound wise and keyboard wise) it will be the right choice for you. The reason why I am pushing the software side of things is because it costs less and delivers more in a long run. The only things you will need to update will be the software itself. Eventually you will need to replace your computer too , but we all have to do it anyway. Something like an S90 or a Phantom (or any other decent workstation-controller) will last you for as long as USB and MIDI will be around.

ED,

You are the man!!! I appreciate your thoughtful responses to my questions. It really helps understand the not-so-obvious.

I have another question that I thought about the other day. I am currently on the road in Mexico for a few weeks and I won't be able to actually get to any stores to find out for myself the following question:

In addition to piano, I really enjoy messing around with the vintage synth sound such as the sound you hear in Van Halen's "I'll Wait", or Whitesnakes "Here I Go Again", etc. Now, hopefully I can explain this properly.....if I go with a weighted keyboard, do these types of boards affect the blending of notes together such as what I currently do with my Kawai K3?

To be more specific, with my K3 when using certain types of sounds, I am able to slide my fingers on the keys and make notes sound blended...you can't hear any type of note interrupt. Does this make any sense? If so, would a weighted keyboard affect my ability to play in this manner?

I hope I don't sound like a dumb-ass with this question, but I have a feeling a weighted keyboard may affect some types of music I will want to play.

Thanks guys!

Okay,
They seem like very different songs. The Van Halen one has a classic 70's-80's brassy arpeggio-type lead with some chords in between. I can play that kind of stuff on any keyboard. It makes no difference if its weighted or not.

Now, the other track by Whitesnake has very different type of sound (very digital in nature. ALmost D50 like). The only fast leads in that track were guitar leads. The synth stuff was pretty slow and straight forward.

I am now a bit confused as to what you meant by the notes blending together. Originally I thought that you were talking about B3 type organ leads. After that I thought that you meant brassy Van Halen OB-x type stuff. Having Heard the track by Whitesnake it appears that you could be talking about layering.

Wich brings me to my main point. WHatever I heard in the two songs that you've mentioned can be played on ES8 or S90 without a problem.

My main concern is that you have mentioned being used to playing K3, which has very light keys. I must warn you that the conversion from light to heavy weighted hammer action will take some getting used to.

The only thing that you will not be able to play on the weighted action keyboard of your choice is classic B3 organ leads. Swiping and sweeping up and down a weighted action board can hurt.
I use my DX7 as a controller when I do that.

FOr the type of music and sounds that you are after an S90 wil be ideal. THe PHantom will do nicely as well, but mostly with DIgital type synth stuff and acoustic samples. Unlike the Triton or MOtif it lacks an analog modeling engine so needed for accurate analog emulations.
That's why an S90 expanded with AN1x sounds like a good solution to this delema.

But hey, by the same token a Phantom X with somehthing like the Nord Lead, Novation's Nova or Korg MS2000 doesn't sound bad either.

I'm sure you'll make the right choice.
Good luck.

Regards,

-ED-

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 03-28-2005).]

ED,

Again, thanks for your input. I think I'm just gonna have to spend some time messing around with the Triton, ES and S90. I'm not sure Sam Ash had an S90 on display, but then again at the time I don't think I played any of the synths with weighted keys.

You mentioned that the S90 would be an ideal controller, as would the ES. What will be the limiiations of using the Triton as a controller, if any? I don't want to go in any direction that limits what I might want to experiment with down the line.

Also, to add more to my "blending" theory, I think a better example to use would have been the instrumental 1984 by Van Halen. I'm sure a lot was done in the studio to get that effect, but I can reproduce the sound fairly well on my K3.

I'll bet you can't wait for me to make a decision, huh? It might sound corny, but I find the research mode of a pre-purchase to be awfully intriquing, ya know?

At any rate, as soon as I'm back in the states, I'm going into research-overdrive, baby!!!

The only downside of using a Triton as a controller and your main workstation is it's front end user interface and Operating system. The two are not congruent. It's as if they were designed by different teams and than put together at the last minute.
IN overall the mixture of the two results in some very confusing crap, that can slow down the creative process. For example, the FX setup in the sequencer mode needs to be setup from scratch every time you will want to create a new multitimbral arrangment (song). You will of coarse be able to store that setup when you save the song. BUt the process of figuring out all the routing, buses and algorythm matrixes will kind of take time to get around.

Roland and Yamaha allow you to setup the FX in the Multi (or sequencer) modes inn such a way that the FX used with certain patches will be called up automatically.

Again, this is a really small example. It doesn't affect Triton's performance as a controller.
Its keys do though. As it was pointed out by one of the guys, it has a really crappy keyboard feel. Very light and plasticy. Bad for pianos, bad for orchestral stuff ; good for organ and synth leads though.
I wasn't that impressed with its external controls either. Definite cut back on the quality of hardware. ALthough

I've owned a ton of Korg workstations and just at around 1997 or so I noticed that they were beginning to use cheaper hardware components. First I kind of didn't pay much attention ; having checked out the first Triton when it came out confirmed my suspicions. Comparing to the Trinity and even older O1/W it was a heavy, bizarre beast with odd problems. Mind you the
Trinity was no feather either but at least it felt like it was worth a few grand when I played it. Z-1 was another bastard child. Heavy, sluggish and full of bizarre and confusing limitations. Sounded great though.

Again, just because the Z1 and the first Triton were that way doesn't at all mean that the new Tritons are that way as well. I'm sure Korg have fixed old bugs and added a whole bunch of new problems!

regards,

-ED-

ED,

I am going out on a limb and assuming if it were your money, you would steer clear of the Triton, and focus on the S90, the ES series or Roland Phantom series.

I don't have a problem with this at all. I just became a bit giddy when I researched what I could buy a Triton for on ebay, which put Korg first on my list as a result.

At this point, it would appear that the S90 is first on my list, although I am going to have to find a store that has one on display so I can get a feel for the weighted key action of the board.

The new price for an S90 is around 2k. What would be considered a reasonable price to pay for a used S90 on, say, ebay?

Thanks!

ED,

I found an ES8 for sale. Would you be at all suspicious about a brand new, still in-the-box Motif ES8 selling for 1700 bucks??? It seems too good to be true. Any thoughts?

I promise I won't ask you anymore of these types of questions, but you've probably seen 'em all by now and I was curious about what this board should actually sell for.

Thanks.

That does seem too good to be true, what type of seller is he? payment method? history? return policy?

Phil

Yes, this deal does sound suspicious.
I don't trust eBay. Especially when I see deals like this one.

You were correct again. If it were my money I'd get the S90 or the Motif)ES if possible) and may be the Phantom (although the Phantom would not be my number one choice). But the money is yours, and so is the decision.

If I were you I'd wait 'til I get a chance to actually play a few workstations and compare. You never know, you might like the Triton. Some people do.
You might hate it. I do.

SO really, 'til you've tryed there is no point in trying to decide.

TO answer your other question, a used S90 doesn't go for much less than the new one. They seem to hold their value.
You might find them for less on eBAY but unless you are prepaired to lose some money and time (I'm not saying that you will have to, but it's good to be prepaired.) don't shop there.

-ED-

I wouldn't trust it at all. I am not very trusting of a lot of the stuff on Ebay either.



I wouldn't say the synth sounds suck, but you're not going to get true and fat analog sounds out of it. I think that of any workstation btw, Korg, Yamaha, Roland.., although I think Triton gets closer.. but still it's a rompler.

You can add the AN150 analog modeling board to the Motif or Motif ES ( I think the S90 as well ). It's an analog emulator that has some excellent sounds on board, and it exchanges patches with the hardware Yamaha AN1x and AN200 synths. There are a ton of good ones available. The AN 150 is pretty much a Sequential Circuits Prophet 5 emulator, ( great older classic analog ) and it stacks up well vs NI's Pro 53 emulation.

The AN150 does have a few downsides. In the Motif, you cannot access all of the editing parameters, although you can access the basics + . In order to do any serious editing, you need to use a software editor. Also, the presets don't always interact with the Motif's effect processors, so I had to edit and add effects and then save them as user vooices. Still, the thing sounds great inside the Motif.

I'm also a software fan. There are so many good virtual analogs out there now that it's hard to choose and my wallet is getting a little thin.. lol. I don't mind much though. I always wanted a Yamaha CS80. 25 years or so ago it cost around $7,000 USd.

Today I have it in my computer ( virtually of course ), along with so many other great Vsti's, and still, I spent nowhere near that kind of money for all of it, computer and controller included.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-30-2005).]

@ED
Thanks for your agreements!

@Theme: weighted keyboards
Light or heavy weighted kb - that's the question (a little bit of W.Shakespear)...
I'm not a keyboard player at first. I'm a guitar player. Nevertheless I have to confirm with that what ED said - it's not easy to change between these two kinds of keyboards. After playing a longer time on a light weighted kb I couldn't get any correct tune out of a real piano (Steinway). I was laughing out loud but I really couldn't hear any tune...hahaha. I couldn't believe it but it seemed to me that my hands were to weak for playing...*lol*

@hauschild
You talked about your Kawai K3. Are you still playing with it? I know that the K1 had have some fine colours even a great orchester hit. Let us assume I'm allowed to give you a tip I'd advise you to keep your 'little' K3. You could use it as a second kb for controlling sounds like organ, strings, choirs and so on...
For piano and other hammer action sounds try to get your heavy weighted 88 keys with that weight you need to feel good. Check it out in a music dealer's shop! There's no better way to do it! Try it again and again until you're shure what you want/love!!! Don't let you making nervous by the dealer's finger tippings and lousy frozzlings...

It's only a humble opinion...
Good luck for your choice!


------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

Sherrif,

I really like my litle K3, but because it only has like 5 or 6 voices of polyphony, doesn't this limit me using it as a controller?

Don’t worry about K3’s internal voices and polyphony. It does not at all affect it’s performance as a MIDI controller.
Since Sheriff already made a suggestion, may I join him and also offer a suggestion of my own. You said that you will have quite a bit of time before actually being able to play with any workstation and make your decision. Meanwhile, do not put that time to waiste and familiarize yourself with some basics about MIDI and how it works. It will definitely help you when you will start getting into using workstations and software synths.

-ED-

ED,

You're right about me boning-up on my MIDI! I found a cool site, tweakheadz.com that is really gonna help me out with MIDI, etc.

I can't believe the polyphony doesn't affect anything with MIDI??? Damn, years ago(around 1997), when I first purchased the K3, I also got a copy of Cakewalk Pro, along with a MIDI cable to hook up between my computer and K3.

The problem I ran into was that I couldn't get more than 5 notes' worth of sound to record onto a track at once. I remember I was very disappointed so I phoned the K3 support staff and they told me the reason for this was the limited polyphony of the K3.

At that point, I didn't do any further research and basically never investigated the matter in any more detail. But, you guys are telling me I can simply load something like Ilio's Ivory - Grand Pianos on my computer and I'm golden with my little K3??? What else do I need besides the software, cable, computer and K3...if it's gonna take to much time to explain, don't worry about it...I'm just blown away that I can use my 200 dollar K3 as a controller???

Guys, I really appreciate your patience, so don't be afraid to let me have it if I'm getting irritating. You see, when I ask you guys questions, I try to imagine myself waiting in the line of the Soup Nazi from Seinfeld. I want to ask the questions, but I don't wanna piss any of you off to the point where any time you'd see my name on a post, you'd run for the hills!

Thanks!

It seems to be an happy ending...
You've saved much money. Now you're able to invest in tons of sound abilities...


------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

hauschild,

First off, I'm happy to be able to share what I have been able to learn, and much of it is because of the internet. To put it another way, I've been playing for well over 35 years, but in the last 5 or so I've learned far more about keys and synths than I did the previous 30.

If you are going the software route, you'll need midi cables and something on the computer end that that will accept midi. If you have a soundblaster card with a joystick port, you simply need a cable with 2 midi plugs on one end and a qameport plug on the other. If not, you need a midi interface or a soundcard with midi ports.

Something like M Audio's Audiophile, which is a 24 bit 96 khz card can be had for around 100 USd or so.

You need host software. Cubase, Sonar, etc. If for now you don't want to invest that kind of money, there are a number of decent freeware host apps available. You can find some at http://www.kvraudio.com You could also use a standalone VST rack, such as Xlutop Chainer. There are also a few decent freeware standalone vst racks, such as TobyBear's Mini Host and VstHost

While your there, check out the freeware synths and modules too. There are over 400, and while many aren't top of the line, there are quite a few that are. Some are actually quite good... Crystal, Synth 1, Polyiblit, Superwave P8, And the "killer" series, to name a few.


There are also some good freeware effects. I recommend the kjaerhus series. These are a good way to "get your feet wet" and allow you to see how you like working with software. Also, you might be surprised at how a few effects can bring some of the freeware synths to life.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-30-2005).]

NE 1 smell a rat here, or do the pics pan????
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=38091&item=7312092080&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

That's definitely a Motif ES, and I'd almost be tempted, as Rhinebeck is less than two hours away from me, but there is an ES6 already about 3 feet away from this computer..lol

I just thought I'd chime in hear. I own both an S90 and an ES7. I love them both. I think the S90 is the best value for the money when it comes to needing a fully weighted synth (not a stage piano). S90's action is balanced, not graded. Which is recommended if the board is to be used for more than just piano sounds. To my ears also, the Motif/S90 sound set is the best. I like more buttons and sliders so I didn't like the Rolands and Korgs.
I was using a Roland XP-80 with a Roland XV-2020, which is a very good combo but I wanted meatier keys and better organ sounds, I sold that stuff and went with an ES7. I am now considering a Motif rack (maybe a used Mo' classic rack to save some bucks) to be more portable when going to do studio work, just because I like to Mo sounds so much.
I think the ES7 is the best synthweighted board for all around use. With my combo, S90 and ES7 and the expandability of both, the onboard seq. in the ES7 and sampling capability, I am completely capable of producing just about anything remarably close. I also purchased the B's Knees and Vintage Keys libraries from motifator.com and this really enhanced my sound set.

I am also considering the DX plug card to add FM synthesis but I just don't need that right now.

But having said all that, I know there are guys that just love Tritons or Roland Fantoms. I'm simply very satisfied with Yamaha's motif line. Not to mention the mLan options (even though I've not yet dived into that area).

I will say though... I was very impressed with the Kurzwiel's PC2 boards (88 and 76). The 88 key version is the one I've used before. It's got great sounds, great controller ability and feels great. Expansion is limited though. Between a PC2X and an S90... well, you know which way I went.


Best wishes.
Peace
Bob
<><

Bob,

Thanks! I haven't really even considered a Kurzweil, but it looks like I should throw it on my growing list of boards to play because one never knows, ya know???

Right now, I'd say the ES8/S90 are my two frontrunners. I'm still on a project here in Mexico, but as soon as I am back in the states, it's gonna be balls to the wall, men!!!

Again thanks to all!

Perhaps you're refering to what is called portamento I think. Where the synth (I don't know how it's actually done, perhaps with some CC data) will slide the pitch up to the note play as opposed to stepping directly to it.

For example If a play middle C then G above middle C, normally you wil hear two distinct notes. But with portamento turned on, after I play the C then the G, the sound will actually and smoothly slide up to the G like a whistle can do. This is a nice effect on some sounds. Lucky Man by ELP comes to mind. I don't have a copy of the White Snake song.

Most synths have portamento. The S90 and ES7 do.


Hope this helps.
Bob
<><


I just aded this note after posting...
I just looked at your above question in another perspective.

You said
"notes sound blended...you can't hear any type of note interrupt."

I'm thinking now maybe you mean the tiny bit of sustain between notes? If so that is a parameter called "release" and it is generally an editable parameter on all synths. Meaning the notes sound lingers for a specified length of time before dying out. For most sounds (especially piano), this is set very small so that the sound stops when your fingers come off the keys. It is sometimes set to a greater value for pads and strings. If this is what you meant, as I said it should be a standard parameter option on any board you buy.

Peace
Bob
<><

[This message has been edited by RW (edited 04-01-2005).]

[This message has been edited by RW (edited 04-01-2005).]

I need some guidance here men. I have found a yamaha es8, brand new, for $1800. Now, I am a bit leary, but read the reply email from the seller and see if you see any red flags:

"I am located in Chicago, Il and I will ship the keyboard from here. I benefit from a discount at yamaha for my services and I got some keyboards cheaper on this deal. I didn't even pick up them from the warehouse so I could make out the warranty on whatever name I have to.
We will use escrow.com for security and I don't think that there is anything better we could use."

Do you think they're stolen, or anything??? Thanks.

Dave

I don't know how escrow.com works. If it protects your money until you are satisfied, than it might be worth it.

1800 is a great price on an ES8. Are you far from Chigago? It might be worth it to pick it up. That way you can examine the board before buying.

I didn't see any red flags in the guy's email. But to be honest, with an investment of nearly 2k , I'd prefer to deal with a reputable dealer. A known music store. Some place I can go back to and get some support if trouble ever occurs. Even if they just help you contact Yamaha and send your board out for you. Something ya know? Now if it was few hundred on a used board...I'm much more likely to chance it.

Even if the deal is on the up and up (which you don't 100% know), I'd still stick with a reputable dealer near me.

Best wishes
Bob
<><

[This message has been edited by RW (edited 04-07-2005).]

[This message has been edited by RW (edited 04-07-2005).]

Guys,

I'm gonna go ahead and give it a shot. I actually got the price down to $1700, so it's almost half the price of a new ES8.

I am guessing I will take possession by the middle to end of next week.

If it works out, I'll need to buy ya'll a beer, 'cause I initally was gonna purchase a Korg Triton le, which is fine if you're like, 8 years old, but, ya know???

So hopefully the next time you hear from me, I'll have good news.

Guys,

Belay my last. I've been doing some diligent investigating and I think this is a scam.

I'll keep ya'll posted.

Dave

Guys,

This was a scam; albeit a good one at that.

I almost bit, but escrow.com had just posted a warning on its website it never uses an "escrow.com agent", which is what the perpetrator had me sending the payment to.

So, in growing very tired of this online auction crap trying to get a steal, I just got back from Sam Ash. I offered a sales rep 2k for the Yamaha ES7 and his manager accepted, so I now have an ES7 sitting in my living room.

I did play around with the S90 and es8, but I had to be honest with myself and admit that over the years, I've grown very accustomed to non-weighted keyboards. This was the main reason for my decision to go with the es7.

Supposedly, the price I received was 4 percent above cost, so you guys can do the math, which may help if you ever do business at Sam Ash music stores. Although, he could have just as easily been full of beans, 'cause why would he possibly want me to know that figure??? He'd be losing much leverage in future sales, I would think.

Anyhow, thanks to all of you for your help in my search. I appreciate all the help. If anyone knows of any quick tutorials for the es7, don't hesitate to reply.

Dave

Hey Dave,

Congratulations. The ES7 is definitely the best synth for the money.
Now it is just a matter of visiting http://www.motifator.com/

"…and so it begins…"

-ED-

Congrats Dave. I own and ES7 myself. I'll admit, right now it's more than I can hanlde, but when I'm ready to tap into the beast, it'll be ready for me. I use it live for now. I play with a Christian artist, Mike Wells. He already has a piano player so I used the ES7 for B3 organs, pads and strings. I've also used the "upright bass" for a few tunes. The board kicks butler man. You might also find http://www.sninety.com useful. There's common ground between the ES7 and S90.

I also recommend two voice libraries from motifator.com 1) B's Knees and 2) Vintage Keys. I have both and they are loaded with great vintage sounds, if you're into that sort of thing that is.

One other thing, the plug in boards are a great way to expand the ES7. I had for a time the DX plug in board in my S90. I wanted to do some FM programming, but I never had the time, and when I was wanted to upgrade from my Roland XP-80 to the ES7, I needed some dough so I sold the DX plug board. I hope to replace it some day.

You'll need a smart media card to store sequences and DIMM cards for sampler memory.

I also recommend the Yamaha FC7 foot controller.

Peace
Bob
<><



[This message has been edited by RW (edited 04-11-2005).]

Bob,

The es7 is a beast, for sure!

I brought it home around 1 pm on Saturday, and basically just stared at the box, kinda scared to bust it out. Later that evening, I broke it out and after messing around for an hour, was amazed at the power and flexibility of this synth.

When I was a youngster, I used to watch all the 80's videos and always dreamed of getting the DX-7. I think it cost around 1500 bucks back then, which was an unattainable feat for a 15 year old.

Well, it's taken all of 20 years, but I've got a synth light years ahead of the DX-7, plus I can always put in that board if I want to get Howard Jones-ey.

Just think what it'll be like 20 years from now?!?!?

Dave

Guys,

I've got a fairly beefy laptop, Dell Inspiron 9100, gig ram and ATI Mobility Radeon 9700, but lacking sound-wise.

I've installed Cakewalk Sonar 4.0 Producer's Edition. When the program loads, I get an error about selecting a MIDI output device. The only one listed is Microsoft MIDI Mapper.

I am guessing I will need to purchase an external soundcard in order to use Sonar. If so, I'd appreciate some suggestions on sound cards.

Thanks!

Dave

I currently own both the ROLAND FANTOM X and the YAMAHA MOTIF.

THE MOTIF IS WAY BETTER. Hands down better synth...the sequencer is much easier to use then the Fantom X, and the sounds are way better... what really matters is the sounds are way better on the Motif, the yamaha team was much wiser with their effects on the tones, and volume dynamics of the instruments...I did a test on the two boards, and mixed the same sound down with the same volume levels, the motif sound was SPARKLING, in your face volume and dynamics, while the roland sounded very tinnny and midi like...same as the korg.

Anyways, hope this helps, I still own the fantom becuase it has many good arpegios and stuff, and the horns are very good...but if you looking for a very non-frustrating board to work with, its the motif, -- you can get up and running in no time...trust me if you are producing professionally, you dont want to do it all on the board itself, thats what the fantom x claim to fame is, its all on the board, but its still too limiting for professional songs...you need to transfer it to your compyter for mastering at some point...and thats why i found the Fantom X to be overkill...and the sounds arent nearly as good compared to the motifs...

Irie styles